Damage shields should act like temporary hit points

jrkhan

Having a different set of rules for damage shields increases complexity while reducing build diversity.
It's my understanding that shields: have no mitigation, ignore crits, ignore bleeds

In its current implementation, several defensive options are completely negated. If you made the choice to stack nothing but magika or hp to increase shield values, you should not have greater survivability against crit builds than if you had chosen to spec and gear for critical resistance. Same with bleeds, there are already specific counters for damage over time effects (dot reduction passive), stacking magika should not be a more effective strategy than passives that serve no other purpose.

As it stands, having light or medium armor with the corresponding cost reduction affords many builds with significantly greater survivability than heavy armor, due to the ability to more freely cast abilities which generate damage shields.

Just my 2c, make damage shields work like temp hp instead of their own animal and it will help make choices between offense and defense more meaningful.

Ezareth

The choices are already meaningful. The devs are aware of how Damage shields work, they designed them that way.

Did this post really deserve it's own thread? Couldn't you have posted it in one of the other dozen or so threads out there? Why don't you make a Nerf Bolt Escape thread while you're at it....

daktary2001

Stop aggressing him immediatly

Ezareth

daktary2001 wrote: »

Stop aggressing him immediatly

Sorry there are so many of these threads in so many forums its getting hard (and annoying) to keep tabs on them all to prevent misinformation from spreading.

technohic

Shields also are not getting any mitigation. If someone hits for 10k, that what the shield takes. Maybe thats what you intend so a tank in heavy armor would even have a better shield?

jrkhan

This thread was to address a specific suggestion which I had not seen discussed elsewhere.

Let's put it this way: if I have a choice between two set bonuses, one which increases my hp/magika pool,, and the other increases my spell resist, the choice is not meaningful if stacking my one stat (that has many other benefits) is more effective at reducing spell damage (due to larger damage shield) while spell resist has no effect whatsoever because my huge shield does not benefit from increased mitigation.

Obviously the devs understand the mechanics they implemeted, ez. Thanks for that insight.

Edit--
And I find it kind of amusing how many people believe this wouldn't turn out to be a buff in the long run

nothing2591

sorcs and their shields are broken no point in playing stamina nightblade when sorcs can just shield for 100% of their hp with one press at a button while i have 0 healing.

eventide03b14a_ESO

technohic wrote: »

Shields also are not getting any mitigation. If someone hits for 10k, that what the shield takes. Maybe thats what you intend so a tank in heavy armor would even have a better shield?

I think the OP thinks that wards, because that's what they are, give an unfair advantage to magicka builds. Wards are effective and they should be more than just temporary HP. Otherwise they would just be a healing spell. Anytime I see any threads that claim that spells offer some sort of advantage never take into account what they cost. Heavy armor and it's passive bonuses are there regardless of how much magicka or stamina you have, it's a permanent effect. Wards require that the caster constantly replenish them to make them effective and it is possible to do enough DPS to eat through them. The same goes for bolt escape, which is just a way for magicka sorcerers to use their magicka pool instead of their much smaller stamina pool for moving quickly (sprinting) and getting out of the way of AoE's (roll dodging) etc, because one or two break free and they are completely wiped of all stamina.

jrkhan

technohic wrote: »

Shields also are not getting any mitigation. If someone hits for 10k, that what the shield takes. Maybe thats what you intend so a tank in heavy armor would even have a better shield?

Yes, exactly. It would also make armor and spell pen more universally applicable.

AltusVenifus

nothing2591 wrote: »

sorcs and their shields are broken no point in playing stamina nightblade when sorcs can just shield for 100% of their hp with one press at a button while i have 0 healing.

I am not opposed to sorc having survivability, freedom of movement and damage, however, I have stopped attacking them at this point. I am not good enough to deal with a 10k shield, when my 2400 weapon power and 28k stamina hits for a stealthed attack 12k, ranged attack 2-4k ranged, melee attack 7-8k. The math just isn't there, I can't bust their shields while they turtle and sling spells at me. Even the crappy ones can 2 button destroy me right now...

