Ultimate generation in 1.6

bovardjeff_ESO

but that's just my 2 cents ...as a Templar tank

Atarax

bovardjeff_ESO wrote: »

but that's just my 2 cents ...as a Templar tank

Templars have the second highest ulti cost reduction and the highest potential ultimate generation in 1.6. Copy pasting my comments from this thread:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/149180/update-1-6-comprehensive-class-ability-list-and-balance-comparison#latest

Ultimate Generation / Ultimate Cost
1. All classes generate ultimate every second for 8 seconds after a light attack (giving a slight advantage to ranged attackers).
2. All classes have additional means of generating ultimate above this amount and/or reducing costs, these means are as follows:

Dragonknights:
Mountain's Blessing: Activating an Earthen Heart ability grants 1/2 additional Ultimate and gives Minor Brutality to all allies within 30m, increasing Weapon Damage by 5% over 10 seconds. (Earthen Heart abilities are: Stonefist, Molten Weapons, Obsidian Shield, Petrify, and Ash Cloud, some of which are potentially frequent use).

Nightblade:
Soul Harvest (Ultimate: Morph 2 of Deathstroke): While slotted, each kill generates increased Ultimate.
Catalyst: After Drinking a potion you gain 4/8 Ultimate.
Transfer: Boosts your Ultimate by 1/2 whenever a Siphoning ability deals damage. This effect has a 6 seconds cooldown. (Siphoning abilities are: Strife, Agony, Cripple, Siphoning Strikes, which can't trigger this, and Drain Power, NBs do tend to spam Strife or Drain Power, but what gives with them being the only class with a 6 second cooldown?)

Sorcerer:
Power Stone:Reduces the cost of Ultimate abilities by 8%/15%.
(unclear if any morphs give additional ultimate generation potential or not)

Templar:
Prism: Grants 1/2 additional ultimate when activating a Dawn's Wrath Ability (Dawn's Wrath Abilities are: Sun Fire, Solar Flare, Backlash, Eclipse, and Radient Destruction, all abilities that have the potential to be used frequently)
Light Weaver: Healing Ritual grants 1/2 ultimate to allies under 60% health.
Restoring Spirit: Reduces Magicka, Stamina, and Ultimate ability costs by 2%/4%

Analysis:
It appears that the order of supremacy in ultimate generation is:
Templar>DK>NB>Sorc, however, the fact that Sorc reduce all ultimate costs by 15% is the equivalent of 18 free ultimate every ultimate cast at the low end (Overload) or [60] (still need to check on sorc) at the high end (werewolf).

There are several issues with the current design:
1. Passives that reduce ultimate cost give an increasing advantage the larger the ultimate cost, whereas the generation increasing passives do not scale with ultimate cost; this appears to have been adjusted for in ultimate costs within the classes, however, all ultimates that are non-class create wide gaps.
2. Having some classes able to increase their ultimate generation rate through class abilities while others cannot also creates an unlevel playing field.
3. Having some classes able to generate ultimate through abilities they are likely to cast frequently, but placing a 6 second cooldown on other classes also creates an unlevel playing field.
4. That said, both Sorc and Nightblade have the two cheapest ultimates (Overload & Deathstroke)

If the intent is to have all classes able to generate ultimate and use ultimates at an approximately equivalent rate, I would suggest the following changes:

1. Have kills generate additional ultimate for everyone as long as you either damaged the enemy or healed someone who damaged the enemy
2. Give all classes a 250 cost, 125 cost, and 75 cost ultimate and balance their usefulness accordingly.
3. Give all classes a passive that reduces ultimate costs by 8%/15%
4. Give all classes a passive that grants 1/2 ultimate any time any ability is TRIGGERED (regardless of if the opponent is shielded/barriered/blocking or not)
5. Have ultimate generation only be able to happen while in combat
6. Remove all other ultimate generation increasing and cost reduction effects from passives and morphs (including Soul Harvest) and replace them with something else to add identity to classes without causing huge rifts in class ability.

