Templar Changes - Still Not Feeling The Love, Or Are You Feeling It A Little?

david.haypreub18_ESO

Not Feeling The Love (Useless changes)

ZoS know Templar magicka recovery is an issue. They have acknowledged it is an issue. They just refuse to do anything about it.

It is similar to the issue with Stamina using the same pool for abilities and for sprint/dodge/block/breakfree. The players keep saying it is an issue, but ZoS tries weak and peripheral individual fixes (10% damage here, a reduced radius there) rather than acknowledging the gaping, obvious core problem.

Khivas_Carrick

Not Feeling The Love (Useless changes)

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

ZoS know Templar magicka recovery is an issue. They have acknowledged it is an issue. They just refuse to do anything about it.

It is similar to the issue with Stamina using the same pool for abilities and for sprint/dodge/block/breakfree. The players keep saying it is an issue, but ZoS tries weak and peripheral individual fixes (10% damage here, a reduced radius there) rather than acknowledging the gaping, obvious core problem.

I believe this has been said a hundred-thousand times and yet ZoS sticks to their policy of simple baby steps. Perhaps it's for the best, perhaps not, we shall see in time. I don't think this game will die out, but I don't think it's going to do their company well either.

Pmarsico9

Not Feeling The Love (Useless changes)

Shinra wrote: »

Can't DPS in Trials. That's the only fact.

Actually, no. Veteran Dungeon speed runs for things like Spindleclutch are seriously hampered by Templar DPS outside of very rare cases like Khivas who are in yellow gear doing solid DPS.

Even then, another class in that gear has a higher potential. The ability to toss out heals in these type of achievement runs is nearly worthless.

As such, you are the one who is off base. It's in all PVE environments because math says that Templars have a much lower potential.

If the math supported you at all, as far as standing DPS went, you'd have a leg to stand on.

But the standing DPS gap between Templars, to a lesser extent Sorcs, and then Nightblades and DKs is becoming worse due to scaling issues.

The very things you talk about about people not blowing CDs and standing in the bad are the very reason why so many mechanics are bypassed:

Anybody can put a resto staff as a secondary weapon and help heal through absolutely massive damage. There's not a ton of one shot mechanics in this game.

Khivas_Carrick

Not Feeling The Love (Useless changes)

Suppsoedly though there will be soon, which still doesn't help us much since what off-heals we could support are then thrown out the window.

Also my gear is purple, working on full yellow. I just use mostly stamina abilities and toss a crapload of spears out to support my fellow tanks and melee. This is why I'm taken along to places so often, that and my Bow skills are actually quite amazing. Bowplar anybody?

Shinra

Feeling The Love (Useful changes)

It look's like you didn't get what I wanted to say. So I will try again.

Templar have low DPS, compared to others. That's a fact. And in Trials & Speed Runs, where only DPS matters for DDs, they stay behind, obviously. There is nothing to argue about that, cause those are facts.

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

In my guild's Trials run I'm the only mDPS Templar, and we have one other Caster DPS Templar, and then a Templar Healer. It's a miracle that I can pull it off and frankly it's only due to me tossing spears to my allies that use Stamina and the rare offheal from my second bar. As for Vet Dungeons, you're off base again and I'm starting to wonder if you really know your class or not, let alone the other classes.

DK's in the top spot makes sense, but the way you put it makes it sound like the Templar should be tanking, not dealing damage. On the DPS parts that matter, single target boss battles, Templars do not deserve that second spot. We can manage CC on adds amazingly well, yes, but actually killing the boss can take some time, whereas the Nightblade and Sorc if they're smart can do both Add Management and single target DPS just fine.

Now from a Support DPS standpoint they'd be the best of course, and would work wonderfully, but that's if the encounters and the other classes actually needed a support DPS. Fact is they don't, and I got lucky that my guild lets me run as I do now, despite using so few of my actual class skills to kill things.

1. Templars don't die, even as DDs.

2. Of course, they pay that with their DPS, and killing the boss will take some more time. ^^for speed runs, that's useless, obviously.

3. You assume that all Nightblades and Sorcs are smart. Sorry to disappoint you, but they are not.

As you sound like one of those elite players only playing dungeons for speed runs, let me clear another thing up.
There are people who don't play like that. So, for me, there are other things that matter, than for you. To clear things up, I will give you an example of my evening:

I get home from work and want to chill in some vet dungeons. So I will look in my guild or collect some randoms. Now I get one capable dk tank, and as DDs one Sorc and one Nightblade.
Well, so far, so good. The dungeon starts, and every mob fight goes like that: Nightblade jumps in first, pulls all the aggro. Next is Sorc, casting his impluse, running in the middle of the group of enemies and casting his impulse. They absorb quite a lot of damage, red circles on the ground don't matter for those two.
Of course, I am a good healer, so nothing to worry about jet. Then, some time later, me and the sorc waiting for the dk tank who is switching some skills, the nightblade, as he thinks he is the best, runs further ahead and dies an honorable death. Of course, I am the healer, so it's my fault.
With bosses, the nightblade plays the same way. Close range DD without any protection, of course never ever blocking and ignoring any red circle. Well, I am the healer, I should just heal him, right?
Meanwhile, the Sorc stands far away, casting Force Shocks, and any adds spawned by the boss attack me without being stopped or attacked by anybody, and i have to run around like a madman, and still healing everybody to save what's left.

So my list rather says which classes are preferable DDs, instead of which are potentially the best. Put like that, it's something llike that:

95 % of all random DKs play smart
90 % of all random TPs play smart
75 % of all random Sorcs play smart
65 % of all random NBs play smart

As a casual player and healer, I don't really care if that dungeon lasts a bit longer or not, I am just hoping for a smart group that doesn't make my day as hard as possible. And if it's like that, I prefer Dragonknights and Templars any day.

Pmarsico9

Not Feeling The Love (Useless changes)

@Shinra The evidence you are presenting above is anecdotal. See while I generally will boot DPS that pull ahead of the tank, standing for that behavior because you are a good healer is simply reinforcing bad behavior. I had a guy doing it last night in a PUG group. I dumped him and found a VR10 Templar DPS so we had a group of 3 Templars (Healer, DPS, and me, the Tank) and a DK who didn't honestly know how to deal damage with his character that well.

