Alright... We've fixed all the other ways of spamming to avoid damage, its time to look at NB cloak

rordogg

Levo18 wrote: »

NBs have no shield no decent self heal NOTHING except cloak. If cloak gets nerfed in anyway NBs will be totally useless

You only have some of the most insane burst in game at the moment and a way to almost nonstop avoid being hit. Please tell us more about how bad NB would be without spamming cloak. And let's not pretend magicka NBs don't have a way to constantly heal themselves...

cschwingeb14_ESO

The only problem with BoL spam is that Major Defile is so hard to get access to for some classes, and Minor Defile is super inconsistent. Adding an ability that actually does disease damage would help tons

rordogg

rordogg wrote: »

Levo18 wrote: »

NBs have no shield no decent self heal NOTHING except cloak. If cloak gets nerfed in anyway NBs will be totally useless

You only have some of the most insane burst in game at the moment and a way to almost nonstop avoid being hit. Please tell us more about how bad NB would be without spamming cloak. And let's not pretend magicka NBs don't have a way to constantly heal themselves...

Derra

Yonkit wrote: »

Detect Potions, AoEs, Flare, Caltrops, Piercing Mark, Radiant Magelight.

It's your own fault for not using these counters to Cloak, it's not a build issue, because he obviously couldn't kill you, just need Detect Potions or another counter to finish him off when he runs away.

The fact alone that we still have people like you running around screaming radiant magelight would be a vaible counter to cloak along with impuls with 6m aoe range while every magica nb has up to 65% increased movement speed in stealth is reason enough to give cloak the same treatment bolt escape got.

Derra

Soris wrote: »

Dont even take serious people who say use aoe in IC. Pots and that flare in alliance war skill line is your best bet. In fact, that flare is really good.

And I agree cloak should get same treatment as bolt escape

The problem with the flare skill is: It´s a counter to 1 skill of 1 class. It does not serve any purpose apart from fighting nightblades.
Ofc nightblades like this approach bc it´s hardly justified to ever slot this (vaible for it´s purpose) skill in an all around build - because you simply lack space to do so.

Counters to a skill need to have more purpose than being a counter to one specific skill.

rordogg

Derra wrote: »

Yonkit wrote: »

Detect Potions, AoEs, Flare, Caltrops, Piercing Mark, Radiant Magelight.

It's your own fault for not using these counters to Cloak, it's not a build issue, because he obviously couldn't kill you, just need Detect Potions or another counter to finish him off when he runs away.

The fact alone that we still have people like you running around screaming radiant magelight would be a vaible counter to cloak along with impuls with 6m aoe range while every magica nb has up to 65% increased movement speed in stealth is reason enough to give cloak the same treatment bolt escape got.

This^^^

rordogg

Derra wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

Dont even take serious people who say use aoe in IC. Pots and that flare in alliance war skill line is your best bet. In fact, that flare is really good.

And I agree cloak should get same treatment as bolt escape

The problem with the flare skill is: It´s a counter to 1 skill of 1 class. It does not serve any purpose apart from fighting nightblades.
Ofc nightblades like this approach bc it´s hardly justified to ever slot this (vaible for it´s purpose) skill in an all around build - because you simply lack space to do so.

Counters to a skill need to have more purpose than being a counter to one specific skill.

And this, it's *** I should be required to equip one skill specifically just for NB while all my other skills work against all other classes

rordogg

Here's another idea. Make all aoes have the same effect on a NB as flare does. So our aoes can actually successfully counter cloak like NBs claim they do.

newtinmpls

Yonkit wrote: »

if you aggro the boss but don't damage it, the second someone damages it, they'll immediately draw aggro, accidentally or not.

Oh thanks, I hadn't quite gotten that figured out yet.

Truewavesound

Have you ever played "Rock, paper, scissors"?

josh.lackey_ESO

I think this is seriously a problem with the design of the IC Sewers more than anything. Cloak being used as a combat tactic or a retreat tactic is an issue that has been discussed at great length. What the OP describes is distinct from those general issues: it's beyond the scope of the normal of cloak vs. counter-cloak discussion.

The problem isn't with the cloaking itself, it's with the hostile NPCs that get involved. Cloak is being used as a "let me dump all this NPC aggro on you" tactic. That's something we didn't see much of before in Cyrodiil, because no one did much PvE content. PvP should be competitive, and sure there are cheap tactics -- not everyone has to have a sense of fair play all the time. But the Sewers reward the cloak spam, cheap-gank playstyle far too much.

Stikato

Cloak will eventually get the bolt escape / dodge treatment. Just a matter of time.

JDar

Sounds like you had trouble with a very good magicka nightblade. I'm sorry that you want good players to be nerfed so you can kill them more easily.

The more I think about it the more it sounds like you were plain outplayed and outsmarted.

WalksAmongShadows

Derra wrote: »

Yonkit wrote: »

Detect Potions, AoEs, Flare, Caltrops, Piercing Mark, Radiant Magelight.

It's your own fault for not using these counters to Cloak, it's not a build issue, because he obviously couldn't kill you, just need Detect Potions or another counter to finish him off when he runs away.

