Where Are We Headed?

Joy_Division

Not that I'm a negative person, but probably heading for a patch of disappointment.

• Aside from specific times during keep capture, I have no incentive not to ball/stack on crown.
• Open-world fights of groups of 12 Vs. 24 still play play different rules.
• ZoS is going to have to add another digit to its /ping UI when it comes to trying take heavily defended keeps such as Arrius where stacking guilds/mass PUGs will be necessary with the new siege changes and nerfs to barrier/purge (and FCs to prolong these fights)
• We are still going to have a negative community environment breeding toxicity because of in game mechanics that favor gameplay that people, even the primary offenders, would rather not see.
• There still is no incentive for the 50 Reds who just took Bleakers to go anywhere but Aleswell.

All of these issues were pointed out clearly by many people back in May 2014. The OP has repeated all of these and then some. It's January 2016 and yet here we are.

The OP's post is long. It also is insightful and any ZoS dev should take 5 minutes and see what goes on inside the mind of a raid lead who tries to play the map they have presented us. It would spur them to do something other than pretending that adding an unprugable heal debuff would solve the issues we complain about on a nightly basis.

KenaPKK

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

I'd love a campaign with no Alliance War skill line or AoE. People would actually be forced to fight 1v1.

Actually, gathering in large groups would be the only safe way to play the game. Larger groups have more single target damage sources, so they will always beat smaller groups, no matter how organized a smaller group tries to be. A campaign like this would be a mess.

KenaPKK

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

A zerg is any group larger than is necessary to achieve its objective. I've been saying this for a long time, and I stand by my definition of the word. No one dislikes large groups existing. People dislike two things: uneven fights and lag.

The game was marketed as a "play how you want" sandbox within a RvRvR environment capable of supporting large scale battles. All group sizes should be accommodated, and big groups shouldn't "zerg" down little groups with unnecessarily large numbers.

But as for your suggestions, yes, more PvP objectives in Cyrodiil and IC, removal of AoE caps and Prox Det, implementation of mild dynamic ulti generation, free movement between campaigns + incentive to participate in all of them, reworked campaign victory rewards...

The list goes on an on, all things we've been calling for in the name of "fixing" PvP. XD

Except for the small vs large thing becomes a strawman most of the times it is used.

We talked about this in game briefly during that PM discussion, where I mentioned I try to keep groups manageable but able to handle whatever is thrown at us.

Most "small man" groups want to just Xv1 people. The lord's group is a good example of this. If you have 20, he throws a fit on his stream about being zerged, but if you are by yourself, he will cheerfully critrush you with six other guys in a 7v1 steamroll and talk about how awesome he is.

So really, its just scapegoating to save ego more than a real problem. God forbid people cant "safely" gank people 4-6 on 1 every time they see a rider on horseback. People dont normally ride alone anymore because they got sick of it. As a solo ganker on one of my chars, I know this one all too well. Its hard to find a good gankspot nowadays that isnt crowded with 20 other gankers fighting over the occasional piece of meat, and running to the cubbies and rocks every time a full raid steams through.

Now, stacking three raids onto a keep flag and spamming springs + tornado and causing 2k ping for everyone? Yeah thats a whole other issue and definitely a problem.

Come on to read the forums a little and this is the first thing I come across.

Does it make you feel better citing me for no reason at all as the person who goes around on stream 7v1ing people? For all of the people that fight poorly and with numbers on their side in this game, youre going to call out FENGRUSH for it? Good laughs Rylana. Keep on jabbing.

I'm not the type to watch someone else playing the game that I could be playing myself, so I've never seen your stream and won't comment on Rylana's call-out. In general, the people referenced in the OP are the first to start saying, "you had 2.38 players more than us! FFS stop zerging". The race to the bottom to run fewer people in group than the guy next to you so you can announce it to the world and think it somehow merits respect and awe has resulted in smaller group sizes, but just as big if not bigger clusters of people attacking the same objective. You'll fight a small group,, kill them, and then get salty ego-saving whispers after about how they were zerged down and you're bad and they're good, meanwhile, there were enough additional small groups and pugs on their side during the fight that they had ended up having significantly more numbers at the keep. Try telling that to the small group you killed, and you're told to l2count and called a liar. Try pointing out the hypocrisy when the tables are turned and suddenly they go quiet - now you're trying to stir up drama and looking to pick a fight, and "when did pvp become so toxic" - yadda yadda yadda. I'll tell you when pvp became toxic - when people starting focusing on their own group size to the exclusion of all else, expecting opponents to react in real time and only ever allow exactly equal numbers to fight when the smaller group tries to stealth bomb (exaggerating here and having a little fun) while the overflow crowd moves off to the side and/or is allowed to fight the 20 pugs running around that don't count and never existed and weren't at the keep to even begin with.

Some legitimate imbalances between large v small group play have spiraled into large groups being responsible for all of the lag (and of course, somehow 5 small groups of 9 people contribute nothing at all compared to the opposing 1 large group of 24 during a fight), and even though the two issues are entirely mutually exclusive, large groups just became the scapegoat because it was easier to cast them as the cause for both issues. I can't comment on what Rylana said, but you've certainly been a contributor on this front, though I certainly won't single you out, because it's easily a majority of the regular forum posters that fall into this category. Much of the anti-group rhetoric left reality months ago.

This patch is the absolute worst to 1vX in.

Is true..

Xsorus

booksmcread wrote: »

CITADALO wrote: »

x99Needles wrote: »

I am going to disclaim now; this is going to be quite a long post. I do not come to the forums often for various reasons. Exceptions being when I have something to say or in response to someone. Everyone has their two cents about what’s going on with this game, these are mine.

It is no secret that Cyrodiil is in a poor state. Between the constant lag issues, the stale “how many can I stack and who’s got barrier” Meta, and the discouraged or tired out leaving Cyrodiil at a frightening rate leaves Cyrodiil feeling just a little emptier than it was before. I can agree as I think most all of us can that something needs to change. I mean we all wish the lag would be “fixed” or just go away but the reality of the situation is that the game cannot currently operate as was intended. Say what you will about how it “should” work or how the game has been out for two years why can’t they get it together already. Things are not as simple as “fix” or “make it work”, they take time and I hope to god they do figure something out because the number one reason people stop playing is because they literally can’t play.

What I am more concerned about further each day I watch this game is where we are currently headed. The upcoming changes to Alliance War Skills and Siege Weapons inside Cyrodiil are excellent examples. We are reducing the effectiveness of skills meant to be used inside the alliance war and increasing the effectiveness of siege damage. Why? What’s the problem?

The problem is evident and easily explained with the such a simple word that is has become casually interpreted as the root of all of the game’s problems. Zerg.

“If people wouldn’t zerg.” “Zergs are the only reason it lags.” “Zergs ruin this game.”

Maybe so. It cannot be denied, when you stack even just 48 people in one Keep or Outpost, the ping skyrockets in search of the next galaxy over. Skills become things that just look pretty on your bar, movement looks like a poorly edited Claymation, and you sit back at your computer letting out a heavy sigh because that’s just about the extent of what you can do. And because of this, the forums, and zone, the community in general gets flooded with “anti-zerg” mentality and advocating warriors. I hate stacking, I hate fighting zergs, I hate when the game isn’t playable. Just like all of you.

But we’ve come to the point when a zerg is simply whenever you lose outnumbered, whether it be by a few or a dozen players. Quick, point and shout zerg! This mentality that has built up, and been encouraged by several players who have done nothing inside Cyrodiil but complain and keep to their corners of the map. It is plain toxic and not informative either. Zerg shaming has become a downright display of ignorance, no longer equitable.

I understand just as well as any of us, zergs are a problem. What I do not understand is reducing this games play to point and click on a siege weapon and removing the skills that allowed us to counter that. For those of you who do not know who I am, I am the GM of Vehemence (VE). I run 24 man raids every night.
The allotted group size in Cyrodiil, and yet I am constantly alongside my players accused of mindless zerging. Yet, every night the number of fights we do, the sheer numbers we face. I am outnumbered 8 out of ten times in any given situation in Cyrodiil. This is the fact of the game. Sometimes it works okay, sometimes it really sucks. It is not our fault, nor the players we are going up against that the game’s performance is poor.

Despite contending odds, we still manage to take objectives, defend objectives, sometimes with help sometimes alone. This is capable because of our teamwork and the skills available to us. I agreed that the “how many can I stack and who’s got a barrier” Meta is boring and needs a change. However, making the skill almost completely useless in raid play alongside nerfs to purge, is not the solution in my opinion. “The zerg is the problem so we’ll just make it so you can easily kill anything with siege and they won’t be able to defend themselves adequately.”

The game is slowly ever crawling to favoring the solo or smaller groups inside Cyrodiil. We are blaming the larger groups inside Cyrodiil for lagging the server and being “what’s wrong with the game.” Who do you think responds to the hordes of the opposing factions when it’s called out in zone? Who pushes back the faction that is on your front door? Who went out of their way to save that scroll? The guilds and groups inside Cyrodiil that run “larger” numbers when they are simply filling the group size inside Cyrodiil. And it cannot be argued that the larger groups are more successful than the smaller ones. Zergs aside, take 4 against 10, unless you’re dealing with a severe gap in skill the 10 are going to win and that’s how it should be. War is not a game of morale victories.

The mentality that has evolved inside this game is almost unbelievable. You are playing an RvR Game. We are all playing a game designed around taking objectives inside Cyrodiil that revolve around at the very least 18 man groups. This game does not support dueling or arenas (yet as they say.) And here we are shaming players and groups for playing the way it was intended…

Has anyone thought what Cyrodiil would like without all the large groups? Perfect right? You could all go do your solo and small man things to your hearts content inside an open world RvR realm where the Keeps simply become decorations on the map. A ghost town for your needs and desires. But we like playing this game too. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to play small. Nothing at all. You aren’t shamed or attacked for it. You aren’t blamed for things that are clearly out of your hands. And you also do nothing for your faction. You don’t take keeps. You don’t fight back. You don’t contribute to the score. You play alongside your faction's zergs and scold or you keep to your corners fighting duels while the map conflicts.

Where are we headed like this? Are we going to continue experiencing game changes that favor simplified play and how much siege you can set down? As a community there are no other options we can come to? No other solutions besides complaining and shaming and name-calling? This is what this game is becoming?

Do you think we enjoy the lag as well? Do you think I get into cyrodiil and immediately ask, “who can I stack with?!” I spend half my night making calls to avoid colliding with friendly guilds and I still end up surrounded by DC at times. You think I run 24 members so I can chase down 3 or 4 people in a field and exclaim, “Get rekt! We are so good!” That's it, I've been compiling footage for my Xv1 video for the past year and a half guys. No. We don’t play for that. It’s not fun to play in lag, but the next time you’re fighting “a zerg” take off your own zerg goggles and take a quick look around you. Chances are, you are surrounded by your own faction. Just because you aren’t grouped doesn’t mean you aren’t a large force. Taking objectives and defending in Cyrodiil against the masses would not be possible without large groups. You are inside an RvR game. There are going to be large groups, and it’s not our fault. We aren’t what’s wrong with this game. The mentality and hate inside the community is what’s wrong. If you didn’t have large groups in Cyrodiil what a sad place it would be. But we keep pushing for groups to get dissolved.