That's more the norm. Not such extreme examples. Of course, we had major issues with the last boss of VCOH simply due to the lack of damage the Templar and DK were doing to the adds and lack of damage on the boss. But the issue was that the VR10 Templar actually knew what he was doing. He was well geared in crafted pieces in medium armor with a two hander. He simply could not carry the damage on a rather stringent DPS requirement.

I've made that same run with a PUG NB and Sorc doing DPS and we absolutely shredded the entire run. And the NB and Sorc were very, very aggressive once I pulled things. Again anecdotal, but PUGs are PUGs and you never know. But to say a relatively small community of players is completely bad and place percentages based on things isn't really applicable.

What is applicable, what is all that is applicable, is that Templars need damage buffs in PVE. It's not just in speed runs and Trials.

It should be about bringing the player and not the class as far as the most widely required role is and right now it's not. Templar damage is just awful.

Khivas_Carrick

Not Feeling The Love (Useless changes)

Shinra wrote: »

It look's like you didn't get what I wanted to say. So I will try again.

Templar have low DPS, compared to others. That's a fact. And in Trials & Speed Runs, where only DPS matters for DDs, they stay behind, obviously. There is nothing to argue about that, cause those are facts.

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

In my guild's Trials run I'm the only mDPS Templar, and we have one other Caster DPS Templar, and then a Templar Healer. It's a miracle that I can pull it off and frankly it's only due to me tossing spears to my allies that use Stamina and the rare offheal from my second bar. As for Vet Dungeons, you're off base again and I'm starting to wonder if you really know your class or not, let alone the other classes.

DK's in the top spot makes sense, but the way you put it makes it sound like the Templar should be tanking, not dealing damage. On the DPS parts that matter, single target boss battles, Templars do not deserve that second spot. We can manage CC on adds amazingly well, yes, but actually killing the boss can take some time, whereas the Nightblade and Sorc if they're smart can do both Add Management and single target DPS just fine.

Now from a Support DPS standpoint they'd be the best of course, and would work wonderfully, but that's if the encounters and the other classes actually needed a support DPS. Fact is they don't, and I got lucky that my guild lets me run as I do now, despite using so few of my actual class skills to kill things.

1. Templars don't die, even as DDs.

2. Of course, they pay that with their DPS, and killing the boss will take some more time. ^^for speed runs, that's useless, obviously.

3. You assume that all Nightblades and Sorcs are smart. Sorry to disappoint you, but they are not.

As you sound like one of those elite players only playing dungeons for speed runs, let me clear another thing up.
There are people who don't play like that. So, for me, there are other things that matter, than for you. To clear things up, I will give you an example of my evening:

I get home from work and want to chill in some vet dungeons. So I will look in my guild or collect some randoms. Now I get one capable dk tank, and as DDs one Sorc and one Nightblade.
Well, so far, so good. The dungeon starts, and every mob fight goes like that: Nightblade jumps in first, pulls all the aggro. Next is Sorc, casting his impluse, running in the middle of the group of enemies and casting his impulse. They absorb quite a lot of damage, red circles on the ground don't matter for those two.
Of course, I am a good healer, so nothing to worry about jet. Then, some time later, me and the sorc waiting for the dk tank who is switching some skills, the nightblade, as he thinks he is the best, runs further ahead and dies an honorable death. Of course, I am the healer, so it's my fault.
With bosses, the nightblade plays the same way. Close range DD without any protection, of course never ever blocking and ignoring any red circle. Well, I am the healer, I should just heal him, right?
Meanwhile, the Sorc stands far away, casting Force Shocks, and any adds spawned by the boss attack me without being stopped or attacked by anybody, and i have to run around like a madman, and still healing everybody to save what's left.

So my list rather says which classes are preferable DDs, instead of which are potentially the best. Put like that, it's something llike that:

95 % of all random DKs play smart
90 % of all random TPs play smart
75 % of all random Sorcs play smart
65 % of all random NBs play smart

As a casual player and healer, I don't really care if that dungeon lasts a bit longer or not, I am just hoping for a smart group that doesn't make my day as hard as possible. And if it's like that, I prefer Dragonknights and Templars any day.

1) Tempalrs do die quite often as DPS, stop trying to say we don't.

2) Yea, we pay for it when we shouldn't have to at all.

3) I assume none of that, I just simply know they have a better tool set than we do, something you seem to constantly overlook and try to change what I say into something else. It's failing, so please stop trying.

Also, for a casual player and healer, not a damn bit of this should matter to you, and frankly you're not in the nit and grit of the game. Many others want to be the elite speed runners and trial players but they don't want to be pigeonholed into a certain type of play. They want the character they have invested so much time and love into to be able to succeed in their goals just the same as other players have.

I agree with @Pmarsico9‌ about how your "evidence" isn't really evidence at all, and that you're complaining about a bad run when all you did was let it happen. If you do nothing to prevent it, you did everything to cause it, and with that said, I tell you again that you're wrong and that Templars should not be penalized for DPS with bad animations, ridiculous cast times, low damage, and overpriced spells all because we have a healing tree that's not a real advantage since everybody can become a healer with a healing off-bar.

booksmcread

Not Feeling The Love (Useless changes)

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

ZoS know Templar magicka recovery is an issue. They have acknowledged it is an issue. They just refuse to do anything about it.

It is similar to the issue with Stamina using the same pool for abilities and for sprint/dodge/block/breakfree. The players keep saying it is an issue, but ZoS tries weak and peripheral individual fixes (10% damage here, a reduced radius there) rather than acknowledging the gaping, obvious core problem.

I believe this has been said a hundred-thousand times and yet ZoS sticks to their policy of simple baby steps. Perhaps it's for the best, perhaps not, we shall see in time. I don't think this game will die out, but I don't think it's going to do their company well either.

