Why is fear not blockable?

Attorneyatlawl · May 2015

DDuke wrote: »

Better question: why should it be blockable?

I already explained this pretty thoroughly in another thread

.

"
It's the only CC in the game you cannot prevent in advance by blocking, and it's also the only aoe "soft" cc that does not break on damage. Templars can hit you with a ground target shards, but you are free if even so much as a DoT tick from them hits you. DK's can fossilize you, but as soon as you're hit you have a chance to react. Same deal with sorcerers and their rune prison. You also can block most cc's like these. However, if an NB fears you and you don't have enough stamina to CC break, you're done: they can unload damage on you as you run helplessly in a random direction. On magicka builds this is particularly nasty an issue as you already run on a tightrope to manage blocking important attacks.
"
It is also a damage debuff, snare, and hits three targets, while granting a major armor buff from their class passive. It's very obviously over the top

. Add in the cc break bugs it is associated with currently on top of that, and you have a near abusive skill to run around spamming in 1vX or other fights.

olemanwinter wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

CC break is done exactly the same way as "bashing" (interrupting), hold right mouse button and then hit left mouse button.

It's called "Break Free" when used this way, but when you are not CC'd, it is a "bash".

So, I'm right, yeah?

Both Fear and Fossilize are CC. Both are either "Bashed" before hand or "Break free" after begun, Correct?

The skills are activated, stopped, and broken in exactly the same way.

Sooooo....

/END THREAD

Nope. You can read above for why. For your specific narrow example though, fossilize breaks after being damaged a tiny amount. Fear does not. Fossilize hits one target. Fear hits three. Fosillize doesn't debuff. Fear does, snaring and reducing outgoing damage, while giving the caster a major armor buff. Fossilized has a moderate spell cost. Fear does not, costing a low amount base. See why we need some better UI providing basic gameplay info? People hop into balance discussions without knowing the basics

.

Varicite · May 2015

It's not a question of whether NBs have the best offense in the game; that is a simple truth.

Here is another simple truth: NBs have the worst defenses in the game as well, and depend heavily on their burst and disabling opponents for victory. They cannot turtle like other classes, and their escape is the only one neutered almost entirely by a potion.

Now, in the current meta where everybody values burst for kills over pretty much everything else, it creates a situation where the burstiest class w/ the best CC clearly looks like it stands head and shoulders above the others. This has really always been the case in the past as well, but it was balanced by proportionately larger health pools and MUCH longer TTKs.

That is no longer the case, so things look unbalanced, and pointers are being waved directly at NBs who are doing what they've always done. What was once considered a gimmicky "gank" class that hit hard and got hit harder is now what everyone wants to be running, because it's fully possible to dismantle opponents before they know what hit them and continue doing so.

Fix the extremely low TTKs and you "fix" the issue w/ NBs, relegating them once again to the balance that was always inteneded.

DDuke · May 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Better question: why should it be blockable?

I already explained this pretty thoroughly in another thread .

Oh yes, you did. And I quite thoroughly disagreed with it.

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

"
It's the only CC in the game you cannot prevent in advance by blocking, and it's also the only aoe "soft" cc that does not break on damage. Templars can hit you with a ground target shards, but you are free if even so much as a DoT tick from them hits you. DK's can fossilize you, but as soon as you're hit you have a chance to react. Same deal with sorcerers and their rune prison.

How can you say this, and then go on to list numerous other CCs that you can't prevent in advance by blocking? Also, whether something breaks from a DoT tick or not is irrelevant, as burst builds generally dont have any DoTs (Crystal Frag/Curse/Detonation? Nope. Ambush/Surprise Attack? Nope.).

In reality, what happens after a Fossilize for instance is a big, nasty Wrecking Blow to your face, taking 15-20k of your health, if you are unable to break CC in time.

