Nirnhoned + Roll Spamming

Vis

Some people seem to still be missing the point of the thread.

Dodge roll is annoying enough and should be looked at before all of Cyrodil is zergs rolling around each other (kind of getting there already). However, it becomes ridiculous when you must fight a perma-dodger who ALSO has capped resistance AND can 3 shot you.

Zsymon wrote: »

I don't get why people are complaining about dodge roll, every class and build has powerful spells and skills available that ignore dodge. Magicka Detonation can hit for 20K and goes right through dodge, flame whip, puncturing strikes, surprise attack, daedric curse, crushing shock.. they all ignore dodge.

Whoops, crushing shock does not ignore dodge. 20k? Haha, nope. But notice what the rest have in common? Think of it this way. My curse is going to hit you for 9k when it detonates. That is 3k dps. Cut it in half and I have 1.5k dps. You have (low estimate) 6k hps via Vigor/Rally. I need 4 COCURRENT curses just to overcome your hps. Then more dps to actually bring your health down. Are you getting the picture?

I have watched these Ninrhoned dodge tanks tank groups of 10+ for significant periods of time. No sorc (no matter the shields) could ever do that. Scary thing is that these tanks also hit harder than sorcs. The problem becomes exasperated by those who also can add cloak into their rotation.

There is a reason there is more nightblades out there every day.

Am I asking for a nerf on a specific class or skill? No. I am asking though to nerf the ability to combine all these mechanics to become stronger tanks than actual tanks.

Lyzaaa

Vis wrote: »

Am I asking for a nerf on a specific class or skill? No. I am asking though to nerf the ability to combine all these mechanics to become stronger tanks than actual tanks.

Exactly what i have been saying, nirnhoned is one thing. But one of the problems at least partially, is the 30% stamina regen nightblades get. The funny part is tho, ur post was cut clear of how it is and u didnt even mention fear yet ^

Nor did you mention how "dangerous" it is to mess around or basicly HAVE to use spells that have cast time against a class with the highest burst, I doubt in a 1v1 scene ANY NB that has a brain, or any player basicly will let you cast that.

I mean your right how ridiculous it is, but the thing is you wont even get to that scenario u just descriibed in a 1v1 situation, cause u'll be dead. The amount of resource people have to use, the amount of risk they have to take just to have a chance of killing a NB is just ridiclous.

Nor did you mention "detection potions" in ur post.

I've been pointing out Nb's strneghts etc but i havent yet put my conclusion to it. THE CLASS IS BROKEN atm. Tankiest, most damage, most mobile, most cc - And for those whining about a class shield ( ... i dunno like srsly how can u ask for that lol ) You dont need one if you have acces to Rally or vigor, but more importantly acces to infinite dodgerolling, and plenty of other broken mechanics.

It's just sad, even more sad is everyone rerolling and scaling of this issue hasnt even reached it's cap yet due to champion points. Once again i'll say it to the people that know this class is broken but dont want to admit it for obvious reasons --> Just wait till ur left to fight ur own class and everyone is dodgerolling becoming endless and endless fights involving no skill whatsoever apart from clicking that bound dodgeroll key.

Zsymon

What solution would you suggest then?

Cody

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

I rolled DC because there are some AD I've always wanted to kill. I'm going to play around with either S&B or resto staff. I want to see how useful S&B with puncture with a Master sword is and Stamina NBs with reflect seem like they'd be amusing (and a terror for a sorc to fight). The bow just always seems like a cowards weapon to me.

Puncture is bad, even w/ the heal from the master's sword. Although I guess for a NB it might make a difference.
Low slash is better.

Question: Does the Pierce Armor morph reduce spell resistance twice? Once for the Armor, and once again on the Spell resistance? Or are the two separated for the purpose of the calculation? Actually now that I think about it it probably doesn't stack with mark which would probably render it useless. Damn I was hoping to have a reason to use that sword.

Cody wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

you think stamina builds are hard NOW? you should have tried one pre 1.6 @Ezareth. then you would understand why magicka builds have such a stigma surrounding them. they were OP as heck pre 1.6, and stamina was UP as heck pre 1.6

I am not trying to talk crap, just wanted to drop some insight in:)

if you ever need help with your stamblade, contact me. I've played them since beta.

He's being sarcastic Cody.

well, this is embarrassing.

still Ezareth, if you need help with a stamina NB contact me.