I am all for baby steps as an approach to finding the right balance. It's a smart way to avoid those massive pendulum swings in class balance that happen a lot in other games. However, that entails taking many small steps towards finding a solution. As far as I can remember, there has only been one or two steps taken in addressing the community's concerns about Templars over the past seven months.

Pmarsico9

Not Feeling The Love (Useless changes)

booksmcread wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

ZoS know Templar magicka recovery is an issue. They have acknowledged it is an issue. They just refuse to do anything about it.

It is similar to the issue with Stamina using the same pool for abilities and for sprint/dodge/block/breakfree. The players keep saying it is an issue, but ZoS tries weak and peripheral individual fixes (10% damage here, a reduced radius there) rather than acknowledging the gaping, obvious core problem.

I believe this has been said a hundred-thousand times and yet ZoS sticks to their policy of simple baby steps. Perhaps it's for the best, perhaps not, we shall see in time. I don't think this game will die out, but I don't think it's going to do their company well either.

I am all for baby steps as an approach to finding the right balance. It's a smart way to avoid those massive pendulum swings in class balance that happen a lot in other games. However, that entails taking many small steps towards finding a solution. As far as I can remember, there has only been one or two steps taken in addressing the community's concerns about Templars over the past seven months.

That's absolutely true. And in this case, it's not hard to understand that the fixes themselves that need made don't have to hugely sweeping, but should in fact be done to address major mechanical shortcomings and passives that suck compare to other classes.

I mean Eclipse is a completely dead skill.

Still_Mind

Ehhh? (You like it and hate it and need to explain how)

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

booksmcread wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

ZoS know Templar magicka recovery is an issue. They have acknowledged it is an issue. They just refuse to do anything about it.

It is similar to the issue with Stamina using the same pool for abilities and for sprint/dodge/block/breakfree. The players keep saying it is an issue, but ZoS tries weak and peripheral individual fixes (10% damage here, a reduced radius there) rather than acknowledging the gaping, obvious core problem.

I believe this has been said a hundred-thousand times and yet ZoS sticks to their policy of simple baby steps. Perhaps it's for the best, perhaps not, we shall see in time. I don't think this game will die out, but I don't think it's going to do their company well either.

I am all for baby steps as an approach to finding the right balance. It's a smart way to avoid those massive pendulum swings in class balance that happen a lot in other games. However, that entails taking many small steps towards finding a solution. As far as I can remember, there has only been one or two steps taken in addressing the community's concerns about Templars over the past seven months.

That's absolutely true. And in this case, it's not hard to understand that the fixes themselves that need made don't have to hugely sweeping, but should in fact be done to address major mechanical shortcomings and passives that suck compare to other classes.

I mean Eclipse is a completely dead skill.

Well, Temps have a lot of cool, unique mechanics, like Eclipse and Backlash... Wish ZOE did something to make those skills more useful.

Pmarsico9

Not Feeling The Love (Useless changes)

Still_Mind wrote: »

Well, Temps have a lot of cool, unique mechanics, like Eclipse and Backlash... Wish ZOE did something to make those skills more useful.

I find them both to not be cool at all. I've never had any PVP or PVE situations where I thought "lolthisissoooocool" with either spell. In fact, I've never had a single situation where I found them to even be remotely decent.

Temps would be much better served actually being able to deal damage on par with other classes than being the one class that is "support."

Khivas_Carrick

Not Feeling The Love (Useless changes)

booksmcread wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

ZoS know Templar magicka recovery is an issue. They have acknowledged it is an issue. They just refuse to do anything about it.

It is similar to the issue with Stamina using the same pool for abilities and for sprint/dodge/block/breakfree. The players keep saying it is an issue, but ZoS tries weak and peripheral individual fixes (10% damage here, a reduced radius there) rather than acknowledging the gaping, obvious core problem.

I believe this has been said a hundred-thousand times and yet ZoS sticks to their policy of simple baby steps. Perhaps it's for the best, perhaps not, we shall see in time. I don't think this game will die out, but I don't think it's going to do their company well either.

I am all for baby steps as an approach to finding the right balance. It's a smart way to avoid those massive pendulum swings in class balance that happen a lot in other games. However, that entails taking many small steps towards finding a solution. As far as I can remember, there has only been one or two steps taken in addressing the community's concerns about Templars over the past seven months.

That actually puts it in a much nicer light, I thank you for that.

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Still_Mind wrote: »

Well, Temps have a lot of cool, unique mechanics, like Eclipse and Backlash... Wish ZOE did something to make those skills more useful.

I find them both to not be cool at all. I've never had any PVP or PVE situations where I thought "lolthisissoooocool" with either spell. In fact, I've never had a single situation where I found them to even be remotely decent.

Temps would be much better served actually being able to deal damage on par with other classes than being the one class that is "support."

Or at the very least, make it so our support is invaluable and thus our class as a whole is desirable to others.

Shinra

Feeling The Love (Useful changes)

Well, now you got my point and can argue against it

Of course I know the lacking DPS of my own class, I just wanted to point out that it isn't omnipresent whereever you go.

One thing I still want to mention, those off-heal classes can heal quite good in trials, but not really in groups of four, because, well, the lack of breath of life restricts the movement of the whole group, making it quite hard to heal while evading red circles and such. @Khivas_Carrick those classes lack as much healing as we lack DPS. You won't find a (main) healer that isn't templar in hard environment like hardmode dragonstar arena. And even in AA you will need at least one templar healing for the last two bosses. (Don't know all that much about Hel Ra cause I have only been there twice)

About Eclipse, I actually use that spell when questing solo in cyrodiil, and it's probably the first thing I do to any mage who thinks he can attack me. Eclipse is never used by anybody else, so those sorcerers don't know what it's doing and that you can break free, so they will first use some light or heavy attacks against themselves and ultimately knock themself down with crystal shards. Only after that they CC-break it. I even use that spell against some spellcaster bosses in Cyrodiil to increase my lousy DPS a bit. The Issue with Eclipse is, that you can't remove the breakfree because those 7.2 seconds would probably be way too long.

Still, Eclipse would love some change because it can hardly be used in most cases and many bosses are imune against it (while the sword&shield skill still works, as well as the DKs ability) Backlash would love a small decrease in cooldown, at least, and blinding light a little increase in range.