The fact alone that we still have people like you running around screaming radiant magelight would be a vaible counter to cloak along with impuls with 6m aoe range while every magica nb has up to 65% increased movement speed in stealth is reason enough to give cloak the same treatment bolt escape got.

If they have 65% increased movement speed in stealth, it means they are vampires and can be oneshotted by stamina builds. Neither can you give cloak the same treatment as bolt escape without completely destroying stamina builds. I find piercing mark rather useful to have on my skill bar even if it's only purpose is to prevent other nightblades cloaking. I have no problem with that, in fact I'm happy to have a counter against cloak even if it's very hard to fit, I usually have to sacrifice steel tornado or relentless focus for it.

Also, flare reveals every class in stealth, not just the nb. It's problematic that it's so high in support tree though.

I think if you want to give cloak 'bolt escape treatment', it should work like vanish in world of warcraft. I mean so that you can't break the invisibility of a cloaked nb by any means for it's duration, unless the nightblade attacks something. No more spamming currently very unreliable cloak for either stam or magicka nb. Imagine if bolt escape consumed your magicka but failed most of the time and teleported you only a couple meters forward.

rordogg

JDar wrote: »

Sounds like you had trouble with a very good magicka nightblade. I'm sorry that you want good players to be nerfed so you can kill them more easily.

The more I think about it the more it sounds like you were plain outplayed and outsmarted.

Lol not sure how you can logically support that. He literally had to run away every time and the only way he could finally get me is by dragging that boss over me. In no way is that skill.

Derra

WalksAmongShadows wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Yonkit wrote: »

Detect Potions, AoEs, Flare, Caltrops, Piercing Mark, Radiant Magelight.

It's your own fault for not using these counters to Cloak, it's not a build issue, because he obviously couldn't kill you, just need Detect Potions or another counter to finish him off when he runs away.

The fact alone that we still have people like you running around screaming radiant magelight would be a vaible counter to cloak along with impuls with 6m aoe range while every magica nb has up to 65% increased movement speed in stealth is reason enough to give cloak the same treatment bolt escape got.

If they have 65% increased movement speed in stealth, it means they are vampires and can be oneshotted by stamina builds. Neither can you give cloak the same treatment as bolt escape without completely destroying stamina builds. I find piercing mark rather useful to have on my skill bar even if it's only purpose is to prevent other nightblades cloaking. I have no problem with that, in fact I'm happy to have a counter against cloak even if it's very hard to fit, I usually have to sacrifice steel tornado or relentless focus for it.

Also, flare reveals every class in stealth, not just the nb. It's problematic that it's so high in support tree though.

I think if you want to give cloak 'bolt escape treatment', it should work like vanish in world of warcraft. I mean so that you can't break the invisibility of a cloaked nb by any means for it's duration, unless the nightblade attacks something. No more spamming currently very unreliable cloak for either stam or magicka nb. Imagine if bolt escape consumed your magicka but failed most of the time and teleported you only a couple meters forward.

Always nice to see nightblades that have no idea about their class. Let me give you a lesson:

Cloak puts you into the hidden state. This gives you 25% extra movement speed by the morph of concealed weapon while hidden (any form of not being visible). You can then cast the nightblade evasion buff which happens to not break cloak and gives you 40% movement speed.
You gain 65% movement speed while invisible without being a vampire.

I can keep this up 100% of the time with my magica nightblade (not a vampire) and you never actually have to sneak. Happy to help and now go learn your class abilities instead of trying to give lectures on the forums when you don´t even know the class you´re playing.


Edit: Also nobody would complain if all classes had access to a skill like mark which is still an insanely good debuff outside of revealing magica nightblades.
Further there would be no complains if magica classes could access a magica based aoe with the same power of caltrops or steeltornado.

Edit2: I´ve pointed out above why flare is a bad skill compared to mark thus resulting in nobody (or almost nobody) using this skill. Add a component to the skill that makes it usefull for every situation and i´d slot it in an instant. Curretly it´s good against cloak and sneak - nobody needs a skill against sneak though - so what´s left is a skill with the single purpose of countering cloak.

Shunravi

Derra wrote: »

Edit: Also nobody would complain if all classes had access to a skill like mark which is still an insanely good debuff outside of revealing magica nightblades.
Further there would be no complains if magica classes could access a magica based aoe with the same power of caltrops or steeltornado.

People would still complain no matter the counter. They did and still do for many things that have been gutted...

Derra

Shunravi wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Edit: Also nobody would complain if all classes had access to a skill like mark which is still an insanely good debuff outside of revealing magica nightblades.
Further there would be no complains if magica classes could access a magica based aoe with the same power of caltrops or steeltornado.

People would still complain no matter the counter. They did and still do for many things that have been gutted...

Ok lets say: reasonable people would no longer complain?

Shunravi

Derra wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Edit: Also nobody would complain if all classes had access to a skill like mark which is still an insanely good debuff outside of revealing magica nightblades.
Further there would be no complains if magica classes could access a magica based aoe with the same power of caltrops or steeltornado.

