The Elder Scrolls Online

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Elite gear hit with the massive nerf hammer in 1.6 nobody does trials anymore: pics

Leave a Reply
  • henryabelarwb17_ESO
    henryabelarwb17_ESO
    ✭✭
    fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »
    henryabelarwb17_ESO wrote: »
    Those who criticises those that complain about the nerf to end game sets, have absolutely no idea what it takes to get one... it needs a lot of time and dedication, YOU HAVE NO IDEA how difficult it is to make a decent 12 people group able to tackle the trials and the amount of resources and money you waste on pots, this is supposed to be the creme de la creme of gear... it has to be better and it has to make you a bit op. Because then whats the point of the whole thing? In my opinion this is one of the biggest failures of the game, it has become a stick with a string and no carrot.
    The fact you're focusing on phat lewt indicates YOU HAVE NO IDEA what the majority of players play for: hint, it's not the e-peen.

    @Varacite said what I was going to, I'll not bother repeating it.

    This is not about the e-peen... its simple logic... would you go to work if they gave you no pay? The playing for fun bit without any form of incentive (like new gear or content) runs out eventualy... probably you havent arrived there yet...
    Edited by henryabelarwb17_ESO on 6 February 2015 09:46
  • henryabelarwb17_ESO
    henryabelarwb17_ESO
    ✭✭
    Varicite wrote: »
    henryabelarwb17_ESO wrote: »
    Those who criticises those that complain about the nerf to end game sets, have absolutely no idea what it takes to get one... it needs a lot of time and dedication, YOU HAVE NO IDEA how difficult it is to make a decent 12 people group able to tackle the trials and the amount of resources and money you waste on pots, this is supposed to be the creme de la creme of gear... it has to be better and it has to make you a bit op. Because then whats the point of the whole thing? In my opinion this is one of the biggest failures of the game, it has become a stick with a string and no carrot.

    Well, in MMOs today, there are tons of casuals.

    FAR MORE than are running hard mode Trials.

    And they would also like a carrot for their stick.

    And they are paying ZOS a whole lot more than you ever will.

    What does that have to do with anything? Its obvious that as content gets harder and harder less people will do it... you speak like that probably because you are a casual player and haven't done any trials... Are you one of those people that plays for an hour a day and wants no one to be better then him? If there is no reward for effort invested ppl will leave, as many already did... And those tons of casual players will now go F2P...
    Edited by henryabelarwb17_ESO on 6 February 2015 10:16
  • Varicite
    Varicite
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭
    henryabelarwb17_ESO wrote: »
    Varicite wrote: »
    henryabelarwb17_ESO wrote: »
    Those who criticises those that complain about the nerf to end game sets, have absolutely no idea what it takes to get one... it needs a lot of time and dedication, YOU HAVE NO IDEA how difficult it is to make a decent 12 people group able to tackle the trials and the amount of resources and money you waste on pots, this is supposed to be the creme de la creme of gear... it has to be better and it has to make you a bit op. Because then whats the point of the whole thing? In my opinion this is one of the biggest failures of the game, it has become a stick with a string and no carrot.

    Well, in MMOs today, there are tons of casuals.

    FAR MORE than are running hard mode Trials.

    And they would also like a carrot for their stick.

    And they are paying ZOS a whole lot more than you ever will.

    What does that have to do with anything?

    Do I really need to explain to you how businesses work?
  • henryabelarwb17_ESO
    henryabelarwb17_ESO
    ✭✭
    Varicite wrote: »
    henryabelarwb17_ESO wrote: »
    Varicite wrote: »
    henryabelarwb17_ESO wrote: »
    Those who criticises those that complain about the nerf to end game sets, have absolutely no idea what it takes to get one... it needs a lot of time and dedication, YOU HAVE NO IDEA how difficult it is to make a decent 12 people group able to tackle the trials and the amount of resources and money you waste on pots, this is supposed to be the creme de la creme of gear... it has to be better and it has to make you a bit op. Because then whats the point of the whole thing? In my opinion this is one of the biggest failures of the game, it has become a stick with a string and no carrot.

    Well, in MMOs today, there are tons of casuals.

    FAR MORE than are running hard mode Trials.

    And they would also like a carrot for their stick.

    And they are paying ZOS a whole lot more than you ever will.

    What does that have to do with anything?

    Do I really need to explain to you how businesses work?

    Do I need to explain how human nature works? If you dont play a lot u wont pay to play.... simple... so your argument is void.

  • tnliverpool
    tnliverpool
    ✭✭✭
    henryabelarwb17_ESO wrote: »
    fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »
    henryabelarwb17_ESO wrote: »
    Those who criticises those that complain about the nerf to end game sets, have absolutely no idea what it takes to get one... it needs a lot of time and dedication, YOU HAVE NO IDEA how difficult it is to make a decent 12 people group able to tackle the trials and the amount of resources and money you waste on pots, this is supposed to be the creme de la creme of gear... it has to be better and it has to make you a bit op. Because then whats the point of the whole thing? In my opinion this is one of the biggest failures of the game, it has become a stick with a string and no carrot.
    The fact you're focusing on phat lewt indicates YOU HAVE NO IDEA what the majority of players play for: hint, it's not the e-peen.

    @Varacite said what I was going to, I'll not bother repeating it.

    This is not about the e-peen... its simple logic... would you go to work if they gave you no pay? The playing for fun bit without any form of incentive (like new gear or content) runs out eventualy... probably you havent arrived there yet...

    First, don't confuse work with play. I happen to love my job, but part of that is I get payed well. ESO is not work. If it ever became work, I wouldn't play. ESO is a hobby and should be fun.

    Now, from my point of view I play this game because I like killing things for sake of killing things. If I get a cool reward, all the better. I understand that others get their fun by the gear progression. To each their own. BOTH sets of players have equal rights to want this game to be fun for their reasons. This is where the problem lies.

    For PvE, if the best trial guilds get awesome rewards for trials that make their characters absurdly OP, I'm talking Molag Ball poo's himself in the middle of the night when he has nightmares about them kind of powerful, I am totally fine with it. It has absolutely NO bearing on how I enjoy the game. However, the same problem arises with EVERY PvE/PvP game. How to balance the two.

