Wrecking Blow impossible to bash/interrupt

Gravord

Any of the defenders of WB being interruptable wanna join me today on PTS and show me how to counter that in melee combat?

Armitas

Block needs to actually work against it before they let it be uninterruptible.

Besides stopping shards, what does interrupt actually do now in pvp?

ToRelax

Armitas wrote: »

Block needs to actually work against it before they let it be uninterruptible.

Besides stopping shards, what does interrupt actually do now in pvp?

Interrupt Magicka Detonation, Dark Flare, Lethal Arrow, Soul Assault, Radiant Destruction, occasionally Winged Twilights...

Soulac

If uppercut wouldn't knock me out of cloak nearly every time I wouldn't complain about it, but.. cloak you know?

There is actually no counter against this skill and it deals great dmg, stuns etc.
You can move around, but same for the enemy. It's not like it's instantly interrupts itself and 1 Second isn't that long.
Block is not a counter, it will just increase the time to kill..

Well it's not like you don't already see every second player with a 2handed.

Cinbri

Don't see problem in impossibility to bash/interrupt Blow, but i see another HUGE problem in it - in 1.5 you can notice that cc apply on you on half of Blow animation, before sword hits you and if you didn't block/dodge in the beginning of animation you won't be able to block it later; so now people abusing animation cancelling. People i met on pts just cancelling Blow on half of it charge, so it strike almost instant with crazy speed. FIX IT

Mumyo

timidobserver wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

Give me uninterruptible crystal shards and we can call it even.

I am okay with morphing crystal shards into an uninterruptable melee range ability. However, I suspect that this would just result in more Sorc crying.,

AHAHHAHAH melee range ability, uninterruptable.

Made my day

Ffastyl

madangrypally wrote: »

1. Simply move away. If out of melee range it wont connect but still cost the attackers stamina.
2. Dodge roll away.
3. Block. IMO these hard hitting attacks are the ones that should be blocked. Blocking everything is just poor stamina management.
4. Spiked Bone Shield: I want to test this to see if it returns all melee based damage including weapon abilities like Wrecking blow. If so this is a great counter against 2-hand builds.

Many players have no experience with trying to use Wrecking Blow in PvP, and are in for a surprise. Its not as easy to connect as most are assuming. It requires melee ranged and a cast time.

I see many players trying the Wrecking Blow build and finding they miss more attacks then they connect and thus switch to something else. Skilled players will do much better with the build but it still comes with problems.

Skilled players will likely be able to counter Wrecking Blow pretty easily.

As a veteran of Wrecking Blow, both using it and fighting it, I can say @madangrypally is right. Wrecking Blow has a "cone" your target needs to stay in for the entire cast time to connect; to evade one simply needs to step outside the 7m range or hug the caster and circle him/her, thus leaving the "cone." Those using Wrecking Blow need to keep the target at arm's length and almost dead center in front to connect. The amount of movement which occurs during skirmishes makes Wrecking Blow difficult to aim without a grasp on your target's movement patterns.

Blocking is also effective against Wrecking Blow. The majority of Wrecking Blow's effects, including damage, are mitigated by a block. Having dueled fellow Uppercutters, the stamina drain from blocking is not tremendous when using 5+ Heavy Armor and a Shield (assuming all passives maxed).

Also, the mention of stamina regenerating faster than the cost... that is a result of having maxed out Mooncalf and Warlord in CS and likely the use of full medium armor and regen/cost reduction effects. A normal player cannot regenerate the cost of two Wrecking Blows every tick.

Wrecking Blow lives up to its name when it lands, but it is easier to miss.

XEVENEX

I just tested this with a friend for like 30 minutes. You can not run out of range in time or circle around the caster like the Wrecking Blow spammers want you to believe. With less than 50 ping (awesome) you only have a split second to react. It just doesnt work, even if you preempt it. The only thing you can do is dodge roll, block, or cc them first.

This skill is op and you can believe it's going to live like this. Prepare for Wrecking Blow Online.

Varicite

What's wrong w/ dodge rolling, blocking, CC'ing them, or shielding yourself?

Recremen

I like the improvement, it may make 2-hand actually competitive in PvP. Right now 2-hand has zero goof AoE (at least in my experience, and compared to other AoE in the game). Giving it good single-target means I might be able to do large-group PvP with it and still be useful to my team. AoE is great, but singling out a problem enemy and ruining their day is a valuable asset. I'd like to see where this goes before I get told to put another sword in my hand and spam whirlwind.

