I can't take it! Argonian is soooo bad compared to other races.

Jar_Ek

@Nutronic Well a Breton tank will have much better magicka costs and hence be able to keep magicka based skills up easier and an Argonian will be easier to be healed. But any stamina race will be better than either. As for the healer... there will be no difference except the Argonian will level the rest staff quicker, slightly.

ThatHappyCat

Magicka's very important for tanks, so I'd argue a Breton tank is better than an Argonian tank.

Nutronic

@Jar_Ek I don't disagree with that. However, in terms of raw stat potential I'd personally say an Argonian tank has a bit more going for it (I play one, so we can just assume I'm being bias here). The facts are though that with enough gear and a strong enough play style, any race can do anything reasonably well.

Either way I'm just offering some devil's advocate because I don't feel like the race is completely useless yet. (even as a healer because of quick to mend they look kind of attractive).

@ThatHappyCat I'd also argue magicka is important for tanks, but running higher level content with a Stamina based tank is a bit easier than a Magicka based one. Eventually you can just stand in fire and hold block, not something I've seen many magicka based tanks accomplish.

ThatHappyCat

Nutronic wrote: »

@Jar_Ek I don't disagree with that. However, in terms of raw stat potential I'd personally say an Argonian tank has a bit more going for it (I play one, so we can just assume I'm being bias here). The facts are though that with enough gear and a strong enough play style, any race can do anything reasonably well.

Either way I'm just offering some devil's advocate because I don't feel like the race is completely useless yet. (even as a healer because of quick to mend they look kind of attractive).

@ThatHappyCat I'd also argue magicka is important for tanks, but running higher level content with a Stamina based tank is a bit easier than a Magicka based one. Eventually you can just stand in fire and hold block, not something I've seen many magicka based tanks accomplish.

It's not about magicka-based vs stamina-based tanks, all tanks need magicka. DK tanks need GDB (and to some extent Chains and Talons) and Templar tanks use Blazing Shield. Being able to use these powerful support skills more often is far more important than 3% extra HP and receiving wasted overheals from Breath of Life.

Jar_Ek

@Nutronic I understand your desire to play devil's advocate, but I feel it is misplaced. Even as tanks the Argonian passives are worse than most other races. And as healers, they have no advantages.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

What part of Guerrilla warfare involve standing and fighting for a long period of time. That would Guerrilla tactics are complete opposite in fact. A race that is born of and worships Sithis one of two original beings A God of Shadows and the Void. A people who's lands have never been invaded beyond the outer rims because of assassin that guard the inner Marsh that has NEVER been touch or seen by out sider

With that Shadow Scales all Argonians born under Shadow because Assassins from birth that like all Americans born under Leo being soldiers that's a lot of Assassins Shadows is in the sky for a month a month with all kids born becoming assassins and we can drink potions more efficiently!!!

We are a race that honors a God of Shadows, the best guerrilla fighters hands down, perfectly suited for scouting born of a harsh unforgiving Land with only the poison and disease passive reflectung this its no wonder many went Argonians Nightblade only damn thing we had going for a race that stood out in no other way

Nutronic

@ThatHappyCat Of course you need both resource pools to do the job well, but when I see my DK friends dawning tons of fire resistant gear, holding block and barely touching GBR or any other mana intensive abilities to just stand in fire and tank a boss like Elden Hollow's Deadric titan, I think that means Stamina has a bit more pull than Magicka.

I suppose I'll just concede to the point that Argonian passives for a tank are weak, but you have to remember those passives work for every heal, and they tick off all heals. I personally tank Argonian as a Sorc and I can tell you right now, I need a deep pool of both stam and mag to make that work. However, I do rely more on heals than I would with my DK or Templar because I don't have a massive mitigation tool or Evasion (trying new things). Besides, it's been my experience that no group holds 100% HP in a fight for more than 5-10 seconds. If the heals are going to get tossed out anyway might as well make the most of them.

@Jar_Ek I won't pursue the argument any more, but I feel I should point out that somewhere in these forums there was a discussion on the mending passive and how it actually does benefit argonians as healers. Either it had to due with the fact they do more healing on themselves and therefore can wear more pieces of light/heavy or that the amphibious potion passive made them attractive in that sense. Either way, not a huge advantage and certainly not a deep magicka pool or cost reduction so I guess it's a moot point anyway.