Food for thought:

Stacking is a problem right now because the game can’t handle it. If we can’t fix the lag right now, why not institute more objectives inside Cyrodiil required for scoring? Force factions to spread for teamwork. You’re always going to have that jerk who stacks a raid or two because L2P but are there no ways for us to create or force factions to spread? If all we have left to defend is Aleswell and EP is pushing from Bleakers. Where do you think these two factions will collide? And quite literally the factions will collide. Because there is no other objective to push now. The next course of action has already been decided. The game was designed with natural choke points in Cyrodiil without the actual ability to handle the confrontations. It’s not EP nor DCs fault for going towards the objective when there’s no other option provided. They are playing as intended.

The removal of Prox Det as a skill entirely. No matter how you look at this skill or how many times you want to change it, it favors the group. It will never favor the smaller force enough to justify it. This is by far the best group AoE ever given to group players.

The adjustment of Barrier and Purge to only effect group members with the possibility of a slight number reduction. Not a drastic drop to where it’s not even worth mentioning as an Alliance War Skill.

The abolition of AoE caps and return of dynamic ultimate. Without AoE cap reduction and dynamic ultimate regen returned to players, you would be able to fight larger forces more easily as your ultimate would generate faster and your damage would not be mitigated because they stacked raids.

Strengthen AoE damage across the board for all class based skills. Pull players away from the stale "impulse and steel tornado only please". Nerf steel tornado’s range and remove the execution proc completely.

Institution of completely group based effects. This would include heals, set bonus buffs(as they already implemented), and all Alliance War Skills and any skills that effect nearby allies. Encourage players to group, stop discouraging and shaming it. This game was made to play with a group, stop arguing it.

Do not adjust siege damage against the player further, revoke the idea that siege should drain resources as well. If this becomes nothing but a siege vs siege game, it will be the most boring pvp experience on the market right now. All siege effects should be purgable as an alliance war skill inside alliance war siege damage.

Adjustment of the mentality that groups are what’s wrong with this game. Remember you are playing an RvR game. This PvP is undeniably group based. It is not the group’s fault that the lag is present. That is a strictly development issue. And I’m not saying scream at ZOS either. Exercise some patience and grace. We are all playing this game, just because someone plays a way you don’t doesn’t even come close to making them wrong.

I love this game; I seriously have never had so much fun playing a game. During the frustrations, the lag, the disappointment, we are all still playing for some reason. We love this game. I don’t want to watch this game drift into a brain dead hate fest dumbing down the game every patch. If you ask a majority of players they will tell you something similar to, “just here waiting for the next game to come out.” Hearing that phrase always saddens me, I love playing this game, but what’s the point if no one wants to and the people who still will are going to constantly harass the way you play? I am starting to count myself among those waiting for something else, because I’m not quite sure where TESO is headed like this.
-Like a Bulbasir/Permarekt

@Wrobel @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno

In Cyrodil there is no GvG mechanic like other mmo, maybe you should ask ZOS to implement that .This game don't support big group playstyle.

Cyrodiil is designed to be Group v Group. The fact that people can 1vX or duel or other activities despite it being outside of the core design of PvP in this game is great. But the core mechanics of the game are Group v Group.

This is incorrect; cyrodiil is designed to be AvAvA and this is how DAOC was designed as well the game this one is directly trying to copy. AvA or RvR if you prefer encompasses all levels of pvp from 1v1 to ZergvsZerg.. That's what separates it from arena or battleground based pvp. Saying cyrodiil is just designed around group vs group is willfully misinformed about where this system of pvp came from and its intent.

Knootewoot

Down the drain is the lag keeps up like this. Geez it's bad tonight.

_Chaos

Xsorus wrote: »

booksmcread wrote: »

CITADALO wrote: »

x99Needles wrote: »

I am going to disclaim now; this is going to be quite a long post. I do not come to the forums often for various reasons. Exceptions being when I have something to say or in response to someone. Everyone has their two cents about what’s going on with this game, these are mine.

It is no secret that Cyrodiil is in a poor state. Between the constant lag issues, the stale “how many can I stack and who’s got barrier” Meta, and the discouraged or tired out leaving Cyrodiil at a frightening rate leaves Cyrodiil feeling just a little emptier than it was before. I can agree as I think most all of us can that something needs to change. I mean we all wish the lag would be “fixed” or just go away but the reality of the situation is that the game cannot currently operate as was intended. Say what you will about how it “should” work or how the game has been out for two years why can’t they get it together already. Things are not as simple as “fix” or “make it work”, they take time and I hope to god they do figure something out because the number one reason people stop playing is because they literally can’t play.

What I am more concerned about further each day I watch this game is where we are currently headed. The upcoming changes to Alliance War Skills and Siege Weapons inside Cyrodiil are excellent examples. We are reducing the effectiveness of skills meant to be used inside the alliance war and increasing the effectiveness of siege damage. Why? What’s the problem?

The problem is evident and easily explained with the such a simple word that is has become casually interpreted as the root of all of the game’s problems. Zerg.

“If people wouldn’t zerg.” “Zergs are the only reason it lags.” “Zergs ruin this game.”

Maybe so. It cannot be denied, when you stack even just 48 people in one Keep or Outpost, the ping skyrockets in search of the next galaxy over. Skills become things that just look pretty on your bar, movement looks like a poorly edited Claymation, and you sit back at your computer letting out a heavy sigh because that’s just about the extent of what you can do. And because of this, the forums, and zone, the community in general gets flooded with “anti-zerg” mentality and advocating warriors. I hate stacking, I hate fighting zergs, I hate when the game isn’t playable. Just like all of you.

But we’ve come to the point when a zerg is simply whenever you lose outnumbered, whether it be by a few or a dozen players. Quick, point and shout zerg! This mentality that has built up, and been encouraged by several players who have done nothing inside Cyrodiil but complain and keep to their corners of the map. It is plain toxic and not informative either. Zerg shaming has become a downright display of ignorance, no longer equitable.

I understand just as well as any of us, zergs are a problem. What I do not understand is reducing this games play to point and click on a siege weapon and removing the skills that allowed us to counter that. For those of you who do not know who I am, I am the GM of Vehemence (VE). I run 24 man raids every night.
The allotted group size in Cyrodiil, and yet I am constantly alongside my players accused of mindless zerging. Yet, every night the number of fights we do, the sheer numbers we face. I am outnumbered 8 out of ten times in any given situation in Cyrodiil. This is the fact of the game. Sometimes it works okay, sometimes it really sucks. It is not our fault, nor the players we are going up against that the game’s performance is poor.

Despite contending odds, we still manage to take objectives, defend objectives, sometimes with help sometimes alone. This is capable because of our teamwork and the skills available to us. I agreed that the “how many can I stack and who’s got a barrier” Meta is boring and needs a change. However, making the skill almost completely useless in raid play alongside nerfs to purge, is not the solution in my opinion. “The zerg is the problem so we’ll just make it so you can easily kill anything with siege and they won’t be able to defend themselves adequately.”

The game is slowly ever crawling to favoring the solo or smaller groups inside Cyrodiil. We are blaming the larger groups inside Cyrodiil for lagging the server and being “what’s wrong with the game.” Who do you think responds to the hordes of the opposing factions when it’s called out in zone? Who pushes back the faction that is on your front door? Who went out of their way to save that scroll? The guilds and groups inside Cyrodiil that run “larger” numbers when they are simply filling the group size inside Cyrodiil. And it cannot be argued that the larger groups are more successful than the smaller ones. Zergs aside, take 4 against 10, unless you’re dealing with a severe gap in skill the 10 are going to win and that’s how it should be. War is not a game of morale victories.

The mentality that has evolved inside this game is almost unbelievable. You are playing an RvR Game. We are all playing a game designed around taking objectives inside Cyrodiil that revolve around at the very least 18 man groups. This game does not support dueling or arenas (yet as they say.) And here we are shaming players and groups for playing the way it was intended…

Has anyone thought what Cyrodiil would like without all the large groups? Perfect right? You could all go do your solo and small man things to your hearts content inside an open world RvR realm where the Keeps simply become decorations on the map. A ghost town for your needs and desires. But we like playing this game too. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to play small. Nothing at all. You aren’t shamed or attacked for it. You aren’t blamed for things that are clearly out of your hands. And you also do nothing for your faction. You don’t take keeps. You don’t fight back. You don’t contribute to the score. You play alongside your faction's zergs and scold or you keep to your corners fighting duels while the map conflicts.

Where are we headed like this? Are we going to continue experiencing game changes that favor simplified play and how much siege you can set down? As a community there are no other options we can come to? No other solutions besides complaining and shaming and name-calling? This is what this game is becoming?

Do you think we enjoy the lag as well? Do you think I get into cyrodiil and immediately ask, “who can I stack with?!” I spend half my night making calls to avoid colliding with friendly guilds and I still end up surrounded by DC at times. You think I run 24 members so I can chase down 3 or 4 people in a field and exclaim, “Get rekt! We are so good!” That's it, I've been compiling footage for my Xv1 video for the past year and a half guys. No. We don’t play for that. It’s not fun to play in lag, but the next time you’re fighting “a zerg” take off your own zerg goggles and take a quick look around you. Chances are, you are surrounded by your own faction. Just because you aren’t grouped doesn’t mean you aren’t a large force. Taking objectives and defending in Cyrodiil against the masses would not be possible without large groups. You are inside an RvR game. There are going to be large groups, and it’s not our fault. We aren’t what’s wrong with this game. The mentality and hate inside the community is what’s wrong. If you didn’t have large groups in Cyrodiil what a sad place it would be. But we keep pushing for groups to get dissolved.

Food for thought:

Stacking is a problem right now because the game can’t handle it. If we can’t fix the lag right now, why not institute more objectives inside Cyrodiil required for scoring? Force factions to spread for teamwork. You’re always going to have that jerk who stacks a raid or two because L2P but are there no ways for us to create or force factions to spread? If all we have left to defend is Aleswell and EP is pushing from Bleakers. Where do you think these two factions will collide? And quite literally the factions will collide. Because there is no other objective to push now. The next course of action has already been decided. The game was designed with natural choke points in Cyrodiil without the actual ability to handle the confrontations. It’s not EP nor DCs fault for going towards the objective when there’s no other option provided. They are playing as intended.

The removal of Prox Det as a skill entirely. No matter how you look at this skill or how many times you want to change it, it favors the group. It will never favor the smaller force enough to justify it. This is by far the best group AoE ever given to group players.

The adjustment of Barrier and Purge to only effect group members with the possibility of a slight number reduction. Not a drastic drop to where it’s not even worth mentioning as an Alliance War Skill.