XEVENEX

Whats wrong with hard hitting cast time cc's being interruptable? Im not personally too concerned about it but I can see why some people are, and I honestly dont want it to be Wrecking Blow online. That would be really lame.

Fatalyis

XEVENEX wrote: »

Whats wrong with hard hitting cast time cc's being interruptable? Im not personally too concerned about it but I can see why some people are, and I honestly dont want it to be Wrecking Blow online. That would be really lame.

I'd be okay with it, considering I've had to deal with Talonspam Online for the last year.

Dredlord

madangrypally wrote: »

1. Simply move away. If out of melee range it wont connect but still cost the attackers stamina.
2. Dodge roll away.
3. Block. IMO these hard hitting attacks are the ones that should be blocked. Blocking everything is just poor stamina management.
4. Spiked Bone Shield: I want to test this to see if it returns all melee based damage including weapon abilities like Wrecking blow. If so this is a great counter against 2-hand builds.

Many players have no experience with trying to use Wrecking Blow in PvP, and are in for a surprise. Its not as easy to connect as most are assuming. It requires melee ranged and a cast time.

I see many players trying the Wrecking Blow build and finding they miss more attacks then they connect and thus switch to something else. Skilled players will do much better with the build but it still comes with problems.

Skilled players will likely be able to counter Wrecking Blow pretty easily.

ah it was a good try though....if they had just that one ability on their bar.

1. not so simple. most 2h users also have stampede and momentum on the bar too meaning you are always snared and they never are...
2. dodge is more expensive than wrecking blow - guess who wins?
3. cool story bro, sounds like some fun gameplay while i wait for him run low on stam and go for a heavy attack...oh wait those are uninterruptable too?
4. wow you may be on to something - at least you admitted you didn't test this one unlike the first 3

If the problem so often cited was crushing shock and poison arrow interupts then maybe fix those instead making bash near useless and removing balanced counterplay.

Perhaps make ranged interrupts only interrupt other ranged skills? OMFG it was really just that easy

Wheres the same logic for biting jabs? an all round shittier skill than wrecking blow...surely it needed further nurfing

less damage
costs more
way less cc - a fraction of a second compared to 3.5 seconds
both have cast time and slow you yet wrecking blow is uninterruptable

the devs have made so many changes it's pretty clear they haven't had time to think most of them through.

XEVENEX

Dredlord wrote: »

madangrypally wrote: »

1. Simply move away. If out of melee range it wont connect but still cost the attackers stamina.
2. Dodge roll away.
3. Block. IMO these hard hitting attacks are the ones that should be blocked. Blocking everything is just poor stamina management.
4. Spiked Bone Shield: I want to test this to see if it returns all melee based damage including weapon abilities like Wrecking blow. If so this is a great counter against 2-hand builds.

Many players have no experience with trying to use Wrecking Blow in PvP, and are in for a surprise. Its not as easy to connect as most are assuming. It requires melee ranged and a cast time.

I see many players trying the Wrecking Blow build and finding they miss more attacks then they connect and thus switch to something else. Skilled players will do much better with the build but it still comes with problems.

Skilled players will likely be able to counter Wrecking Blow pretty easily.

ah it was a good try though....if they had just that one ability on their bar.

1. not so simple. most 2h users also have stampede and momentum on the bar too meaning you are always snared and they never are...
2. dodge is more expensive than wrecking blow - guess who wins?
3. cool story bro, sounds like some fun gameplay while i wait for him run low on stam and go for a heavy attack...oh wait those are uninterruptable too?
4. wow you may be on to something - at least you admitted you didn't test this one unlike the first 3

If the problem so often cited was crushing shock and poison arrow interupts then maybe fix those instead making bash near useless and removing balanced counterplay.

Perhaps make ranged interrupts only interrupt other ranged skills? OMFG it was really just that easy

Wheres the same logic for biting jabs? an all round shittier skill than wrecking blow...surely it needed further nurfing

less damage
costs more
way less cc - a fraction of a second compared to 3.5 seconds
both have cast time and slow you yet wrecking blow is uninterruptable

the devs have made so many changes it's pretty clear they haven't had time to think most of them through.

