I can't take it! Argonian is soooo bad compared to other races.

Nutronic

Cultural practices and Military prowess do not equal biological advantages, Magical or otherwise.

I agree it's very sad/annoying to be pinned in Cyrodiil between a river and rock and know that death is unavoidable but that will most likely change when then imperial city comes out.

Khajiit are stealthy because cats are stealthy. Wood Elves, see the green pact. Argonians don't have any anything that would offer them a biological or magical reason to be stealthy, unless you count birth signs.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Even after the Imperial City comes out when ever that will be swimming 50% faster will do nothing to save water could be a saving grace to Argonian.

A racial get of jail free card but even IF and that's a big if they remove the slaughter fish swimming will make you a sitting duck unless we can dive underwater out of range it will make no different not little different no change at all

Nutronic

Right now if I need to retreat in PVP I just hide and drink a potion. If I could do that AND move very quickly away in a fashion people can't follow I think that would be a win.

Not to mention everyone's (at least from what I heard) plan during beta was to start attacks on one side of a keep and Zerg the other with Argonians via water. Can't say it'd work, but can't really say it wouldn't have merit either.

Rettile

Nutronic wrote: »

Cultural practices and Military prowess do not equal biological advantages, Magical or otherwise.

I agree it's very sad/annoying to be pinned in Cyrodiil between a river and rock and know that death is unavoidable but that will most likely change when then imperial city comes out.

Khajiit are stealthy because cats are stealthy. Wood Elves, see the green pact. Argonians don't have any anything that would offer them a biological or magical reason to be stealthy, unless you count birth signs.

And Reptile are mimetical -.-' and in other tes they have thief and illusionist skill bonus, for a culture view, argonian are thief and assasin...

Nutronic wrote: »

1. Pots are technically free. Loot em, make, steal em, free.
2. Health regen while lore friendly only makes a a difference if you have a large pool to work with. The logic being that 10% of 10k (roughly 100hps) isn't that much compared to 10% of 25k (250hps). Even still from the bigger perspective that's only like a light attack's worth of damage recovered

Suggestion: Keep the pot passive, but make it like red diamond. Either pots have a chance to do a huge Magika/Health/Stamina heal/regen or each potion use grants 10-15% regen on all attributes. Mind you this gives it several bonuses over it's current state.

a. Can be use outside of combat
b. All potions (even invisibility, etc) work like elixirs of healing
c. The number is big enough that having enough points into anyone of those stats makes it noticeable, but small enough where it shouldn't be over powered.

WTF why we are here to argue with this... Potion are not technically free, you must have it in you inventory, and you must use that for your freak passive, and if you finish pot or you don't have it, you can use a passive! this is not a balaced race, depending on consumable item

Nutronic

Argonians are tribal. Illusions and Mysticism are not tools employed by common thieves....

That said, you're right and I was wrong. If we go back to Arena, Argonians are thieves who are adept at slight of hand. That in combination with Skyrim (which is the first time in like 17 years) when they finally get a sneak bonus, can you call them thieves.

Still, we have enough sneaky racial bonus, why add more when there is an opportunity to be unique?

Potions are in essence free. You can't play in PVE more than 30 minutes without getting one. They literally costs nothing to make. Unless you've confused time with money, they are free to find, make and use. Tying a racial to a consumable? That's about as stupid as tying a class or crafting(non-combat, wtf?) passive to one... oh wait. As if that wasn't enough we have enchantments, champion points and other ways to manipulate the benefits of using them. Obviously the game expects you to use them, a lot. It's lik- Never mind. Point is potions are so cheap it's like they are free.

Oh and before we forget, Alchemy is a racial bonus of Argonians. It just makes sense to add it in some form to their passives.

Rettile

Nutronic wrote: »

Argonians are tribal. Illusions and Mysticism are not tools employed by common thieves....

