Vigor. New AvA Skill in 1.6

DiktaHasi

yodased wrote: »

...The thing is there isn't many skills nor gear (Caltrops and purge aside) from PvP that translate well into PvE, but there sure are a lot of PvE gear and obviously there are no "pve" skills per se...

i would say, that the Undaunted skill line is pretty much a PvE Skill line that needs a lot of PvE grinding (dungeons, pledges) to unlock the skills/passives.

OT: Although I think that there should be some required rank to unlock Vigor, I would set it to 8 instead of 10.

yodased

Undaunted skill line can be done to level 9 in < 1 month by doing all the dungeons and delves in the game once, then by doing silver/gold dailies every day.

DiktaHasi

True, but anyway there are skills that are locked up until i grind PvE. And as you see i agree that the time to grind things out should be bearable, that is why i supposed to lower it to 8.

Kuro1n

Vigor is in a good place in terms of strength but should be more accessible to players, at least putting it at rank 8 would be a good idea. Having old-timers stomping new guys who want to play the game their way just because they have't spent literally half a year in PVP. Fact is also back in the day it was easier to get AP as there were more 'sheeps' to farm for the strong guys. Nowadays there are less 'sheeps' to farm so you have a lot tougher time getting to the point that is needed.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler‌ @ZOS_GinaBruno‌ @ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌

MrGhosty

I'm all for having a progression of unlocks that require some time investment but AP seems to reward those who cheese the system more than play the objectives. With these new skills coming out I can imagine there will be many just trying to setup farms or do other things that net them the most AP in the quickest way possible, how is that good for PvP?

From all the entries I've read I don't think anyone wants this skill given to them, afterall the battle to earn a skill does make it a little sweeter when you finally get hold of it. I agree that the skill should be reduced to a level that consistent PvPing based on the earn rate of an average PvPer makes this something that is possible for all. Does that mean the more advanced players will have the skill first due to leveling this based around average players? Yep, but they're going to have it one way or the other why not lower the requirements some so everyone has access to it sooner rather than later.

Naivefanboi

DDuke wrote: »

TheBull wrote: »

Vigor is cool, but each cast can be erased with a heavy+insert skill. I'm not too concerned about it atm. The current heals in game are stronger.

Not true. Vigor with 37k stamina, 1764 weapon dmg NB template, compared to heals with 47k magicka, 1039 spell dmg sorc template:



The drawback of stamina builds is supposed to be the lack of, or weaker heals/dmg shields, instead we're getting the strongest heal in game (didn't test magicka Templar yet though) & the best DPS (as well as more dmg reduction from medium armour).

mmm loves me some zos

SickDuck

Rank 24 for non-PvP people is pretty impossible to get. Playing since beta, every day and my highest rank is 7 (yes, you can laugh). It just gives me pain to do PvP. Even getting rank 12 for Caltrops/Barrier could not give me enough motivation to go inside Cyrodiil. You can say that I don't deserve these abilities, and I would agree. But bare in mind the following.

If you are PvE and don't want to participate in PvP you already miss out at least 30-40 skill points over time, as you'll never get to the higher ranks. On live getting rank 12 gives you access to all active skills which is reasonable effort. Now it won't be the case any more. And don't even mention the Emperor skill line...

On the other hand PvPers are in a much better position as each and all PvE skills and skill point giving content can be done in a very short time. Mage, Fighters guilds and even WW and Vampire can be done in a day. Even Undaunted does not take so long, and you get a lot of skill points and now CP along the way.

Making AP gain or skill line account wide does only little help and I agree that it goes against some logic. Getting 8kk AP points still amazingly long time to get compared to anything else, doesn't matter how many alts you throw in.

Don't get me wrong I wouldn't mind having some PvP exclusive skill going around that require determination to achieve, but only ones that purely for PvP.

My DW+Bow stamina NB lacks any heals or damage shields at the moment, so I got quite excited when they announced Vigor. All I dreamt was to get a little survival on my current playstyle. Got a bit worried when they first mentioned AOE (agree, how does that make sense at all - I could make up some justification on stamina self heals, but AOE???) & AvA. Now that I've tested the skill in PTS and know all the details I feel like:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=Qc8yLLhjCoE

ps. Wondering while PvPers are all playing soldiers out there, who takes care of the hinterland? There should be civilian ranks in PvE for players helping to keep the country side clean and prosperous during these hard times. And one day, ZOS could add a mind blasting skill based on these ranks that could only be achieved for people who complete 1000 trials, 5000 quests and 10000 writs. I really wish that... NOT.