The abolition of AoE caps and return of dynamic ultimate. Without AoE cap reduction and dynamic ultimate regen returned to players, you would be able to fight larger forces more easily as your ultimate would generate faster and your damage would not be mitigated because they stacked raids.

Strengthen AoE damage across the board for all class based skills. Pull players away from the stale "impulse and steel tornado only please". Nerf steel tornado’s range and remove the execution proc completely.

Institution of completely group based effects. This would include heals, set bonus buffs(as they already implemented), and all Alliance War Skills and any skills that effect nearby allies. Encourage players to group, stop discouraging and shaming it. This game was made to play with a group, stop arguing it.

Do not adjust siege damage against the player further, revoke the idea that siege should drain resources as well. If this becomes nothing but a siege vs siege game, it will be the most boring pvp experience on the market right now. All siege effects should be purgable as an alliance war skill inside alliance war siege damage.

Adjustment of the mentality that groups are what’s wrong with this game. Remember you are playing an RvR game. This PvP is undeniably group based. It is not the group’s fault that the lag is present. That is a strictly development issue. And I’m not saying scream at ZOS either. Exercise some patience and grace. We are all playing this game, just because someone plays a way you don’t doesn’t even come close to making them wrong.

I love this game; I seriously have never had so much fun playing a game. During the frustrations, the lag, the disappointment, we are all still playing for some reason. We love this game. I don’t want to watch this game drift into a brain dead hate fest dumbing down the game every patch. If you ask a majority of players they will tell you something similar to, “just here waiting for the next game to come out.” Hearing that phrase always saddens me, I love playing this game, but what’s the point if no one wants to and the people who still will are going to constantly harass the way you play? I am starting to count myself among those waiting for something else, because I’m not quite sure where TESO is headed like this.
-Like a Bulbasir/Permarekt

@Wrobel @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno

In Cyrodil there is no GvG mechanic like other mmo, maybe you should ask ZOS to implement that .This game don't support big group playstyle.

Cyrodiil is designed to be Group v Group. The fact that people can 1vX or duel or other activities despite it being outside of the core design of PvP in this game is great. But the core mechanics of the game are Group v Group.

This is incorrect; cyrodiil is designed to be AvAvA and this is how DAOC was designed as well the game this one is directly trying to copy. AvA or RvR if you prefer encompasses all levels of pvp from 1v1 to ZergvsZerg.. That's what separates it from arena or battleground based pvp. Saying cyrodiil is just designed around group vs group is willfully misinformed about where this system of pvp came from and its intent.

You're so dishonest with yourself.. name one Cyrodiil objective for soloer's.

Leovolao

Xsorus wrote: »

booksmcread wrote: »

CITADALO wrote: »

x99Needles wrote: »

I am going to disclaim now; this is going to be quite a long post. I do not come to the forums often for various reasons. Exceptions being when I have something to say or in response to someone. Everyone has their two cents about what’s going on with this game, these are mine.

It is no secret that Cyrodiil is in a poor state. Between the constant lag issues, the stale “how many can I stack and who’s got barrier” Meta, and the discouraged or tired out leaving Cyrodiil at a frightening rate leaves Cyrodiil feeling just a little emptier than it was before. I can agree as I think most all of us can that something needs to change. I mean we all wish the lag would be “fixed” or just go away but the reality of the situation is that the game cannot currently operate as was intended. Say what you will about how it “should” work or how the game has been out for two years why can’t they get it together already. Things are not as simple as “fix” or “make it work”, they take time and I hope to god they do figure something out because the number one reason people stop playing is because they literally can’t play.

What I am more concerned about further each day I watch this game is where we are currently headed. The upcoming changes to Alliance War Skills and Siege Weapons inside Cyrodiil are excellent examples. We are reducing the effectiveness of skills meant to be used inside the alliance war and increasing the effectiveness of siege damage. Why? What’s the problem?

The problem is evident and easily explained with the such a simple word that is has become casually interpreted as the root of all of the game’s problems. Zerg.

“If people wouldn’t zerg.” “Zergs are the only reason it lags.” “Zergs ruin this game.”

Maybe so. It cannot be denied, when you stack even just 48 people in one Keep or Outpost, the ping skyrockets in search of the next galaxy over. Skills become things that just look pretty on your bar, movement looks like a poorly edited Claymation, and you sit back at your computer letting out a heavy sigh because that’s just about the extent of what you can do. And because of this, the forums, and zone, the community in general gets flooded with “anti-zerg” mentality and advocating warriors. I hate stacking, I hate fighting zergs, I hate when the game isn’t playable. Just like all of you.

But we’ve come to the point when a zerg is simply whenever you lose outnumbered, whether it be by a few or a dozen players. Quick, point and shout zerg! This mentality that has built up, and been encouraged by several players who have done nothing inside Cyrodiil but complain and keep to their corners of the map. It is plain toxic and not informative either. Zerg shaming has become a downright display of ignorance, no longer equitable.

I understand just as well as any of us, zergs are a problem. What I do not understand is reducing this games play to point and click on a siege weapon and removing the skills that allowed us to counter that. For those of you who do not know who I am, I am the GM of Vehemence (VE). I run 24 man raids every night.
The allotted group size in Cyrodiil, and yet I am constantly alongside my players accused of mindless zerging. Yet, every night the number of fights we do, the sheer numbers we face. I am outnumbered 8 out of ten times in any given situation in Cyrodiil. This is the fact of the game. Sometimes it works okay, sometimes it really sucks. It is not our fault, nor the players we are going up against that the game’s performance is poor.

Despite contending odds, we still manage to take objectives, defend objectives, sometimes with help sometimes alone. This is capable because of our teamwork and the skills available to us. I agreed that the “how many can I stack and who’s got a barrier” Meta is boring and needs a change. However, making the skill almost completely useless in raid play alongside nerfs to purge, is not the solution in my opinion. “The zerg is the problem so we’ll just make it so you can easily kill anything with siege and they won’t be able to defend themselves adequately.”

The game is slowly ever crawling to favoring the solo or smaller groups inside Cyrodiil. We are blaming the larger groups inside Cyrodiil for lagging the server and being “what’s wrong with the game.” Who do you think responds to the hordes of the opposing factions when it’s called out in zone? Who pushes back the faction that is on your front door? Who went out of their way to save that scroll? The guilds and groups inside Cyrodiil that run “larger” numbers when they are simply filling the group size inside Cyrodiil. And it cannot be argued that the larger groups are more successful than the smaller ones. Zergs aside, take 4 against 10, unless you’re dealing with a severe gap in skill the 10 are going to win and that’s how it should be. War is not a game of morale victories.

The mentality that has evolved inside this game is almost unbelievable. You are playing an RvR Game. We are all playing a game designed around taking objectives inside Cyrodiil that revolve around at the very least 18 man groups. This game does not support dueling or arenas (yet as they say.) And here we are shaming players and groups for playing the way it was intended…

Has anyone thought what Cyrodiil would like without all the large groups? Perfect right? You could all go do your solo and small man things to your hearts content inside an open world RvR realm where the Keeps simply become decorations on the map. A ghost town for your needs and desires. But we like playing this game too. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to play small. Nothing at all. You aren’t shamed or attacked for it. You aren’t blamed for things that are clearly out of your hands. And you also do nothing for your faction. You don’t take keeps. You don’t fight back. You don’t contribute to the score. You play alongside your faction's zergs and scold or you keep to your corners fighting duels while the map conflicts.

Where are we headed like this? Are we going to continue experiencing game changes that favor simplified play and how much siege you can set down? As a community there are no other options we can come to? No other solutions besides complaining and shaming and name-calling? This is what this game is becoming?

Do you think we enjoy the lag as well? Do you think I get into cyrodiil and immediately ask, “who can I stack with?!” I spend half my night making calls to avoid colliding with friendly guilds and I still end up surrounded by DC at times. You think I run 24 members so I can chase down 3 or 4 people in a field and exclaim, “Get rekt! We are so good!” That's it, I've been compiling footage for my Xv1 video for the past year and a half guys. No. We don’t play for that. It’s not fun to play in lag, but the next time you’re fighting “a zerg” take off your own zerg goggles and take a quick look around you. Chances are, you are surrounded by your own faction. Just because you aren’t grouped doesn’t mean you aren’t a large force. Taking objectives and defending in Cyrodiil against the masses would not be possible without large groups. You are inside an RvR game. There are going to be large groups, and it’s not our fault. We aren’t what’s wrong with this game. The mentality and hate inside the community is what’s wrong. If you didn’t have large groups in Cyrodiil what a sad place it would be. But we keep pushing for groups to get dissolved.

Food for thought:

Stacking is a problem right now because the game can’t handle it. If we can’t fix the lag right now, why not institute more objectives inside Cyrodiil required for scoring? Force factions to spread for teamwork. You’re always going to have that jerk who stacks a raid or two because L2P but are there no ways for us to create or force factions to spread? If all we have left to defend is Aleswell and EP is pushing from Bleakers. Where do you think these two factions will collide? And quite literally the factions will collide. Because there is no other objective to push now. The next course of action has already been decided. The game was designed with natural choke points in Cyrodiil without the actual ability to handle the confrontations. It’s not EP nor DCs fault for going towards the objective when there’s no other option provided. They are playing as intended.

The removal of Prox Det as a skill entirely. No matter how you look at this skill or how many times you want to change it, it favors the group. It will never favor the smaller force enough to justify it. This is by far the best group AoE ever given to group players.

The adjustment of Barrier and Purge to only effect group members with the possibility of a slight number reduction. Not a drastic drop to where it’s not even worth mentioning as an Alliance War Skill.

The abolition of AoE caps and return of dynamic ultimate. Without AoE cap reduction and dynamic ultimate regen returned to players, you would be able to fight larger forces more easily as your ultimate would generate faster and your damage would not be mitigated because they stacked raids.

Strengthen AoE damage across the board for all class based skills. Pull players away from the stale "impulse and steel tornado only please". Nerf steel tornado’s range and remove the execution proc completely.

Institution of completely group based effects. This would include heals, set bonus buffs(as they already implemented), and all Alliance War Skills and any skills that effect nearby allies. Encourage players to group, stop discouraging and shaming it. This game was made to play with a group, stop arguing it.

Do not adjust siege damage against the player further, revoke the idea that siege should drain resources as well. If this becomes nothing but a siege vs siege game, it will be the most boring pvp experience on the market right now. All siege effects should be purgable as an alliance war skill inside alliance war siege damage.

Adjustment of the mentality that groups are what’s wrong with this game. Remember you are playing an RvR game. This PvP is undeniably group based. It is not the group’s fault that the lag is present. That is a strictly development issue. And I’m not saying scream at ZOS either. Exercise some patience and grace. We are all playing this game, just because someone plays a way you don’t doesn’t even come close to making them wrong.

