Nirnhoned + Roll Spamming

glavius

kaithuzar wrote: »

Personally, I think all magic builds are screwed right now. Stam builds can rock up to 40k armor penetration rating, the most magic builds can get is maybe 16k spell penetration.
Since nirnhoned is capping everyone, it's easy for a magic build to blast you & run out of resources while doing no dmg, or option B hit you for a little less damage w/everlasting resources & still do no dmg.
I assume the magic users such as myself out there are getting kills based on fighting the few people in cyrodiil that haven't joined the nirn-brigade =/

Care to explain how stam builds get so much armor penetration? My (very limited) testing of sharpened shows it barely penetrates any armor.

Cthalion

Vis wrote: »

Cthalion wrote: »

Vis wrote: »

Think about how annoying it is to kill someone roll tanking.

Think of all the available counters to a roll spammer.

Now think how more and more of them are beginning to run full stamina dps while maintaining capped spell resistance.

Enough said.

Is this honest, or trolling? I can't tell. Certain skills hit past roll. Try them!

This is a learn to read issue. @Cthalion You failed to grasp the issue: most roll counters are magicka based and thus a roller with Nirnhoned becomes a super tank.

Rolling is not attacking, or doing anything useful, besides staying alive, often just briefly. I really can't understand the pathetic whining about this. First of all the only people who "perma roll" are bosmer with their broken racial, and even then to do so they sacrifice damage. Other races don't have "perma roll", or even close. Are you a sorc? You sound like one. OMG a guy rolled a few times, but I can BE 100 times. LOL.

I mean, FFS it really, really is a L2P issue in this case if you are so terrorized by dodge roll.

Cthalion

Hey, Kaith, if you think magicka is screwed, please come a try a fights with me=p That is with DK BTW.

Also, ever fight Araxleon? Guy is a big boss. Magicka. It works, people just haven't adapted and take easier stamina road.

Cthalion

Tankqull wrote: »

Vis wrote: »

Cthalion wrote: »

Vis wrote: »

Think about how annoying it is to kill someone roll tanking.

Think of all the available counters to a roll spammer.

Now think how more and more of them are beginning to run full stamina dps while maintaining capped spell resistance.

Enough said.

Is this honest, or trolling? I can't tell. Certain skills hit past roll. Try them!

This is a learn to read issue. @Cthalion You failed to grasp the issue: most roll counters are magicka based and thus a roller with Nirnhoned becomes a super tank.

this - and on top 50% of them have a delay reducing the effective dps under the HPS value of rally

Sensing bitterness from being wrecked by NBs because of poor play.

Also, because Rally is strictly NB specific. =p

ToRelax

Cthalion wrote: »

Vis wrote: »

Cthalion wrote: »

Vis wrote: »

Think about how annoying it is to kill someone roll tanking.

Think of all the available counters to a roll spammer.

Now think how more and more of them are beginning to run full stamina dps while maintaining capped spell resistance.

Enough said.

Is this honest, or trolling? I can't tell. Certain skills hit past roll. Try them!

This is a learn to read issue. @Cthalion You failed to grasp the issue: most roll counters are magicka based and thus a roller with Nirnhoned becomes a super tank.

Rolling is not attacking, or doing anything useful, besides staying alive, often just briefly. I really can't understand the pathetic whining about this. First of all the only people who "perma roll" are bosmer with their broken racial, and even then to do so they sacrifice damage. Other races don't have "perma roll", or even close. Are you a sorc? You sound like one. OMG a guy rolled a few times, but I can BE 100 times. LOL.

I mean, FFS it really, really is a L2P issue in this case if you are so terrorized by dodge roll.

You can attack while rolling, you don't need Bosmer to roll for a long time, you can still get quite some weapon damage even though you sacrifice a lot of it, and you can roll way, way more often than a Sorc who sacrifices his damage for sustain can Bolt Escape.
You sure sound like a NB .

Vis

Cthalion wrote: »

Vis wrote: »

Cthalion wrote: »

Vis wrote: »

Think about how annoying it is to kill someone roll tanking.

Think of all the available counters to a roll spammer.

Now think how more and more of them are beginning to run full stamina dps while maintaining capped spell resistance.

Enough said.

Is this honest, or trolling? I can't tell. Certain skills hit past roll. Try them!

This is a learn to read issue. @Cthalion You failed to grasp the issue: most roll counters are magicka based and thus a roller with Nirnhoned becomes a super tank.

