Stealth + Proximity Detonation needs attention (screenshot proof)

MishMash

I personally think every class has its ability to be hard hitters. It just takes time to figure out what works best for you. I can hear a Nightblade using cloak so I know when one is around. I wear a headset while playing so maybe that is why I can hear them IDK. In IC I keep my buffs up as much as I can so when I am ganked I have a chance.

Solariken

Crown wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Kr3do wrote: »

Its a massive red circle arround the enemy? Why dont you just block?

You serious? This happened in IC, and it was a skilled nightblade who specializes in 1-second kills. If you PvP at all, you know that the red circle appears when the ability is cast but does NOT move with the nightblade after he uses Cloak. So a NB with half a brain will cast it in the hallway, cloak, and run into your room and burst you for 3 times your health pool. Don't act like this is acceptable, because it's not.

That was not a 1 second kill. Look at what you took from damage, there are at least three casts with repositioning time between them. Unless you stood still and let him kill you (in which case it's your own fault), there were at best 3.5 seconds and at worst 4.5 seconds of fighting. Based on your death recap, this is what thappened:

1. Nightblade cast proxy and then immediately stealthed.
2. Nightblade cast Lotus Fan, and you for hit for 1,601 damage - it may have been more and this number is simply one of the DoT ticks.
3. Nightblade cast Concealed weapon, and you got hit for 5,703 damage
4. Nightblade cast Soul Harvest and you got hit for 5,054 damage
5. Nightblade's Proxy went off after the soul harvest, so it got a 20 % buff to damage and you got hit for 9,708 damage. If this hadn't happened after the ultimate, it would have been 7,766 damage.
6. Nightblade cast Concealed weapon, which was also buffed for 20% extra damage from the ultimate, and you got hit for 6,842 damage.

In summary, there were two casts prior to damage starting (proxy and lotus fan), then three cast over what was probably about three and a half seconds for you to die.

Based on the charts I've made of my own proxy detonation damage caused and received, and the impen/resistant numbers, I guesstimate that the person who hit you is running a 60%+ crit build (Julianos / Mage Light / NB Bonus), probably used a pot to bring tha tup to 80% ish, and your crit-mitigation level is rather low (likely 10-15%).

A 3.5 second kill on a target from a magicka Nightblade is very reasonable. Much longer than any stamina build sitting in stealth with a camo hunter -> heavy attack - > snipe which can each proc for more than the proxy, and kill you in 2.2 seconds (average for a good bow kill from stealth). It's also longer than any stamina build sitting in stealth with a camo hunter -> wrecking blow -> wrecking blow -> executioner, which is a 2.4 second kill if done well.

Magicka NBs will open with Lotus Fan or Concealed weapon. If lotus fan, as soon as you see the animation for soul harvest (which they will do to get 20% increased damage on proxy) you have to block for about 1.5 seconds, so just block cast your next spell. If they open with concealed weapon for the stun, then you need to break free and roll through them. It will take them 3/4 of a second to reposition, and by then you should have initiated your own counter damage routine. Magicka NBs are squishy, and if you can get a cc off, then most will retreat and try again later.

ZOS have already stated that the detonation skills will have reduced damage to single targets, and *possibly* increased damage to more targets, so your wish will be granted.

If this is indeed a serious thread about the amount of damage taken from one hit, then I expect to see you raging about "nerf snipe", "nerf heavy attacks", "nerf wrecking blow", and a few others very soon..

I didn't say mine was a 1-second death, only that this particular NB is built specifically for 1-second burst kills. He's a constant annoyance down there, but this one particularly irked me.

But @Crown, you are missing the important part of his rotation: FEAR. Any good NB is able to get this full rotation off without resistance if they open from stealth without their target being aware of their presence: Lotus Fan > CW > FEAR > Soul Harvest > Proxy > CW.

They get the WHOLE rotation, there is no counter.

EDIT: RNG would have been my only saving grace - if Shuffle had dodged any of these hits I might have turned the fight around.

Ashamray

Solariken wrote: »

Ashamray wrote: »

9.7 k every (it was crit, btw) 8 seconds. Lol.
Lol.
.

It's not used for sustained DPS, it's used for burst. You trolling bro?

It's a predictable burst. Many things can go wrong: sorc can streak away, NB can shade away, others can just press block. For this reason you can complain about Dawnbreaker of Smiting. It kills people much more often, when is used in right time. Or you can blame Dragon Leap as well - this *** is very powerful and hard to counter.
Arrr, burst is supposed to kill people. I have no clue why you want nerf Dex in our realities despite of the fact that its burst single-target damage is lower and less deadly then sustained spammable damage of SA or WB.

tplink3r1

Lore_lai wrote: »

tplink3r1 wrote: »

Lore_lai wrote: »

D0ntevenL1ft wrote: »

Lore_lai wrote: »

So explain to me why magicka classes shouldn't have access to hard-hitting skills like stam classes do? Hrmm?