    I enjoy PvP quite a bit. I do not have the best build or gear, but I think I am pretty competent and can hold my own. Now, if this super awesome trials guild (I am going to be inaccurate on purpose and by no means is this aimed at one one person or group) enters PvP and has NO knowledge of PvP or no PvP abilities but proceeds to lay waste to hordes of enemies simply because he has the super gear, then there is an issue.

    This goes back to the whole "play how you want to" statement that ZoS has advocated since the begining. If the trial sets are ultra powerful, than people that want to be competitive in PvP must complete trials and get the gear. People like me, people who don't have the time to try and organize a trial run daily or even weekly, will just get destroyed in PvP. While I have no problem dying in PvP, I loathe dying to players that are artificially superior because they have OP gear (Trials of Atlantis from DAOC anyone?) If you PvP alot, you know when you die to someone more skilled. So far in ESO, PvP has been pretty balanced in terms of gear (other than the VR differences of course). PvP has other problems but not related to this thread mind you.

    OK, so what the hell does all this mean. I want the trial guilds to get their just rewards. I really do. I am honestly envious that you guys get to do these things. But just barely. What I don't want to happen is my character becomes second rate by some distance in PvP simply because I don't have time to run trials. If I am second rate for PvE, thats just fine by me.

    How can ZoS fix this? No clue. I hate the idea of items and sets having separate stats, one PvE and one PvP, but it is an easy fix.

    Oh, and just to clarify. I have no problem with a competant PvP'er that also has the absolute best gear (trial gear) beating me because he has the gear. Assuming we are equal and identical players, then sure his gear can make the difference. For PvP gear should only play a small factor in the battle (10% or less). It really should be a battle of wits against your enemy. Not a battle of how well you beat AI in a dungeon, that is what the leaderboards are for.
  • henryabelarwb17_ESO
    henryabelarwb17_ESO
    ✭✭
    tnliverpool wrote: »
    henryabelarwb17_ESO wrote: »
    fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »
    henryabelarwb17_ESO wrote: »
    Those who criticises those that complain about the nerf to end game sets, have absolutely no idea what it takes to get one... it needs a lot of time and dedication, YOU HAVE NO IDEA how difficult it is to make a decent 12 people group able to tackle the trials and the amount of resources and money you waste on pots, this is supposed to be the creme de la creme of gear... it has to be better and it has to make you a bit op. Because then whats the point of the whole thing? In my opinion this is one of the biggest failures of the game, it has become a stick with a string and no carrot.
    The fact you're focusing on phat lewt indicates YOU HAVE NO IDEA what the majority of players play for: hint, it's not the e-peen.

    @Varacite said what I was going to, I'll not bother repeating it.

    This is not about the e-peen... its simple logic... would you go to work if they gave you no pay? The playing for fun bit without any form of incentive (like new gear or content) runs out eventualy... probably you havent arrived there yet...


    For PvE, if the best trial guilds get awesome rewards for trials that make their characters absurdly OP, I'm talking Molag Ball poo's himself in the middle of the night when he has nightmares about them kind of powerful, I am totally fine with it. It has absolutely NO bearing on how I enjoy the game. However, the same problem arises with EVERY PvE/PvP game. How to balance the two.

    I enjoy PvP quite a bit. I do not have the best build or gear, but I think I am pretty competent and can hold my own. Now, if this super awesome trials guild (I am going to be inaccurate on purpose and by no means is this aimed at one one person or group) enters PvP and has NO knowledge of PvP or no PvP abilities but proceeds to lay waste to hordes of enemies simply because he has the super gear, then there is an issue.

    Tell me which gear can do that? I play both pve and pvp and i still have to find a usefull set to use from the trials for pvp, Im a DK mage and the Aether set is useful in pve... crit is useless in pvp unless one doesnt wear impeneterable. If a person manages to get the Sanctum gear he is by no means a noob and its not the gear that makes it that way, one must be good or he will fail. (And if you are refering to Undaunted sets... they r nowhere near as hard as trials.)
    This goes back to the whole "play how you want to" statement that ZoS has advocated since the begining. If the trial sets are ultra powerful, than people that want to be competitive in PvP must complete trials and get the gear. People like me, people who don't have the time to try and organize a trial run daily or even weekly, will just get destroyed in PvP. While I have no problem dying in PvP, I loathe dying to players that are artificially superior because they have OP gear (Trials of Atlantis from DAOC anyone?) If you PvP alot, you know when you die to someone more skilled. So far in ESO, PvP has been pretty balanced in terms of gear (other than the VR differences of course). PvP has other problems but not related to this thread mind you.

    Play how you want is now a joke... my Dk mage has become obsolete , now im forced to be a stamina build to get a decent dps. And pls give me examples on how u get destroyed in pvp... A sorc can zap his way out, A nb can fear you 2 times and drains all your stamina... there might be some stamina gear that would make u op, but there r few players that have those sets... and you cannot expect to be at par with the person that worked hard for that set.


    OK, so what the hell does all this mean. I want the trial guilds to get their just rewards. I really do. I am honestly envious that you guys get to do these things. But just barely. What I don't want to happen is my character becomes second rate by some distance in PvP simply because I don't have time to run trials. If I am second rate for PvE, thats just fine by me.

    The problem with PVP is not 1v1 and gear... its zergs... they could be easily fixed with an aoe that if there r more then 10 or 15 in same area they get all nuked... it would force ppl to make smaller groups spread out and have more 1v1

    Oh, and just to clarify. I have no problem with a competant PvP'er that also has the absolute best gear (trial gear) beating me because he has the gear. Assuming we are equal and identical players, then sure his gear can make the difference. For PvP gear should only play a small factor in the battle (10% or less). It really should be a battle of wits against your enemy. Not a battle of how well you beat AI in a dungeon, that is what the leaderboards are for.

    Well currently pvp is zerg vs zerg and ganking... no gear can save you from a zerg...

    Edited by henryabelarwb17_ESO on 6 February 2015 14:36
  • tnliverpool
    tnliverpool
    ✭✭✭
    henryabelarwb17_ESO wrote: »
    tnliverpool wrote: »
    henryabelarwb17_ESO wrote: »
    fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »
    henryabelarwb17_ESO wrote: »
    Those who criticises those that complain about the nerf to end game sets, have absolutely no idea what it takes to get one... it needs a lot of time and dedication, YOU HAVE NO IDEA how difficult it is to make a decent 12 people group able to tackle the trials and the amount of resources and money you waste on pots, this is supposed to be the creme de la creme of gear... it has to be better and it has to make you a bit op. Because then whats the point of the whole thing? In my opinion this is one of the biggest failures of the game, it has become a stick with a string and no carrot.
    The fact you're focusing on phat lewt indicates YOU HAVE NO IDEA what the majority of players play for: hint, it's not the e-peen.