Rolling is not attacking, or doing anything useful, besides staying alive, often just briefly. I really can't understand the pathetic whining about this. First of all the only people who "perma roll" are bosmer with their broken racial, and even then to do so they sacrifice damage. Other races don't have "perma roll", or even close. Are you a sorc? You sound like one. OMG a guy rolled a few times, but I can BE 100 times. LOL.

I mean, FFS it really, really is a L2P issue in this case if you are so terrorized by dodge roll.

Whoops, looks like you need to play more. Other races can and do perma-roll without any problems. These perma-rollers also have some of the best burst dps in the game and unlike shield stackers who devote skill slots to shields, these perma-rolling nirnhoned tanks can stop and three shot you in between rolls.

BE can only cancel out a fraction of the dps a perma-roller can (imagine if BE made all sorcs immune to all stamina damage) and is ten times easier to kill. Go out and pvp some more. You sound like you lack the experience to know what you're talking about (hint, there are several sets and builds where rolling is very useful).

Lava_Croft

Dodgerollers don't stun me which means it's much harder for them to escape.

wanderlustx5

"BE can only cancel out a fraction of the dps a perma-roller can"


While your comment is technically correct it does not address the issues that BE can indeed take you further afield as you travel a greater distance with it. I recently talked to a v1 sorc buddy who noted she could bolt escape 11 times in a row. My NB is a full stamina build with gold armor and enchants in stam cost reduction and I can not roll dodge 11 times in a row, maybe 9 at most then no stamina pool to cc break whereas a sorc still has a full stamina pool to try roll dodging them self. Additionally the delay between roll dodges appears to be greater then the delay between sequential bolt escapes. Additionally roll dodge does not stun the opponent like BE does (a huge unparallelled advantage no other class has). Additionally full stamina NB like myself have the option of only one majica based damage shield (resto staff) which pales in effectiveness compared to the inherent damage shield of sorcs which indeed lasts considerably longer then the 2.5 seconds of invisibility I get from my cloak. If anything stamina based roll dodge pales in comparison to BE in total damage mitigation due to greater range, greater spam ability, stun and inherit class based damage shields of the only class that can BE. I can of course fear people which since majica based sorcs tend not to use stamina they can cc break if they know what they are doing at all then be immune for 8 seconds, by which time they are 1/2 way across the map via BE. As for PVP experience reference I only have 2 captains and a first Sargent as my toons below and no sorc yet but you can guess what im "rolling" as my next toon. I can say I pvp >75% of time alone and tend to only do group raids 2 nights a week. Im certainly not unkillable when i roll dodge to most good sorcs with the same level gear and experience. In duals I can say sorcs win 75% of the time against me 1v1 currently and yes i roll dodge then also. The same can not be said of Templars and DK's.

rfennell_ESO

wanderlustx5 wrote: »

While your comment is technically correct it does not address the issues that BE can indeed take you further afield as you travel a greater distance with it. I recently talked to a v1 sorc buddy who noted she could bolt escape 11 times in a row. My NB is a full stamina build with gold armor and enchants in stam cost reduction and I can not roll dodge 11 times in a row,

My sorc can BE about 25 times in a row.

My NB (not a bosmer fyi) can dodge roll and sprint perpetually. If that isn't clear, I can dodge roll forever (with potions usage).

oh and fyi, the surviveability of sorcs is mostly about healing ward. You know a skill anyone using a resto staff can use. Though about now it's mostly only sorcs with a resto staff equipped, with the exception of the rare magicka nightblade (who survive quite well without even having hardened ward, that's how good healing ward is)

Ezareth

Rust_in_Peace wrote: »

If a NB is actually spamming roll they aren't wearing more than 1 or 2 nirnhoned. Way of Air and Skirmisher sets aren't crafted and don't allow for Nirn armor. The Bloodspawn pieces don't have nirn on them either. Even the dirtball dwemer pieces don't have it. Those are the real regen sets you need to be running to be a "roll spammer".

There are more bursty setups like Hundings and Morag Tong where it's possible to stack Nirn but regen will take a big hit.

Lastly there is pure burst setups that use food instead of drink and probably run snipe. These are definitely not spamming roll and even with full Nirn will fold like wet paper.

Sometimes when I read these forums it's like people combine all three of these and say "this is why NB is OP, cause they do it all at once".

I know just what you mean....the same thing happens with Sorcs all the time.

As a Bosmer NB however I have over 1800 Stamina regen at Lv42 and I have zero stamina set bonuses. At VR14 I'll have well over 2000 Stamina recovery with *zero* set bonuses into stamina recovery and that's not even counting Battle Rush or my Tri-pot regen bonuses. I already demonstrated that is possible to "permaroll" for 5-7 minutes in this scenario, a couple minutes less if you're spamming it as fast as possible which rarely is necessary.