Brilliant post. I don't mean anything personal, but the combat team has been making some really poor decisions to put it mildly. I honestly don't think they even undersand what it is that they are doing most of the time. Crushing Shock and Poison Arrow ARE the problem, not Wrecking Blow, so what do they do? They nerf the WRONG part of crushing shock and buff Wrecking Blow, ignoring the absurd range of bow users. Your solution was spot on. A counter to ranged casting spam should not counter close range casting spam, as it already has a counter in bash, or once did.

I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt, but I can only speculate. It seems an exhausted team has lost their passion and reason, likely due to ridiculous schedules placed upon them by the people holding the money.

I want to believe that they, as any good combat designers would, wanted 1.6 to be the polished system that they had set out to build, but completely failed due unrealistic schedules. Unfortunately the people sitting on the board of directors, including Donald Trump's brother (no I'm not kidding) may be right. It matters not if the game is actually good or if the current player base is actually happy. Skyrim sold over 20 million copies (do the math), and there are millions of nerds out there with shiny new consoles and not much to play on them yet. They are going to ride Skyrim's coat tails all the way to the bank, broken combat system or not.

Gravord

Gravord wrote: »

Any of the defenders of WB being interruptable wanna join me today on PTS and show me how to counter that in melee combat?

Renewing offer for today and weekend.

McDoogs

Just move into the guy winding up a WB. Works every time. Still WB is just fine on live, it didn't need buffing.

WhiskyBob

Animation for wrecking blow is very long. Dodge-rolling at any point between animation start and execution will save your butt. Also blocking disables the CC. I am more worried bout brawler shield stacking.

Besides, wrecking blow leaves you exposed, if you see someone using it just send him a stonefist of love.

ToRelax

WhiskyBob wrote: »

Animation for wrecking blow is very long. Dodge-rolling at any point between animation start and execution will save your butt. Also blocking disables the CC. I am more worried bout brawler shield stacking.

Besides, wrecking blow leaves you exposed, if you see someone using it just send him a stonefist of love.

Animation for wrecking blow is very short. Dodge-rollng at any point between animation start and execution costs way more stamina than the wrecking blow. Also blocking it costs a lot of stamina, again unlike wrecking blow. Brawler is strong and maybe overpowered, but the shield does not stack with itself and if you hit enough targets to make it a great shield, you don't have time to use another shield.

Besides, wrecking blow is way better cc than stonefist, he'll cc break and just go on, whereas if you try that, you loose a tiny bit of time, enough to use an instant attack wich you can not block or avoid.

TheBull

I heard someone on pts say "Wrecking Blow Online".

McDoogs

I think a lot of people are caught up in the 1.5 pvp meta of permablocking and aren't used to reacting quickly to an opponent (because in the current meta, holding down block basically counters everything). We all need to L2P again.

ToRelax

McDoogs wrote: »

I think a lot of people are caught up in the 1.5 pvp meta of permablocking and aren't used to reacting quickly to an opponent (because in the current meta, holding down block basically counters everything). We all need to L2P again.

If you want to permablock in 1.5 and still play on a high level you have to build for it. Otherwise you'll get stomped by any decent player as 1.5 is much more a resource game than 1.6.
It is not that easy to chain attacks in 1.6 with Wrecking Blow as it sounds, but that doesn't mean it's risk vs reward.
Risk should come from the melee range and it will, the reason why we see people claim it's OP is because there is mostly dueling on PTS.
In larger scale battles it will not be OP , but in 1v1 and small scale it will be fotm.
A possible solution was already mentioned, make Wrecking Blow interruptable and not bash interrupts not interrupt melee range casts (including things like Deep Breath, it sounds unbalanced to let someone interrupt everyone using melee range cast time skills with a PBAoE).

Gargragrond

WhiskyBob wrote: »

Animation for wrecking blow is very long. Dodge-rolling at any point between animation start and execution will save your butt. Also blocking disables the CC. I am more worried bout brawler shield stacking.

Besides, wrecking blow leaves you exposed, if you see someone using it just send him a stonefist of love.

Last time I was playing, it seemed that the wrecking blow hits you long before the animation finishes. If you start blocking/dodging during the animation, you will get hit. Also, if you happen to be swapping weapons when you see wrecking blow starting, you will get hit, as there's a period of time during weapon swap when you can't block. It also hits you with over 10k damage even if you are wearing full heavy armor. It does seem quite strong.

