[Suggestion] A Balance for Bolt Escape

Zsymon

Wouldn't Daedric Mines make using a gap closer on a bolting Sorc a very painful endeavor?

Ah nvm, Armitas beat me to it.

You can't use a gap closer to chase bolting Sorcs, it's a death sentence unless the Sorc is stupid enough to not load Daedric Mines. The mines are the counter to the counter, which means there is no counter to Bolt in the first place.

Snit

Ezareth wrote: »

If you still have issues chasing down sorcs after Eric Wroebel embedded an unresistable stun into every gap closer in the game aimed at nerfing sorcs (again) then you should probably head back to AoE-grinding mobs in craglorn

This. If you remain baffled by bolt escape, you're either too stubborn or too clueless to adjust your build to handle it.

Look -- I've given up on my sorc for now. In the era of Nirnhoned gear, sorcs are sub-par against good groups (they remain awesome against bad players, but so what?). I've switched to steel tornado-spamming bosmer ww nightblade. I am not a unique snowflake. I don't have particular trouble with sorcs.

Morvul

Zsymon wrote: »

Wouldn't Daedric Mines make using a gap closer on a bolting Sorc a very painful endeavor?

Ah nvm, Armitas beat me to it.

You can't use a gap closer to chase bolting Sorcs, it's a death sentence unless the Sorc is stupid enough to not load Daedric Mines. The mines are the counter to the counter, which means there is no counter to Bolt in the first place.

Uhm... I love mines when fighting...
But when I want to escape, how do I drop mines, wait for them to arm, yet still stay within gap closer range while maaging to move away?

Hint: I either kite you around my mines, or try to escape... they are pretty much mutally exclusive

k2blader

Morvul wrote: »

Zsymon wrote: »

Wouldn't Daedric Mines make using a gap closer on a bolting Sorc a very painful endeavor?

Ah nvm, Armitas beat me to it.

You can't use a gap closer to chase bolting Sorcs, it's a death sentence unless the Sorc is stupid enough to not load Daedric Mines. The mines are the counter to the counter, which means there is no counter to Bolt in the first place.

Uhm... I love mines when fighting...
But when I want to escape, how do I drop mines, wait for them to arm, yet still stay within gap closer range while maaging to move away?

Hint: I either kite you around my mines, or try to escape... they are pretty much mutally exclusive

Use that instant arm version, then your enemy will run over it in a perfectly straight line of explozhunz.

[edit] Yes that was meant to poke fun at the whinge about mines.

Xsorus

Or you know..You could do what every sorc in the game does, and Bolt through the Target charging ya..Thus ya know..Ccing them and giving ya time to get the second bolt off and getting away.

Every Sorc knows this...Including Sorcs like Ezareth......But they'll try convince you they die consistently to people Crit Charging them over and over again.

Snit

Xsorus wrote: »

Or you know..You could do what every sorc in the game does, and Bolt through the Target charging ya..

You can avoid being CC', especially when you know it's coming.

Xsorus

Snit wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Or you know..You could do what every sorc in the game does, and Bolt through the Target charging ya..

You can avoid being CC', especially when you know it's coming.

You won't avoid this CC, everyone knows this.

Ffastyl

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Nerf beggars talk about Bolt Escape as if it's only used in PvP and only for the purpose of rapid movement. WRONG on both counts. Many people use the Streak morph as an AOE damage+stun, while many others use Ball of Lightning for its spell absorbing effects. Turning this bread-and-butter spell into an expensive treat would ruin it for everybody.

My suggestion does not alter the secondary effects or cost of Bolt Escape. It alters the traversal distance only.
Casting Bolt Escape while rooted does not teleport you anywhere but it does apply the stun/disorient and damage or deploy the orb.

As a couple have mentioned, there are counters to present Bolt Escape counters, to which there are no counters (Daedric Mines and Bolt Escaping backwards to stun the charger). As I have read many times in ingame chat "A well played sorc is unkillable." There is more to it than simple mobility but it is a notable part of it. A "Nerf Sorc" thread could be made, but I choose to focus on a single well-known ability to keep discussion focused and (in vain) avoid the brushing denials and smoke screens of the vehement sorc forum community.

