Ball of Lightning - OP defensively?

Vynn

I want to start out by noting that as a DK, I agree completely with the nerf to reflective scale and its morphs in which there is a limit of 4 projectiles that can be reflected. It was absolutely necessary as the ability previous made DKs immune to single target ranged damage entirely as long as the ability was kept up, no matter how many attackers there were. But now there is a similar problem with the ability Ball of LIghtning. While it does not reflect abilities, so is a slightly different animal, the capabilities of BoL are overpowered in much the same way as reflective scale was in a defensive sense. BoL works off of a duration , which as long as you or or allies are near the ball of lightning as it persists, the ranged attacks are absorbed, no matter how many people are attacking.

I have discussed this ability several times with my guildies and we think a good balancing factor for this ability would be to limit the number of projectiles a BoL can absorbed before it disappears(4 to balance with the reflect for instance).

Just an idea, feel free to shoot it down/discuss, what have you. I'm curious what more people think about this change.

Peace......except in Cyrodiil of course ;D

Vis

No.

-Only absorbs
-Only absorbs magicka projectiles
-Only absorbs some magicka projectiles
-Only sometimes absorbs some magicka projectiles
-Only sometimes absorbs some magicka projectiles if you stand still
-Only sometimes absorbs some magicka projectiles if you stand still and have regen to use it

Any reason you felt compelled to open another nerf thread among the many others? Do you feel like we've given you sufficient attention now?

Ancile

Learn to play OP.

Ancile

Vis wrote: »

Do you feel like we've given you sufficient attention now?

I think this is what he ultimately wanted.

Vis

Read in the voice of Bud Light's "Real Men of Genius":

Here's to you Mr. I Reflect All Projectiles And Want Moar Nerfs For Others guy

Your tireless efforts to nerf others because of your lack of skill inspires us all. With your flappy spam and lol cc's, all other classes look up to you as the epitome of irony.

SleepyTroll

Ok, yes let's make it just like reflective scales then so the progectiles get reflected back also.
Also the term OP means over powerd, for some reason I think a lot of people lately have been calling everything OP when really it should just be called strong. Now if BOL reflected back at you it would be OP, as of right now though it's only strong.oh and If they nerf BOL like you want let's add 50% extra cost on reflective scales on the next cast within 4 seconss, that would be real fun.

Vynn

SleepyTroll wrote: »

Ok, yes let's make it just like reflective scales then so the progectiles get reflected back also.
Also the term OP means over powerd, for some reason I think a lot of people lately have been calling everything OP when really it should just be called strong. Now if BOL reflected back at you it would be OP, as of right now though it's only strong.oh and If they nerf BOL like you want let's add 50% extra cost on reflective scales on the next cast within 4 seconss, that would be real fun.

Interesting idea. But reflecting the projectiles is the only other thing that reflective scales does(other than increasing the dmg with fire scale and buff from reflective etc). Where as BoL has the mobility and stun factors. If you want a defensive balance another option other than reducing the absorbing factor of BoL, would be to have reflective scale absorb all aoe around them and reflect only 4 attacks, that would be balance too. I don't want this, because I think it would be overpowered for DKs to have that. But it is apparent people don't want balance, have at it with BoL, enjoy.

Emma_Overload

Vynn wrote: »

I want to start out by noting that as a DK, I agree completely with the nerf to reflective scale and its morphs in which there is a limit of 4 projectiles that can be reflected. It was absolutely necessary as the ability previous made DKs immune to single target ranged damage entirely as long as the ability was kept up, no matter how many attackers there were. But now there is a similar problem with the ability Ball of LIghtning. While it does not reflect abilities, so is a slightly different animal, the capabilities of BoL are overpowered in much the same way as reflective scale was in a defensive sense. BoL works off of a duration , which as long as you or or allies are near the ball of lightning as it persists, the ranged attacks are absorbed, no matter how many people are attacking.

I have discussed this ability several times with my guildies and we think a good balancing factor for this ability would be to limit the number of projectiles a BoL can absorbed before it disappears(4 to balance with the reflect for instance).