I wish stamina had a skill i can toss on and forget about for free dps while i cast other skills

"Free" DPS? You do know that it costs magicka to cast it yeah?

Just because it's delayed hit and you can time it with other skill doesn't mean it's free.
It even has a freakin red circle around it so you know exactly what the radius is. Not the same thing can be said about Wrecking Blow which is notoriously vague with its hitbox, especially when clipped with a heavy attack.

Not to mention WB cc can be so buggy. Oh wait - Proxi doesn't even have a CC.

Or should I mention those bow heavies?

It's funny though - stamina classes wanting moar damage.

Just spin2win, man, just spin2win. Now you have the axe bleed on top of the execute too

If you have magicka problems you are doing something wrong.

Wut? o.O How on Earth you came to that conclusion from what I wrote is beyond me.
But if what you're hinting at is that mag is on par with stam damage wise in PvP then I think you need to change your skooma dealer.
And pls don't list overall tooltips - look at the whole picture - much easier to get spellresist, CP system mitigation, harness magicka etc.

""Free" DPS? You do know that it costs magicka to cast it yeah?"
If you don't have problems with magicka then its free, don't lie.
But why are you telling me all that? I didn't even say magicka det is OP kid, lol.

Solariken

Ashamray wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Ashamray wrote: »

9.7 k every (it was crit, btw) 8 seconds. Lol.
Lol.
.

It's not used for sustained DPS, it's used for burst. You trolling bro?

It's a predictable burst. Many things can go wrong: sorc can streak away, NB can shade away, others can just press block. For this reason you can complain about Dawnbreaker of Smiting. It kills people much more often, when is used in right time. Or you can blame Dragon Leap as well - this *** is very powerful and hard to counter.
Arrr, burst is supposed to kill people. I have no clue why you want nerf Dex in our realities despite of the fact that its burst single-target damage is lower and less deadly then sustained spammable damage of SA or WB.

I don't mind Proxy at all when other classes use it. It has plenty of counters and luck built in for the other classes. Let's not pretend, though, that Nightblades don't have every advantage with this skill. All they have to do is wait in stealth until the timer hits ~3s and they are guaranteed to blow up their target without fear of being countered.

Docmandu

Soris wrote: »

So 9.7k detonation is super op but the 6.8k concealed weapon is not??!! One is a time bomb you place on yourself in every 6 secs, the other is highly spamable ability that can be used with animation cancelling for more damage.

The main issue is the 2 combined, which you won't see coming.. because.. lol stealth..

Crown

Incidentally, a much better magicka NB shorter kill would be:

1. Cast proxy detonation and wait 2.5 seconds (stealth while waiting)
2. Cast a Spell Symmetry for the empower (20% damage buff)
3. Stealth and move to the target
4. Cast Soul Tether for the stun and DoT (empowered) for about 12k damage
5. Proxy goes off for about 8k damage
6. Light attack weave for about 2k damage
7. Cast concealed weapon for about 6k damage
8. The DoT from Soul Tether will have ticked by now too

The time from the Soul Tether hitting (start of damage) from stealth to when the concealed weapon (or DoT) kills the target is close to 1.8 seconds if done right.

Lore_lai

tplink3r1 wrote: »

Lore_lai wrote: »

tplink3r1 wrote: »

Lore_lai wrote: »

D0ntevenL1ft wrote: »

Lore_lai wrote: »

So explain to me why magicka classes shouldn't have access to hard-hitting skills like stam classes do? Hrmm?

I wish stamina had a skill i can toss on and forget about for free dps while i cast other skills

"Free" DPS? You do know that it costs magicka to cast it yeah?

Just because it's delayed hit and you can time it with other skill doesn't mean it's free.
It even has a freakin red circle around it so you know exactly what the radius is. Not the same thing can be said about Wrecking Blow which is notoriously vague with its hitbox, especially when clipped with a heavy attack.

Not to mention WB cc can be so buggy. Oh wait - Proxi doesn't even have a CC.

Or should I mention those bow heavies?

It's funny though - stamina classes wanting moar damage.

Just spin2win, man, just spin2win. Now you have the axe bleed on top of the execute too

If you have magicka problems you are doing something wrong.