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

You also can block most cc's like these. However, if an NB fears you and you don't have enough stamina to CC break, you're done: they can unload damage on you as you run helplessly in a random direction. On magicka builds this is particularly nasty an issue as you already run on a tightrope to manage blocking important attacks.

Ok, now that we've established that you can not block any of what you listed (you can't even avoid these other CCs you listed by movement & positioning as easily, since they are ranged & targeted), let's talk about the purpose of CC.

What purpose would CC have in your world, if not securing kills & locking targets down?
That has been the purpose of CC in every MMO & RPG I've ever played, but I'm curious to hear your thoughts on CC: what should it do, if even a target who's out of stamina was able to block/break it?
If anything, this game should have 100% unbreakable CCs like every other, dare I say, more successful, MMO, RPG & MOBA out there (of course, skills having no CD & low TTK should be taken into account).

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

"
It is also a damage debuff, snare, and hits three targets, while granting a major armor buff from their class passive. It's very obviously over the top . Add in the cc break bugs it is associated with currently on top of that, and you have a near abusive skill to run around spamming in 1vX or other fights.

Yes, and Fossilize not only deals damage when it ends, but also roots the target down (meaning you have to spend even more stamina roll dodging out).

Meanwhile, Rune Cage can take the DoTs you talked about & Defensive Rune is a proactive defense. Not seeing much of these in Cyrodiil for some reason, I would definitely slot Defensive Rune atleast on the Overload bar.

Oh, and Werewolf fear actually has a one second cast time, meaning that if you manage to land it, you can instantly follow up with a 20k+ Howl of Agony since no GCD applies. I had some fun as a werewolf, I'll probably upload a video soon(tm).

Anyhow, back to the point: I guess what you meant to say is that fear is different to other CCs?
I would say that is a good thing, diversity in mind.

However, you're greatly overestimating the power of Mass Hysteria, and here's why:

Skill has a very short, melee radius. You can be running right behind a target, and fail to fear him because he was slightly out of range. This is not only wasted time, but also wasted magicka (about 1/3rd or 1/4th of your magicka, if playing a stamina build).
Global Cooldown. This thing turns Mass Hysteria into a stamina drain, nothing else. I've fought many people, who can break it within half a second & keep on blocking before you manage to follow up with anything (takes 1.3 seconds).

If you look at the videos I make, you can count the kills I get thanks to fear with one hand.
On the other hand, Ambush->Surprise Attack is what really kills people (I'm waiting for the inevitable "nerf Ambush/Surprise Attack" thread).

All that said, I do understand the frustration of bugged/unresponsive CC break, I've been a victim of that several times.
That should absolutely be fixed, and I thought this was the consensus we reached in previous thread.

Attorneyatlawl · May 2015

@dduke, that is all fine and good if it's your opinion, but it isn't factual. And comparing a one and a half second cast time spell that automatically breaks on damage to an instant aoe cc with added debuffs which doesn't break on damage is just silly in the first place. By the way, Templar shards can be blocked. And as a Nightblade I have access to the two hand skill line just like everyone else.

The difference is you aren't free once I hit you, and you're snared and debuffed, as I slap on soul harvest just prior to give myself 20 percent more damage and a heal debuff on you (low 50 Ultimate cost means it's almost always available) alongside my always active 8 percent dmg from minor berserk

. After you've been slapped by two empowered+ high damage hits, debuffed including a heal debuff and snare, if you're still alive somehow although nearly everyone is melted by that, my next hit does 48 percent more dmg between wrecking blow empower and soul harvest. Better hope your healer is spamming breath of life! Add in how buggy cc break is with fear right now and it is so comically broken that I feel bad using it in Cyrodiil at this point.

olemanwinter · May 2015

Varicite wrote: »

Yes, you are correct. However, there is a bug currently w/ Break Free that makes it hard to break Fear immediately sometimes.

You can still break it, just not the instant that you're hit w/ it. This does not happen all the time, but enough to be annoying.