People would still complain no matter the counter. They did and still do for many things that have been gutted...

Ok lets say: reasonable people would no longer complain?

Well, let me know when you see the reasonable people complaining in the first place

I kid I kid...

Tavore1138

Derra wrote: »

WalksAmongShadows wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Yonkit wrote: »

Detect Potions, AoEs, Flare, Caltrops, Piercing Mark, Radiant Magelight.

It's your own fault for not using these counters to Cloak, it's not a build issue, because he obviously couldn't kill you, just need Detect Potions or another counter to finish him off when he runs away.

The fact alone that we still have people like you running around screaming radiant magelight would be a vaible counter to cloak along with impuls with 6m aoe range while every magica nb has up to 65% increased movement speed in stealth is reason enough to give cloak the same treatment bolt escape got.

If they have 65% increased movement speed in stealth, it means they are vampires and can be oneshotted by stamina builds. Neither can you give cloak the same treatment as bolt escape without completely destroying stamina builds. I find piercing mark rather useful to have on my skill bar even if it's only purpose is to prevent other nightblades cloaking. I have no problem with that, in fact I'm happy to have a counter against cloak even if it's very hard to fit, I usually have to sacrifice steel tornado or relentless focus for it.

Also, flare reveals every class in stealth, not just the nb. It's problematic that it's so high in support tree though.

I think if you want to give cloak 'bolt escape treatment', it should work like vanish in world of warcraft. I mean so that you can't break the invisibility of a cloaked nb by any means for it's duration, unless the nightblade attacks something. No more spamming currently very unreliable cloak for either stam or magicka nb. Imagine if bolt escape consumed your magicka but failed most of the time and teleported you only a couple meters forward.

Always nice to see nightblades that have no idea about their class. Let me give you a lesson:

Cloak puts you into the hidden state. This gives you 25% extra movement speed by the morph of concealed weapon while hidden (any form of not being visible). You can then cast the nightblade evasion buff which happens to not break cloak and gives you 40% movement speed.
You gain 65% movement speed while invisible without being a vampire.

I can keep this up 100% of the time with my magica nightblade (not a vampire) and you never actually have to sneak. Happy to help and now go learn your class abilities instead of trying to give lectures on the forums when you don´t even know the class you´re playing.


Edit: Also nobody would complain if all classes had access to a skill like mark which is still an insanely good debuff outside of revealing magica nightblades.
Further there would be no complains if magica classes could access a magica based aoe with the same power of caltrops or steeltornado.

Edit2: I´ve pointed out above why flare is a bad skill compared to mark thus resulting in nobody (or almost nobody) using this skill. Add a component to the skill that makes it usefull for every situation and i´d slot it in an instant. Curretly it´s good against cloak and sneak - nobody needs a skill against sneak though - so what´s left is a skill with the single purpose of countering cloak.

So you are slotting at least 3 specific skills and presumably a bunch of magicka regen to achieve this rather useless situation where you are able to avoid combat for ever, much like permna-rollers this is not really getting you anywhere unless you can also kill some mobs or players.

And if you played stamina you can't do any of this anyway so further removing any ability for stamina players to escape combat at all seems like a rather cheesy way to win. But I guess it beats playing...

rfennell_ESO

WalksAmongShadows wrote: »

If they have 65% increased movement speed in stealth, it means they are vampires and can be oneshotted by stamina builds. Neither can you give cloak the same treatment as bolt escape without completely destroying stamina builds. I find piercing mark rather useful to have on my skill bar even if it's only purpose is to prevent other nightblades cloaking. I have no problem with that, in fact I'm happy to have a counter against cloak even if it's very hard to fit, I usually have to sacrifice steel tornado or relentless focus for it.

Also, flare reveals every class in stealth, not just the nb. It's problematic that it's so high in support tree though.

I think if you want to give cloak 'bolt escape treatment', it should work like vanish in world of warcraft. I mean so that you can't break the invisibility of a cloaked nb by any means for it's duration, unless the nightblade attacks something. No more spamming currently very unreliable cloak for either stam or magicka nb. Imagine if bolt escape consumed your magicka but failed most of the time and teleported you only a couple meters forward.

The combination of double take, concealed weapon is 65% speed. So even without vampire it's still pretty fast.

Btw, for whatever reason.. piercing mark is subject to cleansing. Not cloaking, but alliance war cleanse/purge.

So magicka nightblades that aren't vampire move fast in stealth and can remove piercing mark.

Problem with the bolt escape treatment on dark cloak is you wreck the ability totally for stamina nightblades, worse particularly being that all the "elite types" have no issue at all casting right through cloak in all forms with their leet lag creation macros or I mean superior top game winner skill (they press their buttons really hard I guess). Some of them cast through dark cloak, walls, pillars, floors, lacking los... so they are really pressing that button hard I suppose (Winning).

