Wrecking Blow impossible to bash/interrupt

technohic · February 2015

Rook_Master wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

McDoogs wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

McDoogs wrote: »

I think a lot of people are caught up in the 1.5 pvp meta of permablocking and aren't used to reacting quickly to an opponent (because in the current meta, holding down block basically counters everything). We all need to L2P again.

If you want to permablock in 1.5 and still play on a high level you have to build for it. Otherwise you'll get stomped by any decent player as 1.5 is much more a resource game than 1.6.
It is not that easy to chain attacks in 1.6 with Wrecking Blow as it sounds, but that doesn't mean it's risk vs reward.
Risk should come from the melee range and it will, the reason why we see people claim it's OP is because there is mostly dueling on PTS.
In larger scale battles it will not be OP , but in 1v1 and small scale it will be fotm.
A possible solution was already mentioned, make Wrecking Blow interruptable and not bash interrupts not interrupt melee range casts (including things like Deep Breath, it sounds unbalanced to let someone interrupt everyone using melee range cast time skills with a PBAoE).

You speak as though building a effective perma-blocking 1vX build is a closely guarded secret....

I said you'd get stomped by any decent player and you can't do 1vX against decent players.
Therefore I see no problem in such builds as it's obviously players who are lacking basic game mechanics that you can 1vX, balancing around unskilled players will just give those who can actually play the builds, that bad players can not, godlike powers.

1vX is ridiculous, and the fact that such builds exist is only indicative of the imbalanced nature of certain abilities.

When it takes 10+ people 30 seconds or more to kill a single DK in the field, something is wrong.

Meh. I thought that at first but I will carry eclipse often for these guys as a lot of them rely on reflective scales to negate range and are really far superior to most classes in a melee scrum. You take down their range defense and they become hilariously in a bad spot.

Rook_Master · February 2015

ToRelax wrote: »

Rook_Master wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

McDoogs wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

McDoogs wrote: »

I think a lot of people are caught up in the 1.5 pvp meta of permablocking and aren't used to reacting quickly to an opponent (because in the current meta, holding down block basically counters everything). We all need to L2P again.

If you want to permablock in 1.5 and still play on a high level you have to build for it. Otherwise you'll get stomped by any decent player as 1.5 is much more a resource game than 1.6.
It is not that easy to chain attacks in 1.6 with Wrecking Blow as it sounds, but that doesn't mean it's risk vs reward.
Risk should come from the melee range and it will, the reason why we see people claim it's OP is because there is mostly dueling on PTS.
In larger scale battles it will not be OP , but in 1v1 and small scale it will be fotm.
A possible solution was already mentioned, make Wrecking Blow interruptable and not bash interrupts not interrupt melee range casts (including things like Deep Breath, it sounds unbalanced to let someone interrupt everyone using melee range cast time skills with a PBAoE).

You speak as though building a effective perma-blocking 1vX build is a closely guarded secret....

I said you'd get stomped by any decent player and you can't do 1vX against decent players.
Therefore I see no problem in such builds as it's obviously players who are lacking basic game mechanics that you can 1vX, balancing around unskilled players will just give those who can actually play the builds, that bad players can not, godlike powers.

1vX is ridiculous, and the fact that such builds exist is only indicative of the imbalanced nature of certain abilities.

When it takes 10+ people 30 seconds or more to kill a single DK in the field, something is wrong.

You can not 1vX against good players, whatever your class is.

I don't say balance is perfect - it may in fact be very flawed - but if it takes 10+ people 30 seconds or more to kill a single DK in the field, something is wrong with those people (or the DK is emp).

So call it 1vNoobs then.

ToRelax · February 2015

Rook_Master wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Rook_Master wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

McDoogs wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

McDoogs wrote: »

I think a lot of people are caught up in the 1.5 pvp meta of permablocking and aren't used to reacting quickly to an opponent (because in the current meta, holding down block basically counters everything). We all need to L2P again.

If you want to permablock in 1.5 and still play on a high level you have to build for it. Otherwise you'll get stomped by any decent player as 1.5 is much more a resource game than 1.6.
It is not that easy to chain attacks in 1.6 with Wrecking Blow as it sounds, but that doesn't mean it's risk vs reward.
Risk should come from the melee range and it will, the reason why we see people claim it's OP is because there is mostly dueling on PTS.
In larger scale battles it will not be OP , but in 1v1 and small scale it will be fotm.
A possible solution was already mentioned, make Wrecking Blow interruptable and not bash interrupts not interrupt melee range casts (including things like Deep Breath, it sounds unbalanced to let someone interrupt everyone using melee range cast time skills with a PBAoE).