Fair enough. But this is a thread about why fear should be "Blockable" by design, not unbreakable by bug.

imho, enough evidence and logic has been presented that it's clearly.../end thread.

Attorneyatlawl · May 2015

olemanwinter wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Yes, you are correct. However, there is a bug currently w/ Break Free that makes it hard to break Fear immediately sometimes.

You can still break it, just not the instant that you're hit w/ it. This does not happen all the time, but enough to be annoying.

Fair enough. But this is a thread about why fear should be "Blockable" by design, not unbreakable by bug.

imho, enough evidence and logic has been presented that it's clearly.../end thread.

Already made two large posts explaining how regardless of the bug, it is tragically imbalanced.

DDuke · May 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

@dduke, that is all fine and good if it's your opinion, but it isn't factual. And comparing a one and a half second cast time spell that automatically breaks on damage to an instant aoe cc with added debuffs which doesn't break on damage I'd just silly in the first place. By the way, Templar shards can be blocked. And as a Nightblade I have access to the two hand skill line just like everyone else. The difference is you aren't free once I hit you, and you're snared and debuffed, as I slap on soul harvest just prior to give myself 20 percent more damage and a heal debuff on you (low 50 Ultimate cost means it's almost always available) alongside my always active 8 percent dmg from minor berserk . After you've been slapped by two emoowered+ high damage hits, debuffed including a heal debuff and snare, if you're still alive my next hit does 48 percent more dmg between wrecking blow empower and soul harvest. Better hope your healer is spamming breath of life!

Well, I sure would like to know where I tread on the fiction territory.
As far as I can see, everything I've said can be scientifically proven correct (factual).

One of the Templar spear morphs is unblockable (Luminous Shards), since it is a Disorient, not a stun. Blazing Spear on the other hand is a morph that turns the skill into a Stun (and provides a persistent AoE field), and thus it can be blocked.

Also, I have no idea what 2H has to do with any of this. As a NB, you get way, way more burst damage with dual wield & Surprise Attack, than you do with 2H. I mentioned 2H only in the DK context, since there is very strong synergy there.

As for your proposed combo of Fearing, throwing in a Soul Harvest & starting to Wrecking Blow, that whole ordeal would take you a minimum of 3,6 seconds (Fear=1,3 second GCD, Soul Harvest= 1,3 second GCD, Wrecking Blow=1 second cast).

I would suggest you to come up with something better, that is not going to work against competent players.

Frankly, it sounds to me like you have more problem with the burst damage & reaction times required in this game, than the CC itself.

Nothing wrong with that of course, I'm also of the opinion that TTK should be increased (though simultaneously I would expect being able to outDPS shield spam or permablock if I play my cards right, or have some other counter against these).

Edit: As much as I hate doing this, I'd also like to add that I've been bursting people down in <1 seconds since the beta of this game, and Fear has never been a key component of that (it has served as a stamina drain & tactical element mostly).

Meanwhile, I don't think I've ever been killed while feared. Not that I can remember atleast, most often I get feared, break it instantly without taking a hit & then start roll dodging away from the zerg while getting jesus beamed to death. Fun times.

olemanwinter · May 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Already made two large posts explaining how regardless of the bug, it is tragically imbalanced.

But you...are wrong. :-/

Varicite · May 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

olemanwinter wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Yes, you are correct. However, there is a bug currently w/ Break Free that makes it hard to break Fear immediately sometimes.

You can still break it, just not the instant that you're hit w/ it. This does not happen all the time, but enough to be annoying.

Fair enough. But this is a thread about why fear should be "Blockable" by design, not unbreakable by bug.

imho, enough evidence and logic has been presented that it's clearly.../end thread.

Already made two large posts explaining how regardless of the bug, it is tragically imbalanced.

And I already made a reply that you ignored about why you cannot simply look at the ability in a vacuum.

Bouvin · May 2015

Is streak blockable?