The OP nature of cloak is 2nd fiddle to how ridiculously OP sorcerers are in pvp even with shield breaker though. You don't have to be good, or skilled or even experienced. Just stack magicka, get tons of spell power, and if you play the game in lieu of employment: totally geared out.... Go the extra mile and find every macro and lag exploit you can (so when someone managed to kill you your body ends up 15 meters away from where you were killed, don't worry just say "lag") Next step is make a shield breaker is OP thread and attack nightblades in it (even though no one with shield breaker can kill any sorcerer with it without that sorc already being nearly dead).

But the cloak and stealth wars of IC are pretty stupid, or pretty fun if you can cloak (by fun I mean winning). If you can't cloak (not a nightblade) you are mostly there for nightblades to kill you unless you have 2-3 friends with you at all times.

Derra

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

WalksAmongShadows wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Yonkit wrote: »

Detect Potions, AoEs, Flare, Caltrops, Piercing Mark, Radiant Magelight.

It's your own fault for not using these counters to Cloak, it's not a build issue, because he obviously couldn't kill you, just need Detect Potions or another counter to finish him off when he runs away.

The fact alone that we still have people like you running around screaming radiant magelight would be a vaible counter to cloak along with impuls with 6m aoe range while every magica nb has up to 65% increased movement speed in stealth is reason enough to give cloak the same treatment bolt escape got.

If they have 65% increased movement speed in stealth, it means they are vampires and can be oneshotted by stamina builds. Neither can you give cloak the same treatment as bolt escape without completely destroying stamina builds. I find piercing mark rather useful to have on my skill bar even if it's only purpose is to prevent other nightblades cloaking. I have no problem with that, in fact I'm happy to have a counter against cloak even if it's very hard to fit, I usually have to sacrifice steel tornado or relentless focus for it.

Also, flare reveals every class in stealth, not just the nb. It's problematic that it's so high in support tree though.

I think if you want to give cloak 'bolt escape treatment', it should work like vanish in world of warcraft. I mean so that you can't break the invisibility of a cloaked nb by any means for it's duration, unless the nightblade attacks something. No more spamming currently very unreliable cloak for either stam or magicka nb. Imagine if bolt escape consumed your magicka but failed most of the time and teleported you only a couple meters forward.

Always nice to see nightblades that have no idea about their class. Let me give you a lesson:

Cloak puts you into the hidden state. This gives you 25% extra movement speed by the morph of concealed weapon while hidden (any form of not being visible). You can then cast the nightblade evasion buff which happens to not break cloak and gives you 40% movement speed.
You gain 65% movement speed while invisible without being a vampire.

I can keep this up 100% of the time with my magica nightblade (not a vampire) and you never actually have to sneak. Happy to help and now go learn your class abilities instead of trying to give lectures on the forums when you don´t even know the class you´re playing.


Edit: Also nobody would complain if all classes had access to a skill like mark which is still an insanely good debuff outside of revealing magica nightblades.
Further there would be no complains if magica classes could access a magica based aoe with the same power of caltrops or steeltornado.

Edit2: I´ve pointed out above why flare is a bad skill compared to mark thus resulting in nobody (or almost nobody) using this skill. Add a component to the skill that makes it usefull for every situation and i´d slot it in an instant. Curretly it´s good against cloak and sneak - nobody needs a skill against sneak though - so what´s left is a skill with the single purpose of countering cloak.

So you are slotting at least 3 specific skills and presumably a bunch of magicka regen to achieve this rather useless situation where you are able to avoid combat for ever, much like permna-rollers this is not really getting you anywhere unless you can also kill some mobs or players.

And if you played stamina you can't do any of this anyway so further removing any ability for stamina players to escape combat at all seems like a rather cheesy way to win. But I guess it beats playing...

So do you really want to tell me that doubletake concealed weapon and cloak are not pretty much set for every magica nightblades out there who´s playing solo or smallgrp - like for real?
Also you don´t need much regen to maintain this for quite some time. Around 1500 to 1700 will do just fine - if you really want to do that for extended periods of time. To escape every built with 1000 reg will suffice (i´m doing this on my nightblade with 1200 magica reg and 3.1k spelldmg so don´t even try to tell me it´s not possible).

On your statement regarding stamina: Sadly with the way eso works you have to tune skills for build optimised to use them. Stamina sorcs had the same problem with the multiple nerfs to streak because magica sorcs could streak for extended periods of time.
It´s basically the same with cloak for magica and stamina nightblades. I´m not saying this is fair for the stam nbs especially as they don´t have access to concealed anyway but that´s just how it works.

Tavore1138

Derra wrote: »

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

WalksAmongShadows wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Yonkit wrote: »

Detect Potions, AoEs, Flare, Caltrops, Piercing Mark, Radiant Magelight.

It's your own fault for not using these counters to Cloak, it's not a build issue, because he obviously couldn't kill you, just need Detect Potions or another counter to finish him off when he runs away.

The fact alone that we still have people like you running around screaming radiant magelight would be a vaible counter to cloak along with impuls with 6m aoe range while every magica nb has up to 65% increased movement speed in stealth is reason enough to give cloak the same treatment bolt escape got.