I love this game; I seriously have never had so much fun playing a game. During the frustrations, the lag, the disappointment, we are all still playing for some reason. We love this game. I don’t want to watch this game drift into a brain dead hate fest dumbing down the game every patch. If you ask a majority of players they will tell you something similar to, “just here waiting for the next game to come out.” Hearing that phrase always saddens me, I love playing this game, but what’s the point if no one wants to and the people who still will are going to constantly harass the way you play? I am starting to count myself among those waiting for something else, because I’m not quite sure where TESO is headed like this.
-Like a Bulbasir/Permarekt

@Wrobel @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno

In Cyrodil there is no GvG mechanic like other mmo, maybe you should ask ZOS to implement that .This game don't support big group playstyle.

Cyrodiil is designed to be Group v Group. The fact that people can 1vX or duel or other activities despite it being outside of the core design of PvP in this game is great. But the core mechanics of the game are Group v Group.

This is incorrect; cyrodiil is designed to be AvAvA and this is how DAOC was designed as well the game this one is directly trying to copy. AvA or RvR if you prefer encompasses all levels of pvp from 1v1 to ZergvsZerg.. That's what separates it from arena or battleground based pvp. Saying cyrodiil is just designed around group vs group is willfully misinformed about where this system of pvp came from and its intent.

This one time in DAOC camp...

zyk

spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »

You're so dishonest with yourself.. name one Cyrodiil objective for soloer's.

Resources can be captured and held for decent amounts of time by one or two players.

Ganking and anti-ganking are obviously part of the game design and can be done solo. IMO, lanes are intended to be full of solo hunters.

During keep takes and defenses, solo players can perform a wide variety of support roles -- including the disruption of reinforcements.

And, of course, scouting.

There is lots of gameplay for solo/duo/small groups out there.

Minno

zyk wrote: »

spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »

You're so dishonest with yourself.. name one Cyrodiil objective for soloer's.

Resources can be captured and held for decent amounts of time by one or two players.

Ganking and anti-ganking are obviously part of the game design and can be done solo. IMO, lanes are intended to be full of solo hunters.

During keep takes and defenses, solo players can perform a wide variety of support roles -- including the disruption of reinforcements.

And, of course, scouting.

There is lots of gameplay for solo/duo/small groups out there.

Only viable objective with AP tangible rewards is resource taking.

They need an overhaul of cyro objectives in sync with AP gain review in order to offer players a balanced pvp environment.

Till then it will always be "damn zergs; solo players cry too much" partisanship.

We could offer our own sandbox rules, but in the end it's what the players are willing to support.

OdinForge

Back before 1.6, I used to save keeps with people like Xylena, and 3 or 4 EP pugs, against 8-10 attackers.

Now it's 15-20 attackers at a time, with endless healing and defense. The small man hero no longer exists, it's jump in a ball group or GTFO. You can't take nodes without a large group, because the same type of healing / defense group waits on the other side.

You weaken the single player, to the point where they hardly matter anymore outside of a ball group.

Minno

Zheg wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

... I was harassed on stream, in PMs, in guild chat - its whatever. I know how it goes, and what is going on there (this is despite fighting in a Khole group of 12 vs 40+ AD).

To tackle the other part about people referencing numbers and stuff as a larger issue - I honestly attribute that mostly to this patch being what it is. It was the case before that you could be outnumbered 25v20 and really not notice much difference. And its still pretty minute all things considered, but its more relevant now than before. Numbers count for so much now, and its something that drives me nuts. People dont die as easily as before, and while Id like to see the game go in that direction, the math behind it is completely fubar allowing numbers to be more relevant than player skill due to the mechanics were ruled by in PVP.

So I think there is a reason for the hateful rhetoric youll get. But when people see 30-40+ people marching in a blob, a lot of players are simply turned off by it. I typically dont want anything to do with it either, because if a real fight breaks out, I know the quality of gameplay will hit rock bottom, and I dont enjoy streaming that to people. People dont like watching it either.

The post was meant to clarify that the OP focused on people that have blinders on when running in a small group and think that just because they're in a group of 9 (or whatever) they're free of any blame for having too large numbers in a fight, even though they can frequently end up in a sea of allies that end up dwarfing the other side who then gets accused (somehow?) of zerging because they put 20 people in a single group. It's lunacy. I bolded the part of your post that demonstrates what we'll see on a nightly basis.

To the rest of your post, I think (?) part of the point bulb was trying to make is that large groups are one of the best vehicles to handle insane numbers and push objectives so everyone isn't condensed at the last meaningful objective. Numbers certainly do matter more in this patch, but when you have a balanced larger group, you can handle being outnumbered better than you can in a smaller group (at least, I've found). All of the new changes that have been hailed seem focused on turning large groups into small groups, and the point trying to be made is that if this ends up getting pushed to the point where we just don't have large groups any more, there is a significant risk that the clusters of small groups and pugs just end up stacking even harder because now there isn't a front lines force pushing into the crapstorm and taking on the bigger numbers before they become obscene and all bear down on the last important objective while people sit in keeps because broken siege mechanics make it counter-productive to play offensively without significantly outnumbering your opponent. The irony that seems to be missed by a lot of people is that larger groups end up reducing the amount of stacking that happens on the map because they're able to go hit an objective without needing the pug herd behind them to do so.

Small teams and large teams are frustrated that after 2 years, pvp hasn't gotten the attention it needed tbh.

Large teams need additional major objectives to pull them off the major keep-major keep linear movements. Small teams need viable objectives that can help the large teams without the cross polinating of both. We already have keeps/resources that bring both teams together. And we have IC to function as a glorified arena setup.

We might have to come together as one pvp community and support our voices in a balanced way. Here's how we can start:

- increased pvp events run by players. (It sounds like Jules did a good job organizing an event to bring new pvp experiences to a dull environment. Mega props!) Small man teams need more than just duel events now. Ideas?

- understanding of each others playstyle via open invites if possible. (While trickierfor large raid format to include new players, us small man players can do our part to invite large raid players to join us looking for small scale fights. Or to struggle to embrace Haderus as the defacto small man server.)

- lets get real with ZOS. If we all agree AOE caps hurt the game, lets get together and focus that. If they wont do it, how can we refocus so that both playstyles can embrace the only two pvp areas without creating separations?

Teargrants

zyk wrote: »

And, of course, scouting.

There is lots of gameplay for solo/duo/small groups out there.

Solo players are only useful in scout rolls if they are in group and TS with a raid. Just being in TS and not in group results in a big loss in effectiveness because you can't see exactly where your group is if you leave LOS. knowing your group's position is key to making meaningful callouts because you can direct them how to react instead of just calling out enemies. This only accounts for seconds in reaction time, but the streamlining is very powerful in a meta where group vs group fights are decided in seconds.

Source: this is what I do every day.

Joy_Division

Leovolao wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

booksmcread wrote: »

CITADALO wrote: »

x99Needles wrote: »

I am going to disclaim now; this is going to be quite a long post. I do not come to the forums often for various reasons. Exceptions being when I have something to say or in response to someone. Everyone has their two cents about what’s going on with this game, these are mine.

It is no secret that Cyrodiil is in a poor state. Between the constant lag issues, the stale “how many can I stack and who’s got barrier” Meta, and the discouraged or tired out leaving Cyrodiil at a frightening rate leaves Cyrodiil feeling just a little emptier than it was before. I can agree as I think most all of us can that something needs to change. I mean we all wish the lag would be “fixed” or just go away but the reality of the situation is that the game cannot currently operate as was intended. Say what you will about how it “should” work or how the game has been out for two years why can’t they get it together already. Things are not as simple as “fix” or “make it work”, they take time and I hope to god they do figure something out because the number one reason people stop playing is because they literally can’t play.

What I am more concerned about further each day I watch this game is where we are currently headed. The upcoming changes to Alliance War Skills and Siege Weapons inside Cyrodiil are excellent examples. We are reducing the effectiveness of skills meant to be used inside the alliance war and increasing the effectiveness of siege damage. Why? What’s the problem?

The problem is evident and easily explained with the such a simple word that is has become casually interpreted as the root of all of the game’s problems. Zerg.

“If people wouldn’t zerg.” “Zergs are the only reason it lags.” “Zergs ruin this game.”

Maybe so. It cannot be denied, when you stack even just 48 people in one Keep or Outpost, the ping skyrockets in search of the next galaxy over. Skills become things that just look pretty on your bar, movement looks like a poorly edited Claymation, and you sit back at your computer letting out a heavy sigh because that’s just about the extent of what you can do. And because of this, the forums, and zone, the community in general gets flooded with “anti-zerg” mentality and advocating warriors. I hate stacking, I hate fighting zergs, I hate when the game isn’t playable. Just like all of you.

But we’ve come to the point when a zerg is simply whenever you lose outnumbered, whether it be by a few or a dozen players. Quick, point and shout zerg! This mentality that has built up, and been encouraged by several players who have done nothing inside Cyrodiil but complain and keep to their corners of the map. It is plain toxic and not informative either. Zerg shaming has become a downright display of ignorance, no longer equitable.

I understand just as well as any of us, zergs are a problem. What I do not understand is reducing this games play to point and click on a siege weapon and removing the skills that allowed us to counter that. For those of you who do not know who I am, I am the GM of Vehemence (VE). I run 24 man raids every night.
The allotted group size in Cyrodiil, and yet I am constantly alongside my players accused of mindless zerging. Yet, every night the number of fights we do, the sheer numbers we face. I am outnumbered 8 out of ten times in any given situation in Cyrodiil. This is the fact of the game. Sometimes it works okay, sometimes it really sucks. It is not our fault, nor the players we are going up against that the game’s performance is poor.

Despite contending odds, we still manage to take objectives, defend objectives, sometimes with help sometimes alone. This is capable because of our teamwork and the skills available to us. I agreed that the “how many can I stack and who’s got a barrier” Meta is boring and needs a change. However, making the skill almost completely useless in raid play alongside nerfs to purge, is not the solution in my opinion. “The zerg is the problem so we’ll just make it so you can easily kill anything with siege and they won’t be able to defend themselves adequately.”

The game is slowly ever crawling to favoring the solo or smaller groups inside Cyrodiil. We are blaming the larger groups inside Cyrodiil for lagging the server and being “what’s wrong with the game.” Who do you think responds to the hordes of the opposing factions when it’s called out in zone? Who pushes back the faction that is on your front door? Who went out of their way to save that scroll? The guilds and groups inside Cyrodiil that run “larger” numbers when they are simply filling the group size inside Cyrodiil. And it cannot be argued that the larger groups are more successful than the smaller ones. Zergs aside, take 4 against 10, unless you’re dealing with a severe gap in skill the 10 are going to win and that’s how it should be. War is not a game of morale victories.