Well, I know that more classes are lacking a few things and I really hope that the upcoming spellcrafting will remove many of those things.
Like, more DoTs (and DPS) for Templars, some new interesting support, as well as CC for every class, and some long-range healing for sorcs, DKs and NBs.
Some selfheal for sorcerers would be nice too, and some tanky skills for everybody. Not to forget some new good ultis, and lots of cool other stuff. Some new good damage shield would be awesome, and spells to increase spell and weapon damage.

Yeah, I am probably too optimistic and place too many hopes in spellcrafting, but it will undouptedly bring some changes to the inbalance between all classes.

Khivas_Carrick

Not Feeling The Love (Useless changes)

You know that makes little sense about other classes not being able to heal as well as they do in trials. You act like they can't cast Healing Springs and such Resto Staff spells while on the move or something (Something that even I do quite often) and have to stand there, aim it, then run.

If anything you got it backwards; Templars are best at healing Trials because their heals are so damn big and strong, while the other classes can heal trials if they use their other abilities to negate the damage the raid group will encounter, and both types can heal just fine in 4mans.

In fact, let's look at it this way: An AA Group has not a single Sorc in it, not one, thus more than a few strats that required the chained use of Negates suddenly won't work. At this point most people give up but not my group. Instead we have our two Templar Healers rotate their Remembrance in conjunction with our Nightblades who use their Veils. It worked amazingly well to soak up/cover the damage with heals, almost more cleanly than a negate dare I say. The only issue we had after that was the slight bit of slowed DPS due to my and another Templar presence as DPS instead of a healer or a tank.

But alas therein lies the issue; Our heals with another class' utility was plenty enough to cover another way to down the bosses, but if we were to be paired up on pure DPS races, our group would've failed because no matter what we did/do as Templars, we wouldn't be able to beat the boss because we simply don't stack up, even with the tried and true Dress-And-Stick Combo, because our own class skills work against us.

This is why we didn't try hard mode Mage because we knew we would fail, hell we nearly failed regular mode due to a lack of DPS.

That's what @Pmarsico9 and I are talking about. Yes we have heals, big yay there, but other classes can heal just fine and in some cases better due to their own powerful utilities, whereas a Templar and now in this latest patch Nightblades are screwed because their damage is pretty much gimp yet their minor utilities which should make them stand out, don't.

That's what I mean. That's why there's outrage and outcry. That's why a Templar looks at others like they have three heads when they say "Templars are just fine! Overpowered even!", and why we lose serious faith in @ZoS when they don't put up a single change to the class when they said they would.

Thejollygreenone

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

You know that makes little sense about other classes not being able to heal as well as they do in trials. You act like they can't cast Healing Springs and such Resto Staff spells while on the move or something (Something that even I do quite often) and have to stand there, aim it, then run.

[snip...]

I believe the point he was making was not about the mobility of the caster, but the group. If you're only big source of healing with resto staff is one where everyone has to stay within 12m of eachother (healing springs), then that's a pretty large movement limitation for the entire raid, which sometimes will compromise a strategy.

Furthermore, Templar simply has superior burst heals. Being able to crit heal someone for 1.1k all at once is pretty damn necessary for healing a main tank especially, and it's not possible with a resto staff. The largest non-hot heal there is for resto staff is combat prayer, which is pretty small. Add on top of that the fact that you can't hit people across the room with it...

Yeah, Templars are the best healers in the game, and are a necessary part to a large majority of trial bosses. So I think @Shinra has a point in saying that what Templars lack in DPS they make up for in healing superiority.

Although, that's certainly no excuse to keep Templars with inferior dps, ideally all classes should be able to main heal and all classes should be able to compete as dps.

But maybe that's just my personal idealism coming through, it just doesn't make sense to me that anyone would actually think it's ok for a class to be preforming less as a dps than any other class in a game advertised to play as you want. ^.^

Pmarsico9

Not Feeling The Love (Useless changes)

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

You know that makes little sense about other classes not being able to heal as well as they do in trials. You act like they can't cast Healing Springs and such Resto Staff spells while on the move or something (Something that even I do quite often) and have to stand there, aim it, then run.

[snip...]

I believe the point he was making was not about the mobility of the caster, but the group. If you're only big source of healing with resto staff is one where everyone has to stay within 12m of eachother (healing springs), then that's a pretty large movement limitation for the entire raid, which sometimes will compromise a strategy.

Furthermore, Templar simply has superior burst heals. Being able to crit heal someone for 1.1k all at once is pretty damn necessary for healing a main tank especially, and it's not possible with a resto staff. The largest non-hot heal there is for resto staff is combat prayer, which is pretty small. Add on top of that the fact that you can't hit people across the room with it...

Yeah, Templars are the best healers in the game, and are a necessary part to a large majority of trial bosses. So I think @Shinra has a point in saying that what Templars lack in DPS they make up for in healing superiority.

Although, that's certainly no excuse to keep Templars with inferior dps, ideally all classes should be able to main heal and all classes should be able to compete as dps.

But maybe that's just my personal idealism coming through, it just doesn't make sense to me that anyone would actually think it's ok for a class to be preforming less as a dps than any other class in a game advertised to play as you want. ^.^

I view this differently simply because that healing advantage isn't really that great. Anybody can have a resto staff or a class CD on their bars. As such, that healing advantage isn't as large as you think.

It's bad logic to think on the terms of "Because X is good at X, Y is good at Y" when you are talking about a game with 4 classes. And one of those classes has no viable DPS spec, when DPS requires the most slots in any game.

In fact, it's like the old Ret Pally argument that existed in WoW for that game's first 6 years.

"You can heal, so you shouldn't be able to DPS." That's so effing stupid........because anybody can heal. If solid damage delivery systems required 5 buttons for Templars, there's no advantage to a Templar vs. any other class because you can all swap to a resto staff loadout and heal.........

And don't think that ONLY healers use Resto Staves in Trials and Dungeons. Combat Prayer's buff is a scaling monster that most will try to keep up. It's just that some classes actually have valuable damage buttons to put on that same loadout.........and Templars don't.