The bottom line I'm trying to make here is that stat per stat Argonian's and their passives may suck, but combined with the proper play-style I think they offer a fun and rewarding challenge that is completely viable. Either way, thanks for indulging my ramblings.

Rettile

Nutronic wrote: »

@Jar_Ek I won't pursue the argument any more, but I feel I should point out that somewhere in these forums there was a discussion on the mending passive and how it actually does benefit argonians as healers. Either it had to due with the fact they do more healing on themselves and therefore can wear more pieces of light/heavy or that the amphibious potion passive made them attractive in that sense. Either way, not a huge advantage and certainly not a deep magicka pool or cost reduction so I guess it's a moot point anyway.


The bottom line I'm trying to make here is that stat per stat Argonian's and their passives may suck, but combined with the proper play-style I think they offer a fun and rewarding challenge that is completely viable. Either way, thanks for indulging my ramblings.

they do more healing on themselves and therefore can wear more pieces of light/heavy? you know what are you talking about? link the discussion pls i want smile

that the amphibious potion passive made them attractive in that sense i don't understand if you are a troll or what... amphibious potion passive made attractive be an argonian healer? are you serious? for have what kind of bonus?

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

What part of Guerrilla warfare involve standing and fighting for a long period of time. That would Guerrilla tactics are complete opposite in fact. A race that is born of and worships Sithis one of two original beings A God of Shadows and the Void. A people who's lands have never been invaded beyond the outer rims because of assassin that guard the inner Marsh that has NEVER been touch or seen by out sider

With that Shadow Scales all Argonians born under Shadow because Assassins from birth that like all Americans born under Leo being soldiers that's a lot of Assassins Shadows is in the sky for a month a month with all kids born becoming assassins and we can drink potions more efficiently!!!

We are a race that honors a God of Shadows, the best guerrilla fighters hands down, perfectly suited for scouting born of a harsh unforgiving Land with only the poison and disease passive reflectung this its no wonder many went Argonians Nightblade only damn thing we had going for a race that stood out in no other way

Here we are XD

Nutronic

@Rettile At this point it doesn't matter what I say, if you have it made up in your mind I'm trolling then not really a point in humoring you. However I'm a glutton for punishment so here is a discussion that brings up something similar to what I had read before.

The point being once you add in class bonuses, armor bonuses and other things (pre 1.6) there are some attractive traits to tanking or healing with an Argonian. If you consider the Heavy armor "Rapid Mending" passive that could be an additional 7%-13% with just the racial and armor alone. If you want to add in 1.6 and the fact that other races will have to dip at least 10+champion points into "Blessed" from the apprentice tree to make up for that it makes it a tiny bit more attractive. However, the post I would like to find points out that even if you count HoTs ticks, it's only something like an additional 1-2k healing done overall (granted that was a post made before 1.6 fully came out so the numbers might be more attractive now). Again, I can't stress enough, it's not amazing and still needs attention from ZOS. My point being that the in-the-box thinking most people associate with the roles of tank and healer make Argonians a bad pick no matter how much those passives are buffed. That is a matter of perception, and it would either require new passives, or for people to change their minds (which can be done so long as people can prove it works and is competitive).

Oh and since Kendelking brought it up:

Guerrilla warefare: "The strategy and tactics of guerrilla warfare tend to focus around the use of a small, mobile force competing against a larger, more unwieldy one.[1] The guerrilla focuses on organizing in small units, depending on the support of the local population, as well as taking advantage of terrain more accommodating of small units." - Oxford History of Modern Warfare (you'll have to read the book to find the quote)

The Tali ban used guerrilla Tactics, Vietnamese used guerrilla tactics, and El Salvador in the 20th century. Sure its a lot of hit and run, but one thing all these battles had in common was using bunkers, hiding behind/utilizing civilians and knowing when to concede parts of your army to the superior force. The point being that if it was just hit and run tactics that's what they would call it, but it's not. It's digging in using the land to your advantage and winning mostly through attrition (that is whittling down the enemy's forces more so than just their resources). In a more lore related scenario, Argonians didn't "beat" Talos with just hit and run tactics, they pulled his army into Black Marsh where they had geographical, physiological, and possibly other unforeseen advantages. Even though the empire laid claim to Black Marsh through treaty, those Saxheel within still didn't recognize it. We also can't forget they pretty much sacrificed outlying territories like Shadowfen and Murkmire not only to the Empire but to the Dunmer as well.

