Vigor. New AvA Skill in 1.6

joshisanonymous

Maldamus wrote: »

Have you ever considered it may just be an amazing incentive to actually increase pvp participation, something that is actually sorely needed, and level 24 alliance rank isn't that incredibly hard to achieve, Christ if I can manage it as a mostly solo, noob pvp Templar healer then I'm sure many better players can with ease.

As is the entire Alliance Rank system, which is meant to take a long time to finish so that there's nearly unlimited incentive to PvP outside of it just being fun. I totally agree. This is also why I think it's ridiculous that people want to have AP be account wide. You're not expected to cap your rank.

It's also strange to me that we have claims ranging from two weeks to a month to practically impossible for how long it takes to get to Rank 24. Even if it took two or three months to get there, who cares? I highly doubt that the skill is so absurdly overpowered that PvP is just unplayable without it considering people play stamina builds and NBs in general right now, so who cares if you have to work a bit to achieve a nice ability? Why should we simply get everything for little effort? And if it really is this amazing must have ability, it should probably be toned down a bit anyway, eh?

Recremen

joshisanonymous wrote: »

As is the entire Alliance Rank system, which is meant to take a long time to finish so that there's nearly unlimited incentive to PvP outside of it just being fun. I totally agree. This is also why I think it's ridiculous that people want to have AP be account wide. You're not expected to cap your rank.

It's also strange to me that we have claims ranging from two weeks to a month to practically impossible for how long it takes to get to Rank 24. Even if it took two or three months to get there, who cares? I highly doubt that the skill is so absurdly overpowered that PvP is just unplayable without it considering people play stamina builds and NBs in general right now, so who cares if you have to work a bit to achieve a nice ability? Why should we simply get everything for little effort? And if it really is this amazing must have ability, it should probably be toned down a bit anyway, eh?

The quotes of "two weeks" to get rank 24 are incredibly misguided, and appear to be guesswork by inexperienced players, which is fine, of course, because everyone's new at some point, but let me put the grim reality into perspective for you.

You need almost 8 million Alliance Points to get to rank 24. Now, AP gain varies greatly based on the groups you're running with and the groups you're fighting, but you probably are going to be getting less than 100,000 a day, unless you stay up for 24 hours and have a constant stream of inexperienced players diving headlong into your Wall of Elements and dancing there for lulz. Still, let's say you get 50k a day, we're going to be optimistic. That's 160 days spent PvPing to get to 8 million AP. And we're not talking "pop on for an hour, gank some bads, and you're set", we're talking long hours every single day.

As far as stamina builds go, they're really not great in PvP right now for organized large-group combat, and even in 1.6 they lack a lot of the tools that a magicka build gets (notably worthwhile heals). This ability will likely make good stamina builds truly competitive (if someone has room on their bar, of course) and weaker stamina builds at least good. That kind of balancing power is great for the "play how you want" tag line that we all desire to be true.

So yeah, it's not so much that we're looking to achieve something with little effort, it's that we don't want to invest time several orders of magnitude greater than that required to get other role-central abilities.

Snit

WolfingHour wrote: »

Having the skill behind a couple of weeks of PvP though, it's not my idea of fun though.

"A couple of weeks of PvP" may be wildly optimistic, unless you are part of an extremely efficient, top-end AP farming team. I think that, for the vast majority of players, this skill is going to be a long-term goal.

If you are thinking that it is at all similar to getting Fighters' Guild rank 10, for example, it really is not

Happily, PvP is pretty awesome here. So, if you enjoy the process -- and you should -- it won't feel like a grind.

david.haypreub18_ESO

Looks a little strong to me... and I'm a stamina build (on my main).

WolfingHour

Snit wrote: »

WolfingHour wrote: »

Having the skill behind a couple of weeks of PvP though, it's not my idea of fun though.

"A couple of weeks of PvP" may be wildly optimistic, unless you are part of an extremely efficient, top-end AP farming team. I think that, for the vast majority of players, this skill is going to be a long-term goal.

If you are thinking that it is at all similar to getting Fighters' Guild rank 10, for example, it really is not

Happily, PvP is pretty awesome here. So, if you enjoy the process -- and you should -- it won't feel like a grind.

Should have been a bit more clear. That was in my case specifically. I already have a couple of rankd from playing PvP to unlock some active skills.