Wut? o.O How on Earth you came to that conclusion from what I wrote is beyond me.
But if what you're hinting at is that mag is on par with stam damage wise in PvP then I think you need to change your skooma dealer.
And pls don't list overall tooltips - look at the whole picture - much easier to get spellresist, CP system mitigation, harness magicka etc.

""Free" DPS? You do know that it costs magicka to cast it yeah?"
If you don't have problems with magicka then its free, don't lie.
But why are you telling me all that? I didn't even say magicka det is OP kid, lol.

Dat logic though...

Ashamray

Solariken wrote: »

Ashamray wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Ashamray wrote: »

9.7 k every (it was crit, btw) 8 seconds. Lol.
Lol.
.

It's not used for sustained DPS, it's used for burst. You trolling bro?

It's a predictable burst. Many things can go wrong: sorc can streak away, NB can shade away, others can just press block. For this reason you can complain about Dawnbreaker of Smiting. It kills people much more often, when is used in right time. Or you can blame Dragon Leap as well - this *** is very powerful and hard to counter.
Arrr, burst is supposed to kill people. I have no clue why you want nerf Dex in our realities despite of the fact that its burst single-target damage is lower and less deadly then sustained spammable damage of SA or WB.

I don't mind Proxy at all when other classes use it. It has plenty of counters and luck built in for the other classes. Let's not pretend, though, that Nightblades don't have every advantage with this skill. All they have to do is wait in stealth until the timer hits ~3s and they are guaranteed to blow up their target without fear of being countered.

Buff Harness, push block and wait for coming. Or use detection. Or toss caltrops or spears. Really, NB is doing his plan, counting seconds for Teleport strike + Fear just before explosion to cancel your blocking - and he, wow, is rewarded for this! Though he maybe didn't Fear you, but reinforced explosion with Ultimate attack.
He just did his game well and reached purpose. Remember: many things could go wrong for him if you'd try to counter his stealthy burst.

Lava_Croft

Proximity Detonation has been a stupid broken skill since day one, but thankfully ZOS patches twice a year so it was fixed quickly.

Joy_Division

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Was your gear broken at the time?

Wouldn't have been a lot higher than 9k if that was the case?

Doubt it. Most people I crit with proxies generally do 6-7K. NPCs about 18K. OP either has no impen gear up, has invested little in the damage mitigation passives, or may have had their gear busted (it degrades quickly in the IC).

Solariken

Joy_Division wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Was your gear broken at the time?

Wouldn't have been a lot higher than 9k if that was the case?

Doubt it. Most people I crit with proxies generally do 6-7K. NPCs about 18K. OP either has no impen gear up, has invested little in the damage mitigation passives, or may have had their gear busted (it degrades quickly in the IC).

17.1k spell resist, 500 impen from gear, 10% hard CP magic mitigation, 5 CP in crit resist, full legendary v16 gear (not broken). It's hard to invest much more than that without gimping my offensive ability into uselessness. Still, those aren't chump stats.

Master_Kas

Derra wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Proxi was designed as a Zergbuster and now it is used as Single Target dmg skill, gg.

Even if they halve it´s current dmg it will be used as a singletarget ability because it´s precasted dmg...

It´s simply crappy designed and should never gotten it´s casttime removed.

This comment right here is the truth.


If they removed AoE caps and it had a better scaling on targets hit it would be a way better zergbuster I think.
Also I prefered the cast time + 4 sec until explosion over the version we have now.

In 1.6 it worked pretty decently to take out bigger groups (I know aoe caps was in place) but thanks to the high damage, groups of 5-6 melted by one proxy unless they was stacked on nirn.

Dredlord

Solariken wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Was your gear broken at the time?

Wouldn't have been a lot higher than 9k if that was the case?

Doubt it. Most people I crit with proxies generally do 6-7K. NPCs about 18K. OP either has no impen gear up, has invested little in the damage mitigation passives, or may have had their gear busted (it degrades quickly in the IC).

17.1k spell resist, 500 impen from gear, 10% hard CP magic mitigation, 5 CP in crit resist, full legendary v16 gear (not broken). It's hard to invest much more than that without gimping my offensive ability into uselessness. Still, those aren't chump stats.

Whaoh whaoh back off guys he's got 5 cp in crit resist...

KundaliniHero

revonine wrote: »

Unfortunately magic classes (except Sorc) rely on proxy det for comparable burst to stamina classes. We don't have a choice. It's the current crappy meta. It's still inferior to steel tornado in regards AOE.
Don't get me wrong I'm all for changing proxy into how it was intended to function it's gonna be interesting to see how magicka classes adjust. I'm hyped for my new zerg busting career lol.