Heck even when the Argonians did decide to march on the weakened Dunmeri houses after Vvardenfell blew up, they STILL couldn't defeat the highly organized and very disciplined Dark Elves. The historical facts are that Argonians are just better at taking and absorbing attacks than they are at full fledge offensives. At least as a race. Individually though, they still make the best assassins, but that's not in a straight up fight.

More on topic, I don't see the hit and run tactics being all that great outside of being a Nightblade for Argonians. Amphibious already gives them an advantage (which they can't effectively use yet) in the water, which if you consider a massive regiment of Argonians attacking a keep, then high tailing it into Lake Rumare (something people already do with "mass suicides")... sure >_> Problem is we want the race to be strong as individuals, so working with what they have should come first.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

You make strong points I have play this series since I was 6 years old and have always been an Argonian never once playing the other races in my heart of hearts Argonians make Natural assassins.

Much like Nord take to the Way of the Warrior, they can be great healers and powerful Mage's as one lead the Mage's Guild. High Elves are perfect Sorcerers yes they can but warriors as not all elves have magic (Lore) the simple fact is that all the races have a role that they fit more then any other for Agonians it's Stealth.

Side note we don't beat Talos he looked at the lands and armies he conquer knowing that Agonia is shielded by the Shadow Scales, The Hist and Sithis he knew his army would fall and with no clue as to what was at the heart of the marsh the risk was to high

Rettile

Nutronic wrote: »

@Rettile At this point it doesn't matter what I say, if you have it made up in your mind I'm trolling then not really a point in humoring you. However I'm a glutton for punishment so here is a discussion that brings up something similar to what I had read before.

The point being once you add in class bonuses, armor bonuses and other things (pre 1.6) there are some attractive traits to tanking or healing with an Argonian. If you consider the Heavy armor "Rapid Mending" passive that could be an additional 7%-13% with just the racial and armor alone. If you want to add in 1.6 and the fact that other races will have to dip at least 10+champion points into "Blessed" from the apprentice tree to make up for that it makes it a tiny bit more attractive. However, the post I would like to find points out that even if you count HoTs ticks, it's only something like an additional 1-2k healing done overall (granted that was a post made before 1.6 fully came out so the numbers might be more attractive now). Again, I can't stress enough, it's not amazing and still needs attention from ZOS. My point being that the in-the-box thinking most people associate with the roles of tank and healer make Argonians a bad pick no matter how much those passives are buffed. That is a matter of perception, and it would either require new passives, or for people to change their minds (which can be done so long as people can prove it works and is competitive).

Oh and since Kendelking brought it up:

Guerrilla warefare: "The strategy and tactics of guerrilla warfare tend to focus around the use of a small, mobile force competing against a larger, more unwieldy one.[1] The guerrilla focuses on organizing in small units, depending on the support of the local population, as well as taking advantage of terrain more accommodating of small units." - Oxford History of Modern Warfare (you'll have to read the book to find the quote)

The Tali ban used guerrilla Tactics, Vietnamese used guerrilla tactics, and El Salvador in the 20th century. Sure its a lot of hit and run, but one thing all these battles had in common was using bunkers, hiding behind/utilizing civilians and knowing when to concede parts of your army to the superior force. The point being that if it was just hit and run tactics that's what they would call it, but it's not. It's digging in using the land to your advantage and winning mostly through attrition (that is whittling down the enemy's forces more so than just their resources). In a more lore related scenario, Argonians didn't "beat" Talos with just hit and run tactics, they pulled his army into Black Marsh where they had geographical, physiological, and possibly other unforeseen advantages. Even though the empire laid claim to Black Marsh through treaty, those Saxheel within still didn't recognize it. We also can't forget they pretty much sacrificed outlying territories like Shadowfen and Murkmire not only to the Empire but to the Dunmer as well.

Heck even when the Argonians did decide to march on the weakened Dunmeri houses after Vvardenfell blew up, they STILL couldn't defeat the highly organized and very disciplined Dark Elves. The historical facts are that Argonians are just better at taking and absorbing attacks than they are at full fledge offensives. At least as a race. Individually though, they still make the best assassins, but that's not in a straight up fight.