Cinnamon_Spider

It is especially funny that this still comes up in the time of unlimited stamina pools. I should upload the video I recorded the other night of me chasing down a NB that was able to stay ahead of my bolting the entire time for a few minutes. I had to actually use magicka pots a couple times because I ran out of magic before he ran out of stam.

And even good sorcs get that perma stun from gap closers, such as crit rush. It isn't so bad when you have one person on you, but when you have multiple people all spamming a gap closer at once, there is no bolting through them and there is no bolting away from them. You are locked in place until they are on you.

Domander

I like it, it's needed, and sort of a buff while giving a real actual counter. (no, gap closers do not always work, and you sorcs know this, this is why you engage and bolt away at will ALL THE TIME)

Xsorus

While a change might be needed for Bolt Escape, its pointless to talk about it until we learn what 1.7 has in terms of Balance Update.

We all know there are balance issues right now with the game...We don't know what they're going to do yet though.

MormondPayne_EP

OH FFS!!!!

WHAT ABOUT INFINITE DODGE F%&%^ING ROLLING!

Seriously!

My Sorc is effectively useless at the moment with the Nirn bug making me do sweet FA damage, the infinite dodge rollers dodging EVERY single projectile and now you want to nerf the balls off bolt escape so that instead of being able to run away and do nothing I just have to sit there and die.

Get the %^& out of here...

This has enraged me... do not say another word.

Xsorus

MormondPayne_EP wrote: »

OH FFS!!!!

WHAT ABOUT INFINITE DODGE F%&%^ING ROLLING!

Seriously!

My Sorc is effectively useless at the moment with the Nirn bug making me do sweet FA damage, the infinite dodge rollers dodging EVERY single projectile and now you want to nerf the balls off bolt escape so that instead of being able to run away and do nothing I just have to sit there and die.

Get the %^& out of here...

This has enraged me... do not say another word.

You mean that thing thats ignored by countless abilities right now?

Ezareth

Xsorus wrote: »

Or you know..You could do what every sorc in the game does, and Bolt through the Target charging ya..Thus ya know..Ccing them and giving ya time to get the second bolt off and getting away.

Every Sorc knows this...Including Sorcs like Ezareth......But they'll try convince you they die consistently to people Crit Charging them over and over again.

Players with skill who actually know how to use crit-charge I fear more than any other player/class out there.
I don't die at all because I stopped playing my sorc. How's that for convincing?

Besides, I never bolted through my targets, that only works for streak. I just dodge roll spam while bolting and hope that game isn't bugged enough that I can get out of range before the crit charge hits me through dodge roll.

Xsorus

Ezareth wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Or you know..You could do what every sorc in the game does, and Bolt through the Target charging ya..Thus ya know..Ccing them and giving ya time to get the second bolt off and getting away.

Every Sorc knows this...Including Sorcs like Ezareth......But they'll try convince you they die consistently to people Crit Charging them over and over again.

Players with skill who actually know how to use crit-charge I fear more than any other player/class out there.
I don't die at all because I stopped playing my sorc. How's that for convincing?

Besides, I never bolted through my targets, that only works for streak. I just dodge roll spam while bolting and hope that game isn't bugged enough that I can get out of range before the crit charge hits me through dodge roll.

I can count on my hand the number of sorcs that spamming Crit Charge worked against

It works on people who bolt in a straight line...even then occasionally the Bolt Escaper will double bolt (as in they'll BE to an area then instantly BE again before you can get off a crit charge, probably has to do with latency i'm guessing)

Against virtually every other Sorc they've escaped by BEing away...

Ezareth

Xsorus wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Or you know..You could do what every sorc in the game does, and Bolt through the Target charging ya..Thus ya know..Ccing them and giving ya time to get the second bolt off and getting away.

