Ways to Buff NB and Templar without nerfing sorc's and DK"S

Undefwun

golfer.dub17_ESO wrote: »

Buff Nightblades?

Yeah...how about you fix fear spam first.

Sure, as long they fix talon spam at the same time....

shane.roberts25b14_ESO

Draxys wrote: »

coolermh wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

NB ist most likely the strongest class if played right currently. I wish my sorc was one (not kidding).

I disagree as would most according to the poll "what class is the strongest in pvp"

Citing a poll on a public forum is an idiotic way to decide class balance.

Why? Seems like thats how zeni decides on who to buff/nerf... by what is whined about most on this public forum...

TheBull

coolermh wrote: »

I think NB's need some sort of sheild or heal? Like what if shadow cloak provided a 10 second shield based off max health or something?

I dont know about Templars? Thoughts?


I mean its pretty clear by the poll "Strongest class in PVP" that people seem to agree that DK's and Sorc are on a different playing field than Temps and NB's

No theyshould get a 20 second shield that is based off stam and prevents crits, knock backs, and sneak attack stuns if it's not broken.

ChampionSheWolf

coolermh wrote: »

golfer.dub17_ESO wrote: »

Buff Nightblades?

Yeah...how about you fix fear spam first.

I would happily trade the skill fear for a stamina version of bolt escape.

You're joking right? It's hilarious how many people believe Nightblades are actually broken.

Derra

coolermh wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

NB ist most likely the strongest class if played right currently. I wish my sorc was one (not kidding).

I disagree as would most according to the poll "what class is the strongest in pvp"

Well if you´re going by that poll DK would be the strongest class. I can assure you i would stop playing this game if my main toon was a DK currently - they are horrible - worse than sorc negate monkeys in 1.5.

Most ppl playing this game are absolutely clueless of what a class can perform and where their strengh and weaknesses are.

Derra

coolermh wrote: »

Well 711 players voted on that... I'm guess the knowledge of 711 players is more viable then one persons opinion. DK's and sorc's are currently seen as stronger then temps and NB's. So stop calling people terriabad because they try to create more balance in this game. All I was trying to say was that NB's need a better defensive skill and Templars needed to be adjusted as well.


Are you saying 90% of the games populations opinion doesn't matter because they dont play as "Hardcore as you" and where are you getting 90%...sounds like you made that number up randomly.

The funny thing is. ALL players i know ingame and forum account of that give me a run for my money when fighting them voted NB or Sorc in that thread. In fact the majority voted NB.

This is exactly what @ezareth is saying. Ppl don´t have a clue about pvp.

Soulac

Nb is love. Nb is life.

Mojomonkeyman

For anyone interested there`s some nice articles and studies out there on why PvP (similar to sports) can only be properly balanced for the top 1% of players. That is if you want to make a PvP game that is skill based.

In short, the 99% not on the top of the food chain lose mainly because of flawed execution and lack of understanding of mechanics not to balance issues with the game. You can never know whether they are just not good enough to perform x countermove or if that countermove is just not effective enough. You need a top player whos execution is optimal to evaluate whether that countermove is effective enough.

The 99% can always simply learn & improve their play to get better results. The top 1% will have almost ideal execution already, thats where balance comes into play.

Tankqull

the only "needed" buff for NBs is to make cloak un-uncovered by detection pots for its duration, beside that they do not need any buffs.

templars need alot of bug fixes especially in terms of unneccesary GCDs/animation hardlocks on skills than there should be some time to gather information about the effect of those changes.

deathpandax_ESO wrote: »

golfer.dub17_ESO wrote: »

Buff Nightblades?

Yeah...how about you fix fear spam first.

There's a 5 second immunity to hard CC.

???

would be great if that would actually work properly, 50% of the times i´m chain feared untill my stamina is depleted.
i do have the feeling it is corrolated to the issue of beeing unable to break fear immideatly wich can result in a server <-> client desync regarding cc.

Derra

Tankqull wrote: »

the only "needed" buff for NBs is to make cloak un-uncovered by detection pots for its duration, beside that they do not need any buffs.

And with this change i would stop playing pvp the moment it hits live. Detection potions are currently the only option (no radiant togglelight is NOT) to even take up the fight against a nightblade as a ranged caster.

LegacyDM

Panda244 wrote: »

For all those saying Dark Cloak doesn't work.

Sure, it's a tad bit buggy, but when I played my Nightblade after 1.6.