Bouvin · May 2015

Varicite wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

olemanwinter wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Yes, you are correct. However, there is a bug currently w/ Break Free that makes it hard to break Fear immediately sometimes.

You can still break it, just not the instant that you're hit w/ it. This does not happen all the time, but enough to be annoying.

Fair enough. But this is a thread about why fear should be "Blockable" by design, not unbreakable by bug.

imho, enough evidence and logic has been presented that it's clearly.../end thread.

Already made two large posts explaining how regardless of the bug, it is tragically imbalanced.

And I already made a reply that you ignored about why you cannot simply look at the ability in a vacuum.

There's also a state called no stamina that can cause the same issues, which most people mistake for it being unbreakable

Attorneyatlawl · May 2015

olemanwinter wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Already made two large posts explaining how regardless of the bug, it is tragically imbalanced.

But you...are wrong. :-/

Fear doesn't break on damage. (NB)
Luminous Shards does. (Temp)
Fossilize does. (DK)
Rune Prison does. (Sorc)

Fear is aoe, cc'ing three targets.
Luminous Shards cc's one target.
Fossilize cc's one target.
Rune Prison cc's one target.

Fear debuffs enemy damage and snares.
Luminous Shards does not.
Fossilize does not.
Rune Prison does not.

Fear buffs the caster with a major armor buff (5k armor).
Luminous Shards does not.
Fossilize restores stamina (5% of the players' maximum).
Rune Prison does not.

There is absolutely no balance there,

.

His example simply isn't valid in this context

. Have at it as you would like, though. The data simply isn't there to support that Mass Hysteria is balanced with any of the other class CC's, and it will end up nerfed at some time in the near-mid future. I don't need to convince a few stalwarts who enjoy it on their NB's just as I do, but the people who actually decide whether to change it or not based on player feedback such as those here. I've yet to see any evidence showing it is even close on balance taking into account the various slight differences and then large additional features the nightblade fear provides us with

.

Bouvin wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

olemanwinter wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Yes, you are correct. However, there is a bug currently w/ Break Free that makes it hard to break Fear immediately sometimes.

You can still break it, just not the instant that you're hit w/ it. This does not happen all the time, but enough to be annoying.

Fair enough. But this is a thread about why fear should be "Blockable" by design, not unbreakable by bug.

imho, enough evidence and logic has been presented that it's clearly.../end thread.

Already made two large posts explaining how regardless of the bug, it is tragically imbalanced.

And I already made a reply that you ignored about why you cannot simply look at the ability in a vacuum.

There's also a state called no stamina that can cause the same issues, which most people mistake for it being unbreakable

That's what a few people here are doing. I have been comparing them on all aspects, not just being a cc that can be dispelled by break free (other than the known bug with fear but that isn't part of the balance of the actual ability itself). You are so focused on being "correct" that you're missing the forest for the trees...

olemanwinter · May 2015

I'll make a deal counselor, see if you have some concept of actual balance and fairness.

If Fear was made blockable...would you concede that it should then also do damage as well?!?!?

Because all your comparisons are against abilities that do more than a simple, single CC.

olemanwinter · May 2015

Bouvin wrote: »

Is streak blockable?

No. but the stun effect is. But your point is taken....except by those who are being purposefully obtuse.

Attorneyatlawl · May 2015

olemanwinter wrote: »

I'll make a deal counselor, see if you have some concept of actual balance and fairness.

If Fear was made blockable...would you concede that it should then also do damage as well?!?!?

Because all your comparisons are against abilities that do more than a simple, single CC.

I'll just quote myself again to show the extra things that Fear does that aren't just "simple, single CC"

. Feel free to continue the thinly veiled "learn to play" comments regarding stamina management at your leisure.

"
Fear doesn't break on damage. (NB)
Luminous Shards does. (Temp)
Fossilize does. (DK)
Rune Prison does. (Sorc)

Fear is aoe, cc'ing three targets.
Luminous Shards cc's one target.
Fossilize cc's one target.
Rune Prison cc's one target.