I could run 5 piece hundings rage with 4 Nirnhoned, 4 Piece Shadow walker, and 2 Piece Way of Air/Alessian Order and get 3000 stamina recovery with a tripot active easily with over 40K Spell Resist. Probably more when you factor in the passives/champion passives.

Yeah it wouldn't be a maximum damage build but it would have virtually unlimited stamina and a large amount of weapon damage and crit and insane passive resistances.

wanderlustx5

"As a Bosmer NB however I have over 1800 Stamina regen at Lv42 and I have zero stamina set bonuses. At VR14 I'll have well over 2000 Stamina recovery with *zero* set bonuses into stamina recovery and that's not even counting Battle Rush or my Tri-pot regen bonuses. "

This is via drink bonus I presume? As im a bosmer vr14 NB and i dont have anywhere near that w/o drink bonus. And I do have stamina set bonus.

wanderlustx5

"My sorc can BE about 25 times in a row.

My NB (not a bosmer fyi) can dodge roll and sprint perpetually. If that isn't clear, I can dodge roll forever (with potions usage)."

So it still does not negate the advantages of BE vs roll dodge. Additionally I have multiple friends who are major or above in alliance war rank as sorcs who do infact use the class based damage shield, dont get me wrong im not calling for a nerf, my entire point is the bias against roll dodge is unfounded as there are better class based ability's and also anyone can use roll dodge should they want, not anyone can bolt escape, and not anyone can stack damage shields.

rfennell_ESO

wanderlustx5 wrote: »

"

So it still does not negate the advantages of BE vs roll dodge. Additionally I have multiple friends who are major or above in alliance war rank as sorcs who do infact use the class based damage shield, dont get me wrong im not calling for a nerf, my entire point is the bias against roll dodge is unfounded as there are better class based ability's and also anyone can use roll dodge should they want, not anyone can bolt escape, and not anyone can stack damage shields.

It's actually not as effective as dodge roll, you can be hit while Bolt escaping and only the first active orb absorbs spell projectiles (note the word spell), you can't while dodge rolling, it can be total immunity to damage. It does take you a hell of a lot further tho, and does allow you to fully disengage from combat easier than most other skills.

As for the hardened ward thing... I was pointing out it's not just the class shield that makes sorcs powerful and surviveable. It's healing ward... Not saying that hardened ward (the sorc class shield) doesn't help... it sure does. But there seems to be a disconnect at times when people forget that every sorc is also using healing ward on top of hardened ward.

Molsondry

There is a difference between a sorcerer spamming shield and using BE and a perma dodge rolling animation caelling stam build NB.

As you didnt know Sorc need to spam abilities to keep alive most of you saying sorc is op didnt understand yet that a magika buld sorc... you CC him.. on the third cc he is *** .. no more stam to break out 100%. Maybe l2p issue?

While the damn stam nb Dodge roll >skill >animation cancel into dodge roll>skill>animation canceling into dodge roll.

There a huge difference. and thats what it makes stam nb SOOOOO MUCH BETTER then magika sorc.

Varicite

Ezareth wrote: »

Now you know why the same people who want Nirnhoned to remain as it is are also against any changes to Dodge rolls, and indeed are pulling to have it buffed further.

It's also why I haven't played my sorc in over a week.

#StamIsHard

I think dodge rolls are fine and that Nirnhoned needs to be changed.

Did I just blow your mind?

Soulac

Molsondry wrote: »

There is a difference between a sorcerer spamming shield and using BE and a perma dodge rolling animation caelling stam build NB.

As you didnt know Sorc need to spam abilities to keep alive most of you saying sorc is op didnt understand yet that a magika buld sorc... you CC him.. on the third cc he is *** .. no more stam to break out 100%. Maybe l2p issue?

While the damn stam nb Dodge roll >skill >animation cancel into dodge roll>skill>animation canceling into dodge roll.

There a huge difference. and thats what it makes stam nb SOOOOO MUCH BETTER then magika sorc.

YOU don´t got enough stam to break three stuns, doesn´t apply to all Sorcs.
Also a NB using dodge cancel is faster OOS than you think.. except if he´s a Bosmer which racials are just op.

Tankqull

Cthalion wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

Vis wrote: »

Cthalion wrote: »

Vis wrote: »

Think about how annoying it is to kill someone roll tanking.

Think of all the available counters to a roll spammer.

Now think how more and more of them are beginning to run full stamina dps while maintaining capped spell resistance.

Enough said.

Is this honest, or trolling? I can't tell. Certain skills hit past roll. Try them!