I ran into Glademist, it was under siege by Reds, Blues were defending, I Ambushed through the Postern door, ran upstairs, killed three people, ran into the corner of the third floor behind the tomb thing, waited for combat to end, came out, killed an additional two people, someone used a detect potion, so I jumped off the third floor onto the outter wall, recloaked, ran into the Northwestern tower, killed an EP on siege, jumped off the tower, ran up to the mine, killed an EP on siege, ran back down the hill, killed an EP on siege, ran back inside Glademist, killed at least a dozen more people until I finally got cornered between a detect potion and a hard place.

The entire time I was doing this I was spamming Dark Cloak and Double Take because Altmer Nightblades are OP and can cloak indefinitely when built right.

Cloak bugged out once or twice the entire 45 minutes I was doing this, I would roll dodge, and recloak, and it would work fine, so yea. Cloak is bugged.

For people that can't spam it.


#AltmerMasterRace @Ezareth


Fear needs to be nerfed though, it's so broke it ain't funny, NBs are the single strongest classes in the game in my opinion, then Sorcerers, then Dragonknights, then Templars.

This of course is my opinion, any good player, can make a class, the best class. As evidence by Templar Nation. Because Templar Nation. Is Templar. *******. Nation.

In all that cloaking you never got hit with the stuck in detected mode bug or schwaked with piercing mark? I find your story hard to believe...I do know that every chance you get, you downplay nightblade issues and do a Jedi mind trick waving the hand saying nothing to see here folks move along. NB clearly has issues that need to be fixed. Useless skills; grim focus, and agony, to name a few. As a magicka NB we don't even get a morph for teleport strike cause lotus fan sucks. You know there is a problem when people use the non-morphed version of a skill. Cloak is more than buggy, it needs to be spammed constantly and fails more so then any other class equivalent skill. NB cloak and stealth can be easily countered by Mage light, flare, detect invis, curse, magicka detonation, crushing shock, and stuck in detected mode bug. NB burst damsge is easily mitigated by all classes. Playing a sneaky sneaky stabby stabby NB is a joke. You burst someone, they hold down shield and instantly heal while you watch your hard work combos be mitigated by a button click. Your only saving grace is to cast fear, which gives your opponent a 5 sec immunity timer anyways so now you have to time fesr every 5 secs and hope they run out of stamina, while they are counter attacking you. Otherwise you try to cloak away to try and live another day for cloak to fail or be stuck in detected mode. The teleport morph from summon shade is wonky. The range is terrible, if there are any significant elevation differences your teleport doesn't work. If there are any objects in between you and the shade you can't teleport. Shades in general is lackluster. I watch shield stackers get tickled by them. Everyone in cyrodil is a tank so burst/assassin NB suck. A burst/assassin NB cant 1vs1 for *** and is only good for ganking people,on horseback, picking people off in a zerg who have their health down to 5%, or other burst NB. What a joke. Whatever man. Guess it works for you with no issues. You just port into a siege and kill a dozen people with no issues. Yeah right. I'm calling your bluff. Either your over exaggerating with a Jedi mind trick or the people you faced were noob tards. NB lack a good skill shield and a solid heal. I will admit that a tank NB is on par with the other classes. However, a sneaky snesk stabby stabby assassin burst NB is a joke.

pppontus

I can cloak for 48 hours straight, np. Only one counter = detect pot.

NBs are top of the food chain together with Sorcs atm. DKs and Templars are definitely much worse off.

Source: have PvP:ed on every class a whole bunch since 1.6.

Templars and DKs issues are mainly that they don't have any way to disengage, and yes, they are more tanky but at the same time .. no one is really particularly tanky anymore. I still take 10-12K lethal arrows to the face in 7 heavy. It's just impossible to survive if you get targeted by just a few half decent players nowadays, tanking has so many lol-wtf-dead counters like fear, jesus beam, petrify, and so on. Not to mention the ultra high damage we take now with crits and all. It only takes being feared and in that split second you get lethal arrow'd, soul harvested and jesus beamed and you die in 0,2s.

TL;DR- outside of group play I would never choose to play my DK or Templar but with the NB or Sorc I can still do good thanks to the mobility and defense of those classes.

Kas

NB:
Tell them to wear 5 heavy + 1h/s if they have problems and new players want to have some success at least. Really good players already play NB's quite successfully, I think. It's more than a casual gamer can easily be frustrated playing as NB right now.