Ezareth

jrkhan wrote: »

This thread was to address a specific suggestion which I had not seen discussed elsewhere.

Let's put it this way: if I have a choice between two set bonuses, one which increases my hp/magika pool,, and the other increases my spell resist, the choice is not meaningful if stacking my one stat (that has many other benefits) is more effective at reducing spell damage (due to larger damage shield) while spell resist has no effect whatsoever because my huge shield does not benefit from increased mitigation.

Obviously the devs understand the mechanics they implemeted, ez. Thanks for that insight.

The whole concept of damage shields as they exist right now is an interesting one.

What you're suggesting is more of a homogenization between passive and active defenses and that is something that is very boring to me and leads to less interesting choices.

Think of Shields are a sort of 100% "Block" that draws upon a difference resource pool and require an active cast that is limited by the global cooldown instead of holding your right mouse button.

Basically there are four general types of defenses in the game.

Passive defenses are applied your health pool. These are Armor, Spell Resistance and Crit resistance.
Active Defenses are Dodge Roll, Block and Damage Shields.

Dodge roll completely ignores 100% of damage for the duration of the roll with the exception of the abilities that can't be dodged. You also can't take any actions during the course of a dodge roll without removing it's protection (barring some sets which give you .3 second immunity after).

Block greatly reduces all incoming damage depending on various damage bonuses, armor bonuses, damage type etc. You can typically use instant cast abilities while blocking (called block casting).

Damage shields protect you 100% from critical hits yet receive no benefit from passive defenses unlike any damage you take while Dodge rolling or Blocking(with no shields active). You can block with a damage shield up but it doesn't reduce the damage done to it, only protects you from blockable effects (while draining your stamina). The only way to increases the effectiveness of a damage shield is to increase the stat that it is based upon or by putting points into the Bastion Champion skill.

All four of these defensive options are currently very unique and strong in some situations and weak in others and they above all else are what makes the combat system in ESO very fun enjoyable.

Changing damage shields to be fundamentally different is not something that should be considered.

jrkhan

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Shields also are not getting any mitigation. If someone hits for 10k, that what the shield takes. Maybe thats what you intend so a tank in heavy armor would even have a better shield?

I think the OP thinks that wards, because that's what they are, give an unfair advantage to magicka builds.

I think that wards overall mitigation is probably okay. They are a way to proactively prevent expected incoming damage (vs reactively healing damage which has occurred).

The issue is that a shields effectiveness is determined by a single stat (and provides immunities).
It applies equally to bone/blazing shield (scales with hp) as well as brawler and shielded assault (or whatever the shield charge morph is called).

And the issue is that shields are disproportionately good at preventing some types of damage (mainly crit)

There is one champion passive, 1 trait, one skill (mage light morph), and one armor set bonus (construct) that reduce crit damage.

A damage shield should not negate all of those defensive abilities by providing total immunity.(And that's not counting all the offensive crit traits, passives and set bonuses which are made almost entirely irrelevant)


Ironically, one of the best ways to eat through a shield would be stacking your makicka/stam pool.

I just feel like there are many good builds that could exist (diversity) if shield mechanics were to change.

DHale

AltusVenifus wrote: »

nothing2591 wrote: »

sorcs and their shields are broken no point in playing stamina nightblade when sorcs can just shield for 100% of their hp with one press at a button while i have 0 healing.

I am not opposed to sorc having survivability, freedom of movement and damage, however, I have stopped attacking them at this point. I am not good enough to deal with a 10k shield, when my 2400 weapon power and 28k stamina hits for a stealthed attack 12k, ranged attack 2-4k ranged, melee attack 7-8k. The math just isn't there, I can't bust their shields while they turtle and sling spells at me. Even the crappy ones can 2 button destroy me right now...

I thought Sorcs were nerfed, nah PVP wrecking machines as always, pst

Derra

If you really think light or medium armor (apart from infinitydodgeroll with a really good ping) can only com CLOSE to the survivability of heavy you have not met any competent player in cyro. Light and med armor users alike melt when you catch them on the wrong foot.