You speak as though building a effective perma-blocking 1vX build is a closely guarded secret....

I said you'd get stomped by any decent player and you can't do 1vX against decent players.
Therefore I see no problem in such builds as it's obviously players who are lacking basic game mechanics that you can 1vX, balancing around unskilled players will just give those who can actually play the builds, that bad players can not, godlike powers.

1vX is ridiculous, and the fact that such builds exist is only indicative of the imbalanced nature of certain abilities.

When it takes 10+ people 30 seconds or more to kill a single DK in the field, something is wrong.

You can not 1vX against good players, whatever your class is.

I don't say balance is perfect - it may in fact be very flawed - but if it takes 10+ people 30 seconds or more to kill a single DK in the field, something is wrong with those people (or the DK is emp).

So call it 1vNoobs then.

If you want, makes no difference. Many people, including me, enjoy killing many "noobs" alone, at least as long as it's not the only thing we can do in PvP.

madangrypally · February 2015

[quote="Dredlord;1588268"

1. not so simple. most 2h users also have stampede and momentum on the bar too meaning you are always snared and they never are...
2. dodge is more expensive than wrecking blow - guess who wins?
3. cool story bro, sounds like some fun gameplay while i wait for him run low on stam and go for a heavy attack...oh wait those are uninterruptable too?
4. wow you may be on to something - at least you admitted you didn't test this one unlike the first 3
[/quote]

I have played and used 2h on live for one of my PvP builds and have even used Uppercut in PvP probably more then most on here. I have also tested upper cut on PTS and what is happening on PTS wont reflect the actual situation once it goes live. I have also tested 1, 2 and 3 and I was able to avoid Uppercut a good portion of the time without "draining my stamina".

PTS PvP meta has shifted away from the current live meta but as soon as Update 6 hits live there will be yet another meta shift. Dueling is not a good indicator of what cyodill is actually like unless all you do is duel.

More info:

Now let me elaborate more on my early post about the counters:

1: Simply move away. Can get out of melee range or move out of the front of the caster. The target must be in melee range as well as in front of caster to connect the damage. There is no player collision in PvP so simply moving through them will normally work. I would still hold block if you can not survive the attack though without it. I normally do this anyway.

2: Dodge roll away. This is the most costly of counters. Base cost is: 3591 per dodge roll. This is the base cost no matter how much stamina a player has. This number can be reduced but it is the most costly of counters unless built for dodge.

3: Block. IMO these hard hitting attacks are the ones that should be blocked. Blocking everything is just poor stamina management.

Block Cost: The base block cost with no block cost reduction is 2160 Stamina for VR14. This means someone at 9,000 stamina will spend 2160 per block and someone with 20,000 stamina will also spend 2160 per block cost.

4: Spiked Bone Shield: I want to test this to see if it returns all melee based damage including weapon abilities like Wrecking blow. If so this is a great counter against 2-hand builds. There are other damage shields that can absorb the damage as well though only Spiked Shield and Blazing Shield will return some of that damage back to the attack.

Uppercut seems to connect once the animation reaches its lowest point on the pull back which is right before it is brought forward. This is also the point where it can be animation canceled.

P.S: I do not plan on running a Uppercut on any of my bars with any of my characters. Once the meta again shifts on Live after the update I will look at my builds gain to see about changes but its unlikely uppercut will be on them. My sorcerer will be magicka based for example. Even as a magicka based sorcerer I wont be neglecting my survivablity. My sorcerer has its own counters against uppercut that differ slightly from the above as I am primarily ranged with burst melee moments.

sabresandiego_ESO · February 2015

You have to really suck to complain about this ability. Its both melee range and casted. When it was bashable it was an unusable ability against anyone competant enough to bash or spam crushing shock or venom arrow. When it was interruptable people could just hold block and spam bash and you would never be able to use wrecking blow and die while doing it.

All melee abilities are designed to be uninterruptable because they already have the disadvantage of being melee. Wrecking blow has a cast time on top of being melee. All melee heavy attacks and chaneled abilities are uninterruptable as well. Imagine if you could interrupt biting jabs or flurry...

That being said, wrecking blow is now a very good ability for single target damage. It still has lots of counters, primarily movement, mobility, rolling and to a lesser degree blocking.

It is pretty good in dueling against most players, but definitely not as good as hard hitting instant cast abilities. The ability is in a good spot now.

Rook_Master · February 2015

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

You have to really suck to complain about this ability. Its both melee range and casted. When it was bashable it was an unusable ability against anyone competant enough to bash or spam crushing shock or venom arrow. When it was interruptable people could just hold block and spam bash and you would never be able to use wrecking blow and die while doing it.

