Damage shields should act like temporary hit points

Snit

jrkhan wrote: »

My argument is a follows, feel free to disagree with any of the following...

There are a few flaws with your argument, not the least of which is this: It's a guide on how to lose to a sorc.

You are thinking about how to kill the shield. That's easy. It's less than 10k on the vast majority of sorcs, and it has no mitigation other than immunity to crits (and some DoT's). The shield is not your problem.

The hard kill is the sorc inside, who probably has 20k+ HP, at least some armor mitigation and the ability to block. He's also about to recast his shield unless you do something right now. Almost any form of CC will work here. Your worst case scenario is that he breaks free and recasts his shield. He's now at half health, half stamina and you can start again with a large advantage. Or you might just kill him, in which case crit can help quite a bit.

Good players kill sorcs all the time. They know how to use CC and time burst. They're the same players that know how to kill good Templar healers or beefy DK's. Other players just try to overpower the 'shield' with a damage move and flail away in frustration.

Finally, people stopped using the Impenetrable trait because it's now awful. If all shields were removed from the game, it would remain awful. The new version provides far less mitigation than the 1.5 version.

jrkhan

@Snit Which point did you disagree with?
I am honestly confused by this response, so, going to try a different approach

Let's say I found with my current build, that I was having trouble with the easy part and couldn't get through the initial shield? Let's say I had 1800 weapon damage and around 18000 stamina, but 60% crit and 28k hp. How would you suggest I redistribute my stats in order to do the easy part, if I found it difficult?

Snit

jrkhan wrote: »

@Snit Which point did you disagree with?
I am honestly confused by this response, so, going to try a different approach

Your theory is that the existence of shields will drive itemization choices, and that crit is therefore devalued. I disagree. Killing shields is easy. If you're basing your gear and skill selections around killing shields, you're not thinking about the part of the fight that's actually difficult: How do I stop the shield from being recast.

As far as your own build, figure out a way to do 8-10k damage in two abilities against a target with zero mitigation. If you can't do that, your issues are gear- or skill-related. If you don't regularly weave light/ medium attacks in your rotation, for example, your issue is not with class balance.

jrkhan

This is a hypothetical build.

Let's say player in question is proficient in all forms of animation canceling.

Do you believe a player with those stats finds it easy to get through 8k shields?

Snit

jrkhan wrote: »

This is a hypothetical build.

Let's say player in question is proficient in all forms of animation canceling.

Do you believe a player with those stats finds it easy to get through 8k shields?

Anyone who can't get through 8k in unmitigated damage, and quickly, has problems class balance can't fix.

If you're going to drag this out with a socratic method style, at least skip the silly questions.

jrkhan

Alrighty, so back of the envelope math more to your liking?
Based on the formula found here:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/149498/new-dps-calculations

We find the average coefficient is something like, .1 for instant cast skills.
There's a table of exact values for each skill's coefficient linked later in the thread.

Let's take 2 abilities as the benchmark for easy to get through.
Also, consider the 20% damage reduction in Cyro

We need a minimum of
4,000 * 10 * 1.2 = 48,000 between power and stat to break through in 2 hits.

Our 1800 wp 18,000 stam case ends up at 36,828.

After his two attacks the shield has ~1800 hp left. If they wove a single light attack, then we can assume they would be very close to breaking through, but not quite.


An 11k shield (which is quite possible) would definitely be three to four abilities, with weaving.

I'm not seeing there being an 'easy' way without stacking more stam/weapondamge.

The fact that in practice many players have far exceeded these values and do find it trivial to break 8k shields, somewhat proves the point.


It becomes an arms race between stat pool of shield stacker vs stat pool + power of attacker.

Assuming you have a purple v14 weapon providing 1300ish power, and are using major brutality, you still need a set bonus and enchants to even get to 1800.

I'm just not seeing how it's easy to get through shields without hitting at least these values.

Snit

jrkhan wrote: »

Our 1800 wp 18,000 stam case ends up at 36,828

If you have 1,800 Weapon Power and 18,000 Stamina, you should probably stay in (large) groups. I run with 2,400 Spell Power and 27,000 magicka, self-buffed, and my gear is not all best-in-slot. There's room to improve it. So, in Cyrodiil terms, your hypothetical whatever has an awful gearset.