More on topic, I don't see the hit and run tactics being all that great outside of being a Nightblade for Argonians. Amphibious already gives them an advantage (which they can't effectively use yet) in the water, which if you consider a massive regiment of Argonians attacking a keep, then high tailing it into Lake Rumare (something people already do with "mass suicides")... sure >_> Problem is we want the race to be strong as individuals, so working with what they have should come first.

Now i can say i'm with you, but rapid mandig it's not to high compared to other passive (bosmer, imperial, dummer...) and i repeat a potion passive it's unsless. And like @kendellking_chaosb14_ESO say in all the previus TES game Argonian was a perfect assasin skill, with health regen ability, natural armor and immunity to disease and poison, and i always played it like a warlock-warrior, so you can play your race like you want (i repeat i'm a tank also) but in this moment the racial passive don't reflect the previus natural ability of this population...

Rettile

But why ZOS don't reply? i want to know if they will chage racial again or what?

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Fizzlewizzle

I agree that Argonians need some love, i play one as my main (an argonian Templar, which basically means the two worst choices in a single roll). They recently (after a lot of pushing) answered a Templar topic, which gives me some hope for the Argonians... though it might take some time.

What i personally would love to see (Mostly based around lore) are the following changes:

Amphibious:
Increase Swimming Speed (50/75/100%) and big movement speed increase.

Quick to Mend:
Increase Health regeneration by 33/66/100%.

For the last one... The Poison and Disease resistance is nice, the HP one is just a bit sad.
They should either increase the HP Value, or change it to another bonus. Something more sneak-like would be nice, though the general "Stealthy" bonus sounds so plain. Maybe a small bonus against full health targets, something that also works when you are not sneaking.

The Idea behind Amphibious is added bonus on land as well as on the water. Argonian lore speaks of them as quick warriors, so giving them an all-terrain bonus seems very nice for that.

Same with Quick to mend. Being able to heal quicker or be healed quicker are two completely different things. The first one happens passively, while the seconds needs someone interacting with the Argonians. If you look at previous ES games then you see they could do it out of their own accord (Histskin). If you look atm at other Races then you see them being able to "heal" themselves quicker than an Argonian, which i think would be incorrect.

I was a bit divided between the Shadowscale idea and the current bonus. I like the current one because of the resistance (how useful/ useless that might be.. idk) But the HP is a bit sad and useless. Giving them a damage bonus (with or without sneak) would would play in the "Shadow Scales" favour.

Rettile

Fizzlewizzle wrote: »

i think 100% health regeneration bonus is much more... but a 21% will be fine, also quick to mend i think must stay in the passiev tree but maybe will affect healing done and recived...

Fizzlewizzle

Rettile wrote: »

Fizzlewizzle wrote: »

i think 100% health regeneration bonus it's a lot more... but a 21% like bosmer, also quick to mend i think it must stay in the passive tree but maybe like healing done and received...

I don't understand you very will... but in comparison to Bosmer the 100% health Regeneration doesn't seem that high. Nords, Khajiit and Orc receive 30% Health Regeneration with the Robust passive, and they haven't had any health regen in previous ES games unlike the Argonian.

I personally have not much problems with healing and healing received, but as someone mentioned earlier healing is nerfed in Cyrodiil, so having that seems a bit less valuable than having passive health regen. Argonians also never had that much of a healer function/ role in previous ES games.

They should bump up that value pretty high to make that useful, especially in cyrodiil, which might make it OP outside of Cyrodiil. (I wouldn't mind it... as i like the healer role).

Rettile

Fizzlewizzle wrote: »

Rettile wrote: »

Fizzlewizzle wrote: »

i think 100% health regeneration bonus it's a lot more... but a 21% like bosmer, also quick to mend i think it must stay in the passive tree but maybe like healing done and received...

I don't understand you very will... but in comparison to Bosmer the 100% health Regeneration doesn't seem that high. Nords, Khajiit and Orc receive 30% Health Regeneration with the Robust passive, and they haven't had any health regen in previous ES games unlike the Argonian.

I personally have not much problems with healing and healing received, but as someone mentioned earlier healing is nerfed in Cyrodiil, so having that seems a bit less valuable than having passive health regen. Argonians also never had that much of a healer function/ role in previous ES games.

They should bump up that value pretty high to make that useful, especially in cyrodiil, which might make it OP outside of Cyrodiil. (I wouldn't mind it... as i like the healer role).