Templar:
Fix everything broken (eclipse, charge, etc). Have a look at jabs and maybe remove the KB altogether or make it further (Wrecking Blow ish). Right now the "CC component" is a "free enemy CC immunity component" more than anything else. No need to bring back the stunlock from old days, of course.

Maybe have a look at radiant aura. Buffs that give you something you can have on pots already are comman across all classes. Buffs you get from SECONDARY potion effects already are pretty lame.

I'd be fine like that: stamina templars would be decent fighters, magicka ones would be awesome support that would still win against careless / inexperienced players. If you want magicka templars to be on par with other classes for solo play, that's an entirely different thing, though.

Fix all damage shields to no longer give knockback immunity and immunity against certain stuns. Only make BoL at normal cost (non-spammed) leave the absorb thing behind. Barely punishes good players in duel-like situations but stomps the *** of kiting entire zergs.

coolermh

k2blader wrote: »

coolermh wrote: »

k2blader wrote: »

coolermh wrote: »

golfer.dub17_ESO wrote: »

Buff Nightblades?

Yeah...how about you fix fear spam first.

I would happily trade the skill fear for a stamina version of bolt escape.

Right here is where you clearly discredit yourself.

As mentioned before you can easily stop fear by using immovable or an immovable potion. It is a good skill no doubt but I would rather be able to run away with no chance of dying.

If you think an NB bolt escape is going to let you run away with no chance of dying, you're wrong.

If you want bolt escape why not level a sorc?

I am

Derra

coolermh wrote: »

k2blader wrote: »

coolermh wrote: »

k2blader wrote: »

coolermh wrote: »

golfer.dub17_ESO wrote: »

Buff Nightblades?

Yeah...how about you fix fear spam first.

I would happily trade the skill fear for a stamina version of bolt escape.

Right here is where you clearly discredit yourself.

As mentioned before you can easily stop fear by using immovable or an immovable potion. It is a good skill no doubt but I would rather be able to run away with no chance of dying.

If you think an NB bolt escape is going to let you run away with no chance of dying, you're wrong.

If you want bolt escape why not level a sorc?

I am

I´m waiting for the buff sorc to NB level topic then

"Potatoes gonna potate" - someone on this forum.

RinaldoGandolphi

DoctorSwampy wrote: »

Orchish wrote: »

I cannot speak for the Templar, but Nightblade do not need buffing. What it needs is cloak to be fixed so that it works 100% of the time. When i use cloak i should not be pulled out by Whip or crushing shock etc.

Ding ding ding, weeeeeee have a winner!
NBs cloak should do as it is meant without having to drink and invis pot or what have you. I haven't played NBs in months and can tell it's still broken.
No buffs, just fixes.

I think Cloak is fine. The only things that needs fixed on Cloak is Detect pots should not see through it. Only Radiant Magelight should be able to see Cloak users, detect pots shouldn't. Also, the NB own dots shouldn't break his Cloak neither. Being damaged by say an AOE, or Lighting Form, etc should if they are close enough to you obviously.

If your targeted with a spell and its fired before you cloak, it should probably hit, unless you move, but the projectile shouldn't follow you if your cloaked. If your invisible but still standing in the same exact spot, of course the projectile should still hit you, your invisible, not ethereal.

RinaldoGandolphi

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

Good questions! It is clear that Templars and NBs still need some love; DKs and Sorcs seem to be fine in PvP (note I am only talking about PvP, fellow Sorcs!).

For Templars, the first step in the solution is clear, as several posters have already noted: FIX THE BUGS.

Toppling Charge and Eclipse need to be fixed ASAP.

The knockback on Jabs needs to be replaced with a snare or immobilize.

If Eclipse were fixed, I'd have a chance against Sorcs, and if Jabs were fixed, I'd be much more useful to my group in general.

Those are the easy ones, and should have been done a long time ago.

I will agree that Eclipse does need fixed. It shouldn't offer CC Immunity for being broken, because its not really a CC. Instead perhaps put a cost penalty on it like Bolt Escape for being spammed because face it, if you could spam it, you could lock single target casters down indefinably and that would be OP. Also, make Eclipse where you can only get out of it by casting Purge or the Templar Purge Spell. its a debuff so it should be purgable, not breakable. Immovable and Immovable Pots should not stop someone from casting Eclipse on a target either.

if Eclipse worked right, you would hear far less QQ about Sorc's, because most Sorcs would probably run the minute someone popped it on them. Make it a purgeable status effect, that ignores immovable, and can only be removed with purge, with a cost increase if its spammed, and Templars have a viable counter to ranged casters.