Cody

Exstazik wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Requires rank 10, wich imo is way too high, new characters made because stamina builds can now heal more reliably will have to play the game for weeks before they unlock this and incorporate it into the build. It would be better imo if it had rank 5 or 6.

You can use momentum for self heal while not get Vigor.

not everyone uses 2H

Cody

ZOS really needs to tone it down to rank 3 or 5. swap it out for rapid maneuver or another highly situational ability.

It takes people fully dedicated to PvP(meaning lots of free time to play) at least a month to reach this rank. Casual players will likely take 3-5(maybe even 6) months to reach this rank.

As a stamina builder, there are only 2 self heals I have access to. Momentm and vigor. I cant use momentum, as i dont use 2H, and will not waste time leveling 2H just for one skill. Therefore, the only other self heal I have access to is Vigor, which, at this rate, i wont get for the next 4 months, as i do not have time to spend 16-20 hours a day PVPing. and this is just for ONE character, what if i need to get it for other characters too?

I know this upsets the hardcore people, but its time to adhere to us casuals and tone down this rank requirement. Most people in the AR20s wont even need this; heck most people use resto staves or a class based self heal; therefore, only full on stamina builds will even need this heal, and we wont get it for 3-6 months due to the high rank requirement. Tone it down to the 1st or 2nd ability in the tree, and let people who actually NEED it, use it. This would also give low level/new players a chance to contribute to the battles without being forced to use a resto stave.

and no, asigari and panda and everyone else that is going to say this, I am not going to start using a resto staff to get a self heal. I should not have to, I should not be able to heal as well as a resto staff user, but i should be able to play as i want, while still having some kind of sustainability. As a NB stamina build, i have none, and am not leveling up skills and weapons i do not want to use because of a flaw in game design.

Snit

Cody wrote: »

not everyone uses 2H

... yet.

SanderBuraas

Cody wrote: »

ZOS really needs to tone it down to rank 3 or 5. swap it out for rapid maneuver or another highly situational ability.

Agreed. Rapid maneuver is not a required skill for any build. Previously, all stamina users have had to use a two-handed sword skill secondary effect for heal, and now that this new skill is introduced, it should not be hard to obtain.

Iggybot

I'm almost rank 23 and pushing for 24 right around the time 1.6 goes live. Its definitely time consuming to get and from my experiences on pts, very useful ability as a stam build to have. The way it currently is, it's an ability only pvpers will get, it's not something you can really grind for.

The issue is basically whether you agree with the idea that an ability is fairly exclusive to pvpers. Its predominantly useful in pvp as opposed to pve. I don't think it's particularly needed in pve, so I think the important thing is that it doesn't become a needed ability to be successful in pve.

Cody

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Why are peeps trying to nerf a heal that's going to take me 5 months to get, if I'm lucky? Give stamina sorcs a break!

dont forget stamina NBs:)

I have been playing without a self heal for 4 months, and iv been doing truely terrible. I NEED a self heal. Not want, NEED.

Reduce the rank requirement. I don't mind working for stuff (Im taking an AP class for sithis sake i can work for stuff) but putting one of the only two stamina heals at the end of such a long grind that most people possibly wont ever reach the end of, is completely unreasonable.

DeLindsay

Iggybot wrote: »

Its predominantly useful in pvp as opposed to pve. I don't think it's particularly needed in pve, so I think the important thing is that it doesn't become a needed ability to be successful in pve.

I would absolutely use that on my Healer and Tank in PvE, if for nothing else a good Stam dump. But me getting to Rank 24 is going to take forever as I'm primarily PvE. So talking exclusivity of abilities then what's the PvE equivalent to Vigor that PvP'ers will likely never get? The only thing I can think of isn't even an ability, it's the Undaunted Monster Helms/Shoulders that forces PvP'ers to PvE to get.

All_Bizniz

raffai.tamasb16_ESO wrote: »

Rank 24 for non-PvP people is pretty impossible to get. Playing since beta, every day and my highest rank is 7 (yes, you can laugh). It just gives me pain to do PvP. Even getting rank 12 for Caltrops/Barrier could not give me enough motivation to go inside Cyrodiil. You can say that I don't deserve these abilities, and I would agree. But bare in mind the following.