I'm having a blast with my nightblade and I make it a special point to kill each and every sorc I see. I'm ohh so hoping to find a night blade who rerolled sorc. I mean I'm only level 30 now the best I can 1vx right now is 2-3 people depending on their class and skill but its absurd how I'm bursting down people with 30K hitpoints in seconds while in the non-vet campaign. There is so much synergy with the NB class right now.

The only things I have no clue about are stealth and whether I'm hidden or what. The whole concept of stealth is annoying to me. I usually just say screw it and play my NB like my sorc. Let them see me coming, I only use the bow right now for a ranged interrupt. I'll use cloak as an escape or for guaranteed crits(lol) but seriously 1600 stamina regen at L30 and no more CP into stamina regen than magicka? Insane.

I don't see how NBs say they don't have class heals. Mark Target. Kill target in 3-4 seconds and finish with execute... Full Heal. Mark next target rinse repeat. I'll get fear some time tonight and then the real fun will begin.

mark target requires that you kill the target for the heal, which must be done quick in 1vX scenarios. This is hard if your enemies actually know what they are doing. This heal is also useless in 1v1 scenarios for obvious reasons.

NBs do have class heals... they either just outright suck or are very situational. we have to go 2H, go thru a year long grind to get vigor, or use a resto staff, to get any decent self heals.

then again, if NBs did have self heals, they would be OP, so I myself tolerate it.

and how the hell do you have 1600 regen at level 30??? my Vr14 only has 1.1k regen!:(

i bet its because of CPs.... f***. why did ZOS have to put those passives in the CS? why cant they have let resource regen stay with appropriate armors and actual in-game items/powers?

bah, oh well. Just dont abuse it too much plz:) leave the endless resource crap in the vet servers where it belongs.

what is your BB characters name?perhaps i will hunt you down....

I'm at just under 1800 Regen now at Level 35 with L35 Stam/Mag drink. It isn't because I have massive CPs, I still have under less than 200 CPs.
Nightblade 30%.
Vampire 10%.
Bosmer 21%.
7 Piece Medium Armor 28%.
*10% Stamina regen in CPs.
~1800 Stam regen is easy, I don't even have a single Stam regen set bonus.

#BosmerMasterRace

The name is Ezareth-Ali you can't miss it, just look for the zerg swarm on the NB/Templar combo.

well,thats balance right there. 17K resource pools, 1.8K regen every 2 seconds......

I will still kill you though. broken mechanics or not

First you'll have to take out the templar he's with that has 1800 magic regen and will be spamming BoL

fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuudge

Lava_Croft

Magicka Sorcerers and Stamina Nightblades.

Zsymon

How about changing Refreshing Shadows to 15% stamina regen and 70% reduced fall damage.

Cody

Zsymon wrote: »

How about changing Refreshing Shadows to 15% stamina regen and 70% reduced fall damage.

45% extra stamina regen for NBs....

NO

as for the fall damage.... make that a thieves guild passive(when the thieves guild comes in anyway)

Zsymon

Cody wrote: »

Zsymon wrote: »

How about changing Refreshing Shadows to 15% stamina regen and 70% reduced fall damage.

45% extra stamina regen for NBs....

NO

as for the fall damage.... make that a thieves guild passive(when the thieves guild comes in anyway)

Err, the 15% would replace the 30%. SO NBs would have 15% class stamina recovery instead of 30%.

Kater_Murr

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Kater_Murr

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kaithuzar

Rust_in_Peace wrote: »

Show me a single build that uses crafted gear with full nirn as stamina and I will show you a build that can't kill a damn thing.

#SorcTearsareDelicious

All you gotta do is run 3 ashen grip with whatever other gear you choose to run; morag tong et al...

kaithuzar

Personally, I think all magic builds are screwed right now. Stam builds can rock up to 40k armor penetration rating, the most magic builds can get is maybe 16k spell penetration.
Since nirnhoned is capping everyone, it's easy for a magic build to blast you & run out of resources while doing no dmg, or option B hit you for a little less damage w/everlasting resources & still do no dmg.
I assume the magic users such as myself out there are getting kills based on fighting the few people in cyrodiil that haven't joined the nirn-brigade =/

Zsymon

Maybe you can have Nirnhoned add a set amount of spell resistance based on level, rather than increasing your existing resistance by a percentage. That way all builds benefit equally from it.

Cthalion

Vis wrote: »

Think about how annoying it is to kill someone roll tanking.

Think of all the available counters to a roll spammer.

Now think how more and more of them are beginning to run full stamina dps while maintaining capped spell resistance.

Enough said.

Is this honest, or trolling? I can't tell. Certain skills hit past roll. Try them!