Xsorus

pppontus wrote: »

I can cloak for 48 hours straight, np. Only one counter = detect pot.

NBs are top of the food chain together with Sorcs atm. DKs and Templars are definitely much worse off.

Source: have PvP:ed on every class a whole bunch since 1.6.

Templars and DKs issues are mainly that they don't have any way to disengage, and yes, they are more tanky but at the same time .. no one is really particularly tanky anymore. I still take 10-12K lethal arrows to the face in 7 heavy. It's just impossible to survive if you get targeted by just a few half decent players nowadays, tanking has so many lol-wtf-dead counters like fear, jesus beam, petrify, and so on. Not to mention the ultra high damage we take now with crits and all. It only takes being feared and in that split second you get lethal arrow'd, soul harvested and jesus beamed and you die in 0,2s.

TL;DR- outside of group play I would never choose to play my DK or Templar but with the NB or Sorc I can still do good thanks to the mobility and defense of those classes.

this

Emma_Overload

I just had a great idea for buffing Nightblades:

Give them the game's only unblockable hard CC!

Oh... wait.

deepseamk20b14_ESO

golfer.dub17_ESO wrote: »

Buff Nightblades?

Yeah...how about you fix fear spam first.

You do realize how long break free lasts right? An NB that spams fear is bad and will die. A person who dies to an NB who "spams fear" which really isn't even a thing considering how long you have to recover from it is just bad.

As far as what @Ezareth said, if there are that many bad NB's perhaps it's the class not them? I mean, I find it a bit odd. I don't exactly disagree with you either, I'm just saying.

Now that all being said the only 2 skills I would like buffed are relentless focus and impale/killers blade. I think the stamina regen should 15% not just 10%. I would like if the minor beserk was 10% at lvl VI but then again it would need to be increased across the board so everyone could benefit. I also would like to see either less attacks to proc assassins will, or all attacks count towards the 7 hits, or if assassins will is used and does damage relentless focus is refreshed. Many people were pretty mad about the skill change and though I personally like it more than haste it needs some love.

Killers blade/impale needs a buff as well. At the moment, at least in PvP it's hitting barely harder than surprise attack which makes it pointless to even have on my bar. It's an execute. Nuff said.

Everything else is fine. Some class bugs need to be fixed, but that's not buffing.

My current setup in PvP is pretty tight. I see some magicka NB's out there doing fine as well. I say let sorcs and DK's do the usual complaining like they have since launch and us NB's just keep kicking butt.

Draehl

Stamina NBs don't need it, but magicka/sustain builds certainly do. DoTs/Funnel Health are rather weak right now.

In any case- please see my reddit post http://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/32oc80/discussionsuggestions_is_sustained_damage_too/

BrassRazoo

Just what we need.
Let's make the invisible people stronger.

deepseamk20b14_ESO

Draehl wrote: »

Stamina NBs don't need it, but magicka/sustain builds certainly do. DoTs/Funnel Health are rather weak right now.

In any case- please see my reddit post http://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/32oc80/discussionsuggestions_is_sustained_damage_too/

I think the damage is fine. Especially considering with cost reduction I got funnel health to 398 magicka per cast. You cannot seriously expect something that costs this little to hit like wrecking blow do you?

BrassRazoo wrote: »

Just what we need.
Let's make the invisible people stronger.

Cloak is buggy as heck. This is CERTAINLY not a NB's bread and butter skills as most think. It does benefit magicka builds a lot more than stamina but it can be countered using AoE like caltrops, impulse spam, sap, list goes on and detect potions. I have it on my second bar but rarely use it and only if I really need to escape a zerg. Once I get vigor it will be off my bar completely.

ToRelax

Draehl wrote: »

Stamina NBs don't need it, but magicka/sustain builds certainly do. DoTs/Funnel Health are rather weak right now.

In any case- please see my reddit post http://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/32oc80/discussionsuggestions_is_sustained_damage_too/

You do realize Sap tank is still the best tank?
Your damage can be pretty high on a magicka NB and with sustain NB should have the least issue of all classes.
One could balance the defensive mechanisms against magicka and stamina though (what all have, nirnhoned, harness, not some NB skill).