BugCollector

Not Feeling The Love (Useless changes)

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

You know that makes little sense about other classes not being able to heal as well as they do in trials. You act like they can't cast Healing Springs and such Resto Staff spells while on the move or something (Something that even I do quite often) and have to stand there, aim it, then run.

[snip...]

I believe the point he was making was not about the mobility of the caster, but the group. If you're only big source of healing with resto staff is one where everyone has to stay within 12m of eachother (healing springs), then that's a pretty large movement limitation for the entire raid, which sometimes will compromise a strategy.

Furthermore, Templar simply has superior burst heals. Being able to crit heal someone for 1.1k all at once is pretty damn necessary for healing a main tank especially, and it's not possible with a resto staff. The largest non-hot heal there is for resto staff is combat prayer, which is pretty small. Add on top of that the fact that you can't hit people across the room with it...

Yeah, Templars are the best healers in the game, and are a necessary part to a large majority of trial bosses. So I think @Shinra has a point in saying that what Templars lack in DPS they make up for in healing superiority.

Although, that's certainly no excuse to keep Templars with inferior dps, ideally all classes should be able to main heal and all classes should be able to compete as dps.

But maybe that's just my personal idealism coming through, it just doesn't make sense to me that anyone would actually think it's ok for a class to be preforming less as a dps than any other class in a game advertised to play as you want. ^.^

I view this differently simply because that healing advantage isn't really that great. Anybody can have a resto staff or a class CD on their bars. As such, that healing advantage isn't as large as you think.

It's bad logic to think on the terms of "Because X is good at X, Y is good at Y" when you are talking about a game with 4 classes. And one of those classes has no viable DPS spec, when DPS requires the most slots in any game.

In fact, it's like the old Ret Pally argument that existed in WoW for that game's first 6 years.

"You can heal, so you shouldn't be able to DPS." That's so effing stupid........because anybody can heal. If solid damage delivery systems required 5 buttons for Templars, there's no advantage to a Templar vs. any other class because you can all swap to a resto staff loadout and heal.........

And don't think that ONLY healers use Resto Staves in Trials and Dungeons. Combat Prayer's buff is a scaling monster that most will try to keep up. It's just that some classes actually have valuable damage buttons to put on that same loadout.........and Templars don't.

I agree.

And think about it. Templars have indeed the best heal in the game, but ONLY for group support, otherwise Dragonknights have an even better heal (Green Dragon Blood) + they have very good DPS.

So why can't we have better DPS? I'm not asking to make us the best DPS'ers in the game, just more on par with other classes.

ATM, Templars only shine in supporting roles...

Thejollygreenone

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

You know that makes little sense about other classes not being able to heal as well as they do in trials. You act like they can't cast Healing Springs and such Resto Staff spells while on the move or something (Something that even I do quite often) and have to stand there, aim it, then run.

[snip...]

I believe the point he was making was not about the mobility of the caster, but the group. If you're only big source of healing with resto staff is one where everyone has to stay within 12m of eachother (healing springs), then that's a pretty large movement limitation for the entire raid, which sometimes will compromise a strategy.

Furthermore, Templar simply has superior burst heals. Being able to crit heal someone for 1.1k all at once is pretty damn necessary for healing a main tank especially, and it's not possible with a resto staff. The largest non-hot heal there is for resto staff is combat prayer, which is pretty small. Add on top of that the fact that you can't hit people across the room with it...

Yeah, Templars are the best healers in the game, and are a necessary part to a large majority of trial bosses. So I think @Shinra has a point in saying that what Templars lack in DPS they make up for in healing superiority.

Although, that's certainly no excuse to keep Templars with inferior dps, ideally all classes should be able to main heal and all classes should be able to compete as dps.

But maybe that's just my personal idealism coming through, it just doesn't make sense to me that anyone would actually think it's ok for a class to be preforming less as a dps than any other class in a game advertised to play as you want. ^.^

I view this differently simply because that healing advantage isn't really that great. Anybody can have a resto staff or a class CD on their bars. As such, that healing advantage isn't as large as you think.

It's bad logic to think on the terms of "Because X is good at X, Y is good at Y" when you are talking about a game with 4 classes. And one of those classes has no viable DPS spec, when DPS requires the most slots in any game.

In fact, it's like the old Ret Pally argument that existed in WoW for that game's first 6 years.

"You can heal, so you shouldn't be able to DPS." That's so effing stupid........because anybody can heal. If solid damage delivery systems required 5 buttons for Templars, there's no advantage to a Templar vs. any other class because you can all swap to a resto staff loadout and heal.........

And don't think that ONLY healers use Resto Staves in Trials and Dungeons. Combat Prayer's buff is a scaling monster that most will try to keep up. It's just that some classes actually have valuable damage buttons to put on that same loadout.........and Templars don't.

You seem to me missing the bolded part of my post where I said:

"Although, that's certainly no excuse to keep Templars with inferior dps, ideally all classes should be able to main heal and all classes should be able to compete as dps. "

But really, thanks for calling an idea that you imply is mine as 'effing stupid'. Very constructive. Why quote me if you're going to debate a point I never made?

No one's (as far as I know) using that old vanilla wow logic that not every class should be able to dps because they can heal well anymore. If they are, I deem them as someone who just wants their class to stay where it is (on top). But that's neither here nor there, since I'm not one such person, and I do not share the same position as them.

What I'm trying to say is, you completely misunderstood what I was trying to say. I didn't say it's OK that templars are the best healers but can't dps, in fact I stated the opposite. I was trying to state that it's not like templars are just god-awful everywhere.

Until proper balance is made to get templar's pve dps in line, they still have a desired spot as main healer which no one else can fill. That's all I was saying, just trying to shed a silver lining to a hopefully temporary bad situation.

But if you really need someone to demonize about this so badly, by all means. Go ahead and falsely demonize me. I say falsely because, here's the kicker, I've been agreeing with you.

BugCollector wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

You know that makes little sense about other classes not being able to heal as well as they do in trials. You act like they can't cast Healing Springs and such Resto Staff spells while on the move or something (Something that even I do quite often) and have to stand there, aim it, then run.