Just an idea, feel free to shoot it down/discuss, what have you. I'm curious what more people think about this change.

Peace......except in Cyrodiil of course ;D

BoL is so unreliable, I don't see how anyone could call it OP. Why add an intentional nerf to an ability that has been bugged so badly since launch? Every month or so, I repec my skills so I can test BoL to see if it actually works yet. The answer is always NO, it has not been fixed. Many spell projectiles CAN'T be absorbed, e.g. special Fear attacks from Scaled Court Illusionists in Craglorn, and most other spells are only absorbed on a random basis. You absolutely, positively can NOT rely on BoL to perform the actions described in the tooltip...ever!

If BoL WAS reliable, then yeah, it would be a powerful spell. But even then, it's a stretch to call it "overpowered" considering how much Bolt Escape and it's morphs have ALREADY been nerfed over the last year. Sorcerers have already had enough nerfs, please stop!

.

Vynn

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Vynn wrote: »

I want to start out by noting that as a DK, I agree completely with the nerf to reflective scale and its morphs in which there is a limit of 4 projectiles that can be reflected. It was absolutely necessary as the ability previous made DKs immune to single target ranged damage entirely as long as the ability was kept up, no matter how many attackers there were. But now there is a similar problem with the ability Ball of LIghtning. While it does not reflect abilities, so is a slightly different animal, the capabilities of BoL are overpowered in much the same way as reflective scale was in a defensive sense. BoL works off of a duration , which as long as you or or allies are near the ball of lightning as it persists, the ranged attacks are absorbed, no matter how many people are attacking.

I have discussed this ability several times with my guildies and we think a good balancing factor for this ability would be to limit the number of projectiles a BoL can absorbed before it disappears(4 to balance with the reflect for instance).

Just an idea, feel free to shoot it down/discuss, what have you. I'm curious what more people think about this change.

Peace......except in Cyrodiil of course ;D

BoL is so unreliable, I don't see how anyone could call it OP. Why add an intentional nerf to an ability that has been bugged so badly since launch? Every month or so, I repec my skills so I can test BoL to see if it actually works yet. The answer is always NO, it has not been fixed. Many spell projectiles CAN'T be absorbed, e.g. special Fear spells from Scaled Court Illusionists in Craglorn, and most other spells are only absorbed on a random basis. You absolutely, positively can NOT rely on BoL to perform the actions described in the tooltip...ever!

If BoL WAS reliable, then yeah, it would be a powerful spell. But even then, it's a stretch to call it "overpowered" considering how much Bolt Escape and it's morphs have ALREADY been nerfed over the last year. Sorcerers have already had enough nerfs, please stop!

.

Fair enough, if it doesn't work consistently then it should not be nerfed, it should be fixed. I've consistently had it work against me when fighting sorcs, which of course is fine, and is the only perspective of the situation I have, so thank you for sharing the sorc perspective.

Cody

it only absorbs ranged projectiles. Anyone using critical charge or ambush(which is half of the player base) can easily catch a sorc using any of the BE morphs. Heck iv caught sorcs using both.

sorcs go down fast; if they make use of their escape ability, then good for them.

RivenEsq

As a sorc, I fall into the dichotomy of always feeling that my BoL does not absorb projectiles that it should in critical moments while the sorc that I am fighting against eats everything I throw at him while constantly standing his aura making me spam Mage's Fury to hope for some damage.

Honestly, I don't depend on BoL that much so nerfing its cost or its utility isn't something that will harm my playstyle as much as it will shatter others. I came across an underleveled (vet3) sorc the other day in Cheydinhal and while we were fighting (I am vet14) and this went on for about 5 minutes because he would spam Dark Ritual to get his magicka back while sitting in a BoL projectile absorbing aura. I ate just about every ability he had to the face and he couldn't kill me, but because of my build, I couldn't do anything to him. Since this is a Sorc v. Sorc anecdotal story, I'm not arguing in favor of a nerf, but purely providing a story that there really are people where their entire build revolves around using this ability to not die. Those people will suffer if the cost or regeneration while using it is tweaked at all (You do get essentially no stamina regen while stealthed or sprinting, so that is a comparable consideration).