The mentality that has evolved inside this game is almost unbelievable. You are playing an RvR Game. We are all playing a game designed around taking objectives inside Cyrodiil that revolve around at the very least 18 man groups. This game does not support dueling or arenas (yet as they say.) And here we are shaming players and groups for playing the way it was intended…

Has anyone thought what Cyrodiil would like without all the large groups? Perfect right? You could all go do your solo and small man things to your hearts content inside an open world RvR realm where the Keeps simply become decorations on the map. A ghost town for your needs and desires. But we like playing this game too. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to play small. Nothing at all. You aren’t shamed or attacked for it. You aren’t blamed for things that are clearly out of your hands. And you also do nothing for your faction. You don’t take keeps. You don’t fight back. You don’t contribute to the score. You play alongside your faction's zergs and scold or you keep to your corners fighting duels while the map conflicts.

Where are we headed like this? Are we going to continue experiencing game changes that favor simplified play and how much siege you can set down? As a community there are no other options we can come to? No other solutions besides complaining and shaming and name-calling? This is what this game is becoming?

Do you think we enjoy the lag as well? Do you think I get into cyrodiil and immediately ask, “who can I stack with?!” I spend half my night making calls to avoid colliding with friendly guilds and I still end up surrounded by DC at times. You think I run 24 members so I can chase down 3 or 4 people in a field and exclaim, “Get rekt! We are so good!” That's it, I've been compiling footage for my Xv1 video for the past year and a half guys. No. We don’t play for that. It’s not fun to play in lag, but the next time you’re fighting “a zerg” take off your own zerg goggles and take a quick look around you. Chances are, you are surrounded by your own faction. Just because you aren’t grouped doesn’t mean you aren’t a large force. Taking objectives and defending in Cyrodiil against the masses would not be possible without large groups. You are inside an RvR game. There are going to be large groups, and it’s not our fault. We aren’t what’s wrong with this game. The mentality and hate inside the community is what’s wrong. If you didn’t have large groups in Cyrodiil what a sad place it would be. But we keep pushing for groups to get dissolved.

Food for thought:

Stacking is a problem right now because the game can’t handle it. If we can’t fix the lag right now, why not institute more objectives inside Cyrodiil required for scoring? Force factions to spread for teamwork. You’re always going to have that jerk who stacks a raid or two because L2P but are there no ways for us to create or force factions to spread? If all we have left to defend is Aleswell and EP is pushing from Bleakers. Where do you think these two factions will collide? And quite literally the factions will collide. Because there is no other objective to push now. The next course of action has already been decided. The game was designed with natural choke points in Cyrodiil without the actual ability to handle the confrontations. It’s not EP nor DCs fault for going towards the objective when there’s no other option provided. They are playing as intended.

The removal of Prox Det as a skill entirely. No matter how you look at this skill or how many times you want to change it, it favors the group. It will never favor the smaller force enough to justify it. This is by far the best group AoE ever given to group players.

The adjustment of Barrier and Purge to only effect group members with the possibility of a slight number reduction. Not a drastic drop to where it’s not even worth mentioning as an Alliance War Skill.

The abolition of AoE caps and return of dynamic ultimate. Without AoE cap reduction and dynamic ultimate regen returned to players, you would be able to fight larger forces more easily as your ultimate would generate faster and your damage would not be mitigated because they stacked raids.

Strengthen AoE damage across the board for all class based skills. Pull players away from the stale "impulse and steel tornado only please". Nerf steel tornado’s range and remove the execution proc completely.

Institution of completely group based effects. This would include heals, set bonus buffs(as they already implemented), and all Alliance War Skills and any skills that effect nearby allies. Encourage players to group, stop discouraging and shaming it. This game was made to play with a group, stop arguing it.

Do not adjust siege damage against the player further, revoke the idea that siege should drain resources as well. If this becomes nothing but a siege vs siege game, it will be the most boring pvp experience on the market right now. All siege effects should be purgable as an alliance war skill inside alliance war siege damage.

Adjustment of the mentality that groups are what’s wrong with this game. Remember you are playing an RvR game. This PvP is undeniably group based. It is not the group’s fault that the lag is present. That is a strictly development issue. And I’m not saying scream at ZOS either. Exercise some patience and grace. We are all playing this game, just because someone plays a way you don’t doesn’t even come close to making them wrong.

I love this game; I seriously have never had so much fun playing a game. During the frustrations, the lag, the disappointment, we are all still playing for some reason. We love this game. I don’t want to watch this game drift into a brain dead hate fest dumbing down the game every patch. If you ask a majority of players they will tell you something similar to, “just here waiting for the next game to come out.” Hearing that phrase always saddens me, I love playing this game, but what’s the point if no one wants to and the people who still will are going to constantly harass the way you play? I am starting to count myself among those waiting for something else, because I’m not quite sure where TESO is headed like this.
-Like a Bulbasir/Permarekt

@Wrobel @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno

In Cyrodil there is no GvG mechanic like other mmo, maybe you should ask ZOS to implement that .This game don't support big group playstyle.

Cyrodiil is designed to be Group v Group. The fact that people can 1vX or duel or other activities despite it being outside of the core design of PvP in this game is great. But the core mechanics of the game are Group v Group.

This is incorrect; cyrodiil is designed to be AvAvA and this is how DAOC was designed as well the game this one is directly trying to copy. AvA or RvR if you prefer encompasses all levels of pvp from 1v1 to ZergvsZerg.. That's what separates it from arena or battleground based pvp. Saying cyrodiil is just designed around group vs group is willfully misinformed about where this system of pvp came from and its intent.

This one time in DAOC camp...

Haha

Xsorus

Leovolao wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

booksmcread wrote: »

CITADALO wrote: »

x99Needles wrote: »

I am going to disclaim now; this is going to be quite a long post. I do not come to the forums often for various reasons. Exceptions being when I have something to say or in response to someone. Everyone has their two cents about what’s going on with this game, these are mine.

It is no secret that Cyrodiil is in a poor state. Between the constant lag issues, the stale “how many can I stack and who’s got barrier” Meta, and the discouraged or tired out leaving Cyrodiil at a frightening rate leaves Cyrodiil feeling just a little emptier than it was before. I can agree as I think most all of us can that something needs to change. I mean we all wish the lag would be “fixed” or just go away but the reality of the situation is that the game cannot currently operate as was intended. Say what you will about how it “should” work or how the game has been out for two years why can’t they get it together already. Things are not as simple as “fix” or “make it work”, they take time and I hope to god they do figure something out because the number one reason people stop playing is because they literally can’t play.

What I am more concerned about further each day I watch this game is where we are currently headed. The upcoming changes to Alliance War Skills and Siege Weapons inside Cyrodiil are excellent examples. We are reducing the effectiveness of skills meant to be used inside the alliance war and increasing the effectiveness of siege damage. Why? What’s the problem?

The problem is evident and easily explained with the such a simple word that is has become casually interpreted as the root of all of the game’s problems. Zerg.

“If people wouldn’t zerg.” “Zergs are the only reason it lags.” “Zergs ruin this game.”

Maybe so. It cannot be denied, when you stack even just 48 people in one Keep or Outpost, the ping skyrockets in search of the next galaxy over. Skills become things that just look pretty on your bar, movement looks like a poorly edited Claymation, and you sit back at your computer letting out a heavy sigh because that’s just about the extent of what you can do. And because of this, the forums, and zone, the community in general gets flooded with “anti-zerg” mentality and advocating warriors. I hate stacking, I hate fighting zergs, I hate when the game isn’t playable. Just like all of you.

But we’ve come to the point when a zerg is simply whenever you lose outnumbered, whether it be by a few or a dozen players. Quick, point and shout zerg! This mentality that has built up, and been encouraged by several players who have done nothing inside Cyrodiil but complain and keep to their corners of the map. It is plain toxic and not informative either. Zerg shaming has become a downright display of ignorance, no longer equitable.

I understand just as well as any of us, zergs are a problem. What I do not understand is reducing this games play to point and click on a siege weapon and removing the skills that allowed us to counter that. For those of you who do not know who I am, I am the GM of Vehemence (VE). I run 24 man raids every night.
The allotted group size in Cyrodiil, and yet I am constantly alongside my players accused of mindless zerging. Yet, every night the number of fights we do, the sheer numbers we face. I am outnumbered 8 out of ten times in any given situation in Cyrodiil. This is the fact of the game. Sometimes it works okay, sometimes it really sucks. It is not our fault, nor the players we are going up against that the game’s performance is poor.

Despite contending odds, we still manage to take objectives, defend objectives, sometimes with help sometimes alone. This is capable because of our teamwork and the skills available to us. I agreed that the “how many can I stack and who’s got a barrier” Meta is boring and needs a change. However, making the skill almost completely useless in raid play alongside nerfs to purge, is not the solution in my opinion. “The zerg is the problem so we’ll just make it so you can easily kill anything with siege and they won’t be able to defend themselves adequately.”

The game is slowly ever crawling to favoring the solo or smaller groups inside Cyrodiil. We are blaming the larger groups inside Cyrodiil for lagging the server and being “what’s wrong with the game.” Who do you think responds to the hordes of the opposing factions when it’s called out in zone? Who pushes back the faction that is on your front door? Who went out of their way to save that scroll? The guilds and groups inside Cyrodiil that run “larger” numbers when they are simply filling the group size inside Cyrodiil. And it cannot be argued that the larger groups are more successful than the smaller ones. Zergs aside, take 4 against 10, unless you’re dealing with a severe gap in skill the 10 are going to win and that’s how it should be. War is not a game of morale victories.

The mentality that has evolved inside this game is almost unbelievable. You are playing an RvR Game. We are all playing a game designed around taking objectives inside Cyrodiil that revolve around at the very least 18 man groups. This game does not support dueling or arenas (yet as they say.) And here we are shaming players and groups for playing the way it was intended…

Has anyone thought what Cyrodiil would like without all the large groups? Perfect right? You could all go do your solo and small man things to your hearts content inside an open world RvR realm where the Keeps simply become decorations on the map. A ghost town for your needs and desires. But we like playing this game too. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to play small. Nothing at all. You aren’t shamed or attacked for it. You aren’t blamed for things that are clearly out of your hands. And you also do nothing for your faction. You don’t take keeps. You don’t fight back. You don’t contribute to the score. You play alongside your faction's zergs and scold or you keep to your corners fighting duels while the map conflicts.

Where are we headed like this? Are we going to continue experiencing game changes that favor simplified play and how much siege you can set down? As a community there are no other options we can come to? No other solutions besides complaining and shaming and name-calling? This is what this game is becoming?

Do you think we enjoy the lag as well? Do you think I get into cyrodiil and immediately ask, “who can I stack with?!” I spend half my night making calls to avoid colliding with friendly guilds and I still end up surrounded by DC at times. You think I run 24 members so I can chase down 3 or 4 people in a field and exclaim, “Get rekt! We are so good!” That's it, I've been compiling footage for my Xv1 video for the past year and a half guys. No. We don’t play for that. It’s not fun to play in lag, but the next time you’re fighting “a zerg” take off your own zerg goggles and take a quick look around you. Chances are, you are surrounded by your own faction. Just because you aren’t grouped doesn’t mean you aren’t a large force. Taking objectives and defending in Cyrodiil against the masses would not be possible without large groups. You are inside an RvR game. There are going to be large groups, and it’s not our fault. We aren’t what’s wrong with this game. The mentality and hate inside the community is what’s wrong. If you didn’t have large groups in Cyrodiil what a sad place it would be. But we keep pushing for groups to get dissolved.