That said, you're right and I was wrong. If we go back to Arena, Argonians are thieves who are adept at slight of hand. That in combination with Skyrim (which is the first time in like 17 years) when they finally get a sneak bonus, can you call them thieves.

Still, we have enough sneaky racial bonus, why add more when there is an opportunity to be unique?

Potions are in essence free. You can't play in PVE more than 30 minutes without getting one. They literally costs nothing to make. Unless you've confused time with money, they are free to find, make and use. Tying a racial to a consumable? That's about as stupid as tying a class or crafting(non-combat, wtf?) passive to one... oh wait. As if that wasn't enough we have enchantments, champion points and other ways to manipulate the benefits of using them. Obviously the game expects you to use them, a lot. It's lik- Never mind. Point is potions are so cheap it's like they are free.

Oh and before we forget, Alchemy is a racial bonus of Argonians. It just makes sense to add it in some form to their passives.

There are tool for ESO THIEVES AND ASSASINS
30 min and you find one? lol i must run to a dung and kill 5 boss to bring 5 pot ad use them in 5 min of pvp -.-' you are so... and also i can't find only 1 passive linked to a crafting skill, yes you can do what do you want with enchantments, champion or other way, but always it's a bound to a consumable! and it's wrong! what do you want? you are a NB with alchemy? Stop bring water to your mill...

Jar_Ek

Well my suggestion is to dump the potion passive, in will never be effectively balanced across playstyles. Change the name to Amphibious warfare and provide a damage bonus against low health and vulnerable (cc) opponents of 5,10,15%. This level to offset the lack of a max stat bonus.
Then remove max health bonus and replace with health recovery at 10,20,30% to better replicate hist skin.
Finally change the name of quick to Mend to Healer of the Hist and add a healing output bonus equal to the healing received, 2,4,6%.

This would make Argonian characters have a credible hist skin style heal capability and provide unique racial passives that would be attractive, esp to assassins and healers... the two groups that are noted in the in-game representation of Argonians.

Fizzlewizzle

Jar_Ek wrote: »

Well my suggestion is to dump the potion passive, in will never be effectively balanced across playstyles. Change the name to Amphibious warfare and provide a damage bonus against low health and vulnerable (cc) opponents of 5,10,15%. This level to offset the lack of a max stat bonus.
Then remove max health bonus and replace with health recovery at 10,20,30% to better replicate hist skin.
Finally change the name of quick to Mend to Healer of the Hist and add a healing output bonus equal to the healing received, 2,4,6%.

This would make Argonian characters have a credible hist skin style heal capability and provide unique racial passives that would be attractive, esp to assassins and healers... the two groups that are noted in the in-game representation of Argonians.

This would be the winner in my book.
No matter the play style, you would get a small bonus.

Rettile

Rettile wrote: »

Fizzlewizzle wrote: »

i think 100% health regeneration bonus it's a lot more... but a 21% like bosmer, also quick to mend i think it must stay in the passieve tree but maybe like healing done and recived...

Jar_Ek wrote: »

Well my suggestion is to dump the potion passive, in will never be effectively balanced across playstyles. Change the name to Amphibious warfare and provide a damage bonus against low health and vulnerable (cc) opponents of 5,10,15%. This level to offset the lack of a max stat bonus.
Then remove max health bonus and replace with health recovery at 10,20,30% to better replicate hist skin.
Finally change the name of quick to Mend to Healer of the Hist and add a healing output bonus equal to the healing received, 2,4,6%.

This would make Argonian characters have a credible hist skin style heal capability and provide unique racial passives that would be attractive, esp to assassins and healers... the two groups that are noted in the in-game representation of Argonians.

Something like this?

Amphibian Physiology (3 ranks) – Increases swimming speed by 50% a bonus damage against low health and vulnerable opponents by (5/10/15)%.