    @Varacite said what I was going to, I'll not bother repeating it.

    This is not about the e-peen... its simple logic... would you go to work if they gave you no pay? The playing for fun bit without any form of incentive (like new gear or content) runs out eventualy... probably you havent arrived there yet...


    For PvE, if the best trial guilds get awesome rewards for trials that make their characters absurdly OP, I'm talking Molag Ball poo's himself in the middle of the night when he has nightmares about them kind of powerful, I am totally fine with it. It has absolutely NO bearing on how I enjoy the game. However, the same problem arises with EVERY PvE/PvP game. How to balance the two.

    I enjoy PvP quite a bit. I do not have the best build or gear, but I think I am pretty competent and can hold my own. Now, if this super awesome trials guild (I am going to be inaccurate on purpose and by no means is this aimed at one one person or group) enters PvP and has NO knowledge of PvP or no PvP abilities but proceeds to lay waste to hordes of enemies simply because he has the super gear, then there is an issue.

    Tell me which gear can do that? I play both pve and pvp and i still have to find a usefull set to use from the trials for pvp, Im a DK mage and the Aether set is useful in pve... crit is useless in pvp unless one doesnt wear impeneterable. If a person manages to get the Sanctum gear he is by no means a noob and its not the gear that makes it that way, one must be good or he will fail. (And if you are refering to Undaunted sets... they r nowhere near as hard as trials.)
    This goes back to the whole "play how you want to" statement that ZoS has advocated since the begining. If the trial sets are ultra powerful, than people that want to be competitive in PvP must complete trials and get the gear. People like me, people who don't have the time to try and organize a trial run daily or even weekly, will just get destroyed in PvP. While I have no problem dying in PvP, I loathe dying to players that are artificially superior because they have OP gear (Trials of Atlantis from DAOC anyone?) If you PvP alot, you know when you die to someone more skilled. So far in ESO, PvP has been pretty balanced in terms of gear (other than the VR differences of course). PvP has other problems but not related to this thread mind you.

    Play how you want is now a joke... my Dk mage has become obsolete , now im forced to be a stamina build to get a decent dps. And pls give me examples on how u get destroyed in pvp... A sorc can zap his way out, A nb can fear you 2 times and drains all your stamina... there might be some stamina gear that would make u op, but there r few players that have those sets... and you cannot expect to be at par with the person that worked hard for that set.


    OK, so what the hell does all this mean. I want the trial guilds to get their just rewards. I really do. I am honestly envious that you guys get to do these things. But just barely. What I don't want to happen is my character becomes second rate by some distance in PvP simply because I don't have time to run trials. If I am second rate for PvE, thats just fine by me.

    The problem with PVP is not 1v1 and gear... its zergs... they could be easily fixed with an aoe that if there r more then 10 or 15 in same area they get all nuked... it would force ppl to make smaller groups spread out and have more 1v1

    Oh, and just to clarify. I have no problem with a competant PvP'er that also has the absolute best gear (trial gear) beating me because he has the gear. Assuming we are equal and identical players, then sure his gear can make the difference. For PvP gear should only play a small factor in the battle (10% or less). It really should be a battle of wits against your enemy. Not a battle of how well you beat AI in a dungeon, that is what the leaderboards are for.

    Well currently pvp is zerg vs zerg and ganking... no gear can save you from a zerg...

    I think you missed the point. Currently there are no sets that give you an amazing advantage in PvP. This is a good thing. This is partially why (speculation on my part) that the trial sets are not vastly better than crafted sets. And no. Competence in PvE does not equate to competence in PvP. They are two different skill sets.

    As for ways I get "destroyed" in PvP, I never said I did. Sure I get run over by the zerg sometimes. It happens. I respawn and move out again. My point was, IF the day comes where someone in full trial, or whatever possible new PvE dungeons, gear is immensely stronger based SOLEY on the fact they have better gear then there is a problem. Again, if they have better gear and they earned it of course they should be stronger. But, if they are unskilled at PvP, don't use terrain, don't pay attention to immovable and CC immunities, don't time and judge magicka/stamina reserves, stay in melee range and spam attacks against a blazing shield, and they can simply annihilate an opponent only because of gear, then people will not PvP.

    Of all the things that factor into a battle, be it 1v1, 5v5, 2v4, zerg v zerg, tactics and skill should be 85% or more, and the rest should be gear.

    And again, I am all for trials dropping super awesome gear. They are immensely challenging and should have a reward. But, and I stated this earlier, ever game that has both PvE and PvP almost always runs into balance issues in terms of gear.
  • henryabelarwb17_ESO
    henryabelarwb17_ESO
    ✭✭
    My point was as you said that there is no gear that gives you an ultra op advantage right now, so why nerf them? I agree that pvp and pve have differnt tactics... and If somoene invested his time to get the endgame trial gear he will do the same for pvp... and my biggest issue right now that the only viable magica dps build for pve is if you have a sorc... they nerfed it 50% across the board, u get less magica, need more resources, less crit... etc... and If things stay as they are I will just cancel my sub and become a f2p as u get bored of everything eventually, it has become a grind writs, grind champ points, grind this grind that... same boring content over and over and with RNG and char locked loot table it really makes one feel miserable, I have a friend of mine who did vet dungeons 100s of times and he still is waiting for the thorn ring to drop... its just not fair so to complete any set u have to play a real lot, and then they nerf it...
  • tnliverpool
    tnliverpool
    ✭✭✭
    henryabelarwb17_ESO wrote: »
    My point was as you said that there is no gear that gives you an ultra op advantage right now, so why nerf them? I agree that pvp and pve have differnt tactics... and If somoene invested his time to get the endgame trial gear he will do the same for pvp... and my biggest issue right now that the only viable magica dps build for pve is if you have a sorc... they nerfed it 50% across the board, u get less magica, need more resources, less crit... etc... and If things stay as they are I will just cancel my sub and become a f2p as u get bored of everything eventually, it has become a grind writs, grind champ points, grind this grind that... same boring content over and over and with RNG and char locked loot table it really makes one feel miserable, I have a friend of mine who did vet dungeons 100s of times and he still is waiting for the thorn ring to drop... its just not fair so to complete any set u have to play a real lot, and then they nerf it...