If they have 65% increased movement speed in stealth, it means they are vampires and can be oneshotted by stamina builds. Neither can you give cloak the same treatment as bolt escape without completely destroying stamina builds. I find piercing mark rather useful to have on my skill bar even if it's only purpose is to prevent other nightblades cloaking. I have no problem with that, in fact I'm happy to have a counter against cloak even if it's very hard to fit, I usually have to sacrifice steel tornado or relentless focus for it.

Also, flare reveals every class in stealth, not just the nb. It's problematic that it's so high in support tree though.

I think if you want to give cloak 'bolt escape treatment', it should work like vanish in world of warcraft. I mean so that you can't break the invisibility of a cloaked nb by any means for it's duration, unless the nightblade attacks something. No more spamming currently very unreliable cloak for either stam or magicka nb. Imagine if bolt escape consumed your magicka but failed most of the time and teleported you only a couple meters forward.

Always nice to see nightblades that have no idea about their class. Let me give you a lesson:

Cloak puts you into the hidden state. This gives you 25% extra movement speed by the morph of concealed weapon while hidden (any form of not being visible). You can then cast the nightblade evasion buff which happens to not break cloak and gives you 40% movement speed.
You gain 65% movement speed while invisible without being a vampire.

I can keep this up 100% of the time with my magica nightblade (not a vampire) and you never actually have to sneak. Happy to help and now go learn your class abilities instead of trying to give lectures on the forums when you don´t even know the class you´re playing.


Edit: Also nobody would complain if all classes had access to a skill like mark which is still an insanely good debuff outside of revealing magica nightblades.
Further there would be no complains if magica classes could access a magica based aoe with the same power of caltrops or steeltornado.

Edit2: I´ve pointed out above why flare is a bad skill compared to mark thus resulting in nobody (or almost nobody) using this skill. Add a component to the skill that makes it usefull for every situation and i´d slot it in an instant. Curretly it´s good against cloak and sneak - nobody needs a skill against sneak though - so what´s left is a skill with the single purpose of countering cloak.

So you are slotting at least 3 specific skills and presumably a bunch of magicka regen to achieve this rather useless situation where you are able to avoid combat for ever, much like permna-rollers this is not really getting you anywhere unless you can also kill some mobs or players.

And if you played stamina you can't do any of this anyway so further removing any ability for stamina players to escape combat at all seems like a rather cheesy way to win. But I guess it beats playing...

So do you really want to tell me that doubletake concealed weapon and cloak are not pretty much set for every magica nightblades out there who´s playing solo or smallgrp - like for real?
Also you don´t need much regen to maintain this for quite some time. Around 1500 to 1700 will do just fine - if you really want to do that for extended periods of time. To escape every built with 1000 reg will suffice.

On your statement regarding stamina: Sadly with the way eso works you have to tune skills for build optimised to use them. Stamina sorcs had the same problem with the multiple nerfs to streak because magica sorcs could streak for extended periods of time.
It´s basically the same with cloak for magica and stamina nightblades. I´m not saying this is fair for the stam nbs especially as they don´t have access to concealed anyway but that´s just how it works.

I've never played magicka NB, stamina makes more sense for a stabby assassin type (just my opinion though). So I can't really say what they do and don't use - I just know that cloak is a useful tool for me in IC but I cannot spam it nor does it guarantee me escape from, or victory in, combat. My regen is around 600 for magicka BTW so not really an issues when cloak costs 3.6k for me, I run dry fast if I don't get out of LoS quickly.

But if it is really such a huge issue, which I don't accept, then any cost related nerf should kick in after a minimum 3 casts to allow it's use in a 'proper' way. The same should also be true for streak and roll dodge BTW.

Otherwise where would these nerfs end - maybe I start a thread about some class specific skill that annoys me (talons or encase for example). Something like:

'How is is fair that sorcs and dks can spam roots when I am only allowed to dodge them once before being penalised, it is so OP and they can spam them forever without ever stopping. There needs to be a penalty after the first cast of 50% for each subsequent one or they can just spam to win'

And then that goes and we move onto the next nerf and the next until the game is dead.

Derra

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

WalksAmongShadows wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Yonkit wrote: »

Detect Potions, AoEs, Flare, Caltrops, Piercing Mark, Radiant Magelight.

It's your own fault for not using these counters to Cloak, it's not a build issue, because he obviously couldn't kill you, just need Detect Potions or another counter to finish him off when he runs away.

The fact alone that we still have people like you running around screaming radiant magelight would be a vaible counter to cloak along with impuls with 6m aoe range while every magica nb has up to 65% increased movement speed in stealth is reason enough to give cloak the same treatment bolt escape got.

If they have 65% increased movement speed in stealth, it means they are vampires and can be oneshotted by stamina builds. Neither can you give cloak the same treatment as bolt escape without completely destroying stamina builds. I find piercing mark rather useful to have on my skill bar even if it's only purpose is to prevent other nightblades cloaking. I have no problem with that, in fact I'm happy to have a counter against cloak even if it's very hard to fit, I usually have to sacrifice steel tornado or relentless focus for it.

Also, flare reveals every class in stealth, not just the nb. It's problematic that it's so high in support tree though.