Ultimate abilities are too critical / powerful to be nerfed to the extent they were, and to have these kinds of discrepancies between the classes in costs, generating ultimate, etc. creates large imbalances. Nightblades and Sorc could generate ultimate fairly well before 1.6, they are now extreme laggards in comparison to Templars. DKs were the kings of ultimate generation, now they pale in comparison to Templars. If we're going to revamp ultimate generation so dramatically, let's at least make sure there is a level field, and that the rate of generation allows people to use the cheapest ultimates once or twice a fight, or the most expensive about once a fight, without giving people the ability to spam them.

bovardjeff_ESO

Templars have the second highest ulti cost reduction and the highest potential ultimate generation in 1.6. Copy pasting my comments from this thread:

while that's true it doesn't help the fact that we have the highest cost damage ultimate equal in cost to werewolf transformation. on live its 288 even with the 4% ultimate cost reduction 4% doesn't do anything to help with using nova at more than once per boss fight.

bovardjeff_ESO

and as far as I have seen they don't have plans to lower the nova cost with update 6 as its still the same cost.

Cody

Sharkano wrote: »

The change is idiotic, and makes melees have to throw lights when reducing blocking hurts them the most. If they want to keep this moronic system they should at least allow light/heavy attacks from blocking, as with skills, so tanks perma-blocking can get off ultimate charging.

maybe learn to take down your dang block once every 8 seconds.....

Shadesofkin

It has not bothered me so far, but I get the frustration and I tend to agree that it is a lack of creativity. At the /very least/ weapon skills (of all types) ought to have a passive to allow their skills to grant ultimate in the same manner. For instance, if I throw out rapid strikes, that ought to count as a light or heavy attack once I hit a certain passive. Same goes for throwing out crushing shock in Destro line.

Panda244

Cody wrote: »

Sharkano wrote: »

The change is idiotic, and makes melees have to throw lights when reducing blocking hurts them the most. If they want to keep this moronic system they should at least allow light/heavy attacks from blocking, as with skills, so tanks perma-blocking can get off ultimate charging.

maybe learn to take down your dang block once every 8 seconds.....

For people that already do this change is a nerf imo, to perma-blockers, well screw them anyways.

Trayyacakes

PVE pros

1. Tanks drop more ultimates

PVE cons

1. Dps and heals drop less ultimates. BTW the DPS and heals ults where most likely way more important than the tanks ults because they actually did more than tickle.

PVP Pros

1. Faster ult in duels?
2. Less Ult spam. (This wasn't really a problem in my opinion but I guess it could be a pro?)

PVP Cons

1. Standardized ult gen takes skill out of the equation.
2. Larger numbers have even more of an advantage then they do on live since everyone will gain ult at the same rate.
3. Encourages even more people to use bats for a low cost PBAOE ult that isn't negated.
4. Ranged has an even larger advantage now.
5. There is no way for skilled players to gain ult faster than non skilled players.(I think this is also the case in live. knowing what abilities build ult faster is not skill imo)

Possible solutions.

1. Have ult gain increase based on the number of targets you have tagged. 1-6 normal gain, 6-20 gain an additional ult every 1.5s so on and so forth.
2. Have interrupts and other skill/awareness based things grant more ult. (the passive in the champion system for ult if you use a synergy is a good thing. There should be more stuff like this.)
3. Damage of any kind should contribute to ultimate. The dude running the crucial meatbag in the back should not be punished. The guy poring oil from the roof deserves credit too.

Vordae

The buff is the best way to balance ult gain. With that said it shouldn't trigger on just light or heavy attacks but on Light/Heavy attacks and any offensive ability/spell. Healing should gain the buff the way its is now. In some situations we could be hitting with our abilities but out of range to light or heavy attack. This would stop all the complaints about how the buff is obtained. From there you can just focus on what amount of ult should be gain a sec to keep it balanced and fun.

Vordae

Atarax wrote: »

bovardjeff_ESO wrote: »

but that's just my 2 cents ...as a Templar tank

Templars have the second highest ulti cost reduction and the highest potential ultimate generation in 1.6. Copy pasting my comments from this thread:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/149180/update-1-6-comprehensive-class-ability-list-and-balance-comparison#latest

Ultimate Generation / Ultimate Cost
1. All classes generate ultimate every second for 8 seconds after a light attack (giving a slight advantage to ranged attackers).
2. All classes have additional means of generating ultimate above this amount and/or reducing costs, these means are as follows:

Dragonknights:
Mountain's Blessing: Activating an Earthen Heart ability grants 1/2 additional Ultimate and gives Minor Brutality to all allies within 30m, increasing Weapon Damage by 5% over 10 seconds. (Earthen Heart abilities are: Stonefist, Molten Weapons, Obsidian Shield, Petrify, and Ash Cloud, some of which are potentially frequent use).