Again, not a class balance issue. Chars in bad gear should not expect to regularly burst down chars in good gear.

cschwingeb14_ESO

That's quite the straw man you've got going there. What terrible setup has only 1800 weapon damage and 60%crit? Crit right now has very bad damage return on set bonus investment.

2h legendary weapon starts you out at almost 1600 WD with 5-medium passive and no buffs. Optimum WD setups are hitting 3500 WD with ravager buff up.

If you can't get ravager, them hundigs/skirmisher is pretty cheap. Jewelry can be tough

You're also ignoring +physical damage and crit damage and light/heavy attack Champ bonuses

jrkhan

The fact that you can determine from those two stats alone that a solo player poses no threat to you, is kind of my point.
I'm agreeing with you, 60% crit chance and 1,800 WD is a terrible setup.
Two stats, and a player goes from being a viable threat, to someone who needs to stick to groups.

We can calculate that to two shot your shield, you've got to stack to something like 2k WD / 24k stam.
I don't like that meta.

Snit

jrkhan wrote: »

The fact that you can determine from those two stats alone that a solo player poses no threat to you..

A solo player in awful gear poses little threat to one in all legendary gear.

The fact that you see this as an issue proves... hell, I have no idea what it proves, other than this is a debate not worth having.

jrkhan

So, back to Socratic here:

If you agree that mediocre weapon damage and high crit make for a terrible build, that can't easily make it through your shield...

Then how can you argue that damage shields don't make crit builds less attractive/viable?

Snit

jrkhan wrote: »

So, back to Socratic here:

If you agree that mediocre weapon damage and high crit make for a terrible build, that can't easily make it through your shield...

Then how can you argue that damage shields don't make crit builds less attractive/viable?

I agree that awful gear is not useful in Cyrodiil. BTW, I am a crit build.

jrkhan

What kind of stats are you rockin'?

jrkhan

cschwingeb14_ESO wrote: »

You're also ignoring +physical damage and crit damage and light/heavy attack Champ bonuses

I figured the +physical more or less canceled out +shield champ points. In scenario above I only figured one light attack. You're right though, as champ points increase across the board damage shields are less well off.
However, that crit damage stat is entirely useless ; )

In fact, original solution would probably buff damage shields in the long run, which is why I find all the "here's how you deal with a sorc" responses to be kind of ironic.

Soarin'

Tankqull wrote: »

Soarin' wrote: »

Let us note that all the other active defence options apart from shields somehow gimp your ability to also provide steady dps, either by need to use instant cast abilities for blocking or not being able to do anything in the case of dodge rolling.

Also comparatively speaking the amount of magika resource used for damage negated with a shield is much lower than that of a stamina based comparable active skill like blocking or rolling.

Feel free to provide information contrary to this if you can find it.

WTF - the only shield that is not denying an attack while aplying it is the templer shield wich is nolonger beeing complained at. all other shields prohibit as much attacks to be done by the caster as roll dodging prohibits attacks done by the roler.
casting a shield cost exactly as much as rolling once with the same amount of attention used for the reduction of it, and in both cases it increases the amount of possible attacks the same way. while shields are gone after 1-2 attacks while rolling can prevent from 1- infinite numbers of attacks.

so WTF are you smoking?

With shielding your DPS is reduced by the total cast time of the shield itself, this is superior in the smaller scale pvp environment where the number of hostile combatants numbers around 1-3. Shields can be pre-cast before you take any damage, not like the damage mitigation of a dodge roll. Overall there is less DPS downtime than the other damage mitigating effects. Your resource management for magika when factoring in cost reduction and set bonuses is much more stable (ignore bolt escape and keep it out of this discussion).

Rolling is more effective than shields for countering say a damage spike from a zerg. Rolling to avoid dying to that magnitude of incoming damage only delays the inevitable, you are going to die because you are not going to evade them.

You are so biased in your choice of combat situation it is laughable.

Tankqull

Soarin' wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

Soarin' wrote: »

Let us note that all the other active defence options apart from shields somehow gimp your ability to also provide steady dps, either by need to use instant cast abilities for blocking or not being able to do anything in the case of dodge rolling.

Also comparatively speaking the amount of magika resource used for damage negated with a shield is much lower than that of a stamina based comparable active skill like blocking or rolling.

Feel free to provide information contrary to this if you can find it.