Sorry for my english it's too bad, i think ZOS will never give uss a 100% health regen

Rettile

Amphibian Physiology (3 ranks) – Increases swimming speed by 50% and health regen in and out of combat (14/21/42)%

Argonian Hardiness (3 ranks) – Increases maximum Health by (1/3/6)% and Increases Poison/Disease resistance by 1440. Disease resistance should apply directly to disease abilities, lessening their effect by a flat amount (including meatbag catapults), Physical Protection (+2/3/6)%

Guerrilla Warfare Expertise (3 ranks) – Increases movement speed while stealthed by (7/14/21)% and increases non magicka based attacks while stealthed by (3/6/9)%

Nutronic

Health Regen is kinda terrible. It's really only useful in PVP and between encounters in PVE. Having a higher Health pool would be more desirable. Something like 3/6/12% in Amphibian works better IMO.

I Personally would cry if they added more stealth play to Argonians. Between Khajiit and Bosmer it'd be nice to have something different, not to mention you have to stack all these passives up against other races that currently have them. I still don't see a reason to make a nightblade Argonian over a Khajiit one even with the Warfare passive because it's essentially the same ones Khajiit get but without the bonus of Carnage...

Athas24

Argonians are such an interesting race but their passives in all the games have been Bleh compared to other races.
For all the stories I hear about their assassins, there's no racial passive for sneaking. Boo. They should have increased poison damage and resistance combined due to hunting and their homeland's foliage/swampish composition. I get the swimming speed and/or breath holding concept but it could be lumped in with any number of other things as a 2nd thought. I honestly don't mind the potion passive though. I don't even use potions or food on my characters in PVE because the game isn't difficult enough where I need to unless it's a really rare occasion or I'm soloing a World Boss in a Vet zone. The passive gives me a bit more incentive to use the potions I have stacked up with this passive....but it's not like, amazing or anything.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

Nutronic wrote: »

Health Regen is kinda terrible. It's really only useful in PVP and between encounters in PVE. Having a higher Health pool would be more desirable. Something like 3/6/12% in Amphibian works better IMO.

I Personally would cry if they added more stealth play to Argonians. Between Khajiit and Bosmer it'd be nice to have something different, not to mention you have to stack all these passives up against other races that currently have them. I still don't see a reason to make a nightblade Argonian over a Khajiit one even with the Warfare passive because it's essentially the same ones Khajiit get but without the bonus of Carnage...

A-freakin-greed on all points. The current passives aren't bad, it's their values that are really the problem.

Nutronic

@Athas24
Have you ever wondered why Argonians take Shadowscales from birth? I mean it'd be one thing if they were naturally sneaky like Khajiits or gifted mages like the Elves, but instead they have varied adaptability even beyond Men.

Consider this: Argonians when they are born are more so blank slates than any other race. The Hist give them names, a sex, a form and even a soul. To this end, the only natural gifts they are born with are those from the stars. If you consider the constellations to play a part in who they are to be as adults, then it just makes sense to take ALL possible shadow born into training because they would need a life time to make up for the natural advantages not afforded to them. If anything this is why shadow scales would make better assassins then even Dark Brotherhood or Morag Tong members due to the lifetime of training they have to go through.

Bottom line, Argonians must work harder for everything they want to be good at. However this makes their species extremely flexible and very resilient, and a VERY GOOD RP choice if you don't want a silver spoon in your mouth.

Still, they need buffs, slight ones, but noticeably good ones none-the-less.

Athas24

I get the hist stuff. Maybe to represent this they could have a bonus to train in and with anything showing adaptability? I still think poison, disease and such need to be represented in there with some sort of damage reduction. Maybe they could get a perk that allows for free respecs of skills that have been morphed! Adaptability FTW ! haha.

Rettile

Nutronic wrote: »

@Athas24
Have you ever wondered why Argonians take Shadowscales from birth? I mean it'd be one thing if they were naturally sneaky like Khajiits or gifted mages like the Elves, but instead they have varied adaptability even beyond Men.

Consider this: Argonians when they are born are more so blank slates than any other race. The Hist give them names, a sex, a form and even a soul. To this end, the only natural gifts they are born with are those from the stars. If you consider the constellations to play a part in who they are to be as adults, then it just makes sense to take ALL possible shadow born into training because they would need a life time to make up for the natural advantages not afforded to them. If anything this is why shadow scales would make better assassins then even Dark Brotherhood or Morag Tong members due to the lifetime of training they have to go through.