Argonian Hardiness (3 ranks) – Increases maximum Health by (1/3/6)% and Increases Poison/Disease resistance by 1440, increase Physical Protection (2/3/6)%

Link to the Hist (3 ranks ) - Increase Healing Done and Recived (2/4/6)% and Healt Regen (10/20/30)%

Spangla

Khajit suck aswell.

The 6% crit is clearly crap compared to redguard or woodelf stam boost

Jar_Ek

@Rettile Something like that, but I suspect that healing done, received and health regeneration would be considered op - as would health, resistance and damage reduction.

Rettile

Jar_Ek wrote: »

@Rettile Something like that, but I suspect that healing done, received and health regeneration would be considered op - as would health, resistance and damage reduction.

I know but other race have better stat... maybe not the physical protection but it's seem not so OP

Varicite

We should be asking ZOS to rebalance ALL racials, not just look at Argonian or Khajit, etc.

They ALL need to be looked at in light of removed soft caps, because 4 races CLEARLY stand head and shoulders above the others now.

Nutronic

Medicinal use from the Alchemy skill line, but I think Jar_Ek has a good idea so might as well go with that. The racial low health might be slightly Op since each class and all the physical weapons already have finishers, but it's a good combat passive no other race has.

"Link to the Hist (3 ranks ) - Increase Healing Done and Recived (2/4/6)% and Healt Regen (10/20/30)%"

Maybe instead of flat health regen or increased health, maybe go with a proc like red diamond or adrenaline rush.

Rettile

Nutronic wrote: »

Medicinal use from the Alchemy skill line, but I think Jar_Ek has a good idea so might as well go with that. The racial low health might be slightly Op since each class and all the physical weapons already have finishers, but it's a good combat passive no other race has.

"Link to the Hist (3 ranks ) - Increase Healing Done and Recived (2/4/6)% and Healt Regen (10/20/30)%"

Maybe instead of flat health regen or increased health, maybe go with a proc like red diamond or adrenaline rush.

I don't think health regen it's so bad and also an increased health...

Victus

I made an Argonian Templar as well, wanting to play a guerrilla fighter (sneak with bow, plus "spears") but not sure if I want to go through and play it, even though now Stamina Templars are a thing. I already have an Argonian NB healer that's fun.

They just look so dang cool.

Nutronic

Couldn't resist making a suggestion so here's mine:

Amphibious: Increases movement speed by 50% whenever you enter water.
Bonuses are kept for (15/22/35)secs after leaving water.
Or
After being out of combat for 1 minute, increases damage of next attack by 5/10/15%.
(Either it has a cool down or reentering water simply refreshes it, not sure if it's too abusable. Basically the second one is the buff Empower {minor} but as a racial. I think this gives them an edge in all combat, but would probably be most noticeable when sneak attacking)

Argonian Resistance: Increases Maximum Health by 2/4/8% and Poison and Disease resistance by 8/15/23.
(the more I look at it the more I think ZOS has a good reason why the max health is so low compared to other races. Compared to Bosmer, the resistances are higher, but even the Bosmer only gain 1% more stamina over Argonains. If this were to get buffed the Bosmer one might need a buff as well?)

Quick to Mend: Increases healing done by 3/6/9%.
Also has a 10% chance on being hit to gain 20/40/60% health recovery for 10s. This can happen no more than once every 30s
Or
Also restores 100/200/300 health to player when damaged by an enemy.
(one of these would be really awesome but might push just a bit too close into OP territory unless similar buffs are added to other races. I think the increase healing done also works to replace the potion passive because it should be any form of healing initiated by the player. That makes it attractive for everyone no matter what their roll is.)

After counting out all the other unique passives other races get, most only get like 3-6 (albeit very strong) passives:
Imperial, Redguard, and Breton get 3 very good passives.
Nords, and Khajiit get 4 somewhat decent but readjustment needing passives.
Altmer, Orsimer, and Dunmer get 5, Orcs having a dubious couple, but the elves being very strong.
Bosmer and Argonian already get a whooping 6 unique passives (and that's if you don't divide the potion passive into 3 parts!) with the Bosmer seemingly ahead due to the 1.6 buff they got.