WTF - the only shield that is not denying an attack while aplying it is the templer shield wich is nolonger beeing complained at. all other shields prohibit as much attacks to be done by the caster as roll dodging prohibits attacks done by the roler.
casting a shield cost exactly as much as rolling once with the same amount of attention used for the reduction of it, and in both cases it increases the amount of possible attacks the same way. while shields are gone after 1-2 attacks while rolling can prevent from 1- infinite numbers of attacks.

so WTF are you smoking?

With shielding your DPS is reduced by the total cast time of the shield itself, this is superior in the smaller scale pvp environment where the number of hostile combatants numbers around 1-3. Shields can be pre-cast before you take any damage, not like the damage mitigation of a dodge roll. Overall there is less DPS downtime than the other damage mitigating effects. Your resource management for magika when factoring in cost reduction and set bonuses is much more stable (ignore bolt escape and keep it out of this discussion).

Rolling is more effective than shields for countering say a damage spike from a zerg. Rolling to avoid dying to that magnitude of incoming damage only delays the inevitable, you are going to die because you are not going to evade them.

You are so biased in your choice of combat situation it is laughable.

hmm i´m not even chosing a combat situation. its just a 1 to 1 comparison.
but using your example - small scale fights are determined by the factor of surprise, so you are precasting your shields to make your "prey" know exactly that and where you are and that you are going to attack him completly negating this significant advantage.
sorcs beeing complained about are not the ones with maximum reduction but those who actually hurt and not tickle their opponents wich can only be obtained by neglecting reduce values but on jewelery entirely for spell dmg. sure you can win fights as a sorc by attrition too but those fights are decided by whom gets friendly added first (especially when you are having a small scale skrimish creating fightning swords on the map rather quick )

eventide03b14a_ESO

Why has this thread not died yet?

Snit

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Why has this thread not died yet?

For some folks, the only thing they know about sorcs is that they can't kill them.

They assume the issue is damage shields.

Ezareth

jrkhan

I was about to respond (again) that the original suggestion would likely turn out to be a buff to overall mitigation provided, and that it's in no way about sorcs. But I have no faith that the innumerate will see it that way.

So instead, a question.

What do you call it when you necro your own thread?
Would that be autonecrotic? How gross is that...

AhPook_Is_Here

jrkhan wrote: »

This is a hypothetical build.

Let's say player in question is proficient in all forms of animation canceling.

Do you believe a player with those stats finds it easy to get through 8k shields?

LOL I can heavy attack out of stealth with a bow on my dk for 18k. Honestly it is easy, and much easier for stealth classes. From stealth I have opened for over 38k ranged. I have been hit for over 45k instant damage from bow users. If you use a bow, maybe you need to have a little pow-wow with someone.

jrkhan

Yea, it's a neat dk ability. I find it odd how it applies to the last tick of a channeled heavy lightning or resto, where as other similar bonuses (undaunted infiltrator/sorc 11% bonus) apply to each tic.

Anyway, yea! That 43% extra damage on your heavy attack, even more if your target was low health to begin with, auto critting with extra damage from stealth... I'm sure that puts up a nice number.

However, I'm still not seeing how this adds up for you at approximaty 18k stam and 1.8k wd.
Or, do you agree that stacking stat + wd are necessary for these numbers/generally effective pvp?

I suppose I fail at expressing the point I am trying to argue (or we're all way too accustomed to reductive arguments), either way the failure is mine.

I understand, but do not like the current gearing meta, that is all.
Resume the dead horse beating!

AhPook_Is_Here

jrkhan wrote: »

Yea, it's a neat dk ability. I find it odd how it applies to the last tick of a channeled heavy lightning or resto, where as other similar bonuses (undaunted infiltrator/sorc 11% bonus) apply to each tic.

Anyway, yea! That 43% extra damage on your heavy attack, even more if your target was low health to begin with, auto critting with extra damage from stealth... I'm sure that puts up a nice number.

However, I'm still not seeing how this adds up for you at approximaty 18k stam and 1.8k wd.
Or, do you agree that stacking stat + wd are necessary for these numbers/generally effective pvp?

I suppose I fail at expressing the point I am trying to argue (or we're all way too accustomed to reductive arguments), either way the failure is mine.

I understand, but do not like the current gearing meta, that is all.
Resume the dead horse beating!