[snip...]

I believe the point he was making was not about the mobility of the caster, but the group. If you're only big source of healing with resto staff is one where everyone has to stay within 12m of eachother (healing springs), then that's a pretty large movement limitation for the entire raid, which sometimes will compromise a strategy.

Furthermore, Templar simply has superior burst heals. Being able to crit heal someone for 1.1k all at once is pretty damn necessary for healing a main tank especially, and it's not possible with a resto staff. The largest non-hot heal there is for resto staff is combat prayer, which is pretty small. Add on top of that the fact that you can't hit people across the room with it...

Yeah, Templars are the best healers in the game, and are a necessary part to a large majority of trial bosses. So I think @Shinra has a point in saying that what Templars lack in DPS they make up for in healing superiority.

Although, that's certainly no excuse to keep Templars with inferior dps, ideally all classes should be able to main heal and all classes should be able to compete as dps.

But maybe that's just my personal idealism coming through, it just doesn't make sense to me that anyone would actually think it's ok for a class to be preforming less as a dps than any other class in a game advertised to play as you want. ^.^

I view this differently simply because that healing advantage isn't really that great. Anybody can have a resto staff or a class CD on their bars. As such, that healing advantage isn't as large as you think.

It's bad logic to think on the terms of "Because X is good at X, Y is good at Y" when you are talking about a game with 4 classes. And one of those classes has no viable DPS spec, when DPS requires the most slots in any game.

In fact, it's like the old Ret Pally argument that existed in WoW for that game's first 6 years.

"You can heal, so you shouldn't be able to DPS." That's so effing stupid........because anybody can heal. If solid damage delivery systems required 5 buttons for Templars, there's no advantage to a Templar vs. any other class because you can all swap to a resto staff loadout and heal.........

And don't think that ONLY healers use Resto Staves in Trials and Dungeons. Combat Prayer's buff is a scaling monster that most will try to keep up. It's just that some classes actually have valuable damage buttons to put on that same loadout.........and Templars don't.

I agree.

And think about it. Templars have indeed the best heal in the game, but ONLY for group support, otherwise Dragonknights have an even better heal (Green Dragon Blood) + they have very good DPS.

So why can't we have better DPS? I'm not asking to make us the best DPS'ers in the game, just more on par with other classes.

ATM, Templars only shine in supporting roles...

Show me the guy who's telling you templar 'can't have better dps' for balance reasons, and I'll point out to you the guy who's simply afraid of having more competition on the dps scene. I can't really imagine that anyone out there thinks templars SHOULDN'T compete as dps. Maybe I just missed the people saying these things, but it seems like it doesn't exist.

I'm done with this particular line of discussion. Hopefully ZoS actually gets some balance done on this issue and we see templars pulling respectable dps in trials, and we see other classes main healing.

But while we wait for that, I want no part in the strawman-argument-fest occurring here. Just wanted to share my two-cents, not get yelled at for something I never said. Bai now

Lettigall

Not Feeling The Love (Useless changes)

Seems some people thinks that if you choose to play templar you want to be a healer. If class have potential to be be best healer doesn't mean that it can't be dps. For *** sake DK are best tanks and best dps at the same time.

ZoS give us option to be damage dealers!!! Where's your play how you want? Right now it is play how you want but you gonna suck unless you play as healer.

How can you be dps if you have to choose your gear between magicka recovery and damage? Templar magicka sustain still sucks but zos act like they resolved issue.

Thejollygreenone

Lettigall wrote: »

Seems some people thinks that if you choose to play templar you want to be a healer. If class have potential to be be best healer doesn't mean that it can't be dps. For *** sake DK are best tanks and best dps at the same time.

ZoS give us option to be damage dealers!!! Where's your play how you want? Right now it is play how you want but you gonna suck unless you play as healer.

How can you be dps if you have to choose your gear between magicka recovery and damage? Templar magicka sustain still sucks but zos act like they resolved issue.

Seems some people still think that? Who? I haven't noticed any recently.

Magicka sustain sucks for templar, but your stamina regen is amazing. Templars might have a better chance as stamina dps at the moment, although it still wouldn't be fair if you couldn't be a caster Templar as well.

Just might have to wait a bit for ZoS to figure out how to balance magicka based pve dps Templars without overtuning their pvp counterparts.

But yeah, if you're not totally averse to it, I'd suggest trying a stamina build until ZoS actually does balance Templar so they can be magicka dps in pve. It might end up working out well, since stamina builds are on the rise.

Khivas_Carrick

Not Feeling The Love (Useless changes)

I'm going to edit this post when I'm done reading the above, but @Pmarsico9‌ and @Thejollygreenone‌, I believe we're all on the same side here and in a sense even agree, so relax before continuing forward from this point.

Khivas_Carrick

Not Feeling The Love (Useless changes)

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Lettigall wrote: »

Seems some people thinks that if you choose to play templar you want to be a healer. If class have potential to be be best healer doesn't mean that it can't be dps. For *** sake DK are best tanks and best dps at the same time.

ZoS give us option to be damage dealers!!! Where's your play how you want? Right now it is play how you want but you gonna suck unless you play as healer.

How can you be dps if you have to choose your gear between magicka recovery and damage? Templar magicka sustain still sucks but zos act like they resolved issue.

Seems some people still think that? Who? I haven't noticed any recently.

Magicka sustain sucks for templar, but your stamina regen is amazing. Templars might have a better chance as stamina dps at the moment, although it still wouldn't be fair if you couldn't be a caster Templar as well.

Just might have to wait a bit for ZoS to figure out how to balance magicka based pve dps Templars without overtuning their pvp counterparts.

But yeah, if you're not totally averse to it, I'd suggest trying a stamina build until ZoS actually does balance Templar so they can be magicka dps in pve. It might end up working out well, since stamina builds are on the rise.

Yea forget the edit to the above post, I lied.

As for this, no we kind of don't. I mean we could have the best stamina regen but that slot takes up a precious spot for a DPS Skill, so it's a hell of a toss up. Frankly it's also moot since heavy attacks refill stamina now.