Bottom line, Argonians must work harder for everything they want to be good at. However this makes their species extremely flexible and very resilient, and a VERY GOOD RP choice if you don't want a silver spoon in your mouth.

Still, they need buffs, slight ones, but noticeably good ones none-the-less.

What are you saying it's correct, from RP side, but we can ask for passive like "bring what do you want", and a huge health regen it's not so bad, also in a duel 1vs1, a minimal bonus in physical protection will also a good think better then a "+6% when you spend money"

Fizzlewizzle

Rettile wrote: »

Nutronic wrote: »

@Athas24
Have you ever wondered why Argonians take Shadowscales from birth? I mean it'd be one thing if they were naturally sneaky like Khajiits or gifted mages like the Elves, but instead they have varied adaptability even beyond Men.

Consider this: Argonians when they are born are more so blank slates than any other race. The Hist give them names, a sex, a form and even a soul. To this end, the only natural gifts they are born with are those from the stars. If you consider the constellations to play a part in who they are to be as adults, then it just makes sense to take ALL possible shadow born into training because they would need a life time to make up for the natural advantages not afforded to them. If anything this is why shadow scales would make better assassins then even Dark Brotherhood or Morag Tong members due to the lifetime of training they have to go through.

Bottom line, Argonians must work harder for everything they want to be good at. However this makes their species extremely flexible and very resilient, and a VERY GOOD RP choice if you don't want a silver spoon in your mouth.

Still, they need buffs, slight ones, but noticeably good ones none-the-less.

What are you saying it's correct, from RP side, but we can ask for passive like "bring what do you want", and a huge health regen it's not so bad, also in a duel 1vs1, a minimal bonus in physical protection will also a good think better then a "+6% when you spend money"

Couldn't agree more.
For most people the pot bonus doesn't even restores enough to compare it to a normal regen tick. It would really need an enormous boost to actually become noticeable/ useful. Starting somewhere closer to 30% would be more useful, since its a "spend money" passive that only works once every 45 seconds. Will people playing other races accept that however is the question, and my guess would be that they rather see an other effect than that happen.

A high HP regen bonus is something that is useful no matter your build, playstyle or class. We all fight, we all lose HP, so gaining it passively won't hurt anyone. The Healing received bonus doesn't really help many classes besides the Templar, as they are the only ones with a burst heal. Getting a small bonus on a small heal won't really save your life. Getting a small bonus on a big heal might actually save you. Health regen however doesn't require you (or anyone else) to spend Magicka (or Stamina) to make use of the healing bonus, as it happens regardlessly.
(It also isn't nerfed by Cyrodiil or skills like Dark Flare).

Nutronic

Well 2 things and 1 suggestions:

1. Pots are technically free. Loot em, make, steal em, free.
2. Health regen while lore friendly only makes a a difference if you have a large pool to work with. The logic being that 10% of 10k (roughly 100hps) isn't that much compared to 10% of 25k (250hps). Even still from the bigger perspective that's only like a light attack's worth of damage recovered

Suggestion: Keep the pot passive, but make it like red diamond. Either pots have a chance to do a huge Magika/Health/Stamina heal/regen or each potion use grants 10-15% regen on all attributes. Mind you this gives it several bonuses over it's current state.

a. Can be use outside of combat
b. All potions (even invisibility, etc) work like elixirs of healing
c. The number is big enough that having enough points into anyone of those stats makes it noticeable, but small enough where it shouldn't be over powered.

If they simply doubled the Argonian resistance health buff I think this would be a good place to stop.

Just looking at the numbers though, I can see why ZOS isn't doing anything about this yet. Even though Argonians get crap all in any one direction, they do so much in so many places (disease and poison resist are kinda rare for how common the dmg type is) that buffing them just a little bit could tip them into OP land. Heck I think even my suggestion which really isn't all that much might seem OP if you consider someone with 300+ CP in a PVP campaign with over 25K in all stats...

As things stand now it might just be best to wait and see what happens, but in the mean time we should keep listing suggestions and what not so they can at least get a sense of what players want.