Food for thought:

Stacking is a problem right now because the game can’t handle it. If we can’t fix the lag right now, why not institute more objectives inside Cyrodiil required for scoring? Force factions to spread for teamwork. You’re always going to have that jerk who stacks a raid or two because L2P but are there no ways for us to create or force factions to spread? If all we have left to defend is Aleswell and EP is pushing from Bleakers. Where do you think these two factions will collide? And quite literally the factions will collide. Because there is no other objective to push now. The next course of action has already been decided. The game was designed with natural choke points in Cyrodiil without the actual ability to handle the confrontations. It’s not EP nor DCs fault for going towards the objective when there’s no other option provided. They are playing as intended.

The removal of Prox Det as a skill entirely. No matter how you look at this skill or how many times you want to change it, it favors the group. It will never favor the smaller force enough to justify it. This is by far the best group AoE ever given to group players.

The adjustment of Barrier and Purge to only effect group members with the possibility of a slight number reduction. Not a drastic drop to where it’s not even worth mentioning as an Alliance War Skill.

The abolition of AoE caps and return of dynamic ultimate. Without AoE cap reduction and dynamic ultimate regen returned to players, you would be able to fight larger forces more easily as your ultimate would generate faster and your damage would not be mitigated because they stacked raids.

Strengthen AoE damage across the board for all class based skills. Pull players away from the stale "impulse and steel tornado only please". Nerf steel tornado’s range and remove the execution proc completely.

Institution of completely group based effects. This would include heals, set bonus buffs(as they already implemented), and all Alliance War Skills and any skills that effect nearby allies. Encourage players to group, stop discouraging and shaming it. This game was made to play with a group, stop arguing it.

Do not adjust siege damage against the player further, revoke the idea that siege should drain resources as well. If this becomes nothing but a siege vs siege game, it will be the most boring pvp experience on the market right now. All siege effects should be purgable as an alliance war skill inside alliance war siege damage.

Adjustment of the mentality that groups are what’s wrong with this game. Remember you are playing an RvR game. This PvP is undeniably group based. It is not the group’s fault that the lag is present. That is a strictly development issue. And I’m not saying scream at ZOS either. Exercise some patience and grace. We are all playing this game, just because someone plays a way you don’t doesn’t even come close to making them wrong.

I love this game; I seriously have never had so much fun playing a game. During the frustrations, the lag, the disappointment, we are all still playing for some reason. We love this game. I don’t want to watch this game drift into a brain dead hate fest dumbing down the game every patch. If you ask a majority of players they will tell you something similar to, “just here waiting for the next game to come out.” Hearing that phrase always saddens me, I love playing this game, but what’s the point if no one wants to and the people who still will are going to constantly harass the way you play? I am starting to count myself among those waiting for something else, because I’m not quite sure where TESO is headed like this.
-Like a Bulbasir/Permarekt

@Wrobel @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno

In Cyrodil there is no GvG mechanic like other mmo, maybe you should ask ZOS to implement that .This game don't support big group playstyle.

Cyrodiil is designed to be Group v Group. The fact that people can 1vX or duel or other activities despite it being outside of the core design of PvP in this game is great. But the core mechanics of the game are Group v Group.

This is incorrect; cyrodiil is designed to be AvAvA and this is how DAOC was designed as well the game this one is directly trying to copy. AvA or RvR if you prefer encompasses all levels of pvp from 1v1 to ZergvsZerg.. That's what separates it from arena or battleground based pvp. Saying cyrodiil is just designed around group vs group is willfully misinformed about where this system of pvp came from and its intent.

This one time in DAOC camp...

Yes..This one time in the game this game directly tries to copy right down to the number of keeps and objectives at said keeps who happens to have one of the Lead Developers of that game as its PvP Lead Developer.

/facepalm

Xsorus

Teargrants wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

And, of course, scouting.

There is lots of gameplay for solo/duo/small groups out there.

Solo players are only useful in scout rolls if they are in group and TS with a raid. Just being in TS and not in group results in a big loss in effectiveness because you can't see exactly where your group is if you leave LOS. knowing your group's position is key to making meaningful callouts because you can direct them how to react instead of just calling out enemies. This only accounts for seconds in reaction time, but the streamlining is very powerful in a meta where group vs group fights are decided in seconds.

Source: this is what I do every day.

This is how DAOC was of course..People bring up objectives cause they're morons..not realizing that in DAOC you pretty much couldn't solo any Objectives by yourself...But the Small Man and Solo Gameplay was just as much part of RvR as Zerg vs Zerg was.

Manoekin

As for siege changes... let's look at what actually happened the last time we buffed siege.



Good times good times.

KenaPKK

Manoekin wrote: »

As for siege changes... let's look at what actually happened the last time we buffed siege.



Good times good times.

.....................................................................ZoS pls no.

krim

Manoekin wrote: »

As for siege changes... let's look at what actually happened the last time we buffed siege.



Good times good times.

There goes Alacrity exploiting again.

Xsorus

Manoekin wrote: »

As for siege changes... let's look at what actually happened the last time we buffed siege.



Good times good times.

I'm confused...is this video suppose to show something bad?

I see lots of people dying in a choke point that's being bombarded by siege?

That's pretty much suppose to be what happens....Not them stack up and run through it like nothing is going on.

Leovolao

Xsorus wrote: »

Leovolao wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

booksmcread wrote: »

CITADALO wrote: »

x99Needles wrote: »

I am going to disclaim now; this is going to be quite a long post. I do not come to the forums often for various reasons. Exceptions being when I have something to say or in response to someone. Everyone has their two cents about what’s going on with this game, these are mine.

It is no secret that Cyrodiil is in a poor state. Between the constant lag issues, the stale “how many can I stack and who’s got barrier” Meta, and the discouraged or tired out leaving Cyrodiil at a frightening rate leaves Cyrodiil feeling just a little emptier than it was before. I can agree as I think most all of us can that something needs to change. I mean we all wish the lag would be “fixed” or just go away but the reality of the situation is that the game cannot currently operate as was intended. Say what you will about how it “should” work or how the game has been out for two years why can’t they get it together already. Things are not as simple as “fix” or “make it work”, they take time and I hope to god they do figure something out because the number one reason people stop playing is because they literally can’t play.

What I am more concerned about further each day I watch this game is where we are currently headed. The upcoming changes to Alliance War Skills and Siege Weapons inside Cyrodiil are excellent examples. We are reducing the effectiveness of skills meant to be used inside the alliance war and increasing the effectiveness of siege damage. Why? What’s the problem?

The problem is evident and easily explained with the such a simple word that is has become casually interpreted as the root of all of the game’s problems. Zerg.

“If people wouldn’t zerg.” “Zergs are the only reason it lags.” “Zergs ruin this game.”

Maybe so. It cannot be denied, when you stack even just 48 people in one Keep or Outpost, the ping skyrockets in search of the next galaxy over. Skills become things that just look pretty on your bar, movement looks like a poorly edited Claymation, and you sit back at your computer letting out a heavy sigh because that’s just about the extent of what you can do. And because of this, the forums, and zone, the community in general gets flooded with “anti-zerg” mentality and advocating warriors. I hate stacking, I hate fighting zergs, I hate when the game isn’t playable. Just like all of you.

But we’ve come to the point when a zerg is simply whenever you lose outnumbered, whether it be by a few or a dozen players. Quick, point and shout zerg! This mentality that has built up, and been encouraged by several players who have done nothing inside Cyrodiil but complain and keep to their corners of the map. It is plain toxic and not informative either. Zerg shaming has become a downright display of ignorance, no longer equitable.

I understand just as well as any of us, zergs are a problem. What I do not understand is reducing this games play to point and click on a siege weapon and removing the skills that allowed us to counter that. For those of you who do not know who I am, I am the GM of Vehemence (VE). I run 24 man raids every night.
The allotted group size in Cyrodiil, and yet I am constantly alongside my players accused of mindless zerging. Yet, every night the number of fights we do, the sheer numbers we face. I am outnumbered 8 out of ten times in any given situation in Cyrodiil. This is the fact of the game. Sometimes it works okay, sometimes it really sucks. It is not our fault, nor the players we are going up against that the game’s performance is poor.

Despite contending odds, we still manage to take objectives, defend objectives, sometimes with help sometimes alone. This is capable because of our teamwork and the skills available to us. I agreed that the “how many can I stack and who’s got a barrier” Meta is boring and needs a change. However, making the skill almost completely useless in raid play alongside nerfs to purge, is not the solution in my opinion. “The zerg is the problem so we’ll just make it so you can easily kill anything with siege and they won’t be able to defend themselves adequately.”

The game is slowly ever crawling to favoring the solo or smaller groups inside Cyrodiil. We are blaming the larger groups inside Cyrodiil for lagging the server and being “what’s wrong with the game.” Who do you think responds to the hordes of the opposing factions when it’s called out in zone? Who pushes back the faction that is on your front door? Who went out of their way to save that scroll? The guilds and groups inside Cyrodiil that run “larger” numbers when they are simply filling the group size inside Cyrodiil. And it cannot be argued that the larger groups are more successful than the smaller ones. Zergs aside, take 4 against 10, unless you’re dealing with a severe gap in skill the 10 are going to win and that’s how it should be. War is not a game of morale victories.

The mentality that has evolved inside this game is almost unbelievable. You are playing an RvR Game. We are all playing a game designed around taking objectives inside Cyrodiil that revolve around at the very least 18 man groups. This game does not support dueling or arenas (yet as they say.) And here we are shaming players and groups for playing the way it was intended…

Has anyone thought what Cyrodiil would like without all the large groups? Perfect right? You could all go do your solo and small man things to your hearts content inside an open world RvR realm where the Keeps simply become decorations on the map. A ghost town for your needs and desires. But we like playing this game too. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to play small. Nothing at all. You aren’t shamed or attacked for it. You aren’t blamed for things that are clearly out of your hands. And you also do nothing for your faction. You don’t take keeps. You don’t fight back. You don’t contribute to the score. You play alongside your faction's zergs and scold or you keep to your corners fighting duels while the map conflicts.

Where are we headed like this? Are we going to continue experiencing game changes that favor simplified play and how much siege you can set down? As a community there are no other options we can come to? No other solutions besides complaining and shaming and name-calling? This is what this game is becoming?