Every Sorc knows this...Including Sorcs like Ezareth......But they'll try convince you they die consistently to people Crit Charging them over and over again.

Players with skill who actually know how to use crit-charge I fear more than any other player/class out there.
I don't die at all because I stopped playing my sorc. How's that for convincing?

Besides, I never bolted through my targets, that only works for streak. I just dodge roll spam while bolting and hope that game isn't bugged enough that I can get out of range before the crit charge hits me through dodge roll.

I can count on my hand the number of sorcs that spamming Crit Charge worked against

It works on people who bolt in a straight line...even then occasionally the Bolt Escaper will double bolt (as in they'll BE to an area then instantly BE again before you can get off a crit charge, probably has to do with latency i'm guessing)

Against virtually every other Sorc they've escaped by BEing away...

Perhaps with latency it's harder but man I chase them for miles almost every time. Especially since your crit charge hits them before you even move and if they've moved by the time you port to where they were you're now out of the range of their stun.

I can think of quite a few people that I know will chain charge me and are a PITA trying to escape from. I usually just let them hit me 4 or 5 times so I can put distance between them and their group and try to fight them there until I can get a CC off to escape.

Ak'nur use to wreck me with his crit-charge spam, AOE BBQ and the other good NM DK could do it almost every time as well.

Domander

Ezareth wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Or you know..You could do what every sorc in the game does, and Bolt through the Target charging ya..Thus ya know..Ccing them and giving ya time to get the second bolt off and getting away.

Every Sorc knows this...Including Sorcs like Ezareth......But they'll try convince you they die consistently to people Crit Charging them over and over again.

Players with skill who actually know how to use crit-charge I fear more than any other player/class out there.
I don't die at all because I stopped playing my sorc. How's that for convincing?

Besides, I never bolted through my targets, that only works for streak. I just dodge roll spam while bolting and hope that game isn't bugged enough that I can get out of range before the crit charge hits me through dodge roll.

I can count on my hand the number of sorcs that spamming Crit Charge worked against

It works on people who bolt in a straight line...even then occasionally the Bolt Escaper will double bolt (as in they'll BE to an area then instantly BE again before you can get off a crit charge, probably has to do with latency i'm guessing)

Against virtually every other Sorc they've escaped by BEing away...

Perhaps with latency it's harder but man I chase them for miles almost every time. Especially since your crit charge hits them before you even move and if they've moved by the time you port to where they were you're now out of the range of their stun.

I can think of quite a few people that I know will chain charge me and are a PITA trying to escape from. I usually just let them hit me 4 or 5 times so I can put distance between them and their group and try to fight them there until I can get a CC off to escape.

Ak'nur use to wreck me with his crit-charge spam, AOE BBQ and the other good NM DK could do it almost every time as well.

I don't think having to chase a sorc for miles every time is good gameplay, and yeah latency and pathing are what usually makes gap closers fail. Crit charge works the best because it's the fastest, but you have to spam the crap out of it, and if you try to do anything else.. they're gone.

Septimus_Magna

Bolt Escape is only strong against those who follow a fleeing sorc and waste their stamina trying to catch up..

Also, Bolt Escape isnt working when the servers start to lag and the ball of lightning doesnt absorb half the spells so its balanced enough imo.

Xsorus

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Bolt Escape is only strong against those who follow a fleeing sorc and waste their stamina trying to catch up..

Also, Bolt Escape isnt working when the servers start to lag and the ball of lightning doesnt absorb half the spells so its balanced enough imo.

So.....Its either don't chase the Sorc letting him escape 100% of the time

Or

Chase the sorc and have him waste your stamina trying to catch up...

Domander

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Bolt Escape is only strong against those who follow a fleeing sorc and waste their stamina trying to catch up..

Also, Bolt Escape isnt working when the servers start to lag and the ball of lightning doesnt absorb half the spells so its balanced enough imo.

If bolt escape isn't working, gap closers definitely aren't working.