All in all it seems like there should be a racial overhaul if you want to "fix" problems like the Khajiit, Orc and Argonian racials (somewhat telling all these problems are with beast races, while humans and elves are actually in really good spots).

Molagent

The lot of you are going off track...


Shadow Scales are not a dominating majority of the Argonian population. If anything you could consider them Zealot Druids.. Think of a time you didn't hear one speak of the Hist, I'll pay you if you can. To say they wouldn't be warriors is almost complete ignorance. Slaves who became racists and practically all sacrificial warriors as a means to stave off Imperial conquest. Now because of a few "Hist Visions" they stand in the Ebonheart though not specifically to stop or aid the planemeld but claim independence or at least end corruption of all forms inside the Empire.

So, where exactly do you see all the shadows? If that's not enough (and we're not going forward in time because that's just stupid) then where would anything be in terms of lore if the Shadow Scales suddenly had a number expansion assuming each player is a member. While it'd be nice to have such an option, then you'd have to talk even more about the Companions, Vampire Covens, Lycan packs, etc. It's simpler, reasonable, and effective to say you're a slave and given the circumstances presented now need to fight by shield and sword to survive again.

Like I said before, if you really see a vision for change, at least make sure it's comprehensible.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Molagent wrote: »

The lot of you are going off track...


Shadow Scales are not a dominating majority of the Argonian population. If anything you could consider them Zealot Druids.. Think of a time you didn't hear one speak of the Hist, I'll pay you if you can. To say they wouldn't be warriors is almost complete ignorance. Slaves who became racists and practically all sacrificial warriors as a means to stave off Imperial conquest. Now because of a few "Hist Visions" they stand in the Ebonheart though not specifically to stop or aid the planemeld but claim independence or at least end corruption of all forms inside the Empire.

So, where exactly do you see all the shadows? If that's not enough (and we're not going forward in time because that's just stupid) then where would anything be in terms of lore if the Shadow Scales suddenly had a number expansion assuming each player is a member. While it'd be nice to have such an option, then you'd have to talk even more about the Companions, Vampire Covens, Lycan packs, etc. It's simpler, reasonable, and effective to say you're a slave and given the circumstances presented now need to fight by shield and sword to survive again.

Like I said before, if you really see a vision for change, at least make sure it's comprehensible.

Well the Hist was made Sithis and is the supreme God all Divines and Daedric Prince being born of has so there's that also

Plus do you know why they have Shadow Scales they are so devoted to serving Sithis and the Hist that 1 12th of the population is chosen to serve the will of Sithis which is feeding the Void with souls

Fact the Shadow Scale are not the Argonian army they say as much them selves the guard the marsh for threats from the outside and in mostly in small groups rare with a sizable force.

Really don't know why anyone would push to keep passives this under powered

Rettile

Nutronic wrote: »

Couldn't resist making a suggestion so here's mine:

Amphibious: Increases movement speed by 50% whenever you enter water.
Bonuses are kept for (15/22/35)secs after leaving water.
Or
After being out of combat for 1 minute, increases damage of next attack by 5/10/15%.
(Either it has a cool down or reentering water simply refreshes it, not sure if it's too abusable. Basically the second one is the buff Empower {minor} but as a racial. I think this gives them an edge in all combat, but would probably be most noticeable when sneak attacking)

Uhm after 1 minutes? not will be better a stealth passive in this way?

Nutronic wrote: »

Quick to Mend: Increases healing done by 3/6/9%.
Also has a 10% chance on being hit to gain 20/40/60% health recovery for 10s. This can happen no more than once every 30s
Or
Also restores 100/200/300 health to player when damaged by an enemy.
(one of these would be really awesome but might push just a bit too close into OP territory unless similar buffs are added to other races. I think the increase healing done also works to replace the potion passive because it should be any form of healing initiated by the player. That makes it attractive for everyone no matter what their roll is.)

on hit 10% to gain 60& health regen? but you sai before health regen was usless...
but i think the idea of health restores when damaged are good...