WolfingHour

Recremen wrote: »

joshisanonymous wrote: »

As is the entire Alliance Rank system, which is meant to take a long time to finish so that there's nearly unlimited incentive to PvP outside of it just being fun. I totally agree. This is also why I think it's ridiculous that people want to have AP be account wide. You're not expected to cap your rank.

It's also strange to me that we have claims ranging from two weeks to a month to practically impossible for how long it takes to get to Rank 24. Even if it took two or three months to get there, who cares? I highly doubt that the skill is so absurdly overpowered that PvP is just unplayable without it considering people play stamina builds and NBs in general right now, so who cares if you have to work a bit to achieve a nice ability? Why should we simply get everything for little effort? And if it really is this amazing must have ability, it should probably be toned down a bit anyway, eh?

The quotes of "two weeks" to get rank 24 are incredibly misguided, and appear to be guesswork by inexperienced players, which is fine, of course, because everyone's new at some point, but let me put the grim reality into perspective for you.

You need almost 8 million Alliance Points to get to rank 24. Now, AP gain varies greatly based on the groups you're running with and the groups you're fighting, but you probably are going to be getting less than 100,000 a day, unless you stay up for 24 hours and have a constant stream of inexperienced players diving headlong into your Wall of Elements and dancing there for lulz. Still, let's say you get 50k a day, we're going to be optimistic. That's 160 days spent PvPing to get to 8 million AP. And we're not talking "pop on for an hour, gank some bads, and you're set", we're talking long hours every single day.

As far as stamina builds go, they're really not great in PvP right now for organized large-group combat, and even in 1.6 they lack a lot of the tools that a magicka build gets (notably worthwhile heals). This ability will likely make good stamina builds truly competitive (if someone has room on their bar, of course) and weaker stamina builds at least good. That kind of balancing power is great for the "play how you want" tag line that we all desire to be true.

So yeah, it's not so much that we're looking to achieve something with little effort, it's that we don't want to invest time several orders of magnitude greater than that required to get other role-central abilities.

That's an extremely insightful post. Sad, but insightful.

david.haypreub18_ESO

Recremen wrote: »

The quotes of "two weeks" to get rank 24 are incredibly misguided, and appear to be guesswork by inexperienced players, which is fine, of course, because everyone's new at some point, but let me put the grim reality into perspective for you.

You need almost 8 million Alliance Points to get to rank 24. Now, AP gain varies greatly based on the groups you're running with and the groups you're fighting, but you probably are going to be getting less than 100,000 a day, unless you stay up for 24 hours and have a constant stream of inexperienced players diving headlong into your Wall of Elements and dancing there for lulz. Still, let's say you get 50k a day, we're going to be optimistic. That's 160 days spent PvPing to get to 8 million AP. And we're not talking "pop on for an hour, gank some bads, and you're set", we're talking long hours every single day.

As far as stamina builds go, they're really not great in PvP right now for organized large-group combat, and even in 1.6 they lack a lot of the tools that a magicka build gets (notably worthwhile heals). This ability will likely make good stamina builds truly competitive (if someone has room on their bar, of course) and weaker stamina builds at least good. That kind of balancing power is great for the "play how you want" tag line that we all desire to be true.

So yeah, it's not so much that we're looking to achieve something with little effort, it's that we don't want to invest time several orders of magnitude greater than that required to get other role-central abilities.

That does really put it into perspective. Rank 24 seems ridiculously high to me now.

timidobserver

Eh, there is already a ton of other skills in the game that have little to no requirements. I think it is okay to place 1 or 2 skills in the game with steep requirements for the high-end PvPer.

Also, I am glad that the average PVE player won't have this skill. I won't have to worry about a Stam Nightblade insisting that they can primary heal a trial using this skill.

sabresandiego_ESO

timidobserver wrote: »

Eh, there is already a ton of other skills in the game that have little to no requirements. I think it is okay to place 1 or 2 skills in the game with steep requirements for the high-end PvPer.

Also, I am glad that the average PVE player won't have this skill. I won't have to worry about a Stam Nightblade insisting that they can primary heal a trial using this skill.

You technically could primary heal with vigor, its a great heal. It definitely deserves its spot in alliance war rank 10, just for how good it is. I dont want to see it nerfed. But the grind is unreasonable.