Edit: Also i really do believe that you don´t want high magica tanks with shields that get affected by their passive dmg mitigation in this game.

jrkhan

@Ezareth
Appreciate the thoughtful response. The idea of a shield being an active defense is interesting. Conceptually, I agree with what you are saying, that a shield should be an active tool to prevent incoming damage.

I'm still not convinced (conceptually) that additional immunities are necessary for a ward to provide an active defensive option against citical hits and bleeds.

Perhaps, shorter duration shields with explicit tooltips could convey these bonuses? I'm not sure if in practise an instantly recastable 20+ second duration immunity really fits my definition of active.

Let's put it this way, I'd consider slotting an ability that said "for 20 seconds or until you take 5,500 damage you are immune to all critical hits"

That's pretty powerful even if it didn't prevent the damage from occurring.

jrkhan

In the name of active gameplay, would you be okay with more abilities that dispel positive effects on target, or possibly deal additional damage against shields? (With minimal effectiveness against non shielded targets)

@Derra I was not suggesting that heavy armor was overall an inferior choice for survivability. It's just that if I've already committed to a strategy that involves chain casting an ability which generates a shield, I am strongly encouraged by current mechanisms to stack a single stat.
Do you know many competent players that actually attempt to balance out their stats? It seems most builds heavily stack their damage type, with the occasional hp stacking supertank.

k2blader

nothing2591 wrote: »

sorcs and their shields are broken no point in playing stamina nightblade when sorcs can just shield for 100% of their hp with one press at a button while i have 0 healing.

Seriously can you please stop lying? 8k is not equal to 21k, which are my Hardened Ward strength and my health, respectively.

Re. your second lie, everyone has access to healing abilities.

Maybe you're very young or very new or both, but please stop lying just because you got killed by a sorc.

TheBonesXXX

Just apply Disease to reduce shield strength on top of healing done. Shields have a lack of penalty as oppose to dodge rolling, block canceling, and healing.

I'm all for a new Mystic/Shaman/Druid like class with an offensive purge >:D

Derra

jrkhan wrote: »

In the name of active gameplay, would you be okay with more abilities that dispel positive effects on target, or possibly deal additional damage against shields? (With minimal effectiveness against non shielded targets)

@Derra I was not suggesting that heavy armor was overall an inferior choice for survivability. It's just that if I've already committed to a strategy that involves chain casting an ability which generates a shield, I am strongly encouraged by current mechanisms to stack a single stat.
Do you know many competent players that actually attempt to balance out their stats? It seems most builds heavily stack their damage type, with the occasional hp stacking supertank.

I have actually seen a lot players trying to balance out their builds. The champion system made that a million times more challenging than it was in 1.5 though. The only ones not playing some kind of balanced setup are stealthy type of characters.

To complicate things further: I don´t think you can only talk of a balanced build stat wise but have to take into account the abilities slottet (this is where stamina builds fall a little short bc they´re lacking utility spells that help balance out offensive gear setup eg).

olsborg

If someone has an issue with damage shields, and want to give them mitigation, but be crittable...isnt that just about the same thing....just slightly different, I dont see the need for such a change. It would be bad.

Damage shields are fine as is.

Bashev

Almost no builds can burst 10k shields every 2 seconds. Shields should be affected of healing debuff or probably they should have a CD equal to the CC immunity duration.

Lava_Croft

Anyone playing PvP can hardly deny that at the moment, Sorcerers are simply too strong. All a Sorcerer has to do is stack Magicka to the heavens and they will be nearly impossible to kill and impossible to chase.

Compare this to any other classes running Magicka builds and you will easily see that something is not entirely right. The only other Magicka builds that have an escape skill are Nightblades, but their Cloak skill is semi-broken and countered by several other skills as well as 40 second Detection potions. Dragon Knights and Templars have some really nice shields (and heals, oh my), but their lack of any escape skills means they will almost always end up dead, whereas Sorcerers will almost always successfully escape.

And no, I don't have a problem with damage shields and/or Bolt Escape per se. They are signature skills and pretty neat at that. It just needs to be toned down a bit.