Zsymon

Not being able to kill a roll spammer is a serious learn to play issue. Just hit them with abilities that ignore roll dodge, and they will drop dead trying to avoid them spamming roll. People are firing projectiles at roll spammers and are mortified that they can't kill him, come to the forum to complain instead of trying out counters.

Every single class and role has access to powerful abilities that go right through dodge roll. Learn which they are, and use them, instead of complaining about a good game mechanic.

The point is to adapt to what people are using in Cyrodil, not just sticking with your favorite build and expect that you can kill everyone. I bet there are a lot of Sorcs who never bothered slotting Daedric Curse, because it can't be spammed for massive dps, well guess what, it goes through dodge. Combine it with Detonation and your target will blow up and die trying to dodge it.

Or just snare your enemy and spam Elemental Ring while he is dodging, he'll die so fast.

Cthalion

Zsymon wrote: »

Not being able to kill a roll spammer is a serious learn to play issue. Just hit them with abilities that ignore roll dodge, and they will drop dead trying to avoid them spamming roll. People are firing projectiles at roll spammers and are mortified that they can't kill him, come to the forum to complain instead of trying out counters.

Every single class and role has access to powerful abilities that go right through dodge roll. Learn which they are, and use them, instead of complaining about a good game mechanic.

"Not being able to kill a roll spammer is a serious learn to play issue.."

You win the thread. GG and well said.

Zsymon

Cthalion wrote: »

Zsymon wrote: »

Not being able to kill a roll spammer is a serious learn to play issue. Just hit them with abilities that ignore roll dodge, and they will drop dead trying to avoid them spamming roll. People are firing projectiles at roll spammers and are mortified that they can't kill him, come to the forum to complain instead of trying out counters.

Every single class and role has access to powerful abilities that go right through dodge roll. Learn which they are, and use them, instead of complaining about a good game mechanic.

"Not being able to kill a roll spammer is a serious learn to play issue.."

You win the thread. GG and well said.

Why complain about something when there is a powerful enough counter accessible to all classes?

Cthalion

"What is wrong with using abilities that go through dodge?"

Nothing is wrong with that at all. I'm totally agreeing with your point. Instead of whining about non existent "perma-roll" people should just use aforementioned abilities and hit through it.=)

Zsymon

Cthalion wrote: »

"What is wrong with using abilities that go through dodge?"

Nothing is wrong with that at all. I'm totally agreeing with your point. Instead of whining about non existent "perma-roll" people should just use aforementioned abilities and hit through it.=)

Sorry, must have misunderstood your reply.

Soulac

I'm a stamina nightblade and all my attacks are dodge able with the ability and the major buff, still I kill all perm rolling players and barely anyone is able to escape. One good placed stun and they die cause rolling is the only defense they have.
Also you're able to hit between those rolls, so use animation cancel to increase your chances.

Seriously, I got more problems with Shield stacking or perm blocking players, just cause shields stay active even if you're stunned and blocking people got too much defense to get bursted.

Dodge is strong, especially if you're only on range, but it got enough counters and is totally fine in my opinion.

Saft

Zsymon wrote: »

Cthalion wrote: »

Zsymon wrote: »

Not being able to kill a roll spammer is a serious learn to play issue. Just hit them with abilities that ignore roll dodge, and they will drop dead trying to avoid them spamming roll. People are firing projectiles at roll spammers and are mortified that they can't kill him, come to the forum to complain instead of trying out counters.

Every single class and role has access to powerful abilities that go right through dodge roll. Learn which they are, and use them, instead of complaining about a good game mechanic.

"Not being able to kill a roll spammer is a serious learn to play issue.."

You win the thread. GG and well said.

Why complain about something when there is a powerful enough counter accessible to all classes?

LOL

Kater_Murr

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Ezareth

Zsymon wrote: »

Not being able to kill a roll spammer is a serious learn to play issue. Just hit them with abilities that ignore roll dodge, and they will drop dead trying to avoid them spamming roll. People are firing projectiles at roll spammers and are mortified that they can't kill him, come to the forum to complain instead of trying out counters.

Every single class and role has access to powerful abilities that go right through dodge roll. Learn which they are, and use them, instead of complaining about a good game mechanic.

The point is to adapt to what people are using in Cyrodil, not just sticking with your favorite build and expect that you can kill everyone. I bet there are a lot of Sorcs who never bothered slotting Daedric Curse, because it can't be spammed for massive dps, well guess what, it goes through dodge. Combine it with Detonation and your target will blow up and die trying to dodge it.

Or just snare your enemy and spam Elemental Ring while he is dodging, he'll die so fast.