All melee abilities are designed to be uninterruptable because they already have the disadvantage of being melee. Wrecking blow has a cast time on top of being melee. All melee heavy attacks and chaneled abilities are uninterruptable as well. Imagine if you could interrupt biting jabs or flurry...

That being said, wrecking blow is now a very good ability for single target damage. It still has lots of counters, primarily movement, mobility, rolling and to a lesser degree blocking.

It is pretty good in dueling against most players, but definitely not as good as hard hitting instant cast abilities. The ability is in a good spot now.

OK, now can we please make Jabs uninterruptible?

sabresandiego_ESO · February 2015

jabs is already uninterruptable. All melee cast time or chanelled abilities are uninterruptable.

david.haypreub18_ESO · February 2015

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

jabs is already uninterruptable. All melee cast time or chanelled abilities are uninterruptable.

What? Do you mean on 1.6.4?

It is definitely interruptable on live.

technohic · February 2015

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

jabs is already uninterruptable. All melee cast time or chanelled abilities are uninterruptable.

What? Do you mean on 1.6.4?

It is definitely interruptable on live.

Interruptable by venom arrow, bash and that sort of thing, or do you mean KB. Didn't think it was straight interruptable.

david.haypreub18_ESO · February 2015

technohic wrote: »

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

jabs is already uninterruptable. All melee cast time or chanelled abilities are uninterruptable.

What? Do you mean on 1.6.4?

It is definitely interruptable on live.

Interruptable by venom arrow, bash and that sort of thing, or do you mean KB. Didn't think it was straight interruptable.

I think you have a different definition of 'uninterruptable' than most people on these boards. If you can interrupt it with a bash, it is interruptable.

technohic · February 2015

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

jabs is already uninterruptable. All melee cast time or chanelled abilities are uninterruptable.

What? Do you mean on 1.6.4?

It is definitely interruptable on live.

Interruptable by venom arrow, bash and that sort of thing, or do you mean KB. Didn't think it was straight interruptable.

I think you have a different definition of 'uninterruptable' than most people on these boards. If you can interrupt it with a bash, it is interruptable.

I actually have bash in there with venom arrow so I do call that an interrupt. What I am saying is I didn't know bash (right mouse then left mouse button) and venom arrow or the likes would interrupt it. Power bash, the active stun in 1h/shield and other stuns I figured would.

madangrypally · February 2015

I am in favor of making Biting Jabs uninterrupted as well as removing the knockback and replacing it with a large snare. I actually think with flurry and uppercut being uninterruptable that its only fair to make other melee range cast/channel abilities also be uniterruptable.

Cody · February 2015

yall are making it hard to keep to my vow on my sig....

melee DPS currently is lower than ranged DPS(yes that is true, just play and pay attention) melee players need some kind of power skill to keep them competitive. I myself have always found being interrupted while using WB at point blank by a crushing shock spammer outrageous; if i can close the gap, I SHOULD be able to cause tons of damage and keep you on your toes; ESPECIALLY if you are a LA staff user or a MA/LA bow user. You want to avoid WB? then stay out of range, roll dodge, use CCs and knockbacks; there are plenty of ways to avoid WB besides bashing it. In fact, the cast time is quick, and only those with the fastest of reflexes can interrupt it in the first place. I myself never tried to bash it, as that is very risky and if I am 0.1 second off, I find myself on my back with 1/4 of my health gone.

Tankqull · February 2015

Cody wrote: »

yall are making it hard to keep to my vow on my sig....

melee DPS currently is lower than ranged DPS(yes that is true, just play and pay attention) melee players need some kind of power skill to keep them competitive. I myself have always found being interrupted while using WB at point blank by a crushing shock spammer outrageous; if i can close the gap, I SHOULD be able to cause tons of damage and keep you on your toes; ESPECIALLY if you are a LA staff user or a MA/LA bow user. You want to avoid WB? then stay out of range, roll dodge, use CCs and knockbacks; there are plenty of ways to avoid WB besides bashing it. In fact, the cast time is quick, and only those with the fastest of reflexes can interrupt it in the first place. I myself never tried to bash it, as that is very risky and if I am 0.1 second off, I find myself on my back with 1/4 of my health gone.

LOL

Gravord · February 2015

Mass hysteria, sorc roots/

Cody wrote: »

if i can close the gap

2 classes have charge to target, 1 have teleport anywhere and 1 have pull, 2 of 3 melee weapons have charge. So hard to close the gap...

Attorneyatlawl · February 2015

Dodge roll, block, root as you move out of range, or stun them, or put up an absorb bubble. It's easy enough to deal with playing as you normally would, anyway still... I can't remember the last time I went out of my way to try to bash someone from their cast doing uppercut and its morphs. Same is true of pts even if you could. It was a needed change to give the skills a bit more usability versus casters who use crushing shock as a main nuke, venom arrow archers, etc.