In addition to making alliance war 10 either easier to get or account wide, they need to add aoe healing debuffs into the game.

Sacadon

olsborg wrote: »

Requires rank 10, wich imo is way too high, new characters made because stamina builds can now heal more reliably will have to play the game for weeks before they unlock this and incorporate it into the build. It would be better imo if it had rank 5 or 6.

The good stuff should require dedication. Weeks is very fast IMO. However, not sure this is one that is worthy of such effort. There needs to be much more carrot for higher ranks.

SanderBuraas

How come people are reacting negatively to this skill? Stamina builds finally receive a heal, and the magicka users are infuriated? Did you forget that stamina users actually draw from the same resource pool when using skills, rolling, sneaking, cc breaking, blocking and sprinting? Get out of here.

Stamina builds should not have to rely on the tiny heal from the two-handed skill tree, which by the way is a secondary effect on the skill. Vigor should be more accessible, and the alliance rank needed should be significantly lowered.

WolfingHour

timidobserver wrote: »

Eh, there is already a ton of other skills in the game that have little to no requirements. I think it is okay to place 1 or 2 skills in the game with steep requirements for the high-end PvPer.

Also, I am glad that the average PVE player won't have this skill. I won't have to worry about a Stam Nightblade insisting that they can primary heal a trial using this skill.

Why? Why have 1/2/any number of skills with steep requirements?

Skill requirements or ranks are a farce. They don't translate directly into any measure of ability to play whatsoever. They are just in place so that the player has a sense of progression, regardless if that is an effective skill progression (proper rotations to achieve close to maximum dps or responding to the demands of the problem at hand in the battle field) or just a little pat in the back of our egos.

It also perpetuates that idea of "average player", which is necessarily equal to less skills because the number of skills available is a proxy measure of how much time you played and if you played for a long time you are surely mega godlike.

F7sus4

timidobserver wrote: »

Eh, there is already a ton of other skills in the game that have little to no requirements. I think it is okay to place 1 or 2 skills in the game with steep requirements for the high-end PvPer.

Also, I am glad that the average PVE player won't have this skill. I won't have to worry about a Stam Nightblade insisting that they can primary heal a trial using this skill.

The natural question is: What about high-end PvEers then?

TheBull

DDuke wrote: »

TheBull wrote: »

Vigor is cool, but each cast can be erased with a heavy+insert skill. I'm not too concerned about it atm. The current heals in game are stronger.

Not true. Vigor with 37k stamina, 1764 weapon dmg NB template, compared to heals with 47k magicka, 1039 spell dmg sorc template:



The drawback of stamina builds is supposed to be the lack of, or weaker heals/dmg shields, instead we're getting the strongest heal in game (didn't test magicka Templar yet though) & the best DPS (as well as more dmg reduction from medium armour).

You are showing resolving vigor the morph that increases the heal on the caster. As you see springs heals more over 5 seconds to allies than vigor does. Blessing of protection does even more than both.

Vigor is a decent heal, but a magicka user using a restro staff will still heal for significantly more than a stam user spamming vigor. I think it's a bit of a stretch to call vigor "the strongest heal in game".

Imo vigor opens the door for stam users to play a support role.

Emma_Overload

Why are peeps trying to nerf a heal that's going to take me 5 months to get, if I'm lucky? Give stamina sorcs a break!

ToRelax

I am a bit worried about the area heal of Vigor - if it stacks from different players that could be a bit to strong if you have several players using it. We will see about that on live, however, and the Self Heal is not overpowered.

But I really dislike the huge grind that would be connected to the skill if it goes live as it is.

olsborg

I really dont mind there being some kind of "dedicationwall" you have to break through to get Vigor, thats fine. But I pvped for 6 months on my sorc, I didnt farm or anything, I strictly solo or duo pvped and got to AvA rank 10 after 6 months. Now everyone with my playstyle and time to play, this is faaaar too long.

asteldian

I am rank 10 still trying to get caltrops after near a year's play (obviously not much PvP) the requirement for this is nasty.
Its all very well saying some skills should be hard to get, but locking behind heavy PvP when it is a good skill for pve is poor.
It would be like locking skills behind completing hard mode SO. Not something pvpers would want to do

eliisra

DeLindsay wrote: »

I can almost guarantee there isn't a single Dev, or ZoS Employee that is even Alliance Rank 12 for Caltrops on Live. There are many things in this game that make you wonder if they play it AT ALL. For example Eric Wrobel stated the reason for the CS nerf was because he felt it was too strong in PvP since it interrupted on every cast. He has obviously NEVER stepped foot in Cyro because had he done so he'd realize that there are almost NO casted abilities in the game, and of those hardly any used in PvP, save Shards. So he nerfs a main ability for PvE because he's mistaken about how it works in PvP, seems legit.