For the lols, that v3 Sorc couldn't kill me until a v14 Templar with a 2H stamina build walked up and beat me to death. Spoiler alert: If you didn't know, 2H Stamina builds take a dump on sorcerers who have essentially no physical mitigation other than Hardened Ward (which was nerfed with the Cyrodiil shield reduction change). The more you know. When I came back and full-combo'd this guy with a meteor and killed him, he called me a "no skill tryhard sorc" just because I rolled a Sorc at launch and recently came back to the game and it is my only character. Let that sink in. The guy who was doing nothing, but using BoL non-stop, called ME the tryhard with no skill. Curious.

Skafsgaard

I think it's a good observation, OP

Derra

Scales is still op in encounters involving 2 or less ranged projectile users.

BOL is surely not completely balanced in terms of magica projectiles but even mentioning the two in the same context is ridiculous...

Vynn

Derra wrote: »

Scales is still op in encounters involving 2 or less ranged projectile users.

BOL is surely not completely balanced in terms of magica projectiles but even mentioning the two in the same context is ridiculous...

Why is it ridiculous? Both abilities have offensive(stunning enemies is still offensive, while obviously not as powerful offensively as reflect is, it is also a great mobility ability) and defensive factors. Both abilities prevent projectiles from reaching their target. Certainly they are not the same, which is why I said they are a different animal. So why shouldn't a defensive comparison be put out there?

If you want to compare BoL to a different ability, I suppose we could choose Guard, as BoL certainly absorbs the abilities of your allies that are near it as well. Perhaps that would have been better for comparison. The interesting difference there, is that you still take the damage with guard, they are not absorbed.

Derra

Vynn wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Scales is still op in encounters involving 2 or less ranged projectile users.

BOL is surely not completely balanced in terms of magica projectiles but even mentioning the two in the same context is ridiculous...

Why is it ridiculous? Both abilities have offensive(stunning enemies is still offensive, while obviously not as powerful offensively as reflect is, it is also a great mobility ability) and defensive factors. Both abilities prevent projectiles from reaching their target. Certainly they are not the same, which is why I said they are a different animal. So why shouldn't a defensive comparison be put out there?

Because you can not only compare one side of a coin...

BOL is countered by all heavy staff attacks, bow and positioning. Reflect is only counterable with reflect yourself. Reflect is defense combined with offense - BOL is purely defensive.

I dislike BOL myself but as long as hardcounter abilities to certain playstyles like scales are in the game there is no point in discussing sth like BOL imho.

Vynn

Derra wrote: »

Vynn wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Scales is still op in encounters involving 2 or less ranged projectile users.

BOL is surely not completely balanced in terms of magica projectiles but even mentioning the two in the same context is ridiculous...

Why is it ridiculous? Both abilities have offensive(stunning enemies is still offensive, while obviously not as powerful offensively as reflect is, it is also a great mobility ability) and defensive factors. Both abilities prevent projectiles from reaching their target. Certainly they are not the same, which is why I said they are a different animal. So why shouldn't a defensive comparison be put out there?

Because you can not only compare one side of a coin...

BOL is countered by all heavy staff attacks, bow and positioning. Reflect is only counterable with reflect yourself. Reflect is defense combined with offense - BOL is purely defensive.

I dislike BOL myself but as long as hardcounter abilities to certain playstyles like scales are in the game there is no point in discussing sth like BOL imho.

Good point. One possible solution may be to have the count on projectiles reduced on BoL kind of like reflect, but have it absorb more things, like stamina projectiles and heavy attacks like reflect does in order to find the balance. Thoughts?

Derra

Personally i think they should rework BOL to an aoe hot and scales to an 60% dmg absorb for projectiles (not limited then ofc) as both abilities would loose their Status as a hard counter but still be very vaible...

Just an idea ofc...