I think if you want to give cloak 'bolt escape treatment', it should work like vanish in world of warcraft. I mean so that you can't break the invisibility of a cloaked nb by any means for it's duration, unless the nightblade attacks something. No more spamming currently very unreliable cloak for either stam or magicka nb. Imagine if bolt escape consumed your magicka but failed most of the time and teleported you only a couple meters forward.

Always nice to see nightblades that have no idea about their class. Let me give you a lesson:

Cloak puts you into the hidden state. This gives you 25% extra movement speed by the morph of concealed weapon while hidden (any form of not being visible). You can then cast the nightblade evasion buff which happens to not break cloak and gives you 40% movement speed.
You gain 65% movement speed while invisible without being a vampire.

I can keep this up 100% of the time with my magica nightblade (not a vampire) and you never actually have to sneak. Happy to help and now go learn your class abilities instead of trying to give lectures on the forums when you don´t even know the class you´re playing.


Edit: Also nobody would complain if all classes had access to a skill like mark which is still an insanely good debuff outside of revealing magica nightblades.
Further there would be no complains if magica classes could access a magica based aoe with the same power of caltrops or steeltornado.

Edit2: I´ve pointed out above why flare is a bad skill compared to mark thus resulting in nobody (or almost nobody) using this skill. Add a component to the skill that makes it usefull for every situation and i´d slot it in an instant. Curretly it´s good against cloak and sneak - nobody needs a skill against sneak though - so what´s left is a skill with the single purpose of countering cloak.

So you are slotting at least 3 specific skills and presumably a bunch of magicka regen to achieve this rather useless situation where you are able to avoid combat for ever, much like permna-rollers this is not really getting you anywhere unless you can also kill some mobs or players.

And if you played stamina you can't do any of this anyway so further removing any ability for stamina players to escape combat at all seems like a rather cheesy way to win. But I guess it beats playing...

So do you really want to tell me that doubletake concealed weapon and cloak are not pretty much set for every magica nightblades out there who´s playing solo or smallgrp - like for real?
Also you don´t need much regen to maintain this for quite some time. Around 1500 to 1700 will do just fine - if you really want to do that for extended periods of time. To escape every built with 1000 reg will suffice.

On your statement regarding stamina: Sadly with the way eso works you have to tune skills for build optimised to use them. Stamina sorcs had the same problem with the multiple nerfs to streak because magica sorcs could streak for extended periods of time.
It´s basically the same with cloak for magica and stamina nightblades. I´m not saying this is fair for the stam nbs especially as they don´t have access to concealed anyway but that´s just how it works.

I've never played magicka NB, stamina makes more sense for a stabby assassin type (just my opinion though). So I can't really say what they do and don't use - I just know that cloak is a useful tool for me in IC but I cannot spam it nor does it guarantee me escape from, or victory in, combat. My regen is around 600 for magicka BTW so not really an issues when cloak costs 3.6k for me, I run dry fast if I don't get out of LoS quickly.

But if it is really such a huge issue, which I don't accept, then any cost related nerf should kick in after a minimum 3 casts to allow it's use in a 'proper' way. The same should also be true for streak and roll dodge BTW.

Otherwise where would these nerfs end - maybe I start a thread about some class specific skill that annoys me (talons or encase for example). Something like:

'How is is fair that sorcs and dks can spam roots when I am only allowed to dodge them once before being penalised, it is so OP and they can spam them forever without ever stopping. There needs to be a penalty after the first cast of 50% for each subsequent one or they can just spam to win'

And then that goes and we move onto the next nerf and the next until the game is dead.

I think i´ll quote myself from another topic:

Derra wrote: »

Jprip88b16_ESO wrote: »

NB cloak needs to get the same threatment as sorc Streak do.. its the same type of skill that is used to get away from a fight.. so when streak got nerfed so should NB cloak nuff said

Actually cloak is working differently from bolt escape.

I personally think it would be way better to halt magica regen while you´re not visible to any other player while in cloak. Cloak by design needs to be spammed in certain situations to even get it to work. Also there is no way of telling if someone is using a detect potion.
If it were to work like streak you´d pretty much be able to shut it down 100% as a defensive skill. Therefor i´d tie the penatly to the skill actually working (only when your character is hidden).

Stacking cost reduction EDIT: Increase obviously is not the way to go about cloak especially in regards to stamina builds. There needs to be some sort of penalty for magica based nightblades though.

Tavore1138

Derra wrote: »

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

WalksAmongShadows wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Yonkit wrote: »

Detect Potions, AoEs, Flare, Caltrops, Piercing Mark, Radiant Magelight.

It's your own fault for not using these counters to Cloak, it's not a build issue, because he obviously couldn't kill you, just need Detect Potions or another counter to finish him off when he runs away.

The fact alone that we still have people like you running around screaming radiant magelight would be a vaible counter to cloak along with impuls with 6m aoe range while every magica nb has up to 65% increased movement speed in stealth is reason enough to give cloak the same treatment bolt escape got.