I'd love to see you play a Sorc and kill any skilled NB roll dodge spammer right now. I've seen good NBs have 3 sorcs on them for minutes without being able to kill them. Simple fact is with Nirnhoned, unlimited dodge rolls and Vigor heals you're just never going to kill them solo over any period of time. You'll run out of magicka far before he runs out of stamina just trying to keep up to him and Velocious curse has a limited amount of DPS, Resto staff heavy attacks require that you walk slowly while he rolls away and mana detonation is easy to LoS, and also forces you to walk slowly while you cast. If they're roll dodging around a large tree or rock, forget it. You'll never kill them without another NB using fear/Concealed Weapon or a DK spamming whip/talons.

I'm not even complaining about this as it is the state of the game with unlimited resources, but I find your L2P statement is pretty ironic. You guys come on the forums and downplay your class and abilities while acting like all someone has is spam some abilities and these rollers will just "drop dead".

Ezareth

Soulac wrote: »

I'm a stamina nightblade and all my attacks are dodge able with the ability and the major buff, still I kill all perm rolling players and barely anyone is able to escape. One good placed stun and they die cause rolling is the only defense they have.
Also you're able to hit between those rolls, so use animation cancel to increase your chances.

Seriously, I got more problems with Shield stacking or perm blocking players, just cause shields stay active even if you're stunned and blocking people got too much defense to get bursted.

Dodge is strong, especially if you're only on range, but it got enough counters and is totally fine in my opinion.

Ohh I kill permarollers(well maybe not perma in non-vet yet but non-stop dodge rolling nonetheless) on my Nightblade easily. Wrecking blow goes through dodge roll half the time and then there is the magick fear combo that will kill anyone. Buggy game is buggy.

Lyzaaa

Zsymon wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

Zsymon wrote: »

How about changing Refreshing Shadows to 15% stamina regen and 70% reduced fall damage.

45% extra stamina regen for NBs....

NO

as for the fall damage.... make that a thieves guild passive(when the thieves guild comes in anyway)

Err, the 15% would replace the 30%. SO NBs would have 15% class stamina recovery instead of 30%.

Still to much regen. One of the things i'd like to see is "static passives" not all of them maybe but at least racials. Instead of giving a % give a X amount scaling per lvl. It would be an upgrade for certain players right now, and it'd be a nerf to the peopel "stacking"

The part i dislike about this game is ; the only way to be competitive is stacking it all into one resource - classes being the best at that will be the strongest, NBs and sorcs scale defensively and offensively thru this ( its just plain ***, i know ) - thru roll dodge and shielding.

Their regen would get a nerf, and people thinking actually going something different ( paly something they like "play what you want hah" ) would get a buff to their regen. Right now it's like, hmm well if i want to build this im goign to lose X stamina regen, i'll just drop in some flat amount of stamina regen .. but wait if i get more % thats way more efficient.. but then i might aswlel go full medium armor and that set to benefit fully of it, before u know it ur min/maxing like everyone else is ( forced to do)

This basicly means "play what you like" is nonexistant in PvP.. at least if you want a serious shot.

Lyzaaa

Ezareth wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

I'm a stamina nightblade and all my attacks are dodge able with the ability and the major buff, still I kill all perm rolling players and barely anyone is able to escape. One good placed stun and they die cause rolling is the only defense they have.
Also you're able to hit between those rolls, so use animation cancel to increase your chances.

Seriously, I got more problems with Shield stacking or perm blocking players, just cause shields stay active even if you're stunned and blocking people got too much defense to get bursted.

Dodge is strong, especially if you're only on range, but it got enough counters and is totally fine in my opinion.

Ohh I kill permarollers(well maybe not perma in non-vet yet but non-stop dodge rolling nonetheless) on my Nightblade easily. Wrecking blow goes through dodge roll half the time and then there is the magick fear combo that will kill anyone. Buggy game is buggy.

Well "barely anyone is able to escape" is pretty much cause ur a NB urself, one of the highest stamina regen is probably on ur char right now, hell ur probably one of the strongest NB's just by pure stats. The only way people can dodge ur burst is roll dodging, and they have to break fear, ofc u kill them.

When do people realize that whoever has the highest resource management is going to win, its always nightblade thus nightblade wins, in short basicly. If u cant burst NB's ur not going to win, sadly cause of dark cloak, rally, vigor in combination with the endless dodge roll this is impossible.