Vynn

Derra wrote: »

Personally i think they should rework BOL to an aoe hot and scales to an 60% dmg absorb for projectiles (not limited then ofc) as both abilities would loose their Status as a hard counter but still be very vaible...

Just an idea ofc...

That's an intriguing idea.

Cinnamon_Spider

Not only is ball of lightning unreliable at absorbing spell projectiles, it also sometimes absorbs heals meant for me. I've watched it absorb a breath of life and mutagen for me and I've seen it absorb the heal from the dwemer set for another bol sorc.

RinaldoGandolphi

After much cheaper consideration and thought on Ezareth's comments on this issue, I think the only problem is Streak blows chunks right now.

There is really no incentive to use Streak anymore because they nerfed the damage, took away the disorient, and made it give cc immunity.

Return streak to a disorient that dont give cc immunity unless you break free and make the disorient blockable like it was in 1.5 and up its damage, and I think this situation solves itself.

There are many sorcs who would like to use streak but its just too weak for them to consider so the only other option they have is BOL.

I actually started using Streak the other day, and its simply not viable, its impossible to use it offensive like it was intended as its CC immunity renders frags and other skills useless, I was forced to go back to BOL, what other choice do I have?

RinaldoGandolphi

Excuse the typo in typing from my phone

david.haypreub18_ESO

Vynn wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Scales is still op in encounters involving 2 or less ranged projectile users.

BOL is surely not completely balanced in terms of magica projectiles but even mentioning the two in the same context is ridiculous...

Why is it ridiculous? Both abilities have offensive(stunning enemies is still offensive, while obviously not as powerful offensively as reflect is, it is also a great mobility ability) and defensive factors. Both abilities prevent projectiles from reaching their target. Certainly they are not the same, which is why I said they are a different animal. So why shouldn't a defensive comparison be put out there?

If you want to compare BoL to a different ability, I suppose we could choose Guard, as BoL certainly absorbs the abilities of your allies that are near it as well. Perhaps that would have been better for comparison. The interesting difference there, is that you still take the damage with guard, they are not absorbed.

BoL only absorbs spell projectiles, whereas Scales actually not only reflects, but reflects all projectiles (not just spell ones). I know you know that, but it is worth saying, because that is what makes Scales really in another realm (even with the recent nerf).

If you want to also nerf Scales to only reflect spell projectiles, or even only physical projectiles, then I would consider what you propose. But the fact that Scales reflects all projectiles is what really makes it so good.

Lava_Croft

As long as the flapping DK cannot teleport itself around the battlefield while strategically placing balls of reflecting/absorbing scales, I think the comparison is broken.

cschwingeb14_ESO

I think that both skills need to be reworked into something else (non-reflective or absorbing). It's just ludicrous to have such a massive number of skills rendered useless by two abilities, in a game where you just cannot expect use something else because of the 10 skill limit.

I full time sorc and there are a ton of abilities I'd like to use, but can't make space for, because 1/2 of the population can full-time negate those ranged abilities. Until they change it I'll keep using bol of course.

Only 1h/s should keep the reflect, and the cost of that should be lowered.

cozmon3c_ESO

I believe Zos messed up with BoL and RS.

BoL is powerful because it keeps a magicka projectile ball up for '6 Seconds', this imo is way too long and needs to be shortened to like '3-4 seconds'. this will cause the sorc to decide to spam it and lose magicka due to the double magicka with in 4 seconds from bolt escape or leave a window open for attacks. i can keep bol up indefinitely with 6 second balls and completely negate most magicka damage incoming.

RS is powerful, even with the nerf, because it it reflects most ranged attacks in the game. the easy fix is that the dk should have to choose what they want to reflect, Magicka projectiles or Stamina projectiles through morphs of the base ability, both is just over powered even with the 4 hit limit, it is still spammed forever. its near impossible for a sorcerer to even kill a dk in a 1v1 unless they use defensive posture.

Defensive posture should be the ability in the game that reflects both magicka and stamina projectiles as it only reflects once and even then it wont be on par with RS if they have to choose between Magicka or Stamina Projectiles.