I have good gear, I run about 3k weapon damage and 22k sta and 30k hp. I think you need to play with it some, a lot of the game is timing your attacks. when you break it, if you are doing 2h, dragonleap at point blank range on to them and you should be able to finish them before they can break free.

johndawntb14_ESO

Bashev wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

nothing2591 wrote: »

sorcs and their shields are broken no point in playing stamina nightblade when sorcs can just shield for 100% of their hp with one press at a button while i have 0 healing.

Lol, you might want to think about draining your opponents stamina so he cant block/break free when feared/get up when he's knocked down and isnt able to recast his shield. Hardened ward only shields for about 10k without any mitigation so it shouldnt take you more than 2 hits to break the shield.

Off course you can do this against noobs. Good sors dont block and use damage shields, when you use CC he breaks and he has 8 seconds immunity. During this immunity the stamina is regenerated 4*800. The good sors never stay in mele range and you cannot dps effectively. The good sors is always mobile. If you root the sors he will bolt escape with the roots. If you charge the sors he will bollt escape 2-3 times in a row. You will drain your stamina and he will kill you. The good sors casts halalling ward on low health and bolt escapes. He comes back with full health and full shields.

Trying to balance based on the "good" players is how you get classes that no one can play effectively.

The good sorc will win. The bad sorc will lose.

Snit

jrkhan wrote: »

But I have no faith that the innumerate will see it that way

You posited an attacker in greens with 1.8k weapon power, then asked whether they could reasonably chew through a damage shield. Nobody running with 1.8k weapon power should expect to kill healers or sorcs very often, unless it's part of an extreme regen-attrition build.

You've proved that it's impossible to achieve low earth orbit by firing a mouse from a slingshot. So what?

That does not prove we are innumerate.

TheBull

Man someone is HYPER defensive? I wonder why.

jrkhan

I do bite my thumb sir, but not at thee.

The innumerate comment was regarding perceiving the original suggestion as a nerf to damage shields. As several people mentioned, it would be a significant buff to many damage shield users.

Assuming an average player may have 40% crit, and that a crit deals ~50% bonus damage.
So, overall 20% additional damage from crits.

If you have > 20% damage reduction (including specific damage type reduction from champ points), then you are better off with the proposed change.

However, if you factor in the current, somewhat erratic behavior of the attack that actually breaks the shield (seems to be able to crit AND ignores resists) the threshold would be significantly lower.

Also, as it stands, damage shields only benefit from a single champion passive - as you are able to apply more defensive passives to your shield, the better off it will be in the long run.

Look, if I could just reduce the gravitational constant (or maybe the mass of Earth) my slingshot could totally launch that mouse into orbit!

Ezareth

jrkhan wrote: »

I do bite my thumb sir, but not at thee.

The innumerate comment was regarding perceiving the original suggestion as a nerf to damage shields. As several people mentioned, it would be a significant buff to many damage shield users.

Assuming an average player may have 40% crit, and that a crit deals ~50% bonus damage.
So, overall 20% additional damage from crits.

If you have > 20% damage reduction (including specific damage type reduction from champ points), then you are better off with the proposed change.

However, if you factor in the current, somewhat erratic behavior of the attack that actually breaks the shield (seems to be able to crit AND ignores resists) the threshold would be significantly lower.

Also, as it stands, damage shields only benefit from a single champion passive - as you are able to apply more defensive passives to your shield, the better off it will be in the long run.

Look, if I could just reduce the gravitational constant (or maybe the mass of Earth) my slingshot could totally launch that mouse into orbit!

The average player right now is running far less than 40% crit. I only run 35% myself and I have the 12% spell crit passive.

Your suggestion to remove the crit immunity while granting armor bonuses to damage shields would nerf Light armor even further and shift the balance completely to heavy armor.

Imagine a heavy armor sorc with lightning form and 25K armor spamming damage shields? Just not a good idea.

Sypher

Damage shields are okay in my opinion but can we just get these bugs fixed?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPSbnSbqwqc

They prevent certain CC and negate certain abilities (FOR EXAMPLE: No magicka is returned from elemental drain if you are damaging a shield)


Also, I always hear people say Shields have ZERO spell resist. I did some testing recently and apparently your spell resist applies to your shield anyways? Is this new or .. ?

bloodenragedb14_ESO

another post about damage shields with a majority on the commentators being against changes. Again, i ask you to play the game and get better rather than posting a beacon about your lack of skill ingame