If they have 65% increased movement speed in stealth, it means they are vampires and can be oneshotted by stamina builds. Neither can you give cloak the same treatment as bolt escape without completely destroying stamina builds. I find piercing mark rather useful to have on my skill bar even if it's only purpose is to prevent other nightblades cloaking. I have no problem with that, in fact I'm happy to have a counter against cloak even if it's very hard to fit, I usually have to sacrifice steel tornado or relentless focus for it.

Also, flare reveals every class in stealth, not just the nb. It's problematic that it's so high in support tree though.

I think if you want to give cloak 'bolt escape treatment', it should work like vanish in world of warcraft. I mean so that you can't break the invisibility of a cloaked nb by any means for it's duration, unless the nightblade attacks something. No more spamming currently very unreliable cloak for either stam or magicka nb. Imagine if bolt escape consumed your magicka but failed most of the time and teleported you only a couple meters forward.

Always nice to see nightblades that have no idea about their class. Let me give you a lesson:

Cloak puts you into the hidden state. This gives you 25% extra movement speed by the morph of concealed weapon while hidden (any form of not being visible). You can then cast the nightblade evasion buff which happens to not break cloak and gives you 40% movement speed.
You gain 65% movement speed while invisible without being a vampire.

I can keep this up 100% of the time with my magica nightblade (not a vampire) and you never actually have to sneak. Happy to help and now go learn your class abilities instead of trying to give lectures on the forums when you don´t even know the class you´re playing.


Edit: Also nobody would complain if all classes had access to a skill like mark which is still an insanely good debuff outside of revealing magica nightblades.
Further there would be no complains if magica classes could access a magica based aoe with the same power of caltrops or steeltornado.

Edit2: I´ve pointed out above why flare is a bad skill compared to mark thus resulting in nobody (or almost nobody) using this skill. Add a component to the skill that makes it usefull for every situation and i´d slot it in an instant. Curretly it´s good against cloak and sneak - nobody needs a skill against sneak though - so what´s left is a skill with the single purpose of countering cloak.

So you are slotting at least 3 specific skills and presumably a bunch of magicka regen to achieve this rather useless situation where you are able to avoid combat for ever, much like permna-rollers this is not really getting you anywhere unless you can also kill some mobs or players.

And if you played stamina you can't do any of this anyway so further removing any ability for stamina players to escape combat at all seems like a rather cheesy way to win. But I guess it beats playing...

So do you really want to tell me that doubletake concealed weapon and cloak are not pretty much set for every magica nightblades out there who´s playing solo or smallgrp - like for real?
Also you don´t need much regen to maintain this for quite some time. Around 1500 to 1700 will do just fine - if you really want to do that for extended periods of time. To escape every built with 1000 reg will suffice.

On your statement regarding stamina: Sadly with the way eso works you have to tune skills for build optimised to use them. Stamina sorcs had the same problem with the multiple nerfs to streak because magica sorcs could streak for extended periods of time.
It´s basically the same with cloak for magica and stamina nightblades. I´m not saying this is fair for the stam nbs especially as they don´t have access to concealed anyway but that´s just how it works.

I've never played magicka NB, stamina makes more sense for a stabby assassin type (just my opinion though). So I can't really say what they do and don't use - I just know that cloak is a useful tool for me in IC but I cannot spam it nor does it guarantee me escape from, or victory in, combat. My regen is around 600 for magicka BTW so not really an issues when cloak costs 3.6k for me, I run dry fast if I don't get out of LoS quickly.

But if it is really such a huge issue, which I don't accept, then any cost related nerf should kick in after a minimum 3 casts to allow it's use in a 'proper' way. The same should also be true for streak and roll dodge BTW.

Otherwise where would these nerfs end - maybe I start a thread about some class specific skill that annoys me (talons or encase for example). Something like:

'How is is fair that sorcs and dks can spam roots when I am only allowed to dodge them once before being penalised, it is so OP and they can spam them forever without ever stopping. There needs to be a penalty after the first cast of 50% for each subsequent one or they can just spam to win'

And then that goes and we move onto the next nerf and the next until the game is dead.

I think i´ll quote myself from another topic:

Derra wrote: »

Jprip88b16_ESO wrote: »

NB cloak needs to get the same threatment as sorc Streak do.. its the same type of skill that is used to get away from a fight.. so when streak got nerfed so should NB cloak nuff said

Actually cloak is working differently from bolt escape.

I personally think it would be way better to halt magica regen while you´re not visible to any other player while in cloak. Cloak by design needs to be spammed in certain situations to even get it to work. Also there is no way of telling if someone is using a detect potion.
If it were to work like streak you´d pretty much be able to shut it down 100% as a defensive skill. Therefor i´d tie the penatly to the skill actually working (only when your character is hidden).

Stacking cost reduction is not the way to go about cloak especially in regards to stamina builds. There needs to be some sort of penalty for magica based nightblades though.

Good heavens - that actually seems like a nuanced and sensible way to approach it, it'll never catch on.

WalksAmongShadows

Derra wrote: »

WalksAmongShadows wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Yonkit wrote: »

Detect Potions, AoEs, Flare, Caltrops, Piercing Mark, Radiant Magelight.