Fear debuffs enemy damage and snares.
Luminous Shards does not.
Fossilize does not.
Rune Prison does not.

Fear buffs the caster with a major armor buff (5k armor).
Luminous Shards does not.
Fossilize restores stamina (5% of the players' maximum).
Rune Prison does not."

Shards deals a miniscule amount of damage per tick while you remain in its area. Rune Prison deals no damage. Fossilize deals a minor amount of damage, but also gives you a damage absorption for the same amount before dealing said damage in a magicka build (in a stamina build as per your complaint where you are being wrecking blowed out of the Fossilize, the damage absorption is actually greater than the damage the ability itself deals), so it is a wash (aka zero damage). If you don't have the facts on hand, why are you in a balance discussion on either side of the fence? I don't mean that in a rude way, but it's hard to talk about things you don't know about.

EDIT: Here's the real data, rather than forum speculation:

Encase an enemy in stone to stun them for 20s. When effect ends enemies take 1266 magic damage and remain rooted for 4 seconds.
Affected enemies can take (and absorb) 1899 damage before the stun is broken.

That is with 21000 health (out of Cyrodiil), 12000 magicka, 1270 spell power from your weapons, and 3000 weapon power + 29500 stamina.

Varicite · May 2015

@Attorneyatlawl

You are trying again to compare abilities in a vacuum w/out taking the big picture into account. Soooo, I'll quote myself, though I know this is in bad taste:

Varicite wrote: »

It's not a question of whether NBs have the best offense in the game; that is a simple truth.

Here is another simple truth: NBs have the worst defenses in the game as well, and depend heavily on their burst and disabling opponents for victory. They cannot turtle like other classes, and their escape is the only one neutered almost entirely by a potion.

Now, in the current meta where everybody values burst for kills over pretty much everything else, it creates a situation where the burstiest class w/ the best CC clearly looks like it stands head and shoulders above the others. This has really always been the case in the past as well, but it was balanced by proportionately larger health pools and MUCH longer TTKs.

That is no longer the case, so things look unbalanced, and pointers are being waved directly at NBs who are doing what they've always done. What was once considered a gimmicky "gank" class that hit hard and got hit harder is now what everyone wants to be running, because it's fully possible to dismantle opponents before they know what hit them and continue doing so.

Fix the extremely low TTKs and you "fix" the issue w/ NBs, relegating them once again to the balance that was always inteneded.

You want to compare Luminous Shards, Fossilize, and Rune Prison? Then compare what defenses those classes also have to go along w/ their lesser CCs. Compare the amount of healing capable for Templars and DKs. Compare the mobility and shields of a Sorc that aren't neutered by a potion.

Look at the whole picture.

olemanwinter · May 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

I'll just quote myself again

Awesome. I appreciate you taking the time to save me from having to read the rest of the post.

hamon · May 2015

why would fear be blockable? its a feeling. it,s like saying you could block happiness or sadness by raising a shield.

its not a missile or projectile.

now you can argue about how powerfull it should be , but not whether it should be blockable.

Sausage · May 2015

When every class has some OP-stuff, its stalemate. Every class has OP-stuff. Sorcs unlimited teleporting or DK's ability to tank 20+ guy. Its actually great way to design MMOs, we all know perfect balance doesnt exist in games, so why bother to search it, how many games have failed in searching it.

Tavore1138 · May 2015

Fear is preventable but not blockable, it is not blockable because there need to be counters to all things and fear is the counter to permablockers.

Fear seems worse now because of lag but that is true of many skills.

Personally I just break free from fear when hit, most times soon enough to live... sometimes not soon enough and I die.

Same with stamina NBs... get caught alone and you might well get burst down, survive the burst and you have a good chance to turn the tables.

Catch a bursting stamblade with 2 or more people and they will probably kill the NB.

Rock scissors paper really, all classes are powerful in the right situations.