Erock25

I'm wondering if all of these people saying "Everyone who PVPs know that Sorc is too strong" actually play Sorcs? My guess is no. They are on the outside looking in and do not objectively see what a Sorc can do.

technohic

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Anyone playing PvP can hardly deny that at the moment, Sorcerers are simply too strong. All a Sorcerer has to do is stack Magicka to the heavens and they will be nearly impossible to kill and impossible to chase.

Compare this to any other classes running Magicka builds and you will easily see that something is not entirely right. The only other Magicka builds that have an escape skill are Nightblades, but their Cloak skill is semi-broken and countered by several other skills as well as 40 second Detection potions. Dragon Knights and Templars have some really nice shields (and heals, oh my), but their lack of any escape skills means they will almost always end up dead, whereas Sorcerers will almost always successfully escape.

And no, I don't have a problem with damage shields and/or Bolt Escape per se. They are signature skills and pretty neat at that. It just needs to be toned down a bit.

LOL I have given up on the Templar shield. To get it to even absorb 7k in Cyrodiil now, you have to go at least all health in stat allocation and buff to run around 30k health. Pretty easy to do, but then you kind of hit like a wet noodle. Costs more magicka now to, so while I was still using it a couple days ago, I finally gave up.

Bashev

technohic wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Anyone playing PvP can hardly deny that at the moment, Sorcerers are simply too strong. All a Sorcerer has to do is stack Magicka to the heavens and they will be nearly impossible to kill and impossible to chase.

Compare this to any other classes running Magicka builds and you will easily see that something is not entirely right. The only other Magicka builds that have an escape skill are Nightblades, but their Cloak skill is semi-broken and countered by several other skills as well as 40 second Detection potions. Dragon Knights and Templars have some really nice shields (and heals, oh my), but their lack of any escape skills means they will almost always end up dead, whereas Sorcerers will almost always successfully escape.

And no, I don't have a problem with damage shields and/or Bolt Escape per se. They are signature skills and pretty neat at that. It just needs to be toned down a bit.

LOL I have given up on the Templar shield. To get it to even absorb 7k in Cyrodiil now, you have to go at least all health in stat allocation and buff to run around 30k health. Pretty easy to do, but then you kind of hit like a wet noodle. Costs more magicka now to, so while I was still using it a couple days ago, I finally gave up.

Shields currently are OP only for Sors because they synergize with their magicka and skills. More magicka stronger shields, great mobility, great damage and great off bar heals. NBs are screwed by the potions, otherwise the skill is much better than before. Templars and DKs are screwed by the new mechanics and cannot block forever because every class has a skill that penetrates block. Even that they can be tanky as hell they eventually die.

technohic

Bashev wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Anyone playing PvP can hardly deny that at the moment, Sorcerers are simply too strong. All a Sorcerer has to do is stack Magicka to the heavens and they will be nearly impossible to kill and impossible to chase.

Compare this to any other classes running Magicka builds and you will easily see that something is not entirely right. The only other Magicka builds that have an escape skill are Nightblades, but their Cloak skill is semi-broken and countered by several other skills as well as 40 second Detection potions. Dragon Knights and Templars have some really nice shields (and heals, oh my), but their lack of any escape skills means they will almost always end up dead, whereas Sorcerers will almost always successfully escape.

And no, I don't have a problem with damage shields and/or Bolt Escape per se. They are signature skills and pretty neat at that. It just needs to be toned down a bit.

LOL I have given up on the Templar shield. To get it to even absorb 7k in Cyrodiil now, you have to go at least all health in stat allocation and buff to run around 30k health. Pretty easy to do, but then you kind of hit like a wet noodle. Costs more magicka now to, so while I was still using it a couple days ago, I finally gave up.

Shields currently are OP only for Sors because they synergize with their magicka and skills. More magicka stronger shields, great mobility, great damage and great off bar heals. NBs are screwed by the potions, otherwise the skill is much better than before. Templars and DKs are screwed by the new mechanics and cannot block forever because every class has a skill that penetrates block. Even that they can be tanky as hell they eventually die.