McDoogs

ToRelax wrote: »

McDoogs wrote: »

I think a lot of people are caught up in the 1.5 pvp meta of permablocking and aren't used to reacting quickly to an opponent (because in the current meta, holding down block basically counters everything). We all need to L2P again.

If you want to permablock in 1.5 and still play on a high level you have to build for it. Otherwise you'll get stomped by any decent player as 1.5 is much more a resource game than 1.6.
It is not that easy to chain attacks in 1.6 with Wrecking Blow as it sounds, but that doesn't mean it's risk vs reward.
Risk should come from the melee range and it will, the reason why we see people claim it's OP is because there is mostly dueling on PTS.
In larger scale battles it will not be OP , but in 1v1 and small scale it will be fotm.
A possible solution was already mentioned, make Wrecking Blow interruptable and not bash interrupts not interrupt melee range casts (including things like Deep Breath, it sounds unbalanced to let someone interrupt everyone using melee range cast time skills with a PBAoE).

You speak as though building a effective perma-blocking 1vX build is a closely guarded secret....

TheBull

On a positive note, it's real easy to spot the back peddlers now.

technohic

McDoogs wrote: »

Just move into the guy winding up a WB. Works every time. Still WB is just fine on live, it didn't need buffing.

They just will stampede to root you, then WB. You dodge through them? Stampede again. Repeat until you run out of stamina and you will quicker than they do. Throw in talons and you're even more screwed.

I'm thinking roll dodge is just way too expensive for all the things we are expected to use it to counter. It counters roots, but roots are cheaper. Same with break free and stuns. Break free is a lot more expensive than a stun by an obscene amount. You then get immunity but it also takes some time just to break it to begin with./

Anyway; back on to WB. The one thing I will say to where I am not overly concerned is it really does not provide much in the way of group PvP. You want to go charging in WBing one target while they are all clustered up spaming pulsar, wall of elements, bats, meteor and any other AOE on your group while rooting you all with talons? Good luck!

Rook_Master

technohic wrote: »

McDoogs wrote: »

Just move into the guy winding up a WB. Works every time. Still WB is just fine on live, it didn't need buffing.

They just will stampede to root you, then WB. You dodge through them? Stampede again. Repeat until you run out of stamina and you will quicker than they do. Throw in talons and you're even more screwed.

I'm thinking roll dodge is just way too expensive for all the things we are expected to use it to counter. It counters roots, but roots are cheaper. Same with break free and stuns. Break free is a lot more expensive than a stun by an obscene amount. You then get immunity but it also takes some time just to break it to begin with./

Anyway; back on to WB. The one thing I will say to where I am not overly concerned is it really does not provide much in the way of group PvP. You want to go charging in WBing one target while they are all clustered up spaming pulsar, wall of elements, bats, meteor and any other AOE on your group while rooting you all with talons? Good luck!

This. This is the problem.

Stampede+Talons+WreckingBlow spam = GG

Soulac

McDoogs wrote: »

I think a lot of people are caught up in the 1.5 pvp meta of permablocking and aren't used to reacting quickly to an opponent (because in the current meta, holding down block basically counters everything). We all need to L2P again.

I duel a lot and don't use perma block, I simply hate it.
On live Uppercut is no serious problem cause it's easy interrupted, very easy.
Well you need enough Stamina for these bashes, but all that change with the release of 1.6.
I won't be able to bash it anymore and need to dodge or block, which will run me out of stamina quite soon as Magicka build.
Anyway uppercut costs less than dodge and block and now guess who will run oos first and die?
Ofc you could stop him spamming uppercut by going full offense, but one single hit of the nice two-handed is already deadly.

Even if I think about using cloak I already know that uppercut hits me out of it, mostly at least.

Problem:
There is no single counter against uppercut, cause dodge and block are simply defense abilitys, no counters.
In combination with some nice defense which is easily possible as DK or Templar it's immensely powerful.

Well it's not like I won't find another ways to go against these kind of builds, but I already see half of the player base running two-handed.. Which will end up in pretty boring fights..

ToRelax

McDoogs wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

McDoogs wrote: »

I think a lot of people are caught up in the 1.5 pvp meta of permablocking and aren't used to reacting quickly to an opponent (because in the current meta, holding down block basically counters everything). We all need to L2P again.