This is a learn to read issue. @Cthalion You failed to grasp the issue: most roll counters are magicka based and thus a roller with Nirnhoned becomes a super tank.

this - and on top 50% of them have a delay reducing the effective dps under the HPS value of rally

Sensing bitterness from being wrecked by NBs because of poor play.

Also, because Rally is strictly NB specific. =p

why should i be bitter about a nb running away from me?
all i´m saying is that the delay of the range spell abilities beeing able to hit someone rolling is crippling the dps of those skills by such a degree that they are easily outhealed by by the heals accessable as any stamina class.

Ezareth

wanderlustx5 wrote: »

"As a Bosmer NB however I have over 1800 Stamina regen at Lv42 and I have zero stamina set bonuses. At VR14 I'll have well over 2000 Stamina recovery with *zero* set bonuses into stamina recovery and that's not even counting Battle Rush or my Tri-pot regen bonuses. "

This is via drink bonus I presume? As im a bosmer vr14 NB and i dont have anywhere near that w/o drink bonus. And I do have stamina set bonus.

Yes running VR40 blue mag/stam drink.

I don't understand how any VR14 Bosmer NB could have such low of Stamina recovery.

Perhaps you're not a Vampire but if so you should be a Werewolf as there is zero reason not to be.

Base VR14 Stam Recovery is 514.
Werewolf (15%) 591
Nightblade (30%) 745
7/7 Medium Armor (28%) 889
Bosmer (21%) 997
10% Stamina Recovery Champion Points 1096.

With this setup you would be getting 2.134 points of regen for every base increase to stam regen you had.

VR14 Blue Stam/Magicka drink is 372 base and would add 794
Each VR14 Stamina Recovery Set bonus would add 126 Base Stamina recovery or 269 Stamina recovery each.

With Drink and a single Stamina set bonus you would be at 2160 Stamina recovery.

If you're drinking stamina pots or tri-stat pots you'd be getting 2.354 multiplied to each base stamina recovery so your recovery then would be 2382. And that is only with 10% Stamina recovery in champion points. I'm running with a little over 15% myself and then there is Battle Rush and if you have more than one stamina recovery it is easy to get well over 3K stam recovery.

Ezareth

Soulac wrote: »

Molsondry wrote: »

There is a difference between a sorcerer spamming shield and using BE and a perma dodge rolling animation caelling stam build NB.

As you didnt know Sorc need to spam abilities to keep alive most of you saying sorc is op didnt understand yet that a magika buld sorc... you CC him.. on the third cc he is *** .. no more stam to break out 100%. Maybe l2p issue?

While the damn stam nb Dodge roll >skill >animation cancel into dodge roll>skill>animation canceling into dodge roll.

There a huge difference. and thats what it makes stam nb SOOOOO MUCH BETTER then magika sorc.

YOU don´t got enough stam to break three stuns, doesn´t apply to all Sorcs.
Also a NB using dodge cancel is faster OOS than you think.. except if he´s a Bosmer which racials are just op.

Yeah sorcs running my build or something similar maybe but there are some expensive sacrifices to add that kind of Stamina Regen/Cost Reduction to a sorc. 95% of the Sorcs out there die on the second or third CC in a row. It happens so often that most of the NBs I fight now don't bother to actually fight, they just play the Fear > Evade game until they either bug fear or I don't break free (which for me only happens when it bugs). This is why most of them eventually die unless they're wearing Nirnhoned as I never run out of stamina and can eventually kill them while they're spamming dodge roll/vigor while waiting for my CC immunity to fade.

Tankqull

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Dodgerollers don't stun me which means it's much harder for them to escape.

Varicite

Off balance isn't a stun <.<

wanderlustx5

Base VR14 Stam Recovery is 514.
Werewolf (15%) 591
Nightblade (30%) 745
7/7 Medium Armor (28%) 889
Bosmer (21%) 997
10% Stamina Recovery Champion Points 1096.

I am a WW, the drink is the key as I run food, and i do have one 126 stam recovery set on (shoulders). The only other minor change is using 2H 5M. Your numbers above look right and with drink im sure i would be up in the 1800's but im not complaining, I hit pretty hard with my current setup and if i wanted to loose some health and have more stamina i would hit even harder. There are different ways to run a NB. Some have huge burst damage.

"Each VR14 Stamina Recovery Set bonus would add 126 Base Stamina recovery or 269 Stamina recovery each."

Seems to only add 126 for my one piece 126 recovery shoulders, , not sure where the 269 comes from.
I have lots of points in recovery and also stamina cost reduction, full reduction jewelery enchants (gold). So things are not as costly as they seem.

wanderlustx5

Tankqull wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Dodgerollers don't stun me which means it's much harder for them to escape.