Rettile

@ZOS_BrianWheeler c'mon and say something!

Nutronic

Rettile wrote: »

on hit 10% to gain 60& health regen? but you sai before health regen was usless...
but i think the idea of health restores when damaged are good...

I still think Health regen is useless. If you want to use the recently buffed drinks and get OVER 50% regen, then it's noticeably good, maybe even overpowered. For case and point look at the Khajiit passive regen. I mean carnage isn't the only reason people want them buffed/changed...

Rettile wrote: »

Uhm after 1 minutes? not will be better a stealth passive in this way?

The whole point is to avoid forcing people to use stealth (or be a nightblade, or chug an invisibility potion), but still feel like they do more damage with hit and run tactics. An out of combat cool down is my suggestion; if you have a better one, by all means please show it

The best way to get developers attention is be positive and suggest things that aren't "single-player kills everyone but can't be killed" fantasies. Or insulting people so they remove posts Either way, I think just keeping the discussion going goes a long way.

Rettile

Nutronic wrote: »

The best way to get developers attention is be positive and suggest things that aren't "single-player kills everyone but can't be killed" fantasies. Or insulting people so they remove posts Either way, I think just keeping the discussion going goes a long way.

I never insulted anyone here, and i just say mi idea of what must be done...

Molagent

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Nutronic wrote: »

Health Regen is kinda terrible. It's really only useful in PVP and between encounters in PVE. Having a higher Health pool would be more desirable. Something like 3/6/12% in Amphibian works better IMO.

I Personally would cry if they added more stealth play to Argonians. Between Khajiit and Bosmer it'd be nice to have something different, not to mention you have to stack all these passives up against other races that currently have them. I still don't see a reason to make a nightblade Argonian over a Khajiit one even with the Warfare passive because it's essentially the same ones Khajiit get but without the bonus of Carnage...

That facts is that Argonians are a Stealth race but just like Nord, Red Guard, Orcs and Imperials are Warrior Races. Should they lose that part of their lore cause their are other warrior options

When you can prove that evidence, I'm sure someone will believe it. Sadly all lore of the race says otherwise. Slaves, conquered people, hatred for all races of man, and their own plights in politics from the Hist and if you'd call it such a desire to cleanse the lands of all of the prior mentioned.

I've said it before, if you think the racials are bad. Make something comprehensible, looking and complaining is nothing. Talking to a game developer especially Zenimax is nothing short of politics and business. You'd do yourself a favor and best to give up if you can't realize that. So make a reason and show the new passives you so deeply desire. If other people felt so strongly this would be addressed.

EX:
Slithering: Increase hidden movement by 3, 6, 9%.
Quick to Mend: Increases healing received by 2, 4, 6%.
Amphibious: Ability to hide in water, increase swimming speed by 30% and the effectiveness of potions by 5, 10, 15%.
Vision of Peace: Increases all healing with restoration staff by 3, 6, 9%.

Now you have your view of the Shadowscales met, stealth now a major part of getting around Cyrodiil's waters, even some insight to the zealots who live for the land and Hist. I personally think this would make a much more interesting choice for someone wanting to make a stealthy character or a healer. Suddenly the Altmer templars are given a run for their money. The only problem is, there's no animation whatsoever for hiding in the water to my knowledge, but I've never tried debugging or cracking the game. Maybe there was an it was scrapped prior to Beta, no clue. I doubt they'd do this so make something that's practical.

Nutronic

@Rettile
That last bit was sarcasm directed at ZOS not you. My apologies for any confusion. Molagent says it very well, if you want their attention the best way is to advocate what you want, which you are, so thanks.

nothing2591

khajit sucks aswell , pls no moar hp regen

Varicite

Rettile wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler c'mon and say something!

lol, they wouldn't even say anything about WHY they nerfed one of the weakest races in the game down to almost nothing, what makes you think they'd say something NOW?