Draehl

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

I think the damage is fine. Especially considering with cost reduction I got funnel health to 398 magicka per cast. You cannot seriously expect something that costs this little to hit like wrecking blow do you?

It's also all of the hp shields and ease of healing to full. It's an easily ignored spell that when compared to all other skills in the 1.6/2.0 conversion took ~15% hit in damage. Yes, they dropped the magicka cost but I'd argue that was never a problem. And no, I don't expect it to hit so hard as wrecking blow.

In any case Funnel Health is the most minor problem I pointed out. The issue is that the entire playstyle of sustained dps just isn't working right now. Burst is far more viable with no drawbacks, healing (assuming you dont die to burst) back to 100% is easy enough and sustained damage when attempted doesn't even present enough of a threat to even be a counter to tanky targets. It's far more of a metagame issue. I'd argue changes to the Cyrodiil Battle Spirit buff (Increase the max hp bonus while simultaneous increasing the healing done penalty and having shields be included in this penalty) could probably be 90% of the solution. Everyone classes' DoTs could also use a buff for sheer viability of playstyle. Load up on them while giving up defense/burst and be an impending doom sustained damage style build. That's currently not viable.

The way of things really should be Burst > Sustain > Tanks > Burst - currently we effectively have a dichotomy of Burst = Tanks, greater numbers wins.

ToRelax

Draehl wrote: »

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

I think the damage is fine. Especially considering with cost reduction I got funnel health to 398 magicka per cast. You cannot seriously expect something that costs this little to hit like wrecking blow do you?

It's also all of the hp shields and ease of healing to full. It's an easily ignored spell that when compared to all other skills in the 1.6/2.0 conversion took ~15% hit in damage. Yes, they dropped the magicka cost but I'd argue that was never a problem. And no, I don't expect it to hit so hard as wrecking blow.

In any case Funnel Health is the most minor problem I pointed out. The issue is that the entire playstyle of sustained dps just isn't working right now. Burst is far more viable with no drawbacks, healing (assuming you dont die to burst) back to 100% is easy enough and sustained damage when attempted doesn't even present enough of a threat to even be a counter to tanky targets. It's far more of a metagame issue. I'd argue changes to the Cyrodiil Battle Spirit buff (Increase the max hp bonus while simultaneous increasing the healing done penalty and having shields be included in this penalty) could probably be 90% of the solution. Everyone classes' DoTs could also use a buff for sheer viability of playstyle. Load up on them while giving up defense/burst and be an impending doom sustained damage style build. That's currently not viable.

The way of things really should be Burst > Sustain > Tanks > Burst - currently we effectively have a dichotomy of Burst = Tanks, greater numbers wins.

Ah, true. That is mainly one of the things infinite resource builds are causing, the 40% hp nerf is contributing as well.

Chikenuget

Panda244 wrote: »

Fear needs to be nerfed though, it's so broke it ain't funny, NBs are the single strongest classes in the game in my opinion, then Sorcerers, then Dragonknights, then Templars.

This of course is my opinion, any good player, can make a class, the best class. As evidence by Templar Nation. Because Templar Nation. Is Templar. *******. Nation.

What is broken about fear? Outside of its buggyness it's another CC that can be broken and granted immunity from...

cazlonb16_ESO

Kas wrote: »

If you want magicka templars to be on par with other classes for solo play, that's an entirely different thing, though.

Why ? Templar burst healing was heavily nerfed precisely so they aren't the be all and end all for support.

amonengelb16_ESO

lol

Germtrocity

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

For anyone interested there`s some nice articles and studies out there on why PvP (similar to sports) can only be properly balanced for the top 1% of players. That is if you want to make a PvP game that is skill based.

In short, the 99% not on the top of the food chain lose mainly because of flawed execution and lack of understanding of mechanics not to balance issues with the game. You can never know whether they are just not good enough to perform x countermove or if that countermove is just not effective enough. You need a top player whos execution is optimal to evaluate whether that countermove is effective enough.

The 99% can always simply learn & improve their play to get better results. The top 1% will have almost ideal execution already, thats where balance comes into play.

Finally someone who gets it. People will never be able to accept their ineptness at the game though, and will always cry that it is a balancing issue.

I see this issue each day as I play, wiping groups of 20+ with @DisgracefulMind, constantly being called "hackers" and "cheaters" by the players that we have just wiped.

Some people are unable to see their own flaws, and this is one of the biggest problems.