Gargragrond · May 2015

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

Fear is preventable but not blockable, it is not blockable because there need to be counters to all things and fear is the counter to permablockers.

Well then, why not make the fear only affect blocking opponents? Right now it seems to be a "counter" to every non-permablocker as well.

Bashev · May 2015

Varicite wrote: »

Here is another simple truth: NBs have the worst defenses in the game as well, and depend heavily on their burst and disabling opponents for victory. They cannot turtle like other classes, and their escape is the only one neutered almost entirely by a potion.

Have you never seen a SAP essence tank?

Draxys · May 2015

Fear would be perfectly balanced if you could still block while feared. It appears overpowered because NBs can get off a surprise attack and a good ultimate (that costs FREAKING FIFTY ULT) before the feared person can get block back up after breaking the CC, if that even works.

Tavore1138 · May 2015

Gargragrond wrote: »

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

Fear is preventable but not blockable, it is not blockable because there need to be counters to all things and fear is the counter to permablockers.

Well then, why not make the fear only affect blocking opponents? Right now it seems to be a "counter" to every non-permablocker as well.

Most CC effects suck, they are supposed to suck but you can roll out ir break free of all of them including fear. I know 'cos that's how I get out of fear...

Every class has abilities I hate to face... Jabs, jesus beam, talons, streak, ambush etc etc. Combat is not supposed to be easy.

For every plus NBs have there are things that other classs can do to us that are as bad... I think people just get more angry with being ganked half way to a destination and so say NBs are too strong when the reality is that you probably get killed much more by other classes but as it is in full on combat you don't notice it so kuch and the rage is less as a result.

Gargragrond · May 2015

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

For every plus NBs have there are things that other classs can do to us that are as bad... I think people just get more angry with being ganked half way to a destination and so say NBs are too strong when the reality is that you probably get killed much more by other classes but as it is in full on combat you don't notice it so kuch and the rage is less as a result.

Well, for that we have kill counter etc. Mine shows that NBs score around 44% kills on me while for example DKs are below 10%, and I don't think the population numbers are the only reason. I'm not really going to argue for nerf this or that, just an observation that if your health drops <20k, you are as good as dead because of fear+ult+random execute, and there's not a lot you can really do about it. I just wish the fights wouldn't be so one sided. The other classes do nasty things too of course, but there's much more options and time to deal with those.

Tavore1138 · May 2015

Probably depends on many things, I am most killed by DKs, then Sorcs, then NBs then Temps. My most kills are against DKs, the NBs, then Temps, then Sorcs.

This is over several months of stats and lots of both kills and deaths.

My bet is if we took a statistically significant sample of all classes/styles of play then each one would have a slightly different order of killed and killed by classes, assuming a roughly equal number of each playing.

But the difference is when you are jumped and burst down by an NB you notice it as an EVENT... When you are taken down mid seige by the 300th DK using talons, standard and steelnado you just shrug get ressed and carry on...

Bashev · May 2015

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

This is over several months of stats and lots of both kills and deaths.

Does your data include deaths before 1.6. This could explain why you were killed mostly by DKs and you killed a lot of them too.

Stalwart385 · May 2015

Fear is great where its at. I'm a DK and know all too well it's place in pvp. If you play enough pvp you'll learn that not having enough stam to cc break is a death sentence.

BTW -
Other than the technicality of how they are countered, Fear and Fossilize are in no way equivalent . Fossilize wont get you killed, it shatters when you take a bit of damage. It's a strategic tool at best. Fear has no such restriction. You can go from full health to dead within the full length of the effect.

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO · May 2015

Fear is absolutely essential for the health of this game. Its the only way that you can break perma block or perma roll dodge. Without it game would stagger into endless defense performed by certain builds of certain classes and be a much worse game than it is.

Every single game play method must have a counter and fear is the counter to perma blockers.

danno8 · May 2015

It is only because TTK is so low that Fear is a problem.