It's your own fault for not using these counters to Cloak, it's not a build issue, because he obviously couldn't kill you, just need Detect Potions or another counter to finish him off when he runs away.

The fact alone that we still have people like you running around screaming radiant magelight would be a vaible counter to cloak along with impuls with 6m aoe range while every magica nb has up to 65% increased movement speed in stealth is reason enough to give cloak the same treatment bolt escape got.

If they have 65% increased movement speed in stealth, it means they are vampires and can be oneshotted by stamina builds. Neither can you give cloak the same treatment as bolt escape without completely destroying stamina builds. I find piercing mark rather useful to have on my skill bar even if it's only purpose is to prevent other nightblades cloaking. I have no problem with that, in fact I'm happy to have a counter against cloak even if it's very hard to fit, I usually have to sacrifice steel tornado or relentless focus for it.

Also, flare reveals every class in stealth, not just the nb. It's problematic that it's so high in support tree though.

I think if you want to give cloak 'bolt escape treatment', it should work like vanish in world of warcraft. I mean so that you can't break the invisibility of a cloaked nb by any means for it's duration, unless the nightblade attacks something. No more spamming currently very unreliable cloak for either stam or magicka nb. Imagine if bolt escape consumed your magicka but failed most of the time and teleported you only a couple meters forward.

Always nice to see nightblades that have no idea about their class. Let me give you a lesson:

Cloak puts you into the hidden state. This gives you 25% extra movement speed by the morph of concealed weapon while hidden (any form of not being visible). You can then cast the nightblade evasion buff which happens to not break cloak and gives you 40% movement speed.
You gain 65% movement speed while invisible without being a vampire.

I can keep this up 100% of the time with my magica nightblade (not a vampire) and you never actually have to sneak. Happy to help and now go learn your class abilities instead of trying to give lectures on the forums when you don´t even know the class you´re playing.


Edit: Also nobody would complain if all classes had access to a skill like mark which is still an insanely good debuff outside of revealing magica nightblades.
Further there would be no complains if magica classes could access a magica based aoe with the same power of caltrops or steeltornado.

Edit2: I´ve pointed out above why flare is a bad skill compared to mark thus resulting in nobody (or almost nobody) using this skill. Add a component to the skill that makes it usefull for every situation and i´d slot it in an instant. Curretly it´s good against cloak and sneak - nobody needs a skill against sneak though - so what´s left is a skill with the single purpose of countering cloak.

Ahh, my brain skipped the "every magicka nb" part of your post, my bad, didn't realize you were complaining exclusively about magicka nbs since the topic was centered around cloak in general, no need to be a cocky prick. Still, if you think there's no use for flare except vs nightblades I think you should use your imagination a bit more if you believe there is no use for flare against sneak. Not to mention the whole gain 5%/10% magicka recovery just by having it slotted part. Still, I do think it should be buffed a bit. Piercing mark debuff is more of a magicka nightblade thing, stamina nb gets major fracture from surprise attack just like dk gets it from burning breath. Basically your issues are with magicka nbs.

Most people consider stamina nightblades stronger than magicka nightblades in general, so makes me wonder...

Emma_Overload

rordogg wrote: »

Yeah I've used flare before. But being a completely stamina focused heavy armor user. I can't afford to use it or it completely destroys the synergys of my bars. Same deal with caltrops which I actually like, but it's too costly.. I'd rather fight the NB with my single target attacks and I honestly do fine. Except the ones that spam cloak. And yeah everyone is saying flare or aoes. But unless I use flare he's just gonna step out and go right back into stealth lol.

Your suggestion is perfectly sensible. The reason you're hearing so much blowback in this thread is because NB is the preferred class for IC, and they don't want to give up their crutches.

After what happened to Bolt Escape, I have no sympathy for these "L2P" arguments. These guys should have to deal with EXPONENTIAL coast increase on Cloak like Sorcs do with Bolt Escape!

Lava_Croft

Soris wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

And I agree cloak should get same treatment as bolt escape

That's fine by me, let's do it for Breath of Life too then.

Why? Templar lost a shield and aoe blind already.

So it's fine that the classes without good heals but with escape skills have their escape skills changed so they cannot spam them as hard, but the classes without escape skills but good heals get to spam their heals as hard as ever.

Yeah, no thanks.

RinaldoGandolphi

Honestly cloak is probably fine. The only change made should be once combat starts, npc should be able to see and agro thr cloaked nightblade, but the player shouldn't be able to see unless he has a counter slotted.

As tough and as hard hitting as the npc are in ipc. Its unfair one class can have blanket immunity from them.

Cathexis

Yonkit wrote: »

Detect Potions, AoEs, Flare, Caltrops, Piercing Mark, Radiant Magelight.

It's your own fault for not using these counters to Cloak, it's not a build issue, because he obviously couldn't kill you, just need Detect Potions or another counter to finish him off when he runs away.

Use any gap closer to catch up to Bolt.

Oh wait, we nerfed it anyway.

Its time to kill the cloak machine. Period.