If you are PvE and don't want to participate in PvP you already miss out at least 30-40 skill points over time, as you'll never get to the higher ranks. On live getting rank 12 gives you access to all active skills which is reasonable effort. Now it won't be the case any more. And don't even mention the Emperor skill line...

On the other hand PvPers are in a much better position as each and all PvE skills and skill point giving content can be done in a very short time. Mage, Fighters guilds and even WW and Vampire can be done in a day. Even Undaunted does not take so long, and you get a lot of skill points and now CP along the way.

Making AP gain or skill line account wide does only little help and I agree that it goes against some logic. Getting 8kk AP points still amazingly long time to get compared to anything else, doesn't matter how many alts you throw in.

Don't get me wrong I wouldn't mind having some PvP exclusive skill going around that require determination to achieve, but only ones that purely for PvP.

My DW+Bow stamina NB lacks any heals or damage shields at the moment, so I got quite excited when they announced Vigor. All I dreamt was to get a little survival on my current playstyle. Got a bit worried when they first mentioned AOE (agree, how does that make sense at all - I could make up some justification on stamina self heals, but AOE???) & AvA. Now that I've tested the skill in PTS and know all the details I feel like:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=Qc8yLLhjCoE

ps. Wondering while PvPers are all playing soldiers out there, who takes care of the hinterland? There should be civilian ranks in PvE for players helping to keep the country side clean and prosperous during these hard times. And one day, ZOS could add a mind blasting skill based on these ranks that could only be achieved for people who complete 1000 trials, 5000 quests and 10000 writs. I really wish that... NOT.

Getting the undaunted passives for Non-pve people is impossible to get. same damn difference. You worked to get your rank and i worked hard to get mine... that's why its called grinding

Iggybot

DeLindsay wrote: »

Iggybot wrote: »

Its predominantly useful in pvp as opposed to pve. I don't think it's particularly needed in pve, so I think the important thing is that it doesn't become a needed ability to be successful in pve.

I would absolutely use that on my Healer and Tank in PvE, if for nothing else a good Stam dump. But me getting to Rank 24 is going to take forever as I'm primarily PvE. So talking exclusivity of abilities then what's the PvE equivalent to Vigor that PvP'ers will likely never get? The only thing I can think of isn't even an ability, it's the undaunted Monster Helms/Shoulders that forces PvP'ers to PvE to get.

Can't disagree with anything you said. Can only speak as a stam nb dps. I would like to point out though that bone shield is a stam based damage shield for 30% of your max hp in 1.6, so there are other options.

DeLindsay

Iggybot wrote: »

Can't disagree with anything you said. Can only speak as a stam nb dps. I would like to point out though that bone shield is a stam based damage shield for 30% of your max hp in 1.6, so there are other options.

I already use it, I was stating that I'd use Vigor on top of all that I use now while in PvE. And Bone Surge (the old meh morph) got a healing component to it in 1.6 which is nice.

yodased

All_Bizniz wrote: »

Getting the undaunted passives for Non-pve people is impossible to get. same damn difference. You worked to get your rank and i worked hard to get mine... that's why its called grinding

Wow you can grind out undaunted passives in less than a week and you say they are impossible? They are 'impossible' because you don't want to do dungeons that take <20 minutes to do each.

Iggybot

yodased wrote: »

All_Bizniz wrote: »

Getting the undaunted passives for Non-pve people is impossible to get. same damn difference. You worked to get your rank and i worked hard to get mine... that's why its called grinding

Wow you can grind out undaunted passives in less than a week and you say they are impossible? They are 'impossible' because you don't want to do dungeons that take <20 minutes to do each.

Yeah the undaunted passive are pretty easy to get.

Kuro1n

Honestly not only PVE'ers are complaining about this. I am mainly a PVPer and I really feel how stupid it would be to keep it as it is, just to make sure other PVPers get this. I am not even that casual as I started playing 'recently' and took lv 1 - VR14 in 5 days.

Asgari

It will stay as is. It shouldn't be lowered to appease the casuals. Pvp has been gimped from the start and need some form of incentive to get the PvE baddies to come PVP for a bit before this game has zero pvp left.

sabresandiego_ESO

Rapid maneuvers is actually pretty necessary for a lot of builds, to give them mobility. Caltrops is the skill that is not absolutely necessarry.

olsborg

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

It will stay as is. It shouldn't be lowered to appease the casuals. Pvp has been gimped from the start and need some form of incentive to get the PvE baddies to come PVP for a bit before this game has zero pvp left.