I'm not to sure the devs PvP either. They probably get most of their feedback and inspiration from social media, watching streams and Youtube videos of expert people "duelling". It's a bit terrifying

The talk about Crushing Shock, points to that conclusion. This isn't a strong skill in PvP, you only encounter it large scale on buff campaigns. Than you get attacked by a massive swarm of PvE'ers in Aether bathrobes and they Crushing Shock like mad, Spell Symmetry and some strict dps rotation for high numbers. Not especially effective against actual players, since you can ignore and tank it indefinitely on live with only Harness Magicka up.

Topic: I dont think any skill should take 5-7 month to obtain for a new player. Doesn't matter what the skills does, if it's bad or good, If it's in PvE or PvP, nothing should be that time consuming. I do have level 10 support on my main, my PvP alt will most likely be level 10 by the time 1.6 goes live. So I'm not saying this to make my own life easier. It's just ridiculous, objectively speaking.

Sotha_Sil

Sacadon wrote: »

The good stuff should require dedication. Weeks is very fast IMO. However, not sure this is one that is worthy of such effort. There needs to be much more carrot for higher ranks.

I agree but bear in mind that we are going to get pvp stuff in update 7 and it will probably be alliance rank 10 too. It's a long wait until then but hopefully it will be worth waiting.

yodased

Well I can tell you from a PvE centric person that it really is a grind to get even to caltrops.

I dropped all pve for a solid month and I ran with whatever group I could get in and solo if there wasn't a group to get rank

Those that are saying just join an OP AP farming group and you can get 100k a day are misleading folks really. Those groups aren't going to pick up randoms that are there for a skill they can use in PVP. They have dedicated people and their raids are almost always full. Maybe, just MAYBE you can grab on the coattails of some of the bigger groups and pull 20-30k in a solid days grinding, but an average pvper simply doesn't have the ability to pull more than that.

At 30k per day that is 266 days of hard pvp grinding for an average player.

Is that too long? I dunno really, but its a lot of pvp for a skill that I don't think alot of pvp people will be using.

DDuke

TheBull wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

TheBull wrote: »

Vigor is cool, but each cast can be erased with a heavy+insert skill. I'm not too concerned about it atm. The current heals in game are stronger.

Not true. Vigor with 37k stamina, 1764 weapon dmg NB template, compared to heals with 47k magicka, 1039 spell dmg sorc template:



The drawback of stamina builds is supposed to be the lack of, or weaker heals/dmg shields, instead we're getting the strongest heal in game (didn't test magicka Templar yet though) & the best DPS (as well as more dmg reduction from medium armour).

You are showing resolving vigor the morph that increases the heal on the caster. As you see springs heals more over 5 seconds to allies than vigor does. Blessing of protection does even more than both.

Vigor is a decent heal, but a magicka user using a restro staff will still heal for significantly more than a stam user spamming vigor. I think it's a bit of a stretch to call vigor "the strongest heal in game".

Imo vigor opens the door for stam users to play a support role.

It does, but at the cost of homogenizing (instead of diversifying) the playstyles.

I would've preferred added survivability to stamina builds in form of evasion, mobility, stealth or dmg mitigation, and added support viability in form of grp buffs for dmg, regen, health etc.

I guess I'd be fine with the heal (even though it makes no sense from RPG/lore perspective) if it only was an option for stamina builds, instead of something you have to slot in order to compete.

Tankqull

F7sus4 wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Eh, there is already a ton of other skills in the game that have little to no requirements. I think it is okay to place 1 or 2 skills in the game with steep requirements for the high-end PvPer.

Also, I am glad that the average PVE player won't have this skill. I won't have to worry about a Stam Nightblade insisting that they can primary heal a trial using this skill.