Attorneyatlawl · February 2015

madangrypally wrote: »

I am in favor of making Biting Jabs uninterrupted as well as removing the knockback and replacing it with a large snare. I actually think with flurry and uppercut being uninterruptable that its only fair to make other melee range cast/channel abilities also be uniterruptable.

Gotta agree with you there. Would both help balance it out in terms of casting, and annoyance factor from the knockback on both ends.

glak · February 2015

Gravord wrote: »

Mass hysteria, sorc roots/

Cody wrote: »

if i can close the gap

2 classes have charge to target, 1 have teleport anywhere and 1 have pull, 2 of 3 melee weapons have charge. So hard to close the gap...

one class doesn't use its charge because it is a self-stun.

kelly.medleyb14_ESO · February 2015

Just move away from it, it's easy.

Sharee · February 2015

technohic wrote: »

McDoogs wrote: »

Just move into the guy winding up a WB. Works every time. Still WB is just fine on live, it didn't need buffing.

They just will stampede to root you, then WB.

Stampede does not root.

McDoogs · February 2015

kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »

Just move away from it, it's easy.

yeah, move away or through the caster.

I really think it's a L2P 1.6 issue. Right now in 1.5 uppercut is largely countered just by the permablocking meta (why channel a melee cast for ~100 dmg, am i right?) as well as being interruptable. Hopefully though the sheer number of easy-mode 1vX permablocking builds will be alleviated and people will have to learn/re-learn how to actually move aourn intelligently in combat

Varicite · February 2015

Sharee wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

McDoogs wrote: »

Just move into the guy winding up a WB. Works every time. Still WB is just fine on live, it didn't need buffing.

They just will stampede to root you, then WB.

Stampede does not root.

Beat me to it. : /

Sheuib · February 2015

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Its a good change. There are too many stuns and interrupts flying through the air from ranged users who have the luxury of being at a distance when they cast or channel.

If you are in the thick of things swinging a greatsword, you should be able to do so without interrupts, if you cant eat a greatsword blow, get out of the way.

If we had collision and friendly melee could keep enemy melee away from ranged players, or if there were no gap closers I would agree. But, since there is no collision and there are gap closers there is no safe ranged player.

Now I just wanted to make that point clear about no safe ranged players. I really don't care that wrecking blow cannot be interrupted. Like many people have pointed out you can avoid it. Heck with no collision you can probably just run through the person to be behind him to avoid it and you don't even have to use stamina to do that.

madangrypally · February 2015

Sheuib wrote: »

Heck with no collision you can probably just run through the person to be behind him to avoid it and you don't even have to use stamina to do that.

This is actually the best way to avoid it. Uppercut requires the player to be in melee range and in front of user. Simple staying close and as soon as it looks like he is casting it then run through the user.

Cody · February 2015

Gravord wrote: »

Mass hysteria, sorc roots/

Cody wrote: »

if i can close the gap

2 classes have charge to target, 1 have teleport anywhere and 1 have pull, 2 of 3 melee weapons have charge. So hard to close the gap...

if it really is hard to close the gap, then melee users have even more of a reason to have uninterrupted melee abilities. Do you have any idea how ridiculous it is to be interrupted at point blank by a crushing shock or venom arrow spammer, after i closed that gap(taking into account all the knockbacks and all that crap)? this is giving ranged players an undeserved and really unfair advantage against melee players; i myself am glad this change is coming.

TheBull · February 2015

Great skill, just a bit too high dmg on pts. It could stand a 10-15% shave imo. I just don't want to see 80% of people feeling they need to use it. This is what we are seeing on PTS atm.

Maybe buff DW Flurry?

Fatalyis · February 2015

TheBull wrote: »

Great skill, just a bit too high dmg on pts. It could stand a 10-15% shave imo. I just don't want to see 80% of people feeling they need to use it. This is what we are seeing on PTS atm.

Maybe buff DW Flurry?

Definitely agree with this. I enjoy 2H, but I would much rather use DW. Me, personally, I'll use DW no matter what....but for those who feel they always need to be the best of the best (looking at all of you who re-rolled DK

) they shouldn't be pigeonholed into using 2H just because it spits out some pretty insane numbers. I'd like to see the damage toned down on WB as well.

technohic · February 2015

Sharee wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

McDoogs wrote: »

Just move into the guy winding up a WB. Works every time. Still WB is just fine on live, it didn't need buffing.

They just will stampede to root you, then WB.

Stampede does not root.

Serves me right getting old information.