I have a theory about ball of lightning, it's known that only the oldest "ball" will absorb, and sorcs usually spam it rather than using it once and fighting.

Tankqull

Xsorus wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Or you know..You could do what every sorc in the game does, and Bolt through the Target charging ya..

You can avoid being CC', especially when you know it's coming.

You won't avoid this CC, everyone knows this.

i´m perfectly fine when fighting a sorc to perma block all their potential cc on my NB ... espacially as 99% of the sorcs are not using streak(since streaks unblockable cc has been changed to a blockable stun in 1.6) but ball of lightning wich does not cc while treveling but only at a circle around the starting point - making it obvious where the cc will be applied.

Cinnamon_Spider

Xsorus wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Bolt Escape is only strong against those who follow a fleeing sorc and waste their stamina trying to catch up..

Also, Bolt Escape isnt working when the servers start to lag and the ball of lightning doesnt absorb half the spells so its balanced enough imo.

So.....Its either don't chase the Sorc letting him escape 100% of the time

Or

Chase the sorc and have him waste your stamina trying to catch up...

If you don't chase, the sorc will come come back to you.

Armitas

Morvul wrote: »

Zsymon wrote: »

Wouldn't Daedric Mines make using a gap closer on a bolting Sorc a very painful endeavor?

Ah nvm, Armitas beat me to it.

You can't use a gap closer to chase bolting Sorcs, it's a death sentence unless the Sorc is stupid enough to not load Daedric Mines. The mines are the counter to the counter, which means there is no counter to Bolt in the first place.

Uhm... I love mines when fighting...
But when I want to escape, how do I drop mines, wait for them to arm, yet still stay within gap closer range while maaging to move away?

Hint: I either kite you around my mines, or try to escape... they are pretty much mutally exclusive

If you are using mines, like pretty much every sorc is, then they are already down and armed with you on the far side. It's not like sorcs use mines only for BEing away. But even so it's not like you can't wait the 3 seconds for a new one to get a hardened and healing ward on before your escape. Or use the ones that arm instantly.

Xsorus

Tankqull wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Or you know..You could do what every sorc in the game does, and Bolt through the Target charging ya..

You can avoid being CC', especially when you know it's coming.

You won't avoid this CC, everyone knows this.

i´m perfectly fine when fighting a sorc to perma block all their potential cc on my NB ... espacially as 99% of the sorcs are not using streak(since streaks unblockable cc has been changed to a blockable stun in 1.6) but ball of lightning wich does not cc while treveling but only at a circle around the starting point - making it obvious where the cc will be applied.

It's going to apply soon as you get next to them, if sorcs weren't bloody escaping people with ease you wouldn't have silly suggestions like "just don't chase the sorc". Not would you have a ton of people complaining about bolt escape or saying it's the best escape in the game. the only idiots saying just crit charge the sorc is actual sorcs because they know it doesn't work and that's their go to response they hand out.

Xsorus

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Bolt Escape is only strong against those who follow a fleeing sorc and waste their stamina trying to catch up..

Also, Bolt Escape isnt working when the servers start to lag and the ball of lightning doesnt absorb half the spells so its balanced enough imo.

So.....Its either don't chase the Sorc letting him escape 100% of the time

Or

Chase the sorc and have him waste your stamina trying to catch up...

If you don't chase, the sorc will come come back to you.

That has to be quite possibly the worst advice I've seen given on this forum to date.

Yes just wait for the sorc to come back for you, it'll never possibly be when you are fighting someone else. Oh and if you manage to chase him off again. Remember just stay there and don't chase because having 100% chance to escape a fight isn't overpowered at all.

You seem like the kind of person who would say don't chase the thief in gw2 as well.

/facepalm

Rylana

Xsorus wrote: »

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Bolt Escape is only strong against those who follow a fleeing sorc and waste their stamina trying to catch up..

Also, Bolt Escape isnt working when the servers start to lag and the ball of lightning doesnt absorb half the spells so its balanced enough imo.