Also we are waiting, we've been waiting even for quite some time, and we're going to have to continue to wait it seems. ZoS isn't terrible at their job in terms of balancing, they're terrible at looking at how one change affects the entire picture, not just the spot they happen to be zoomed in on, e.g the recent stealth damage nerf, or how DK's are still super soldiers and how staffs have yet to really be nerfed yet sets involving magicka and stealth have been altered to alter the set itself, not the skill/skill lines making the sets ridiculous.

Also like I've said many times on these forums, I run a Stamina build using a 2H. It's behind all other weapons, but it does get the job done, the only issue there is though is that my class skills, which are highly important since my weapon can't do it alone, tend to fail me because of the current design scheme of my class.

Other than that I believe we're all on the same side here so to speak, and unless a troll happy DK rolls in here I think it's safe to say this debate (which it never really was) is done and we're all agreed that @ZoS needs to really fix the Templar DPS lines to what they were originally meant to be; Awesome.

Thejollygreenone

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Lettigall wrote: »

Seems some people thinks that if you choose to play templar you want to be a healer. If class have potential to be be best healer doesn't mean that it can't be dps. For *** sake DK are best tanks and best dps at the same time.

ZoS give us option to be damage dealers!!! Where's your play how you want? Right now it is play how you want but you gonna suck unless you play as healer.

How can you be dps if you have to choose your gear between magicka recovery and damage? Templar magicka sustain still sucks but zos act like they resolved issue.

Seems some people still think that? Who? I haven't noticed any recently.

Magicka sustain sucks for templar, but your stamina regen is amazing. Templars might have a better chance as stamina dps at the moment, although it still wouldn't be fair if you couldn't be a caster Templar as well.

Just might have to wait a bit for ZoS to figure out how to balance magicka based pve dps Templars without overtuning their pvp counterparts.

But yeah, if you're not totally averse to it, I'd suggest trying a stamina build until ZoS actually does balance Templar so they can be magicka dps in pve. It might end up working out well, since stamina builds are on the rise.

Yea forget the edit to the above post, I lied.

As for this, no we kind of don't. I mean we could have the best stamina regen but that slot takes up a precious spot for a DPS Skill, so it's a hell of a toss up. Frankly it's also moot since heavy attacks refill stamina now.

Also we are waiting, we've been waiting even for quite some time, and we're going to have to continue to wait it seems. ZoS isn't terrible at their job in terms of balancing, they're terrible at looking at how one change affects the entire picture, not just the spot they happen to be zoomed in on, e.g the recent stealth damage nerf, or how DK's are still super soldiers and how staffs have yet to really be nerfed yet sets involving magicka and stealth have been altered to alter the set itself, not the skill/skill lines making the sets ridiculous.

Also like I've said many times on these forums, I run a Stamina build using a 2H. It's behind all other weapons, but it does get the job done, the only issue there is though is that my class skills, which are highly important since my weapon can't do it alone, tend to fail me because of the current design scheme of my class.

Other than that I believe we're all on the same side here so to speak, and unless a troll happy DK rolls in here I think it's safe to say this debate (which it never really was) is done and we're all agreed that @ZoS needs to really fix the Templar DPS lines to what they were originally meant to be; Awesome.

Indeed, I would say we are overall agreeing with eachother.

Though I would still like to debate that the stamina regen templars have access to isn't quite a moot point simply because heavy attacks restore resources now

If it is indeed a moot point, and heavy attacks alone are enough to sustain stamina for stamina builds, why is this not the case for the magicka side of templar dps? Of course no other weapon has as clean of a rotation to fit heavy attacks in as 2h or dual wield, so that was a rhetorical question.

My point being, say you pick a bow templar, (this was my second choice to bow nightblade when the game released on a side note) then having that ability to pop out 80% regen when you were in dire straits would set it apart from other classes, as well as the passive 15%.

Debating it doesn't have a spot on the bar is debating buffs don't have a spot on your bar. While it may be the case for you, there are countless builds that utilized such non-damaging buffs efficiently.

Back on subject, I'm certainly not saying this makes templar stamina dps competitive, I'm not trying to tie this discussion to the state of templar dps as a whole. As I said we do overall agree with eachother, templar on all ends needs a pve dps buff.

My point is that templars have an ability that makes them unique in stamina pve dps builds, whereas a bow build can use this ability and have the compensation that no other class has access to, to such a degree at least.

Of course nightblades have their passive 30% which is in many cases preferable to the templar active, as well as siphoning strikes but that comes at the same disadvantages as templars alternative, and then some.

And DKs have green dragons blood for 40% at a much longer duration active, meaning you have to refresh less for its full effects, but less total potential. Sorcs get really nothing in the ways of hefty stamina regen.

While this doesn't necessarily automatically allow templars to be competitive, since as you mentioned it only really helps bow builds since heavy attacks regain stamina and only 2h and dw use heavy attacks.

But regardless, its an advantage at such potency as no other class has access to. That's an angle to work from if nothing else. For the record I kind of regret going nightblade and not templar largely for this reason :-/

Lettigall

Not Feeling The Love (Useless changes)

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Seems some people still think that? Who? I haven't noticed any recently.

Magicka sustain sucks for templar, but your stamina regen is amazing. Templars might have a better chance as stamina dps at the moment, although it still wouldn't be fair if you couldn't be a caster Templar as well.

Just might have to wait a bit for ZoS to figure out how to balance magicka based pve dps Templars without overtuning their pvp counterparts.

But yeah, if you're not totally averse to it, I'd suggest trying a stamina build until ZoS actually does balance Templar so they can be magicka dps in pve. It might end up working out well, since stamina builds are on the rise.

Mainly devs thinks that templars are healers, see how "much" they did to increase our damage. They even *** nerf super expensive and not so good templar ultimate in next update.

Fixed an issue where the synergy abilities Supernova and Gravity Crush did not have a target limit.

Without light armor templar class skills are pretty much useless for stamina build. They are too damn expensive.