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

I would like to see something alone the lines of this as a literal lifetime fan of the series

Restoration expertise - Healing magic is a part of guerrilla tactics to be sure but even beyond that this doesn't make much of a difference putting it as a stamina weapon will be more self serving then race serving

Amphibious - Increase swimming speed by 100% while in water increase health, magic and stamina regeneration by 50%.
Honestly how often is the passive going to see action but it lines up with the lore

Argonian resistance - increase max health by 12% increase resistance to disease and poison damage by 1500 points and reduce the effects of poison them disease effect by 25%
So like healing debuffs and so on

Blessings of the Hist - increase healing done by 6% and decrease stealth detection range by what ever the other two bonuses are.

Restoration expertise is not really going to change the way anyone enjoys game lets just be honest there

Amphibious as much as I would like a 24/7 badass passive they have to include water it's just a part of it

Argonian Resistance 12% May look big but with Altmer getting 12% max magic, Red Guards getting 12% max stamina Bretons and Dark elves getting 10% max magic i'll be in with some resistance or damaged befg for each respective race this would not be a radical change 6% max health is very weak in comparison

Blessings of The Hist the Hist is the life force of Nirn not just Argonians so being born of that force with it being your soul and running though your veins it makes sense that it would let you heal more effectively, as a Nightblade I would love stealth damage but Argonian make great guerrilla fighters, scouts and thieves not being seen at all is 2 out of 3 of those so clear winner

I think all Argonians would love this change yes that means no potion passive but you gain so much more and you don't have to pay or farm to have a passive work

ThatNeonZebraAgain

Varicite wrote: »

Rettile wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler c'mon and say something!

lol, they wouldn't even say anything about WHY they nerfed one of the weakest races in the game down to almost nothing, what makes you think they'd say something NOW?

This is the truth. We've been vocal about Argonians' nerf since 1.6 hit the PTS in January and not a single thread received a response.

Molagent

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Rettile wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler c'mon and say something!

lol, they wouldn't even say anything about WHY they nerfed one of the weakest races in the game down to almost nothing, what makes you think they'd say something NOW?

This is the truth. We've been vocal about Argonians' nerf since 1.6 hit the PTS in January and not a single thread received a response.

Again, everyone complains about a nerf. Go play WoW, Rift, Guild Wars, Perfect World, APB:R, Maplestory the list goes on. Some developers address it, but only because it's the next months flavor so they drop someone else down a peg and everything is okay for the prior one now. Doesn't Nyhm even have a song about this? If you want something done, make it happen. Give it something to stick to lore for the Bethesda backing, and something small that doesn't require a ton of editing in code to be more interesting.

Varicite wrote: »

Rettile wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler c'mon and say something!

lol, they wouldn't even say anything about WHY they nerfed one of the weakest races in the game down to almost nothing, what makes you think they'd say something NOW?

If you think so highly of the Argonians, as I said. It's a politics and business game. Show reason, lore to get support from Bethesda and get backers at a minimum of hundred if not a thousand. A tall order? Maybe, reasonable and enough to make them start looking at it, well they added guild customizations and even added the Justice system. They made VR zones even harder just like players chanted out for... There's light, but you need to work your way down and make the echoes in the tunnel much louder.

nothing2591 wrote: »

khajit sucks aswell , pls no moar hp regen

Khajiit I don't think need any improvements at all. It's the best race to run if you want criticals and a stealth boost, especially with the Justice system now in place it's a very reasonable and profitable race.

@kendellking_chaosb14_ESO
If you cared so much about this topic you would have dedicated the time to finish your post. What's the point in complaining or even giving an "idea" if you won't make it solid? Children in a boardroom.