So.....Its either don't chase the Sorc letting him escape 100% of the time

Or

Chase the sorc and have him waste your stamina trying to catch up...

If you don't chase, the sorc will come come back to you.

That has to be quite possibly the worst advice I've seen given on this forum to date.

Yes just wait for the sorc to come back for you, it'll never possibly be when you are fighting someone else. Oh and if you manage to chase him off again. Remember just stay there and don't chase because having 100% chance to escape a fight isn't overpowered at all.

You seem like the kind of person who would say don't chase the thief in gw2 as well.

/facepalm

And you sound like a guy trying to tell everyone the only valid way to play is to stand still, not block (ever), not have any shields up, and just take those two incoming wrecking blows to the face because it makes you amazing to be able to hit the 1 key twice.

Perspective dude.

Cinnamon_Spider

Xsorus wrote: »

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Bolt Escape is only strong against those who follow a fleeing sorc and waste their stamina trying to catch up..

Also, Bolt Escape isnt working when the servers start to lag and the ball of lightning doesnt absorb half the spells so its balanced enough imo.

So.....Its either don't chase the Sorc letting him escape 100% of the time

Or

Chase the sorc and have him waste your stamina trying to catch up...

If you don't chase, the sorc will come come back to you.

That has to be quite possibly the worst advice I've seen given on this forum to date.

Yes just wait for the sorc to come back for you, it'll never possibly be when you are fighting someone else. Oh and if you manage to chase him off again. Remember just stay there and don't chase because having 100% chance to escape a fight isn't overpowered at all.

You seem like the kind of person who would say don't chase the thief in gw2 as well.

/facepalm

I don't know anything about GW2, but I do know about sorcs. If you are going after one sorc and they are getting away from you, your options are to either chase or stop and turn around. If you chase, you are playing on my terms. I want you to chase me. I want you to run out of stam. The most annoying thing another player can do is turn around. That makes me turn back and fight. And at that point, I am playing on your terms

Xsorus

Rylana wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Bolt Escape is only strong against those who follow a fleeing sorc and waste their stamina trying to catch up..

Also, Bolt Escape isnt working when the servers start to lag and the ball of lightning doesnt absorb half the spells so its balanced enough imo.

So.....Its either don't chase the Sorc letting him escape 100% of the time

Or

Chase the sorc and have him waste your stamina trying to catch up...

If you don't chase, the sorc will come come back to you.

That has to be quite possibly the worst advice I've seen given on this forum to date.

Yes just wait for the sorc to come back for you, it'll never possibly be when you are fighting someone else. Oh and if you manage to chase him off again. Remember just stay there and don't chase because having 100% chance to escape a fight isn't overpowered at all.

You seem like the kind of person who would say don't chase the thief in gw2 as well.

/facepalm

And you sound like a guy trying to tell everyone the only valid way to play is to stand still, not block (ever), not have any shields up, and just take those two incoming wrecking blows to the face because it makes you amazing to be able to hit the 1 key twice.

Perspective dude.

What are you even going on about? I said nothing of standing still, not blocking and not using shields.

I pointed out that not chasing is a stupid suggestion becauses you can't just not chase because it's most likely going to end up with that sorc jumping you when you are fighting someone else. Bout the only time you can just not chase is if you are with other people.

Even then not chasing raises balance issues. It basically says the sorc should be able to escape every fight because anyone who chases is going to lose.

So take your little perspective and learn from it.

Xsorus

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Bolt Escape is only strong against those who follow a fleeing sorc and waste their stamina trying to catch up..

Also, Bolt Escape isnt working when the servers start to lag and the ball of lightning doesnt absorb half the spells so its balanced enough imo.

So.....Its either don't chase the Sorc letting him escape 100% of the time

Or

Chase the sorc and have him waste your stamina trying to catch up...

If you don't chase, the sorc will come come back to you.

That has to be quite possibly the worst advice I've seen given on this forum to date.