Do you think we enjoy the lag as well? Do you think I get into cyrodiil and immediately ask, “who can I stack with?!” I spend half my night making calls to avoid colliding with friendly guilds and I still end up surrounded by DC at times. You think I run 24 members so I can chase down 3 or 4 people in a field and exclaim, “Get rekt! We are so good!” That's it, I've been compiling footage for my Xv1 video for the past year and a half guys. No. We don’t play for that. It’s not fun to play in lag, but the next time you’re fighting “a zerg” take off your own zerg goggles and take a quick look around you. Chances are, you are surrounded by your own faction. Just because you aren’t grouped doesn’t mean you aren’t a large force. Taking objectives and defending in Cyrodiil against the masses would not be possible without large groups. You are inside an RvR game. There are going to be large groups, and it’s not our fault. We aren’t what’s wrong with this game. The mentality and hate inside the community is what’s wrong. If you didn’t have large groups in Cyrodiil what a sad place it would be. But we keep pushing for groups to get dissolved.

Food for thought:

Stacking is a problem right now because the game can’t handle it. If we can’t fix the lag right now, why not institute more objectives inside Cyrodiil required for scoring? Force factions to spread for teamwork. You’re always going to have that jerk who stacks a raid or two because L2P but are there no ways for us to create or force factions to spread? If all we have left to defend is Aleswell and EP is pushing from Bleakers. Where do you think these two factions will collide? And quite literally the factions will collide. Because there is no other objective to push now. The next course of action has already been decided. The game was designed with natural choke points in Cyrodiil without the actual ability to handle the confrontations. It’s not EP nor DCs fault for going towards the objective when there’s no other option provided. They are playing as intended.

The removal of Prox Det as a skill entirely. No matter how you look at this skill or how many times you want to change it, it favors the group. It will never favor the smaller force enough to justify it. This is by far the best group AoE ever given to group players.

The adjustment of Barrier and Purge to only effect group members with the possibility of a slight number reduction. Not a drastic drop to where it’s not even worth mentioning as an Alliance War Skill.

The abolition of AoE caps and return of dynamic ultimate. Without AoE cap reduction and dynamic ultimate regen returned to players, you would be able to fight larger forces more easily as your ultimate would generate faster and your damage would not be mitigated because they stacked raids.

Strengthen AoE damage across the board for all class based skills. Pull players away from the stale "impulse and steel tornado only please". Nerf steel tornado’s range and remove the execution proc completely.

Institution of completely group based effects. This would include heals, set bonus buffs(as they already implemented), and all Alliance War Skills and any skills that effect nearby allies. Encourage players to group, stop discouraging and shaming it. This game was made to play with a group, stop arguing it.

Do not adjust siege damage against the player further, revoke the idea that siege should drain resources as well. If this becomes nothing but a siege vs siege game, it will be the most boring pvp experience on the market right now. All siege effects should be purgable as an alliance war skill inside alliance war siege damage.

Adjustment of the mentality that groups are what’s wrong with this game. Remember you are playing an RvR game. This PvP is undeniably group based. It is not the group’s fault that the lag is present. That is a strictly development issue. And I’m not saying scream at ZOS either. Exercise some patience and grace. We are all playing this game, just because someone plays a way you don’t doesn’t even come close to making them wrong.

I love this game; I seriously have never had so much fun playing a game. During the frustrations, the lag, the disappointment, we are all still playing for some reason. We love this game. I don’t want to watch this game drift into a brain dead hate fest dumbing down the game every patch. If you ask a majority of players they will tell you something similar to, “just here waiting for the next game to come out.” Hearing that phrase always saddens me, I love playing this game, but what’s the point if no one wants to and the people who still will are going to constantly harass the way you play? I am starting to count myself among those waiting for something else, because I’m not quite sure where TESO is headed like this.
-Like a Bulbasir/Permarekt

@Wrobel @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno

In Cyrodil there is no GvG mechanic like other mmo, maybe you should ask ZOS to implement that .This game don't support big group playstyle.

Cyrodiil is designed to be Group v Group. The fact that people can 1vX or duel or other activities despite it being outside of the core design of PvP in this game is great. But the core mechanics of the game are Group v Group.

This is incorrect; cyrodiil is designed to be AvAvA and this is how DAOC was designed as well the game this one is directly trying to copy. AvA or RvR if you prefer encompasses all levels of pvp from 1v1 to ZergvsZerg.. That's what separates it from arena or battleground based pvp. Saying cyrodiil is just designed around group vs group is willfully misinformed about where this system of pvp came from and its intent.

This one time in DAOC camp...

Yes..This one time in the game this game directly tries to copy right down to the number of keeps and objectives at said keeps who happens to have one of the Lead Developers of that game as its PvP Lead Developer.

/facepalm

This other time at DAOC camp...

MountainHound

Keep the siege buffs but give us ladders to climb into the courtyard!

In all seriousness I have considered ways to try and spread people out, one could be to decrease the timing the scoring of ticks happen. This would make it more viable to go and hold a resource in the enemy territory for x amount of time as a group of 1-4. EG if a tick happens every 10 minutes, you could potentially score your alliance a point every 10 minutes by holding down a resource for those 10 minutes and cause the faction running in big groups problems if they don't split up, eg would you really need to send 24 people to a farm to get it back if there is 4 people at it? I know people say they do atm but that is because if nothing is happening on the map, players are naturally drawn to it. If a faction sees they are losing 2/3 resources frequently, it is more beneficial / "smart" for those groups to split up and defend or loose 2 points to 1 every 10 minutes.

Manoekin

Xsorus wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

As for siege changes... let's look at what actually happened the last time we buffed siege.



Good times good times.

I'm confused...is this video suppose to show something bad?

I see lots of people dying in a choke point that's being bombarded by siege?

That's pretty much suppose to be what happens....Not them stack up and run through it like nothing is going on.

It's not PvP. Dat left click spec is great though.

Minno

Manoekin wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

As for siege changes... let's look at what actually happened the last time we buffed siege.



Good times good times.

I'm confused...is this video suppose to show something bad?

I see lots of people dying in a choke point that's being bombarded by siege?

That's pretty much suppose to be what happens....Not them stack up and run through it like nothing is going on.

It's not PvP. Dat left click spec is great though.

True. But who attacks front door with defenders?! I remember when that used to be a death sentence.

Morozov

Satiar wrote: »

Was not expecting a Bulb thread, but a lot in there I agree with.

I love the idea of fixing Steel Tornado, bringing it in line with other AoEs. I'd love a meta where burst is not King, where purge isn't so strong that CCs, debuffs, DOTS and roots were something that mattered. Longer fights, more strategy. But alas, we seem to simply being going towards more burst, less sustain, more dumbed down gameplay...

It gives me a sad

as a former magDK I had to add a little extra

Poxheart

Minno wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »

You're so dishonest with yourself.. name one Cyrodiil objective for soloer's.

Resources can be captured and held for decent amounts of time by one or two players.

Ganking and anti-ganking are obviously part of the game design and can be done solo. IMO, lanes are intended to be full of solo hunters.

During keep takes and defenses, solo players can perform a wide variety of support roles -- including the disruption of reinforcements.

And, of course, scouting.

There is lots of gameplay for solo/duo/small groups out there.

Only viable objective with AP tangible rewards is resource taking.

They need an overhaul of cyro objectives in sync with AP gain review in order to offer players a balanced pvp environment.

Till then it will always be "damn zergs; solo players cry too much" partisanship.

We could offer our own sandbox rules, but in the end it's what the players are willing to support.

You know there's a problem with the PvP in a game when interdicting enemy actions through killing opposing players isn't considered a viable objective.

Manoekin

Minno wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

As for siege changes... let's look at what actually happened the last time we buffed siege.



Good times good times.

I'm confused...is this video suppose to show something bad?

I see lots of people dying in a choke point that's being bombarded by siege?

That's pretty much suppose to be what happens....Not them stack up and run through it like nothing is going on.

It's not PvP. Dat left click spec is great though.

True. But who attacks front door with defenders?! I remember when that used to be a death sentence.

Well they didn't know there was any defenders at the time, plus there was over 40 of them so they were feeling pretty confident I imagine if they did know. I'm pretty sure this was at least the first week of the siege changes if not the first day. Also, I attack front doors with defenders :P It's the easiest way to flag a keep before the hordes start flinging themselves off of the walls World War Z style. It's also a big F U when you win. It's not something I would recommend pug or less experienced groups do though because it is dangerous.

Minno

Manoekin wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

As for siege changes... let's look at what actually happened the last time we buffed siege.



Good times good times.

I'm confused...is this video suppose to show something bad?

I see lots of people dying in a choke point that's being bombarded by siege?

That's pretty much suppose to be what happens....Not them stack up and run through it like nothing is going on.

It's not PvP. Dat left click spec is great though.

True. But who attacks front door with defenders?! I remember when that used to be a death sentence.

Well they didn't know there was any defenders at the time, plus there was over 40 of them so they were feeling pretty confident I imagine if they did know. I'm pretty sure this was at least the first week of the siege changes if not the first day. Also, I attack front doors with defenders :P It's the easiest way to flag a keep before the hordes start flinging themselves off of the walls World War Z style. It's also a big F U when you win. It's not something I would recommend pug or less experienced groups do though because it is dangerous.

Haha yea I figured they might not have known. That front door attack should separate pug from guild group with a viable chance for death.

I remember when people feared seige during keep runs, watched their step and kept moving. Just saying that aspect of cyro is missing.

Manoekin

Minno wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

As for siege changes... let's look at what actually happened the last time we buffed siege.



Good times good times.

I'm confused...is this video suppose to show something bad?

I see lots of people dying in a choke point that's being bombarded by siege?

That's pretty much suppose to be what happens....Not them stack up and run through it like nothing is going on.

It's not PvP. Dat left click spec is great though.

True. But who attacks front door with defenders?! I remember when that used to be a death sentence.

Well they didn't know there was any defenders at the time, plus there was over 40 of them so they were feeling pretty confident I imagine if they did know. I'm pretty sure this was at least the first week of the siege changes if not the first day. Also, I attack front doors with defenders :P It's the easiest way to flag a keep before the hordes start flinging themselves off of the walls World War Z style. It's also a big F U when you win. It's not something I would recommend pug or less experienced groups do though because it is dangerous.

Haha yea I figured they might not have known. That front door attack should separate pug from guild group with a viable chance for death.

I remember when people feared seige during keep runs, watched their step and kept moving. Just saying that aspect of cyro is missing.

I've never been vamp, so the only thing I've ever feared is oils until the first siege changes. Even as a non-vamp, fire trebs(bugged) and stone trebs were hitting 80% of your health. For vamps fire trebs were instant death. That kind of gameplay is not really fun especially when you don't know if it's friendly or enemy siege. If that's what we want to go back to I'll deal with it, but to me it's not PvP. I'd rather have a middle ground instead of where we are and where we are going.

Minno

Manoekin wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

As for siege changes... let's look at what actually happened the last time we buffed siege.



Good times good times.

I'm confused...is this video suppose to show something bad?

I see lots of people dying in a choke point that's being bombarded by siege?

That's pretty much suppose to be what happens....Not them stack up and run through it like nothing is going on.