Yeah I understand how the sorcs shield works differently, and I am not really worried about their shields right now and will let people who know them better worry about that. It's just that all shields are getting suggestions for blanket fixes across the board and that last blanket fix is what put the last nail in the coffin for health based shields. So my Templar health based shield in effect costs much more than the sorcs in magicka, but then I have to stack health to even have it be not completely worthless.

Merlin13KAGL

I'm having some serious De Ja Vu, here.

• OP that is effectively what shield acts as. Your physical shield doesn't bleed, and crit-wise, you can't find the weak spot on me (what Crit implies) if you can't get to it.
• The argument that anyone stacking all one stat has extremes, some of which are good, some of which are not, is neither new nor purposeful. Stack health and you have 35k+. You'll have more survivability as a side effect. Stack Stamina, you roll dodge more and hit harder with weapons...
• @Bashev, shield strength goes up with Magicka pool. That''s where it ends. How the heck do shield synergize with Sorc skills??
  • Stronger Shields, yes. Helps compensate for lower Health (See 35k above)
  • Greater mobility?? How exactly does this work?
  • Great damage - again, Stat applies to damage, High Stamina would give a high stamina user higher damage...it's how damage works.
  • Great off bar heals? You mean Restro? The same restro anyone can use, with the same number of attribute points distributable the same way anyone can...
  • NB's/potions? Assume you mean detection potions? Always detected...it's what they do. You now have half as much chance to be seen via Magelight, as only one morph does this now. Also, Mark screws other people, as if they go invis, Mark remains for tracking...
  • Templars and DK's screwed by which new mechanic? What penetrates block? It downs your stamina, it was always supposed to. Same for the remaining two classes too...

Soarin'

Let us note that all the other active defence options apart from shields somehow gimp your ability to also provide steady dps, either by need to use instant cast abilities for blocking or not being able to do anything in the case of dodge rolling.

Also comparatively speaking the amount of magika resource used for damage negated with a shield is much lower than that of a stamina based comparable active skill like blocking or rolling.

Feel free to provide information contrary to this if you can find it.

Bashev

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

I'm having some serious De Ja Vu, here.
Templars and DK's screwed by which new mechanic? What penetrates block? It downs your stamina, it was always ]

Petrify, Streak, Luminous Shards, Feer and Agony all work through block. You will always get CCed.

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

@Bashev, shield strength goes up with Magicka pool. That''s where it ends. How the heck do shield synergize with Sorc skills??

Magicka pool is everything for the Sors class. More magicka means more shields, you do not take damage. More magicka means great dps. You hit very hard (light attack, heavy attakc, skills, ulitmates). More magicka means oh *** I have to bolt escape 10 times in a row to save my life, fill recourses and come back to fight again. I dont speak for a total glass cannot build. Just a normal one with 20-25k HP and rest magicka. If you dont see this synergy you are blind.

Septimus_Magna

nothing2591 wrote: »

sorcs and their shields are broken no point in playing stamina nightblade when sorcs can just shield for 100% of their hp with one press at a button while i have 0 healing.

Lol, you might want to think about draining your opponents stamina so he cant block/break free when feared/get up when he's knocked down and isnt able to recast his shield. Hardened ward only shields for about 10k without any mitigation so it shouldnt take you more than 2 hits to break the shield.

Bashev

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

nothing2591 wrote: »

sorcs and their shields are broken no point in playing stamina nightblade when sorcs can just shield for 100% of their hp with one press at a button while i have 0 healing.

Lol, you might want to think about draining your opponents stamina so he cant block/break free when feared/get up when he's knocked down and isnt able to recast his shield. Hardened ward only shields for about 10k without any mitigation so it shouldnt take you more than 2 hits to break the shield.

Off course you can do this against noobs. Good sors dont block and use damage shields, when you use CC he breaks and he has 8 seconds immunity. During this immunity the stamina is regenerated 4*800. The good sors never stay in mele range and you cannot dps effectively. The good sors is always mobile. If you root the sors he will bolt escape with the roots. If you charge the sors he will bollt escape 2-3 times in a row. You will drain your stamina and he will kill you. The good sors casts halalling ward on low health and bolt escapes. He comes back with full health and full shields.