Thats not a stun

Bouvin

Teargrants wrote: »

NoRefunds wrote: »

i have 4 piece nirnohed, 34k spell res buffed, and i roll dodge, and i get roflstomped by good sorcs anyway, imagine without nirnohed....all other classes magika builds are kinda fine, sorcs are not fine....

I have 5 piece heavy, 21k armor buffed, and I bolt escape, and I get roflstomped by good NBs anyway, imagine without heavy....all other classes stamina builds are kinda fine, NBs are not fine....

A bolt escaping sorc complaining about nightblades.

This wins the forums.

Tintinabula

Tankqull wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Dodgerollers don't stun me which means it's much harder for them to escape.

Ive checked this out..150? points in Atronach while having to give up all DPS bonuses in ritual just isn't worth it.(and I say give up all points in Ritual cause that's the only way I could get this "soonish")

P.S. Im assuming this is like a "disorient" yes?..so it will still need to be broken out of.

Zsymon

Kater_Murr wrote: »

U should at least sometimes read others' comments, because your laughable suggestions about Daedric Curse and Magicka Detonation were already discussed. They're laughable on their own, but in context of this thread (which is, u know, also 'bout broken Nirnhoned trait exploit) they're laughable threefold. And idea of snaring a guy who has 3k+ stamina regen is just brilliant.

What does snaring someone have to do with their stamina regen? You can't dodge or break free out of a snare. The only way to get rid of a snare is through some kind of purge.

Teargrants

Bouvin wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

NoRefunds wrote: »

i have 4 piece nirnohed, 34k spell res buffed, and i roll dodge, and i get roflstomped by good sorcs anyway, imagine without nirnohed....all other classes magika builds are kinda fine, sorcs are not fine....

I have 5 piece heavy, 21k armor buffed, and I bolt escape, and I get roflstomped by good NBs anyway, imagine without heavy....all other classes stamina builds are kinda fine, NBs are not fine....

A bolt escaping sorc complaining about nightblades.

This wins the forums.

Did you even read the quote I was parodying? Perhaps I can interest you in one of these?

Zsymon

I definitely think this NB panic is going into a self-enhancing viscous cycle.

Zsymon

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

wanderlustx5 wrote: »

While your comment is technically correct it does not address the issues that BE can indeed take you further afield as you travel a greater distance with it. I recently talked to a v1 sorc buddy who noted she could bolt escape 11 times in a row. My NB is a full stamina build with gold armor and enchants in stam cost reduction and I can not roll dodge 11 times in a row,

My sorc can BE about 25 times in a row.

My NB (not a bosmer fyi) can dodge roll and sprint perpetually. If that isn't clear, I can dodge roll forever (with potions usage).

oh and fyi, the surviveability of sorcs is mostly about healing ward. You know a skill anyone using a resto staff can use. Though about now it's mostly only sorcs with a resto staff equipped, with the exception of the rare magicka nightblade (who survive quite well without even having hardened ward, that's how good healing ward is)

How on earth do you sprint perpetually if you have no stam regen while sprinting?

I have 2500 stam regen with my NB and I cannot dodge roll perpetually, I can roll maybe 13 times in combat, without using any skills, a little more if I use a potion. But I'll run out of stamina before I can chug the second potion.

Also Sorc survivability has little to do with Healing Ward, because Healing Ward only becomes very strong if you are near dead, and if you can get a Sorc to near death, then you can kill him as well. Sorc survivability is 90% dependant on having a strong Hardened Ward. Most times a sorc never has to use Healing Ward, because he never gets so low in health, at least not against the average player.

The only way to use Healing Ward without Hardened Ward, is letting the enemy beat you almost to death each time before you use the Healing Ward, this makes no sense. Healing Ward when your hp is full is like 1-2K points.

Ezareth

Zsymon wrote: »

How on earth do you sprint perpetually if you have no stam regen while sprinting?

I have 2500 stam regen with my NB and I cannot dodge roll perpetually, I can roll maybe 10 times in combat, without using any skills, a little more if I use a potion.

Also Sorc survivability has little to do with Healing Ward, because Healing Ward only becomes very strong if you are near dead, and if you can get a Sorc to near death, then you can kill him as well. Sorc survivability is 90% dependant on having a strong Hardened Ward. Most times a sorc never has to use Healing Ward, because he never gets so low in health, at least not against the average player.

Perhaps you shouldn't be wearing fully heavy armor with magicka cost reduction enchants if you can only roll 10 times in combat with 2500 stam regen.