( @Fizzlewizzle You might want to consider crit surge {wrecking blow}, Green Dragon blood, and Siphon health + morphs )

Molagent

Without a doubt I agree that Argonians need to be looked at. I personally love my Bosmer, Imperial and Dunmer and Altmer... The better question is, if you could what would you change them to? I'm pretty sure though that Quick to Mend used to be an output not input passive.. Maybe the time from not having played distorted memory? Would be nicer to have that, something to compete with Altmer for healers. If anything I can't honestly see a reason for the swim speed bonus, I can't think of a time I was in water in ESO. Ever. I'd say make it something like the lines of being in water and having your health, stam and mag regens increase by 20%. Would make it nicer, but still, where is there water in dungeons and trials that can make use of this? Other than Selene's Web. I still believe (if it hasn't already been done) Longclaw needs a damn nerf. Traps, shooting into water and insane distance, the poison and damn ghosts.. SO again, if you hate it so much don't complain look to reasoning and see how to improve.

My personal opinion all the racials are fine for all races except for Orsimer and Argonians, both of which needing to be buffed slightly by at least 1-3%. I never played either of them though so what do I know?

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Nutronic wrote: »

Health Regen is kinda terrible. It's really only useful in PVP and between encounters in PVE. Having a higher Health pool would be more desirable. Something like 3/6/12% in Amphibian works better IMO.

I Personally would cry if they added more stealth play to Argonians. Between Khajiit and Bosmer it'd be nice to have something different, not to mention you have to stack all these passives up against other races that currently have them. I still don't see a reason to make a nightblade Argonian over a Khajiit one even with the Warfare passive because it's essentially the same ones Khajiit get but without the bonus of Carnage...

That facts is that Argonians are a Stealth race but just like Nord, Red Guard, Orcs and Imperials are Warrior Races. Should they lose that part of their lore cause their are other warrior options

Nutronic

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

That facts is that Argonians are a Stealth race but just like Nord, Red Guard, Orcs and Imperials are Warrior Races. Should they lose that part of their lore cause their are other warrior options

That's the thing, they aren't. Shadow Scales are the only stealthy faction within their culture (that we know of). Aside from Skyrim they've never even had a bonus towards sneak (unless you count removed athletics), even then it was really tiny. So far, the only stealth races in the game are Khajiit and Bosmer. Unless you'd consider Imperials and Dunmer stealth races as well by way of the Blades/Morag tong :P

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Nutronic wrote: »

@Athas24
Have you ever wondered why Argonians take Shadowscales from birth? I mean it'd be one thing if they were naturally sneaky like Khajiits or gifted mages like the Elves, but instead they have varied adaptability even beyond Men.

Consider this: Argonians when they are born are more so blank slates than any other race. The Hist give them names, a sex, a form and even a soul. To this end, the only natural gifts they are born with are those from the stars. If you consider the constellations to play a part in who they are to be as adults, then it just makes sense to take ALL possible shadow born into training because they would need a life time to make up for the natural advantages not afforded to them. If anything this is why shadow scales would make better assassins then even Dark Brotherhood or Morag Tong members due to the lifetime of training they have to go through.

Bottom line, Argonians must work harder for everything they want to be good at. However this makes their species extremely flexible and very resilient, and a VERY GOOD RP choice if you don't want a silver spoon in your mouth.

Still, they need buffs, slight ones, but noticeably good ones none-the-less.

You are assuming that the shadow scales are raised from birth because they are weak in stealth and need to train hard when in the lore it's cause the Argonians are a quiet, pacifist race with strong powers of Shadows and life the Shadow Scales do the hard job so the other can live in peace we are natural assassins that choose a different path

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Nutronic wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

That facts is that Argonians are a Stealth race but just like Nord, Red Guard, Orcs and Imperials are Warrior Races. Should they lose that part of their lore cause their are other warrior options

That's the thing, they aren't. Shadow Scales are the only stealthy faction within their culture (that we know of). Aside from Skyrim they've never even had a bonus towards sneak (unless you count removed athletics), even then it was really tiny. So far, the only stealth races in the game are Khajiit and Bosmer. Unless you'd consider Imperials and Dunmer stealth races as well by way of the Blades/Morag tong :P

Go to the main page in the race short intro Argonian are guerrilla fighters and scouts both require stealth nearly all wars were fought not head on but from the blind spots in fact all the lore you can find on Argonian all say the same thing that is this way or that way Argonians are the best a some aspect of stealth.

To have none of the stealth bonuses but have swimming is completely pointless hell I have died trapped in Cyrodiil between an enemy group and the river when an Argonian outnumbered sees water and knows that he will dies (polar opposite of what should happen) then that a huge problem