    Never said they should nerf trial gear. I 100% agree they should be some of the best sets out there.

    Glad you agree that PvE and PvP tactics aren't similar. Yes, I also agree that a player that studies and is capable of completing trials and top tier PvE could also do something similar for PvP (work and invest the time to become better). Depends on the person though and if they actually find PvP enjoyable.

    And yes builds are in an intersting place right now. From the min/max perspective there are only a few viable builds out there, both in terms of PvE and PvP. You can still complete content with the less than perfect and less than min/max builds.

    Hopefully they introduce more and new PvE to keep people entertained because it does get boring and grindy doing the same thing over and over. This is exactly why I do PvP. Most nights will have new interesting opponents and new fights that I get to enjoy. Whereas Vet Darkshade is the same this week as it was last week as it was the week before.

    And is it so hard to type you instead of u? I mean, even on a cell phone it really isn't that hard. Its two letters extra only! ;)
  • HeroOfNone
    HeroOfNone
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭
    Should every armor be able to support every aspect (PvE group, PvE solo, PvP) and any role? No, most of us agree that would be rediculous. The gear in general would become meaningless if one set of armor did everything.

    Still seeing a lot of 1.5 build logic being applied here. 1.6 changes a lot of things, notably crit no longer generates ultimate, monsters scaled up so you need to pay attention to mechanics more, and the champion system has come to add more passive bonuses without gear.

    Now if this gear doesn't serve a purpose or is horribly under whelping verse another armor set then I'm all for changing it. Given this is the first week of testing, calm down, look at the sets, try a build or two, and find what works. Use THAT as your argument basis, it's a lot more positive than trying to compare what you used to do "back in the good old days of 1.5" like a cranky grandpa on a porch.

    Also, while every piece of armor should be useful, most of you out there already accepted that some trials gear was crap. Yokeda, Dragon, ice furnace, and others were all underpowered in 1.5, but the complaints were limited. even when folks use Ather it's rarely the 5 piece, it's normally 3-4 to get the crit and spell power.

    So folks, please relax and stop the backwards comparisons, most of it doesn't work. Start asking where the good builds are and start trying to improve a few pieces based on that instead.
    Herfi Driderkitty of the Aldmeri Dominion
    Find me on : Twitch | Youtube | Twitter | Reddit
  • Yusuf
    Yusuf
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    Ppl really should stop expecting 1.6 to be the new Messiah coming to save them. It's the same game with lots of changes, when the people said "ESO 2.0" they spoke metaphorically. I can't help but feel needed tbh, call it rebalancing all you want.
  • henryabelarwb17_ESO
    henryabelarwb17_ESO
    ✭✭
    heroofnoneb14_ESO wrote: »
    Should every armor be able to support every aspect (PvE group, PvE solo, PvP) and any role? No, most of us agree that would be rediculous. The gear in general would become meaningless if one set of armor did everything.

    Still seeing a lot of 1.5 build logic being applied here. 1.6 changes a lot of things, notably crit no longer generates ultimate, monsters scaled up so you need to pay attention to mechanics more, and the champion system has come to add more passive bonuses without gear.

    Now if this gear doesn't serve a purpose or is horribly under whelping verse another armor set then I'm all for changing it. Given this is the first week of testing, calm down, look at the sets, try a build or two, and find what works. Use THAT as your argument basis, it's a lot more positive than trying to compare what you used to do "back in the good old days of 1.5" like a cranky grandpa on a porch.

    Also, while every piece of armor should be useful, most of you out there already accepted that some trials gear was crap. Yokeda, Dragon, ice furnace, and others were all underpowered in 1.5, but the complaints were limited. even when folks use Ather it's rarely the 5 piece, it's normally 3-4 to get the crit and spell power.

    So folks, please relax and stop the backwards comparisons, most of it doesn't work. Start asking where the good builds are and start trying to improve a few pieces based on that instead.

    I tried about 5-6 different build set ups on PTS and tried dungeon and Trial I wouldn't have posted anything if i didnt...


    Edited by henryabelarwb17_ESO on 6 February 2015 15:48
  • HeroOfNone
    HeroOfNone
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    ✭
    henryabelarwb17_ESO wrote: »
    heroofnoneb14_ESO wrote: »
    Should every armor be able to support every aspect (PvE group, PvE solo, PvP) and any role? No, most of us agree that would be rediculous. The gear in general would become meaningless if one set of armor did everything.

    Still seeing a lot of 1.5 build logic being applied here. 1.6 changes a lot of things, notably crit no longer generates ultimate, monsters scaled up so you need to pay attention to mechanics more, and the champion system has come to add more passive bonuses without gear.

    Now if this gear doesn't serve a purpose or is horribly under whelping verse another armor set then I'm all for changing it. Given this is the first week of testing, calm down, look at the sets, try a build or two, and find what works. Use THAT as your argument basis, it's a lot more positive than trying to compare what you used to do "back in the good old days of 1.5" like a cranky grandpa on a porch.

    Also, while every piece of armor should be useful, most of you out there already accepted that some trials gear was crap. Yokeda, Dragon, ice furnace, and others were all underpowered in 1.5, but the complaints were limited. even when folks use Ather it's rarely the 5 piece, it's normally 3-4 to get the crit and spell power.

    So folks, please relax and stop the backwards comparisons, most of it doesn't work. Start asking where the good builds are and start trying to improve a few pieces based on that instead.

    I tried about 5-6 different build set ups on PTS and tried dungeon and Trial I wouldn't have posted anything if i didnt...


    Alright... and which armor sets worked better for what builds? Any? Or did you have trouble the entire time?
    Herfi Driderkitty of the Aldmeri Dominion
    Find me on : Twitch | Youtube | Twitter | Reddit
  • henryabelarwb17_ESO
    henryabelarwb17_ESO
    ✭✭
    heroofnoneb14_ESO wrote: »
    henryabelarwb17_ESO wrote: »
    heroofnoneb14_ESO wrote: »
    Should every armor be able to support every aspect (PvE group, PvE solo, PvP) and any role? No, most of us agree that would be rediculous. The gear in general would become meaningless if one set of armor did everything.