What about Crystal Frags? Last time i checked that hits for over 10k.

Solariken

Dredlord wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Was your gear broken at the time?

Wouldn't have been a lot higher than 9k if that was the case?

Doubt it. Most people I crit with proxies generally do 6-7K. NPCs about 18K. OP either has no impen gear up, has invested little in the damage mitigation passives, or may have had their gear busted (it degrades quickly in the IC).

17.1k spell resist, 500 impen from gear, 10% hard CP magic mitigation, 5 CP in crit resist, full legendary v16 gear (not broken). It's hard to invest much more than that without gimping my offensive ability into uselessness. Still, those aren't chump stats.

Whaoh whaoh back off guys he's got 5 cp in crit resist...

Plus everything else I listed - go get your troll jollies off somewhere else.

CN_Daniel

OdinForge wrote: »

Yo. You got hit by a 9.7K prox det, and came to the forum asking for nerfs.

I can make my tool tip say 22k....hehe

catalyst10e

I've been hit harder with Dark Flare... I had one the other night do 13k damage, I wasnt even mad, I was impressed and had to message them to say so. My overload (if I actually use it) can hit harder, than that. The main issue people seem to have is with Magicka NB using them while cloaked or in stealth. Which is kinda annoying but it's not really any more annoying different than being hit with WB or spin2win. Honestly slotting harness magicka or some kind of CC like caltrops, or volcanic rune stops all that from the start.

Solariken

catalyst10e wrote: »

I've been hit harder with Dark Flare... I had one the other night do 13k damage, I wasnt even mad, I was impressed and had to message them to say so. My overload (if I actually use it) can hit harder, than that. The main issue people seem to have is with Magicka NB using them while cloaked or in stealth. Which is kinda annoying but it's not really any more annoying different than being hit with WB or spin2win. Honestly slotting harness magicka or some kind of CC like caltrops, or volcanic rune stops all that from the start.

Getting burst-killed isn't what I'm irked about. That happens sometimes. It's the stealth component that is BS. I just feel strongly that ZOS needs to re-work stealth gameplay. The ability to blow someone up from stealth without any warning is not good game design. Why do immature *** who don't enjoy an actual fight need access to so much power?

catalyst10e

Solariken wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

I've been hit harder with Dark Flare... I had one the other night do 13k damage, I wasnt even mad, I was impressed and had to message them to say so. My overload (if I actually use it) can hit harder, than that. The main issue people seem to have is with Magicka NB using them while cloaked or in stealth. Which is kinda annoying but it's not really any more annoying different than being hit with WB or spin2win. Honestly slotting harness magicka or some kind of CC like caltrops, or volcanic rune stops all that from the start.

Getting burst-killed isn't what I'm irked about. That happens sometimes. It's the stealth component that is BS. I just feel strongly that ZOS needs to re-work stealth gameplay. The ability to blow someone up from stealth without any warning is not good game design. Why do immature *** who don't enjoy an actual fight need access to so much power?

Oh I agree, that's more or less my point tho, the issue lies with Mag NB using it from stealth but the topic at hand is "Proximity Detonation needs nerfed BADLY" the proxy det isn't the problem, at the heart of everyone's argument is "its the stealth component"

Solariken

catalyst10e wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

I've been hit harder with Dark Flare... I had one the other night do 13k damage, I wasnt even mad, I was impressed and had to message them to say so. My overload (if I actually use it) can hit harder, than that. The main issue people seem to have is with Magicka NB using them while cloaked or in stealth. Which is kinda annoying but it's not really any more annoying different than being hit with WB or spin2win. Honestly slotting harness magicka or some kind of CC like caltrops, or volcanic rune stops all that from the start.

Getting burst-killed isn't what I'm irked about. That happens sometimes. It's the stealth component that is BS. I just feel strongly that ZOS needs to re-work stealth gameplay. The ability to blow someone up from stealth without any warning is not good game design. Why do immature *** who don't enjoy an actual fight need access to so much power?

Oh I agree, that's more or less my point tho, the issue lies with Mag NB using it from stealth but the topic at hand is "Proximity Detonation needs nerfed BADLY" the proxy det isn't the problem, at the heart of everyone's argument is "its the stealth component"

Fair enough - fixed it:

Stealth + Proximity Detonation needs nerfed BADLY (screenshot proof)

SneaK

Okay, since you changed the station, run detect pots, caltrops, any AOE, immovable, magelight, and still L2P.

RadioheadSh0t

Solariken wrote: »

Lore_lai wrote: »

OP you would have gotten ganked even if that NB didn't have proxi.