If you want to permablock in 1.5 and still play on a high level you have to build for it. Otherwise you'll get stomped by any decent player as 1.5 is much more a resource game than 1.6.
It is not that easy to chain attacks in 1.6 with Wrecking Blow as it sounds, but that doesn't mean it's risk vs reward.
Risk should come from the melee range and it will, the reason why we see people claim it's OP is because there is mostly dueling on PTS.
In larger scale battles it will not be OP , but in 1v1 and small scale it will be fotm.
A possible solution was already mentioned, make Wrecking Blow interruptable and not bash interrupts not interrupt melee range casts (including things like Deep Breath, it sounds unbalanced to let someone interrupt everyone using melee range cast time skills with a PBAoE).

You speak as though building a effective perma-blocking 1vX build is a closely guarded secret....

I said you'd get stomped by any decent player and you can't do 1vX against decent players.
Therefore I see no problem in such builds as it's obviously players who are lacking basic game mechanics that you can 1vX, balancing around unskilled players will just give those who can actually play the builds, that bad players can not, godlike powers.

Rook_Master

ToRelax wrote: »

McDoogs wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

McDoogs wrote: »

I think a lot of people are caught up in the 1.5 pvp meta of permablocking and aren't used to reacting quickly to an opponent (because in the current meta, holding down block basically counters everything). We all need to L2P again.

If you want to permablock in 1.5 and still play on a high level you have to build for it. Otherwise you'll get stomped by any decent player as 1.5 is much more a resource game than 1.6.
It is not that easy to chain attacks in 1.6 with Wrecking Blow as it sounds, but that doesn't mean it's risk vs reward.
Risk should come from the melee range and it will, the reason why we see people claim it's OP is because there is mostly dueling on PTS.
In larger scale battles it will not be OP , but in 1v1 and small scale it will be fotm.
A possible solution was already mentioned, make Wrecking Blow interruptable and not bash interrupts not interrupt melee range casts (including things like Deep Breath, it sounds unbalanced to let someone interrupt everyone using melee range cast time skills with a PBAoE).

You speak as though building a effective perma-blocking 1vX build is a closely guarded secret....

I said you'd get stomped by any decent player and you can't do 1vX against decent players.
Therefore I see no problem in such builds as it's obviously players who are lacking basic game mechanics that you can 1vX, balancing around unskilled players will just give those who can actually play the builds, that bad players can not, godlike powers.

1vX is ridiculous, and the fact that such builds exist is only indicative of the imbalanced nature of certain abilities.

When it takes 10+ people 30 seconds or more to kill a single DK in the field, something is wrong.

ToRelax

Rook_Master wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

McDoogs wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

McDoogs wrote: »

I think a lot of people are caught up in the 1.5 pvp meta of permablocking and aren't used to reacting quickly to an opponent (because in the current meta, holding down block basically counters everything). We all need to L2P again.

If you want to permablock in 1.5 and still play on a high level you have to build for it. Otherwise you'll get stomped by any decent player as 1.5 is much more a resource game than 1.6.
It is not that easy to chain attacks in 1.6 with Wrecking Blow as it sounds, but that doesn't mean it's risk vs reward.
Risk should come from the melee range and it will, the reason why we see people claim it's OP is because there is mostly dueling on PTS.
In larger scale battles it will not be OP , but in 1v1 and small scale it will be fotm.
A possible solution was already mentioned, make Wrecking Blow interruptable and not bash interrupts not interrupt melee range casts (including things like Deep Breath, it sounds unbalanced to let someone interrupt everyone using melee range cast time skills with a PBAoE).

You speak as though building a effective perma-blocking 1vX build is a closely guarded secret....

I said you'd get stomped by any decent player and you can't do 1vX against decent players.
Therefore I see no problem in such builds as it's obviously players who are lacking basic game mechanics that you can 1vX, balancing around unskilled players will just give those who can actually play the builds, that bad players can not, godlike powers.

1vX is ridiculous, and the fact that such builds exist is only indicative of the imbalanced nature of certain abilities.

When it takes 10+ people 30 seconds or more to kill a single DK in the field, something is wrong.

You can not 1vX against good players, whatever your class is.

I don't say balance is perfect - it may in fact be very flawed - but if it takes 10+ people 30 seconds or more to kill a single DK in the field, something is wrong with those people (or the DK is emp).