The natural question is: What about high-end PvEers then?

they have access to pve sets - wich will becomestronger with seasonal gear.

Father

I just hope they don't nerf Vigor I don't care even if ts pvp rank 999999, I want it to stay the same ^_^

TheBull

I don't pve. I will never have one of those 2 pieces sets. It's a choice I've made. I'm ok with it because I choose not to PvE.

Those who choose not to pvp need to understand it's a choice they are making.

yodased

@Thebull I think the point is though; if you did choose to get one of those sets its's possible you could get it in < 1 hour.

More like a few days - a week depending on the RNG gods, but it sure isn't upwards of a year to get some of the best PVP gear in the game from PvE.

The thing is there isn't many skills nor gear (Caltrops and purge aside) from PvP that translate well into PvE, but there sure are a lot of PvE gear and obviously there are no "pve" skills per se.

I think that there needs to be a significant dedication to PvP to get some of the skills there, I just don't know if the average person will ever get them in the current state as they will simply burn out from the amount of time needed an walk away from it.

Maybe thats the design and its something that they only want used by the minority of players, I don't know I don't make the rules.

In before RNG hates me derailment, I get there are some people that have no gotten the shoulders they want for a month or more, but you are the minority. You can farm the heads really easily and the shoulders are being bumped to 2x the drop rate in 1.6.

F7sus4

yodased wrote: »

At 30k per day that is 266 days of hard pvp grinding for an average player.

Is that too long? I dunno really

Yeah, with all the rest of the skill-trees that you can level in a week, these 266 days of PvPing is "just nothing". Now that's an enlightment!

F7sus4

Tankqull wrote: »

they have access to pve sets - wich will become stronger with seasonal gear.

Which in particular? The Trials gear that you can easily get by successfully sneaking into 12-player group even being a terrible PvE player?

TheBull

DDuke wrote: »

TheBull wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

TheBull wrote: »

Vigor is cool, but each cast can be erased with a heavy+insert skill. I'm not too concerned about it atm. The current heals in game are stronger.

Not true. Vigor with 37k stamina, 1764 weapon dmg NB template, compared to heals with 47k magicka, 1039 spell dmg sorc template:



The drawback of stamina builds is supposed to be the lack of, or weaker heals/dmg shields, instead we're getting the strongest heal in game (didn't test magicka Templar yet though) & the best DPS (as well as more dmg reduction from medium armour).

You are showing resolving vigor the morph that increases the heal on the caster. As you see springs heals more over 5 seconds to allies than vigor does. Blessing of protection does even more than both.

Vigor is a decent heal, but a magicka user using a restro staff will still heal for significantly more than a stam user spamming vigor. I think it's a bit of a stretch to call vigor "the strongest heal in game".

Imo vigor opens the door for stam users to play a support role.

It does, but at the cost of homogenizing (instead of diversifying) the playstyles.

I would've preferred added survivability to stamina builds in form of evasion, mobility, stealth or dmg mitigation, and added support viability in form of grp buffs for dmg, regen, health etc.

I guess I'd be fine with the heal (even though it makes no sense from RPG/lore perspective) if it only was an option for stamina builds, instead of something you have to slot in order to compete.

After spending a lot of time on PTS over the last few weeks, I've made three builds only one of which uses vigor. That build is a tank build where I hold block. Even then 2 wrecking blows in 1.6 seconds wipes the heal.

What I found is that it did not hold up in direct combat situations. It was great for healing through dots and to regain health while exiting direct combat. Direct attacks do 7-13k on the regular. They negate vigor's heal with each swing.

I will say that there is possible pause for cause in group situations, but how many stam groups are running out there? If the meta does a complete 180 and all the magicka groups start running stam heavy I could see the stacking becoming an issue. I don't think we are at that point though. We'll have to wait and see.

darkrozes_rob16_ESO

olsborg wrote: »

Requires rank 10, wich imo is way too high, new characters made because stamina builds can now heal more reliably will have to play the game for weeks before they unlock this and incorporate it into the build. It would be better imo if it had rank 5 or 6.

As it would be better if we had a 1 time free race change cupon for all those mana/spell based people, right mate ? Get the hell out ! You want the best, play the game, no one cares