    Still seeing a lot of 1.5 build logic being applied here. 1.6 changes a lot of things, notably crit no longer generates ultimate, monsters scaled up so you need to pay attention to mechanics more, and the champion system has come to add more passive bonuses without gear.

    Now if this gear doesn't serve a purpose or is horribly under whelping verse another armor set then I'm all for changing it. Given this is the first week of testing, calm down, look at the sets, try a build or two, and find what works. Use THAT as your argument basis, it's a lot more positive than trying to compare what you used to do "back in the good old days of 1.5" like a cranky grandpa on a porch.

    Also, while every piece of armor should be useful, most of you out there already accepted that some trials gear was crap. Yokeda, Dragon, ice furnace, and others were all underpowered in 1.5, but the complaints were limited. even when folks use Ather it's rarely the 5 piece, it's normally 3-4 to get the crit and spell power.

    So folks, please relax and stop the backwards comparisons, most of it doesn't work. Start asking where the good builds are and start trying to improve a few pieces based on that instead.

    I tried about 5-6 different build set ups on PTS and tried dungeon and Trial I wouldn't have posted anything if i didnt...


    Alright... and which armor sets worked better for what builds? Any? Or did you have trouble the entire time?

    I am trying to find a viable DK Mage build, I tried various setups warlock/torug/valkyn; Warlock/twilight/Valkyn and many other combos of both gear and skills, attributes, champion points etc... it seems one cannot go above the 6-7k dps single target, (thats 600-700 dps 1.5) where using same gear on 1.5 it gives one double the dmg easy. and btw a staff hvy attack does more dmg then crushing shock!!! would u believe it!
    Edited by henryabelarwb17_ESO on 6 February 2015 16:17
  • xMovingTarget
    xMovingTarget
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    henryabelarwb17_ESO wrote: »
    Play how you want is now a joke... my Dk mage has become obsolete , now im forced to be a stamina build to get a decent dps. And pls give me examples on how u get destroyed in pvp... A sorc can zap his way out, A nb can fear you 2 times and drains all your stamina... there might be some stamina gear that would make u op, but there r few players that have those sets... and you cannot expect to be at par with the person that worked hard for that set.

    Ehm, no. You are not actually ;) Magicka DK still renders superior. You just need to change your mindset about stat allocation. you might wanna focus on something else now. ;)

    Tested in Trials on PTS btw. Mage DK rules em all, still.
  • Varicite
    Varicite
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    henryabelarwb17_ESO wrote: »
    Varicite wrote: »
    henryabelarwb17_ESO wrote: »
    Varicite wrote: »
    henryabelarwb17_ESO wrote: »
    Those who criticises those that complain about the nerf to end game sets, have absolutely no idea what it takes to get one... it needs a lot of time and dedication, YOU HAVE NO IDEA how difficult it is to make a decent 12 people group able to tackle the trials and the amount of resources and money you waste on pots, this is supposed to be the creme de la creme of gear... it has to be better and it has to make you a bit op. Because then whats the point of the whole thing? In my opinion this is one of the biggest failures of the game, it has become a stick with a string and no carrot.

    Well, in MMOs today, there are tons of casuals.

    FAR MORE than are running hard mode Trials.

    And they would also like a carrot for their stick.

    And they are paying ZOS a whole lot more than you ever will.

    What does that have to do with anything?

    Do I really need to explain to you how businesses work?

    Do I need to explain how human nature works? If you dont play a lot u wont pay to play.... simple... so your argument is void.

    You have clearly missed the point entirely in your eagerness to try to push your own insecurities onto random posters.

    Let me make this very simple for you:

    You have a game, you want it to sell well.

    You have 200 people who enjoy hardcore endgame activities. These people want the best gear to come from endgame and others should not be able to compete once they are wearing it.

    You have 4000 people who enjoy casually playing the game, PvP, crafting, questing, hanging out w/ friends, etc. These people want the best gear to be obtainable from questing, even if from a long grind.

    You still want to make money from your game.

    If you make the best gear come from only the highest tier hardcore raids, you will make 200 people happy, but 4000 people will probably get bored and leave.

    If you make the best gear craftable / season gear that can be bought, you will make 4000 people happy. But the previous 200 people may get bored and leave.

    4000 > 200. Casual money >>>>>>> Hardcore money.

    YOU, my friend, are sitting smack dab in the middle of the 200 hardcore people, and unfortunately you are in the vast minority of people this game is being marketed to.

    Thus, casuals will always have more money to contribute than your measly few raiders EVER will, period. Or have you not noticed the trends in gaming over the past decade and half?

    Interestingly, the games that I beat as a child (and I'm in my mid-thirties) are FAR more difficult to actually master and complete than the majority of the trash that comes out today.

    I'd ask why you think that is, but I haven't been too impressed thus far w/ your forays into logic, so I'll tell you:

    Casuals prefer games that are easier and always make them feel like they are getting more powerful as long as they are contributing time.

    Pretty simple logic.

    Now, you can go back to pretending that you have any clue which side of that fence that I'm standing on as though anybody cares about your childish assumptions about me. : )
  • henryabelarwb17_ESO
    henryabelarwb17_ESO
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    xMovingTarget wrote: »
    henryabelarwb17_ESO wrote: »
    Play how you want is now a joke... my Dk mage has become obsolete , now im forced to be a stamina build to get a decent dps. And pls give me examples on how u get destroyed in pvp... A sorc can zap his way out, A nb can fear you 2 times and drains all your stamina... there might be some stamina gear that would make u op, but there r few players that have those sets... and you cannot expect to be at par with the person that worked hard for that set.

    Ehm, no. You are not actually ;) Magicka DK still renders superior. You just need to change your mindset about stat allocation. you might wanna focus on something else now. ;)

    Tested in Trials on PTS btw. Mage DK rules em all, still.

    My attributes are 52 mag 10 hp.. have 29.5k mag, 19k hp and 9k stam, 1.5k spell dmg, 1.23k wpn dmg... im using both Molten whip and Crushing to test, and whip gives more dps output... so what do u suggest? (And I use all dot's to proc Valkyn)
    Edited by henryabelarwb17_ESO on 6 February 2015 16:31
  • HeroOfNone
    HeroOfNone
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    henryabelarwb17_ESO wrote: »
    heroofnoneb14_ESO wrote: »
    henryabelarwb17_ESO wrote: »
    heroofnoneb14_ESO wrote: »
    Should every armor be able to support every aspect (PvE group, PvE solo, PvP) and any role? No, most of us agree that would be rediculous. The gear in general would become meaningless if one set of armor did everything.