BugCollector

Not Feeling The Love (Useless changes)

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Show me the guy who's telling you templar 'can't have better dps' for balance reasons, and I'll point out to you the guy who's simply afraid of having more competition on the dps scene. I can't really imagine that anyone out there thinks templars SHOULDN'T compete as dps. Maybe I just missed the people saying these things, but it seems like it doesn't exist.

I'm done with this particular line of discussion. Hopefully ZoS actually gets some balance done on this issue and we see templars pulling respectable dps in trials, and we see other classes main healing.

But while we wait for that, I want no part in the strawman-argument-fest occurring here. Just wanted to share my two-cents, not get yelled at for something I never said. Bai now

Yes, I agree with you. Templars should have a more respectable dps, albeit still the lowest. Although there's no need for other classes to heal better, otherwise Templars will still lose their spots in trials. Besides, Resto Staff skills are allready very strong.

Pmarsico9

Not Feeling The Love (Useless changes)

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Lettigall wrote: »

Seems some people thinks that if you choose to play templar you want to be a healer. If class have potential to be be best healer doesn't mean that it can't be dps. For *** sake DK are best tanks and best dps at the same time.

ZoS give us option to be damage dealers!!! Where's your play how you want? Right now it is play how you want but you gonna suck unless you play as healer.

How can you be dps if you have to choose your gear between magicka recovery and damage? Templar magicka sustain still sucks but zos act like they resolved issue.

Seems some people still think that? Who? I haven't noticed any recently.

Magicka sustain sucks for templar, but your stamina regen is amazing. Templars might have a better chance as stamina dps at the moment, although it still wouldn't be fair if you couldn't be a caster Templar as well.

Just might have to wait a bit for ZoS to figure out how to balance magicka based pve dps Templars without overtuning their pvp counterparts.

But yeah, if you're not totally averse to it, I'd suggest trying a stamina build until ZoS actually does balance Templar so they can be magicka dps in pve. It might end up working out well, since stamina builds are on the rise.

Yea forget the edit to the above post, I lied.

As for this, no we kind of don't. I mean we could have the best stamina regen but that slot takes up a precious spot for a DPS Skill, so it's a hell of a toss up. Frankly it's also moot since heavy attacks refill stamina now.

Also we are waiting, we've been waiting even for quite some time, and we're going to have to continue to wait it seems. ZoS isn't terrible at their job in terms of balancing, they're terrible at looking at how one change affects the entire picture, not just the spot they happen to be zoomed in on, e.g the recent stealth damage nerf, or how DK's are still super soldiers and how staffs have yet to really be nerfed yet sets involving magicka and stealth have been altered to alter the set itself, not the skill/skill lines making the sets ridiculous.

Also like I've said many times on these forums, I run a Stamina build using a 2H. It's behind all other weapons, but it does get the job done, the only issue there is though is that my class skills, which are highly important since my weapon can't do it alone, tend to fail me because of the current design scheme of my class.

Other than that I believe we're all on the same side here so to speak, and unless a troll happy DK rolls in here I think it's safe to say this debate (which it never really was) is done and we're all agreed that @ZoS needs to really fix the Templar DPS lines to what they were originally meant to be; Awesome.

Indeed, I would say we are overall agreeing with eachother.

Though I would still like to debate that the stamina regen templars have access to isn't quite a moot point simply because heavy attacks restore resources now

If it is indeed a moot point, and heavy attacks alone are enough to sustain stamina for stamina builds, why is this not the case for the magicka side of templar dps? Of course no other weapon has as clean of a rotation to fit heavy attacks in as 2h or dual wield, so that was a rhetorical question.

My point being, say you pick a bow templar, (this was my second choice to bow nightblade when the game released on a side note) then having that ability to pop out 80% regen when you were in dire straits would set it apart from other classes, as well as the passive 15%.

Debating it doesn't have a spot on the bar is debating buffs don't have a spot on your bar. While it may be the case for you, there are countless builds that utilized such non-damaging buffs efficiently.

Back on subject, I'm certainly not saying this makes templar stamina dps competitive, I'm not trying to tie this discussion to the state of templar dps as a whole. As I said we do overall agree with eachother, templar on all ends needs a pve dps buff.

My point is that templars have an ability that makes them unique in stamina pve dps builds, whereas a bow build can use this ability and have the compensation that no other class has access to, to such a degree at least.

Of course nightblades have their passive 30% which is in many cases preferable to the templar active, as well as siphoning strikes but that comes at the same disadvantages as templars alternative, and then some.

And DKs have green dragons blood for 40% at a much longer duration active, meaning you have to refresh less for its full effects, but less total potential. Sorcs get really nothing in the ways of hefty stamina regen.

While this doesn't necessarily automatically allow templars to be competitive, since as you mentioned it only really helps bow builds since heavy attacks regain stamina and only 2h and dw use heavy attacks.

But regardless, its an advantage at such potency as no other class has access to. That's an angle to work from if nothing else. For the record I kind of regret going nightblade and not templar largely for this reason :-/

I think the way to look at it is that Stamina Weapons overall still aren't exactly where they need to be. Radiant Aura isn't such a boon that it makes Templars any stronger than other classes using the same sets.

Kypho

Feeling The Love (Useful changes)

Templars need a godmode button and iwin button. only then will they feel the love... the most usefull but always unhappy ppl in the universe.

Pmarsico9

Not Feeling The Love (Useless changes)

Kypho wrote: »

Templars need a godmode button and iwin button. only then will they feel the love... the most usefull but always unhappy ppl in the universe.

Yep, Templars are HIGHLY DESIRED DPS in end-game PVE.

Khivas_Carrick

Not Feeling The Love (Useless changes)

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Kypho wrote: »

Templars need a godmode button and iwin button. only then will they feel the love... the most usefull but always unhappy ppl in the universe.

Yep, Templars are HIGHLY DESIRED DPS in end-game PVE.

Totally. Our class skills are amazing for pve. Note my bitter sarcasm.

Shinra

Feeling The Love (Useful changes)

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Totally. Our class skills are amazing for pve. Note my bitter sarcasm.

Our class skills are amazing for pve. For tanking, healing and solo playing.