Edit:
Streak, is just not what it used to be, i personally used it for instant damage in 1.5, not for the soft cc it had. right now streak hits like a wet noodle from what it used to hit for and i wasnt even max damage spec in 1.5 like i am now. it hits less now with much more stacked in spell damage and max magicka then in a balanced build from 1.5 lol. They need to up the damage by 100% if i am ever going to use this ability again.

King Bozo

Once again the strongest class in the game starting a thread on one of the weakest opponents (weak if you have l2p issues). Answer is NO. Sorcs need to escape as they are pieces of paper compared to DK period. L2p problem solved.

Erlex

Assuming that they fix the ability to always work as intended, it is indeed OP. Should have a limit of around 4 projectiles. Even with only 4 (reliable) projectiles it would still be extremely powerful. To put it simply, if you gave it this fix/nerf, no one who uses it now would take it off their bar.

Skafsgaard

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

I believe Zos messed up with BoL and RS.

BoL is powerful because it keeps a magicka projectile ball up for '6 Seconds', this imo is way too long and needs to be shortened to like '3-4 seconds'. this will cause the sorc to decide to spam it and lose magicka due to the double magicka with in 4 seconds from bolt escape or leave a window open for attacks. i can keep bol up indefinitely with 6 second balls and completely negate most magicka damage incoming.

RS is powerful, even with the nerf, because it it reflects most ranged attacks in the game. the easy fix is that the dk should have to choose what they want to reflect, Magicka projectiles or Stamina projectiles through morphs of the base ability, both is just over powered even with the 4 hit limit, it is still spammed forever. its near impossible for a sorcerer to even kill a dk in a 1v1 unless they use defensive posture.

Defensive posture should be the ability in the game that reflects both magicka and stamina projectiles as it only reflects once and even then it wont be on par with RS if they have to choose between Magicka or Stamina Projectiles.

I think these are very good considerations!

Ezareth

Posting in Nerf Sorc thread #203,453

BoL is such an unreliable buggy mess right now it's infuriating. Do you have any idea how stupid it is to try to block an incoming crit-charge at the same time someone crushing shocks you through your BoL which completely drains your stamina?

Staff attacks now go through BoL which bug it and completely broke the ability.

Laerwen

Ezareth wrote: »

Posting in Nerf Sorc thread #203,453

BoL is such an unreliable buggy mess right now it's infuriating. Do you have any idea how stupid it is to try to block an incoming crit-charge at the same time someone crushing shocks you through your BoL which completely drains your stamina?

Staff attacks now go through BoL which bug it and completely broke the ability.

As a Sorc, I hope they do nerf it. It renders Sorc vs Sorc lol worthy. As a sorc who runs Streak, I find myself trying desperately to get "under" the ball, and I find it extremely satisfying when they depend on it too much and neglect their ward. They explode quite fantastically, and their god balls fade silently away leaving nothing but their rotting corpse.

Seriously though Streak is better in every other way possible:

*Stuns through it's entire path
*Does good damage
*Goes through dodge roll
*Reveals stealthed enemies

Ezareth

Laerwen wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Posting in Nerf Sorc thread #203,453

BoL is such an unreliable buggy mess right now it's infuriating. Do you have any idea how stupid it is to try to block an incoming crit-charge at the same time someone crushing shocks you through your BoL which completely drains your stamina?

Staff attacks now go through BoL which bug it and completely broke the ability.

As a Sorc, I hope they do nerf it. It renders Sorc vs Sorc lol worthy. As a sorc who runs Streak, I find myself trying desperately to get "under" the ball, and I find it extremely satisfying when they depend on it too much and neglect their ward. They explode quite fantastically, and their god balls fade silently away leaving nothing but their rotting corpse.

Seriously though Streak is better in every other way possible:

*Stuns through it's entire path
*Does good damage
*Goes through dodge roll
*Reveals stealthed enemies

It also gives cc immunity to everyone it stuns. BOL reveals stealth as well, it is just hard to do it since it only works around the caster. The damage of streak is nowhere near good right now.