    Still seeing a lot of 1.5 build logic being applied here. 1.6 changes a lot of things, notably crit no longer generates ultimate, monsters scaled up so you need to pay attention to mechanics more, and the champion system has come to add more passive bonuses without gear.

    Now if this gear doesn't serve a purpose or is horribly under whelping verse another armor set then I'm all for changing it. Given this is the first week of testing, calm down, look at the sets, try a build or two, and find what works. Use THAT as your argument basis, it's a lot more positive than trying to compare what you used to do "back in the good old days of 1.5" like a cranky grandpa on a porch.

    Also, while every piece of armor should be useful, most of you out there already accepted that some trials gear was crap. Yokeda, Dragon, ice furnace, and others were all underpowered in 1.5, but the complaints were limited. even when folks use Ather it's rarely the 5 piece, it's normally 3-4 to get the crit and spell power.

    So folks, please relax and stop the backwards comparisons, most of it doesn't work. Start asking where the good builds are and start trying to improve a few pieces based on that instead.

    I tried about 5-6 different build set ups on PTS and tried dungeon and Trial I wouldn't have posted anything if i didnt...


    Alright... and which armor sets worked better for what builds? Any? Or did you have trouble the entire time?

    I am trying to find a viable DK Mage build, I tried various setups warlock/torug/valkyn; Warlock/twilight/Valkyn and many other combos of both gear and skills, attributes, champion points etc... it seems one cannot go above the 6-7k dps single target, (thats 600-700 dps 1.5) where using same gear on 1.5 it gives one double the dmg easy. and btw a staff hvy attack does more dmg then crushing shock!!! would u believe it!

    From what I've seen/heard, 6-7k is the old 1k dps.

    Also, how much of each Stat are you using? Seems you might still be putting weapon damage for staff abilities?

    Lastly, have you checked out the damage coefficient of the ability you're using?http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/comment/1539439/#Comment_1539439
    Herfi Driderkitty of the Aldmeri Dominion
    Find me on : Twitch | Youtube | Twitter | Reddit
  • xMovingTarget
    xMovingTarget
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    henryabelarwb17_ESO wrote: »
    xMovingTarget wrote: »
    henryabelarwb17_ESO wrote: »
    Play how you want is now a joke... my Dk mage has become obsolete , now im forced to be a stamina build to get a decent dps. And pls give me examples on how u get destroyed in pvp... A sorc can zap his way out, A nb can fear you 2 times and drains all your stamina... there might be some stamina gear that would make u op, but there r few players that have those sets... and you cannot expect to be at par with the person that worked hard for that set.

    Ehm, no. You are not actually ;) Magicka DK still renders superior. You just need to change your mindset about stat allocation. you might wanna focus on something else now. ;)

    Tested in Trials on PTS btw. Mage DK rules em all, still.

    My attributes are 52 mag 10 hp.. have 29.5k mag, 19k hp and 9k stam, 1.5k spell dmg, 1.23k wpn dmg... im using both Molten whip and Crushing to test, and whip gives more dps output... so what do u suggest?

    Dont use whip. Its not that good. I am still testing. We got 13-15k dps on bosses in AA/HR last time on PTS. So its still very very viable ;) Stamina DKs didnt perform that good ;)

    Theres still room for improvements. I dont give any details yet. I want ppl to evolve their own builds before they just kinda copy.

    Your stats are decent though.

    BTT : Aether set is utterly useless now, which is damn sad.
    Edited by xMovingTarget on 6 February 2015 16:37
  • rophez_ESO
    rophez_ESO
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    If you are an end game raider type person, how are you even still playing? These raids are super short. There's only 3 of them. The loot is boring. It's been confirmed nothing new is coming for at least half a year. It boggles my mind.
  • Tankqull
    Tankqull
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    Joejudas wrote: »
    Valencer wrote: »
    Less drama, more objectivity.

    Gear crit chance got nerfed across the board, making trials gear less useful. Complain about that instead of some imaginary grand ZOS conspiracy.

    and making trials gear less useful helps who? Which part of the community does that help ?!?!?!?!?

    everyone intrested primarily in pvp - wich aswell as pve is a hughe part of the game.

    i would have preferred if they would have made the pve sets more powerfull but rather niche items
    sth like
    6th bonus when cobined with atleast 3 pieces of another pve set +12% crit rating vs non player opponents

    that way they would have inferior stats to crafted sets as long as they are not used in pve in conjunction with other pve sets.
    so dedicated pveer ar rewarded while non pveer are not fugged up
    Edited by Tankqull on 6 February 2015 17:43
    spelling and grammar errors are free to be abused
    Sallington wrote: »
    Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!"


  • DDuke
    DDuke
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    Cool, I can post again.

    Let me share my thoughts on this whole "casual vs hardcore" debacle (one of my favorite topics).

    @Varicite‌
    You mention that the casual players want their own "carrots on a stick".
    The fact is, these players have much more "carrots on a stick" than the ones doing SO & such, since they likely have much content they haven't completed yet.
    This content serves as their carrot on a stick, and also, every time content gets added for the "hardcore" people, the carrots keep piling for the casual crowd.

    That said, I do think that rewards for things like Craglorn dungeons & PvP should be improved. Perhaps special crafting materials, that allow you to craft stronger gear than the current crafted one? Also, I'd make the rewards from AA/Hel Ra (fairly casual raids these days) a lot better also.

    That said, the gear would still have to be atleast slightly worse than the most difficult to get gear (Vicious etc), else everyone would just do those easy dungeons, rather than Trials (also there's the whole Risk vs Reward aspect to consider).

    I'm willing to bet 99% of "casuals" won't care if they're 10% weaker than someone doing the most difficult content in game and spending lots of gold & effort to do that.

    Besides, they're already likely going to be weaker than someone who plays a lot due to the Champion System. I'm not sure I like it (progression being tied to time spent, instead of skill), but that's how it is.

    Also, we have to keep in mind that SO sets can be achieved by PvPing as well (top 2% leaderboard rewards). I personally don't like this, and would rather have a new PvP set (equal in power, but different) come from those rewards.
    That way, both rewards feel more exquisite & meaningful.