Possibly, but I would have been able to put up an actual fight without Prox Det. I roll with 27k health and I'm no scrub.

"A scrub thinks himself to be good, but a good player knows himself to be a scrub."

-William Shakespeare

At least that's how I think the quote goes...

DHale

Wow you are asking for nerfs to a 10 k damage dealer out of stealth...moan almost as much damage as wrecking blow or two steel tornados.... Almost. If I see another nerf thread I am going to vomit. It will be the ruin of this game. It is one of a very few skills that match Stam damage and you want it nerfed... Makes me sad.

K4RMA

maybe l2p?

Solariken

SneaK wrote: »

Okay, since you changed the station, run detect pots, caltrops, any AOE, immovable, magelight, and still L2P.

I run detect pots, Caltrops, and jabs. All of which are effective if you know may be about to fight a Nightblade. None of which are effective when you are jumped at random. Insane burst from stealth is not a L2P issue. I get so sick of hearing that phrase when it has no meaning in so many discussions.

Solariken

DHale wrote: »

Wow you are asking for nerfs to a 10 k damage dealer out of stealth...moan almost as much damage as wrecking blow or two steel tornados.... Almost. If I see another nerf thread I am going to vomit. It will be the ruin of this game. It is one of a very few skills that match Stam damage and you want it nerfed... Makes me sad.

I hate the burst meta as much as anyone, but I don't have any complaints about someone who uses Proxy in an open fight. It's the amount of burst that is possible from stealth that needs to be looked at.

Why do so many people defend the one-shot-Willies? That playstyle begets rage and severely limits the potential fun factor while creating a very negative player atmosphere overall.

SneaK

Solariken wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Okay, since you changed the station, run detect pots, caltrops, any AOE, immovable, magelight, and still L2P.

I run detect pots, Caltrops, and jabs. All of which are effective if you know may be about to fight a Nightblade. None of which are effective when you are jumped at random. Insane burst from stealth is not a L2P issue. I get so sick of hearing that phrase when it has no meaning in so many discussions.

Jumped at random in IC is not even a thing. If you don't have your guard up it's your own fault. Making threads like this is a plague and I'm ashamed I've bumped it 3 times. It's stuff like this that ultimately kills classes. If they touch proxy det (which they already are cause of these posts) then melee mag builds will fall even further down the list, ie. Magicka Templars, Magicka DKs, and Magicka NBs. It will hurt the weakest the most (temps/DKs) and we'll all see even more stam builds putting out spammable 10K attacks cause everyone will respec.

Crown

Solariken wrote: »

[I didn't say mine was a 1-second death, only that this particular NB is built specifically for 1-second burst kills. He's a constant annoyance down there, but this one particularly irked me.

There's no such thing as a 1-second death. The shortest time to kill is 2 seconds, and even then it won't be by MOST magicka NBs. A stmaina ganker with a good build and a bow will kill you a LOT faster than someone opening with a det. When you get hit by the det, you know exactly where the opponent is, and if you have reaction times of 1 second or less, you can live through it and counter attack. A ranged ganker will have an extra 2 seconds before you identify their location and can get to them.

When you're in the sewers, if you don't have good reaction times, then you should go farm something else. That's all there is to it.

Solariken wrote: »

But @Crown, you are missing the important part of his rotation: FEAR. Any good NB is able to get this full rotation off without resistance if they open from stealth without their target being aware of their presence: Lotus Fan > CW > FEAR > Soul Harvest > Proxy > CW.

As soon as you see a Lotus fan come in, you should be roll dodging. Even if the NB gets his fear off, your break free time is about the same as his gap close (walking or another Lotus Fan). At that point, it's a question of who is the better duellist.

Your break-free timing should 0.75 seconds from when you have the start of the Fear animation. Again, as soon as a ganker makes himself known - especially a melee ganker, your first reaction is to get a shield up and/or cc him and/or get out of melee range while you buff up and prepare to counter.

Solariken wrote: »

They get the WHOLE rotation, there is no counter.

No they don't. The only time a NB gets their whole rotation is if YOU don't react and just wait to die. If you have 100 health left, you can still recover.

Solariken wrote: »

EDIT: RNG would have been my only saving grace - if Shuffle had dodged any of these hits I might have turned the fight around.

No. Had you done one of the many things that messes up a magicka NB's attempt to gank, you could have turned it around. I spent the better part of November / December ganking as a magicka NB, and I can tell you with a high degree of certainty just looking at a player for 10 seconds while they move and fight NPCs if they'll survive my gank.

tonemd

Just to be clear here, this is a magicka nightblade running prox-det diss thread, right?

No one else is dangerous with prox-det?