SOME incentive, yes, I agree. But currently the incentive is, "pvp a *** for months and you get what you need to make your intended build.

Maldamus

Really!!, So much whine about 1 skill, that everyone has been able to do w/e they want prior to its inception.As stated before, a lame solo templar healer, who does not play very much due to rl work commitments, has managed alliance rank 24, its not that hard.This is a good incentive for those who 'Feel' that the build that they are running is lacking, surprisingly those same ppl have been able to run their build, within constraints of the system already.100k ap a day is easily acheivable without been elite, without been a master pvper, just realise its a nice a skill, not essential and an addition, if you really feel its essential, get your self motivated, find your busiest campaign for the faction, and get something done, you just may find another enjoyable experience in the game.With rewards commensurate, ie achieveing that skill rank.

yodased

Maldamus wrote: »

100k ap a day is easily acheivable without been elite, without been a master pvper,

Easily?

All_Bizniz

yodased wrote: »

All_Bizniz wrote: »

Getting the undaunted passives for Non-pve people is impossible to get. same damn difference. You worked to get your rank and i worked hard to get mine... that's why its called grinding

Wow you can grind out undaunted passives in less than a week and you say they are impossible? They are 'impossible' because you don't want to do dungeons that take <20 minutes to do each.

^^ LOL I play the game the way i want to play... and the same is said for you. Don't want to grind for the ability? Then don't complain when you don't have it... like i feel about the undaunted passives

Snit

All_Bizniz wrote: »

Getting the undaunted passives for Non-pve people is impossible to get. same damn difference. You worked to get your rank and i worked hard to get mine... that's why its called grinding

With that assumption, you can knock out the Undaunted Passives in a week or three, max. The veteran dungeons are (very) unlikely to be beyond your skill level.

You may not want to do it, if you don't like PvE. But you could. For a typical PvE player, getting Vigor would require at least an order of magnitude more time.

DeLindsay

All_Bizniz wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

All_Bizniz wrote: »

Getting the undaunted passives for Non-pve people is impossible to get. same damn difference. You worked to get your rank and i worked hard to get mine... that's why its called grinding

Wow you can grind out undaunted passives in less than a week and you say they are impossible? They are 'impossible' because you don't want to do dungeons that take <20 minutes to do each.

^^ LOL I play the game the way i want to play... and the same is said for you. Don't want to grind for the ability? Then don't complain when you don't have it... like i feel about the undaunted passives

Ah but there is literally NO WAY to grind out Rank 24 in a week, that's the difference. You can do the Undaunted "grind" just doing the Gold Key each day (nothing more) and still get high enough for all the Passives in a few weeks, the same cannot be said for Rank 24 in PvP. It would take you several weeks of serious hard core PvP'ing with a good group that does nothing but farm D'ticks and the like. That's assuming you could even get it in less than 1 month.

SickDuck

All_Bizniz wrote: »

Getting the undaunted passives for Non-pve people is impossible to get. same damn difference. You worked to get your rank and i worked hard to get mine... that's why its called grinding

Getting Undaunted to level 5 requires about a week to do daily pledges for an hour a day. That gives you access to all active abilities. Add a few hours on the top of that to finish off the remaining normal instances and you're already around level 7. The passives are nice but not life-changer. You get a lot of skill points along the way too which in itself worth the effort.

PvP gives enough reward for participation for the ones who like it. I only don't like the direction where it goes by putting in essential skills for some playstyles that need an endless grind for it. ZOS identified it correctly that some stamina builds need a skill like that for pure survival but put it in the wrong place. (Hell why not Fighters guild?)

Tankqull

olsborg wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

It will stay as is. It shouldn't be lowered to appease the casuals. Pvp has been gimped from the start and need some form of incentive to get the PvE baddies to come PVP for a bit before this game has zero pvp left.

SOME incentive, yes, I agree. But currently the incentive is, "pvp a *** for months and you get what you need to make your intended build.

the skill is not necessary for pve - if you like pvping it doesent matter if its 3, 10 or 25...
and in terms of comparison, im doing the daily with 2 chars since implemntation and still do not have any version of the setshoulders i want not even speaking of the trait and armor version combination i want to have wich can take me years of daily grinding. thx to that BoP ***.