Nightblade:
Soul Harvest (Ultimate: Morph 2 of Deathstroke): While slotted, each kill generates increased Ultimate.
Catalyst: After Drinking a potion you gain 4/8 Ultimate.
Transfer: Boosts your Ultimate by 1/2 whenever a Siphoning ability deals damage. This effect has a 6 seconds cooldown. (Siphoning abilities are: Strife, Agony, Cripple, Siphoning Strikes, which can't trigger this, and Drain Power, NBs do tend to spam Strife or Drain Power, but what gives with them being the only class with a 6 second cooldown?)

Sorcerer:
Power Stone:Reduces the cost of Ultimate abilities by 8%/15%.
(unclear if any morphs give additional ultimate generation potential or not)

Templar:
Prism: Grants 1/2 additional ultimate when activating a Dawn's Wrath Ability (Dawn's Wrath Abilities are: Sun Fire, Solar Flare, Backlash, Eclipse, and Radient Destruction, all abilities that have the potential to be used frequently)
Light Weaver: Healing Ritual grants 1/2 ultimate to allies under 60% health.
Restoring Spirit: Reduces Magicka, Stamina, and Ultimate ability costs by 2%/4%

Analysis:
It appears that the order of supremacy in ultimate generation is:
Templar>DK>NB>Sorc, however, the fact that Sorc reduce all ultimate costs by 15% is the equivalent of 18 free ultimate every ultimate cast at the low end (Overload) or [60] (still need to check on sorc) at the high end (werewolf).

There are several issues with the current design:
1. Passives that reduce ultimate cost give an increasing advantage the larger the ultimate cost, whereas the generation increasing passives do not scale with ultimate cost; this appears to have been adjusted for in ultimate costs within the classes, however, all ultimates that are non-class create wide gaps.
2. Having some classes able to increase their ultimate generation rate through class abilities while others cannot also creates an unlevel playing field.
3. Having some classes able to generate ultimate through abilities they are likely to cast frequently, but placing a 6 second cooldown on other classes also creates an unlevel playing field.
4. That said, both Sorc and Nightblade have the two cheapest ultimates (Overload & Deathstroke)

If the intent is to have all classes able to generate ultimate and use ultimates at an approximately equivalent rate, I would suggest the following changes:

1. Have kills generate additional ultimate for everyone as long as you either damaged the enemy or healed someone who damaged the enemy
2. Give all classes a 250 cost, 125 cost, and 75 cost ultimate and balance their usefulness accordingly.
3. Give all classes a passive that reduces ultimate costs by 8%/15%
4. Give all classes a passive that grants 1/2 ultimate any time any ability is TRIGGERED (regardless of if the opponent is shielded/barriered/blocking or not)
5. Have ultimate generation only be able to happen while in combat
6. Remove all other ultimate generation increasing and cost reduction effects from passives and morphs (including Soul Harvest) and replace them with something else to add identity to classes without causing huge rifts in class ability.

Ultimate abilities are too critical / powerful to be nerfed to the extent they were, and to have these kinds of discrepancies between the classes in costs, generating ultimate, etc. creates large imbalances. Nightblades and Sorc could generate ultimate fairly well before 1.6, they are now extreme laggards in comparison to Templars. DKs were the kings of ultimate generation, now they pale in comparison to Templars. If we're going to revamp ultimate generation so dramatically, let's at least make sure there is a level field, and that the rate of generation allows people to use the cheapest ultimates once or twice a fight, or the most expensive about once a fight, without giving people the ability to spam them.

An easier fix would be to remove all ult generating or cost reduction passives. This will put all the classes at the same level. Then you reduces the cost of all ult to 150, 100, 50. All the current passives can be rework to more fun cool effects then ult cost reduction or extra generation.