People have to realize that any other class than NB is FORCED to break free and dodge roll and cause we have naturally less tsamina regen we're boudn to lose, unless ur a sorc that can shield like fkin crazy, but hey thats another strong, or as some say op class. But people dont get how broken NB is cause ur always going to lose, the only way a NB loses if his opponent is a better player. Else ur doomed > u will be forced to go on the defense and from that point onward its unevitable ur going to lose. Ur already dead.

I facepalm to whoever says NB shouldnt deserve a nerf, or tries to defend this class, as if it takes seriously ANY skill atm to play that class, its beyond broken. The only class that can give a fight to a NB is the sorc.

Vis

Cthalion wrote: »

Vis wrote: »

Think about how annoying it is to kill someone roll tanking.

Think of all the available counters to a roll spammer.

Now think how more and more of them are beginning to run full stamina dps while maintaining capped spell resistance.

Enough said.

Is this honest, or trolling? I can't tell. Certain skills hit past roll. Try them!

This is a learn to read issue. @Cthalion You failed to grasp the issue: most roll counters are magicka based and thus a roller with Nirnhoned becomes a super tank.

Tankqull

Vis wrote: »

Cthalion wrote: »

Vis wrote: »

Think about how annoying it is to kill someone roll tanking.

Think of all the available counters to a roll spammer.

Now think how more and more of them are beginning to run full stamina dps while maintaining capped spell resistance.

Enough said.

Is this honest, or trolling? I can't tell. Certain skills hit past roll. Try them!

This is a learn to read issue. @Cthalion You failed to grasp the issue: most roll counters are magicka based and thus a roller with Nirnhoned becomes a super tank.

this - and on top 50% of them have a delay reducing the effective dps under the HPS value of rally

Ezareth

Lyzaaa wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

I'm a stamina nightblade and all my attacks are dodge able with the ability and the major buff, still I kill all perm rolling players and barely anyone is able to escape. One good placed stun and they die cause rolling is the only defense they have.
Also you're able to hit between those rolls, so use animation cancel to increase your chances.

Seriously, I got more problems with Shield stacking or perm blocking players, just cause shields stay active even if you're stunned and blocking people got too much defense to get bursted.

Dodge is strong, especially if you're only on range, but it got enough counters and is totally fine in my opinion.

Ohh I kill permarollers(well maybe not perma in non-vet yet but non-stop dodge rolling nonetheless) on my Nightblade easily. Wrecking blow goes through dodge roll half the time and then there is the magick fear combo that will kill anyone. Buggy game is buggy.

Well "barely anyone is able to escape" is pretty much cause ur a NB urself, one of the highest stamina regen is probably on ur char right now, hell ur probably one of the strongest NB's just by pure stats. The only way people can dodge ur burst is roll dodging, and they have to break fear, ofc u kill them.

When do people realize that whoever has the highest resource management is going to win, its always nightblade thus nightblade wins, in short basicly. If u cant burst NB's ur not going to win, sadly cause of dark cloak, rally, vigor in combination with the endless dodge roll this is impossible.

People have to realize that any other class than NB is FORCED to break free and dodge roll and cause we have naturally less tsamina regen we're boudn to lose, unless ur a sorc that can shield like fkin crazy, but hey thats another strong, or as some say op class. But people dont get how broken NB is cause ur always going to lose, the only way a NB loses if his opponent is a better player. Else ur doomed > u will be forced to go on the defense and from that point onward its unevitable ur going to lose. Ur already dead.

I facepalm to whoever says NB shouldnt deserve a nerf, or tries to defend this class, as if it takes seriously ANY skill atm to play that class, its beyond broken. The only class that can give a fight to a NB is the sorc.

I don't think any class should be nerfed.

I think NB fear should be fixed, then they'll be strong but not OP. Right now fear is pretty broken.

I think DKs are fine and Sorcs are fine. Templars could probably use some buffs on the offensive front. Not necessarily from a DPS perspective but from a utility perspective.

Rust_in_Peace

If a NB is actually spamming roll they aren't wearing more than 1 or 2 nirnhoned. Way of Air and Skirmisher sets aren't crafted and don't allow for Nirn armor. The Bloodspawn pieces don't have nirn on them either. Even the dirtball dwemer pieces don't have it. Those are the real regen sets you need to be running to be a "roll spammer".

There are more bursty setups like Hundings and Morag Tong where it's possible to stack Nirn but regen will take a big hit.

Lastly there is pure burst setups that use food instead of drink and probably run snipe. These are definitely not spamming roll and even with full Nirn will fold like wet paper.

Sometimes when I read these forums it's like people combine all three of these and say "this is why NB is OP, cause they do it all at once".