    In the end, "casual vs hardcore" or "PvEr vs PvPer" confrontrations are ones that we don't need to have.
    rophez_ESO wrote: »
    If you are an end game raider type person, how are you even still playing? These raids are super short. There's only 3 of them. The loot is boring. It's been confirmed nothing new is coming for at least half a year. It boggles my mind.

    A question I ask myself atleast twice a day. I've started looking at other MMOs, but there's not many that interest me out there currently...

    Atleast I somewhat enjoy the PvP in the game, but that's getting old quick :/
    Edited by DDuke on 6 February 2015 17:16
  • henryabelarwb17_ESO
    henryabelarwb17_ESO
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    You have 200 people who enjoy hardcore endgame activities. These people want the best gear to come from endgame and others should not be able to compete once they are wearing it.

    You have 4000 people who enjoy casually playing the game, PvP, crafting, questing, hanging out w/ friends, etc. These people want the best gear to be obtainable from questing, even if from a long grind.

    You still want to make money from your game.

    If you make the best gear come from only the highest tier hardcore raids, you will make 200 people happy, but 4000 people will probably get bored and leave.

    If you make the best gear craftable / season gear that can be bought, you will make 4000 people happy. But the previous 200 people may get bored and leave.

    4000 > 200. Casual money >>>>>>> Hardcore money.

    Your logic defies logic... What would be the reason for casual players to pay the sub? they will just buy the dlc...

    YOU, my friend, are sitting smack dab in the middle of the 200 hardcore people, and unfortunately you are in the vast minority of people this game is being marketed to.

    Thus, casuals will always have more money to contribute than your measly few raiders EVER will, period. Or have you not noticed the trends in gaming over the past decade and half?

    It is Hardcore players that promote the game, that do websites, that give the community something to look forward to, you see a player with awesome gear and say I want to get that! If you want to just play casually why should you bother with what end game ppl get. And to be clear I am not asking for Ultra OP stuff... I am just asking that the nerfs to endgame sets get retracted, even if they leave them as 1.5 they will not be OP.
    I'd ask why you think that is, but I haven't been too impressed thus far w/ your forays into logic, so I'll tell you:

    Casuals prefer games that are easier and always make them feel like they are getting more powerful as long as they are contributing time.

    Pretty simple logic.

    Now, you can go back to pretending that you have any clue which side of that fence that I'm standing on as though anybody cares about your childish assumptions about me. : )

    There is a saying you cannot bake the cake and eat it... If there is no incentive or reward, people will just stop playing like it happened over and over the past year... I do not have a single friend from the first 3 months of the game in my list anymore, they quit... The basis of any game apart from enjoyment is that you get rewarded decently for your effort... would you expect the same wage of someone working an hour a day to be the same as the one that works 8 at the same job? And I use work as an example as its a time/reward example. Games are built on competitiveness and team spirit, but if there isnt a goal, Fun in itself wears out eventually... as the constant haemorrage of players has shown over the past months. It is sad that you don't get it... the classic egoistic personality that if I cannot have it no one else can...


  • Varicite
    Varicite
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    DDuke wrote: »
    I'm willing to bet 99% of "casuals" won't care if they're 10% weaker than someone doing the most difficult content in game and spending lots of gold & effort to do that.

    @DDuke Welcome back to the forums. : P

    You say this, and I think about that "other game" where this very same debate rages constantly between hardcore and casual.

    It's pretty much the entire reasoning behind having added a PvP stat (Resilience) and maintaining it for the past 7-8 years, as people were sick of hardcore PvE'rs coming to PvP in their raid gear and destroying everyone w/out a real chance of fighting back, even seasoned veteran PvPers fully decked out.

    Now, I'm not saying that there's a danger of that happening here, but it does point out that when things like this actually do happen in-game, people are likely to care that they are weaker than other players simply because they don't like to raid.

    There seems to be this disconnect between casual and upper echelons, where the hardcore seem to believe that casuals could do the same things for the same gear. But the simple fact is that a lot of people don't actually find the constant prep, resource drain, and frustration to be all that much fun.

    Anyway, I don't honestly care one way or another; I'm simply laying out the observations of the trends I've seen as an avid gamer throughout the MMO period (and longer, of course).
    DDuke wrote: »
    In the end, "casual vs hardcore" or "PvEr vs PvPer" confrontrations are ones that we don't need to have.

    This, we can agree on. I wasn't trying to cause any kind of confrontation, and I apologize if it seems so. I haven't called anyone a "dirty casual" or "elitist jerk", as I tend to remain objective in these matters.

    But I did feel the need, when reading what was essentially a rant from a hardcore player about how the top 2% of players deserve to be untouchable when compared to the rest of the filthy peasants, to remind people that these hardcore players don't even contribute a 10th of the revenue that those "peasants" are paying ZOS.

    Business is business, plain and simple. And this is most definitely a business.
  • henryabelarwb17_ESO
    henryabelarwb17_ESO
    ✭✭
    But I did feel the need, when reading what was essentially a rant from a hardcore player about how the top 2% of players deserve to be untouchable when compared to the rest of the filthy peasants, to remind people that these hardcore players don't even contribute a 10th of the revenue that those "peasants" are paying ZOS.

    Business is business, plain and simple. And this is most definitely a business.

    That is your assumption... who said anything about being untouchable??? again, we are not requesting ultra op gear... and again those 'filthy peasants' as you called them, won't be paying anything to ZOS... is it so hard to get? And the few ppl that will do, will eventually end up sucked in to hardcore...
  • DDuke
    DDuke
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    Varicite wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    I'm willing to bet 99% of "casuals" won't care if they're 10% weaker than someone doing the most difficult content in game and spending lots of gold & effort to do that.

    @DDuke Welcome back to the forums. : P

    You say this, and I think about that "other game" where this very same debate rages constantly between hardcore and casual.

    It's pretty much the entire reasoning behind having added a PvP stat (Resilience) and maintaining it for the past 7-8 years, as people were sick of hardcore PvE'rs coming to PvP in their raid gear and destroying everyone w/out a real chance of fighting back, even seasoned veteran PvPers fully decked out.

    Thanks.

    Actually, if I remember correctly Resilience was added mainly to combat the low TTK in PvP, but don't quote me on this.

    In vanilla, that "other game" used to have very good PvP gear as well, but perhaps they could've done more with it.