It's not PvP. Dat left click spec is great though.

True. But who attacks front door with defenders?! I remember when that used to be a death sentence.

Well they didn't know there was any defenders at the time, plus there was over 40 of them so they were feeling pretty confident I imagine if they did know. I'm pretty sure this was at least the first week of the siege changes if not the first day. Also, I attack front doors with defenders :P It's the easiest way to flag a keep before the hordes start flinging themselves off of the walls World War Z style. It's also a big F U when you win. It's not something I would recommend pug or less experienced groups do though because it is dangerous.

Haha yea I figured they might not have known. That front door attack should separate pug from guild group with a viable chance for death.

I remember when people feared seige during keep runs, watched their step and kept moving. Just saying that aspect of cyro is missing.

I've never been vamp, so the only thing I've ever feared is oils until the first siege changes. Even as a non-vamp, fire trebs(bugged) and stone trebs were hitting 80% of your health. For vamps fire trebs were instant death. That kind of gameplay is not really fun especially when you don't know if it's friendly or enemy siege. If that's what we want to go back to I'll deal with it, but to me it's not PvP. I'd rather have a middle ground instead of where we are and where we are going.

It's a struggle not knowing if ZOS sees this as a leaderboard style PVP with structure, balance, player oriented game play, or if its meant to be sandbox-warfare.

Ghostbane

spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

booksmcread wrote: »

CITADALO wrote: »

x99Needles wrote: »

I am going to disclaim now; this is going to be quite a long post. I do not come to the forums often for various reasons. Exceptions being when I have something to say or in response to someone. Everyone has their two cents about what’s going on with this game, these are mine.

It is no secret that Cyrodiil is in a poor state. Between the constant lag issues, the stale “how many can I stack and who’s got barrier” Meta, and the discouraged or tired out leaving Cyrodiil at a frightening rate leaves Cyrodiil feeling just a little emptier than it was before. I can agree as I think most all of us can that something needs to change. I mean we all wish the lag would be “fixed” or just go away but the reality of the situation is that the game cannot currently operate as was intended. Say what you will about how it “should” work or how the game has been out for two years why can’t they get it together already. Things are not as simple as “fix” or “make it work”, they take time and I hope to god they do figure something out because the number one reason people stop playing is because they literally can’t play.

What I am more concerned about further each day I watch this game is where we are currently headed. The upcoming changes to Alliance War Skills and Siege Weapons inside Cyrodiil are excellent examples. We are reducing the effectiveness of skills meant to be used inside the alliance war and increasing the effectiveness of siege damage. Why? What’s the problem?

The problem is evident and easily explained with the such a simple word that is has become casually interpreted as the root of all of the game’s problems. Zerg.

“If people wouldn’t zerg.” “Zergs are the only reason it lags.” “Zergs ruin this game.”

Maybe so. It cannot be denied, when you stack even just 48 people in one Keep or Outpost, the ping skyrockets in search of the next galaxy over. Skills become things that just look pretty on your bar, movement looks like a poorly edited Claymation, and you sit back at your computer letting out a heavy sigh because that’s just about the extent of what you can do. And because of this, the forums, and zone, the community in general gets flooded with “anti-zerg” mentality and advocating warriors. I hate stacking, I hate fighting zergs, I hate when the game isn’t playable. Just like all of you.

But we’ve come to the point when a zerg is simply whenever you lose outnumbered, whether it be by a few or a dozen players. Quick, point and shout zerg! This mentality that has built up, and been encouraged by several players who have done nothing inside Cyrodiil but complain and keep to their corners of the map. It is plain toxic and not informative either. Zerg shaming has become a downright display of ignorance, no longer equitable.

I understand just as well as any of us, zergs are a problem. What I do not understand is reducing this games play to point and click on a siege weapon and removing the skills that allowed us to counter that. For those of you who do not know who I am, I am the GM of Vehemence (VE). I run 24 man raids every night.
The allotted group size in Cyrodiil, and yet I am constantly alongside my players accused of mindless zerging. Yet, every night the number of fights we do, the sheer numbers we face. I am outnumbered 8 out of ten times in any given situation in Cyrodiil. This is the fact of the game. Sometimes it works okay, sometimes it really sucks. It is not our fault, nor the players we are going up against that the game’s performance is poor.

Despite contending odds, we still manage to take objectives, defend objectives, sometimes with help sometimes alone. This is capable because of our teamwork and the skills available to us. I agreed that the “how many can I stack and who’s got a barrier” Meta is boring and needs a change. However, making the skill almost completely useless in raid play alongside nerfs to purge, is not the solution in my opinion. “The zerg is the problem so we’ll just make it so you can easily kill anything with siege and they won’t be able to defend themselves adequately.”

The game is slowly ever crawling to favoring the solo or smaller groups inside Cyrodiil. We are blaming the larger groups inside Cyrodiil for lagging the server and being “what’s wrong with the game.” Who do you think responds to the hordes of the opposing factions when it’s called out in zone? Who pushes back the faction that is on your front door? Who went out of their way to save that scroll? The guilds and groups inside Cyrodiil that run “larger” numbers when they are simply filling the group size inside Cyrodiil. And it cannot be argued that the larger groups are more successful than the smaller ones. Zergs aside, take 4 against 10, unless you’re dealing with a severe gap in skill the 10 are going to win and that’s how it should be. War is not a game of morale victories.

The mentality that has evolved inside this game is almost unbelievable. You are playing an RvR Game. We are all playing a game designed around taking objectives inside Cyrodiil that revolve around at the very least 18 man groups. This game does not support dueling or arenas (yet as they say.) And here we are shaming players and groups for playing the way it was intended…

Has anyone thought what Cyrodiil would like without all the large groups? Perfect right? You could all go do your solo and small man things to your hearts content inside an open world RvR realm where the Keeps simply become decorations on the map. A ghost town for your needs and desires. But we like playing this game too. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to play small. Nothing at all. You aren’t shamed or attacked for it. You aren’t blamed for things that are clearly out of your hands. And you also do nothing for your faction. You don’t take keeps. You don’t fight back. You don’t contribute to the score. You play alongside your faction's zergs and scold or you keep to your corners fighting duels while the map conflicts.

Where are we headed like this? Are we going to continue experiencing game changes that favor simplified play and how much siege you can set down? As a community there are no other options we can come to? No other solutions besides complaining and shaming and name-calling? This is what this game is becoming?

Do you think we enjoy the lag as well? Do you think I get into cyrodiil and immediately ask, “who can I stack with?!” I spend half my night making calls to avoid colliding with friendly guilds and I still end up surrounded by DC at times. You think I run 24 members so I can chase down 3 or 4 people in a field and exclaim, “Get rekt! We are so good!” That's it, I've been compiling footage for my Xv1 video for the past year and a half guys. No. We don’t play for that. It’s not fun to play in lag, but the next time you’re fighting “a zerg” take off your own zerg goggles and take a quick look around you. Chances are, you are surrounded by your own faction. Just because you aren’t grouped doesn’t mean you aren’t a large force. Taking objectives and defending in Cyrodiil against the masses would not be possible without large groups. You are inside an RvR game. There are going to be large groups, and it’s not our fault. We aren’t what’s wrong with this game. The mentality and hate inside the community is what’s wrong. If you didn’t have large groups in Cyrodiil what a sad place it would be. But we keep pushing for groups to get dissolved.

Food for thought:

Stacking is a problem right now because the game can’t handle it. If we can’t fix the lag right now, why not institute more objectives inside Cyrodiil required for scoring? Force factions to spread for teamwork. You’re always going to have that jerk who stacks a raid or two because L2P but are there no ways for us to create or force factions to spread? If all we have left to defend is Aleswell and EP is pushing from Bleakers. Where do you think these two factions will collide? And quite literally the factions will collide. Because there is no other objective to push now. The next course of action has already been decided. The game was designed with natural choke points in Cyrodiil without the actual ability to handle the confrontations. It’s not EP nor DCs fault for going towards the objective when there’s no other option provided. They are playing as intended.

The removal of Prox Det as a skill entirely. No matter how you look at this skill or how many times you want to change it, it favors the group. It will never favor the smaller force enough to justify it. This is by far the best group AoE ever given to group players.

The adjustment of Barrier and Purge to only effect group members with the possibility of a slight number reduction. Not a drastic drop to where it’s not even worth mentioning as an Alliance War Skill.

The abolition of AoE caps and return of dynamic ultimate. Without AoE cap reduction and dynamic ultimate regen returned to players, you would be able to fight larger forces more easily as your ultimate would generate faster and your damage would not be mitigated because they stacked raids.

Strengthen AoE damage across the board for all class based skills. Pull players away from the stale "impulse and steel tornado only please". Nerf steel tornado’s range and remove the execution proc completely.

Institution of completely group based effects. This would include heals, set bonus buffs(as they already implemented), and all Alliance War Skills and any skills that effect nearby allies. Encourage players to group, stop discouraging and shaming it. This game was made to play with a group, stop arguing it.

Do not adjust siege damage against the player further, revoke the idea that siege should drain resources as well. If this becomes nothing but a siege vs siege game, it will be the most boring pvp experience on the market right now. All siege effects should be purgable as an alliance war skill inside alliance war siege damage.

Adjustment of the mentality that groups are what’s wrong with this game. Remember you are playing an RvR game. This PvP is undeniably group based. It is not the group’s fault that the lag is present. That is a strictly development issue. And I’m not saying scream at ZOS either. Exercise some patience and grace. We are all playing this game, just because someone plays a way you don’t doesn’t even come close to making them wrong.

I love this game; I seriously have never had so much fun playing a game. During the frustrations, the lag, the disappointment, we are all still playing for some reason. We love this game. I don’t want to watch this game drift into a brain dead hate fest dumbing down the game every patch. If you ask a majority of players they will tell you something similar to, “just here waiting for the next game to come out.” Hearing that phrase always saddens me, I love playing this game, but what’s the point if no one wants to and the people who still will are going to constantly harass the way you play? I am starting to count myself among those waiting for something else, because I’m not quite sure where TESO is headed like this.
-Like a Bulbasir/Permarekt

@Wrobel @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno

In Cyrodil there is no GvG mechanic like other mmo, maybe you should ask ZOS to implement that .This game don't support big group playstyle.

Cyrodiil is designed to be Group v Group. The fact that people can 1vX or duel or other activities despite it being outside of the core design of PvP in this game is great. But the core mechanics of the game are Group v Group.

This is incorrect; cyrodiil is designed to be AvAvA and this is how DAOC was designed as well the game this one is directly trying to copy. AvA or RvR if you prefer encompasses all levels of pvp from 1v1 to ZergvsZerg.. That's what separates it from arena or battleground based pvp. Saying cyrodiil is just designed around group vs group is willfully misinformed about where this system of pvp came from and its intent.

You're so dishonest with yourself.. name one Cyrodiil objective for soloer's.

Scout Report?