Yes just wait for the sorc to come back for you, it'll never possibly be when you are fighting someone else. Oh and if you manage to chase him off again. Remember just stay there and don't chase because having 100% chance to escape a fight isn't overpowered at all.

You seem like the kind of person who would say don't chase the thief in gw2 as well.

/facepalm

I don't know anything about GW2, but I do know about sorcs. If you are going after one sorc and they are getting away from you, your options are to either chase or stop and turn around. If you chase, you are playing on my terms. I want you to chase me. I want you to run out of stam. The most annoying thing another player can do is turn around. That makes me turn back and fight. And at that point, I am playing on your terms

No you are still playing on your terms, you've basically decided when and where the fight can happen at your point with your suggestion on what people should do. It gives you a 100% chance get away by saying no one should chase you while allowing you to come back and hit that person at the most useful time for you.

It was the same silly argument countless thiefs made in guild wars 2 and I made videos in that game showing how stupid that sort of gameplay element is.

The fact that sorcs argue silly suggestions like yours as valid gameplay advice points that there is a problem with bolt escape in general.

Now like I said before though. I don't think bolt escape needs a change yet till we see what's in 1.7 in terms of balance changes.

Rylana

Xsorus wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Bolt Escape is only strong against those who follow a fleeing sorc and waste their stamina trying to catch up..

Also, Bolt Escape isnt working when the servers start to lag and the ball of lightning doesnt absorb half the spells so its balanced enough imo.

So.....Its either don't chase the Sorc letting him escape 100% of the time

Or

Chase the sorc and have him waste your stamina trying to catch up...

If you don't chase, the sorc will come come back to you.

That has to be quite possibly the worst advice I've seen given on this forum to date.

Yes just wait for the sorc to come back for you, it'll never possibly be when you are fighting someone else. Oh and if you manage to chase him off again. Remember just stay there and don't chase because having 100% chance to escape a fight isn't overpowered at all.

You seem like the kind of person who would say don't chase the thief in gw2 as well.

/facepalm

And you sound like a guy trying to tell everyone the only valid way to play is to stand still, not block (ever), not have any shields up, and just take those two incoming wrecking blows to the face because it makes you amazing to be able to hit the 1 key twice.

Perspective dude.

What are you even going on about? I said nothing of standing still, not blocking and not using shields.

I pointed out that not chasing is a stupid suggestion becauses you can't just not chase because it's most likely going to end up with that sorc jumping you when you are fighting someone else. Bout the only time you can just not chase is if you are with other people.

Even then not chasing raises balance issues. It basically says the sorc should be able to escape every fight because anyone who chases is going to lose.

So take your little perspective and learn from it.

Cin hit the nail on the head in the post above this one. What I was trying to get across to you.

You dont like it when the fight is taken out of your comfort zone, and thats what sorcs do as the mobility specialists. We arent the toe to toe slug it out fighters, we move and position to survive. With the sheer amount of one-hit wonder melee builds (and some ranged) its any wonder we do as well as we do and still see bolt escape threads as it is.

Now I personally am not a runner, unless outnumbered. I play very offensively on my sorc, because I am a raw bomber/damage build. But like all sorcs I CAN run away if i so choose. What usually happens is ill engage one guy, be doing alright, and suddenly three of his buddies pop up. then I have no choice but to bail and hope a couple follow, so i can string them out and take them out one by one.

You know what nerfing BE does to sorcs? it forces them to literally be instant AP for everyone else on the battlefield, and it aint happening on my watch. Its been nerfed three times already, yall calling for more nerfs have done enough damage in the past, thanks. if anything the added cost that BE gets when spammed should be added to EVERY ABILITY IN THE GAME. Then see how you like it.


Also what I am "on about" is your entire post history in this thread, you pretty much want the sorc class to be a free kill, and thats the sentiment i glean from every post thus far. You talk about critcharge so i know youre a 2H build (thus my WB comment). Sorry im not going to just stay in melee range of attacks that will smash through my 8k armor rating.