Vordae

Trayyacakes wrote: »

PVE pros

1. Tanks drop more ultimates

PVE cons

1. Dps and heals drop less ultimates. BTW the DPS and heals ults where most likely way more important than the tanks ults because they actually did more than tickle.

PVP Pros

1. Faster ult in duels?
2. Less Ult spam. (This wasn't really a problem in my opinion but I guess it could be a pro?)

PVP Cons

1. Standardized ult gen takes skill out of the equation.
2. Larger numbers have even more of an advantage then they do on live since everyone will gain ult at the same rate.
3. Encourages even more people to use bats for a low cost PBAOE ult that isn't negated.
4. Ranged has an even larger advantage now.
5. There is no way for skilled players to gain ult faster than non skilled players.(I think this is also the case in live. knowing what abilities build ult faster is not skill imo)

Possible solutions.

1. Have ult gain increase based on the number of targets you have tagged. 1-6 normal gain, 6-20 gain an additional ult every 1.5s so on and so forth.
2. Have interrupts and other skill/awareness based things grant more ult. (the passive in the champion system for ult if you use a synergy is a good thing. There should be more stuff like this.)
3. Damage of any kind should contribute to ultimate. The dude running the crucial meatbag in the back should not be punished. The guy poring oil from the roof deserves credit too.

There was no skill in ult generation before these changes. If you wanted more ult generation you just raised you crit rating or heal spammed out of combat so it was up before the next fight. That goes for both pvp and pve. It was a skill less system that forced how they had to create endgame pve content. All endgame content had to be created based around 1 shot mechanics and dropping multiple ults to counter it. It encounters didn't have these mechanics built in them all the time they would be way to easy. With pretty much every class being able to generate enough ult to drop another ult as the first one expired the only counter to that is forcing the raids to have to drop all there ults at a specific time and then have to drop them all again in a very shot time frame. That describes pretty much every current end game fight.

Costismaros

Ultimate with light and heavy attacks it is much better for 4 reasons.

1. It will decrease cast+block(we must take down shields for ultimate regeneration).
2. Every build will have same oportunity on ultimates. (less magicka specs)
3. Dk nerf (dk with 1h+shield + bats).
4. We will not able to prepare Ultimates.

Personal opinion.

Atarax

bovardjeff_ESO wrote: »

Templars have the second highest ulti cost reduction and the highest potential ultimate generation in 1.6. Copy pasting my comments from this thread:

while that's true it doesn't help the fact that we have the highest cost damage ultimate equal in cost to werewolf transformation. on live its 288 even with the 4% ultimate cost reduction 4% doesn't do anything to help with using nova at more than once per boss fight.

Actually, WW transformation is 400 cost.

But I believe I already addressed your concern in my suggested changes.

Vordae wrote: »

An easier fix would be to remove all ult generating or cost reduction passives. This will put all the classes at the same level. Then you reduces the cost of all ult to 150, 100, 50. All the current passives can be rework to more fun cool effects then ult cost reduction or extra generation.

I'd be ok with them replacing all ulti generating or cost reduction passives as long as they rebalanced ulti cost as you suggest, and as long as they also give us inherent ulti generation on kills & for activating abilities as I suggest.

That sounds like a workable, balanced, system. They might need to tweak values here or there, but sounds good.

bovardjeff_ESO

when I said wolf ult was 288 I was speaking as it is in live currently sorry if I said in pts.
besides that as I stated I find while there were other creative methods for changing ultimate generation this was probably the quickest and effective way to change ultimate generation to be equal to everyone vs how it is in live.
The problem people seem to forget is that other methods of ultimate generation had the constant problem which was that the ultimate spammers would simply incorporate it into their own styles in order to stay on top of any attempt to bring tanks to their generation level. if they added more ultimate gain on blocking with a shield then we see more light armor shield users for example.
this is a decent quick fix that is much needed I mean COMMON how long have we been asking for a ultimate fix? pretty much since someone discovered the op status of vamp dragon knights. so now we get a simple....easy... and frankly well thought out form of ultimate generation that aside from killing a mob on the way to a keep cannot be exploited in any way that I see possible.