    I do remember meeting those hardcore PvEr raids in BGs, personally I thought it was awesome (even though I was going to get my butt kicked), but I can understand people being frustrated about that.
    Later they introduced a matchmaking system that fixed atleast some of those complaints.
    Varicite wrote: »
    Now, I'm not saying that there's a danger of that happening here, but it does point out that when things like this actually do happen in-game, people are likely to care that they are weaker than other players simply because they don't like to raid.

    There seems to be this disconnect between casual and upper echelons, where the hardcore seem to believe that casuals could do the same things for the same gear. But the simple fact is that a lot of people don't actually find the constant prep, resource drain, and frustration to be all that much fun.

    Anyway, I don't honestly care one way or another; I'm simply laying out the observations of the trends I've seen as an avid gamer throughout the MMO period (and longer, of course).

    Yeah, I agree that gear should come from variety of content.

    How it could work in ESO:
    E.g.
    • You get Tier 1 from crafting basic gear
    • You get Tier 2 (3-4% stronger) from collecting rare crafting materials at Craglorn dungeons/PvP
    • You get Tier 3 (4-5% stronger) from AA/Hel Ra, VR Dungeons, or by being even better at PvP
    • You get Tier 4 (6-7% stronger) from SO, or by being in top 2% of PvP leaderboards. Also, even rarer crafting components could be added to these rewards, which only the best crafters could use to craft special gear (equal/stronger than Tier 4).

    And if they introduce new Tiers, the previous ones could become easier to get (e.g. purchasable by tokens or gold, craftable, or by having content become easier).
    Varicite wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    In the end, "casual vs hardcore" or "PvEr vs PvPer" confrontrations are ones that we don't need to have.

    This, we can agree on. I wasn't trying to cause any kind of confrontation, and I apologize if it seems so. I haven't called anyone a "dirty casual" or "elitist jerk", as I tend to remain objective in these matters.

    But I did feel the need, when reading what was essentially a rant from a hardcore player about how the top 2% of players deserve to be untouchable when compared to the rest of the filthy peasants, to remind people that these hardcore players don't even contribute a 10th of the revenue that those "peasants" are paying ZOS.

    Business is business, plain and simple. And this is most definitely a business.

    Of course it shouldn't be OP gear that makes you untouchable to those who aren't at that stage of progression yet, but atleast somewhat better than what you can craft in 5 minutes.

    I believe the main reason that "other game" was so succesfull 11 years ago, is because they managed to appeal to every type of player from hardcore PvEr to casual PvPer.
    When they started dumbing things down & making things easier, they actually lost millions of players.
    Edited by DDuke on 6 February 2015 18:04
  • tnliverpool
    tnliverpool
    ✭✭✭
    DDuke wrote: »

    Yeah, I agree that gear should come from variety of content.

    How it could work in ESO:
    E.g.
    • You get Tier 1 from crafting basic gear
    • You get Tier 2 (3-4% stronger) from collecting rare crafting materials at Craglorn dungeons/PvP
    • You get Tier 3 (4-5% stronger) from AA/Hel Ra, VR Dungeons, or by being even better at PvP
    • You get Tier 4 (6-7% stronger) from SO, or by being in top 2% of PvP leaderboards. Also, even rarer crafting components could be added to these rewards, which only the best crafters could use to craft special gear (equal/stronger than Tier 4).

    And if they introduce new Tiers, the previous ones could become easier to get (e.g. purchasable by tokens or gold, craftable, or by having content become easier).

    This would be a really cool thing if they implemented it. Perhaps with 1.7? and the removal of VR we will see something like this in terms of gear progression.

    And being a casual player does equate to a non-paying player. I consider myself "casual" but I am keeping my sub after B2P. I know many other "casuals" that are as well. I dare say that the number of "casuals" that will maintain a subscription will exceed the TOTAL number of "hardcore" players.

    Man I really hate those two terms. They are just ugly ugly terms.
  • Jaerlach
    Jaerlach
    ✭✭✭
    Hey gear isn't the only reason to do a trial or no one would tank sanctum. Eternal yokeda hee hee hee :)
    Jaerlach Kesepton (DK)
    The 7th Vanguard
    DC - NA first SO speed run & first Hardmode Speedrun
    NA Record Vet DSA: 11519
  • henryabelarwb17_ESO
    henryabelarwb17_ESO
    ✭✭
    tnliverpool wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »

    Yeah, I agree that gear should come from variety of content.

    How it could work in ESO:
    E.g.
    • You get Tier 1 from crafting basic gear
    • You get Tier 2 (3-4% stronger) from collecting rare crafting materials at Craglorn dungeons/PvP
    • You get Tier 3 (4-5% stronger) from AA/Hel Ra, VR Dungeons, or by being even better at PvP
    • You get Tier 4 (6-7% stronger) from SO, or by being in top 2% of PvP leaderboards. Also, even rarer crafting components could be added to these rewards, which only the best crafters could use to craft special gear (equal/stronger than Tier 4).

    And if they introduce new Tiers, the previous ones could become easier to get (e.g. purchasable by tokens or gold, craftable, or by having content become easier).

    This would be a really cool thing if they implemented it. Perhaps with 1.7? and the removal of VR we will see something like this in terms of gear progression.

    And being a casual player does equate to a non-paying player. I consider myself "casual" but I am keeping my sub after B2P. I know many other "casuals" that are as well. I dare say that the number of "casuals" that will maintain a subscription will exceed the TOTAL number of "hardcore" players.

    Man I really hate those two terms. They are just ugly ugly terms.

    It would all boil down to what you get with the sub... and the amount of crowns you get for your buck... 10% xp (inspiration and the rest is worthless for ppl that have levelled crafting which is basically almost every tom, *** and harry) and with costumes costing half a month subscription (atm on PTS) I doubt there is much point to subscribe and, one would prefer to just buy the dlc when it comes out... and seriously 10 soul gems for the price of almost 1/3 subscription (400 crowns)? Don't you think ppl will start selling them for cash?
  • lathbury
    lathbury
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    If they want ppl to continue to play the content they have produced for the next 6 months there needs to be some sort of carrot at the end of the potion grind time spent stick.
    my gear aether gear is a non choice now fine i'll craft something but if i was a new player what is the point of me doing trials/dsa more than once given the time /gold cost?
    This is the only PVE endgame content it needs a decent NOT OP reward to keep players doing it till they release more.
    It should be some of the best gear in the game as the content is some of the hardest its simple risk versus reward.
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