Templar Changes - Still Not Feeling The Love, Or Are You Feeling It A Little?

Khivas_Carrick

Let me know what you guys think of the Templar changes, because frankly I feel like we're getting shafted yet again and I'm getting real tired of this ***. Shafted.....lol.

Templar

Dawn’s Wrath

Dark Flare: Fixed an issue where this ability’s graphical effect would stay on a target after it was removed.

Reflective Light (Sun Fire morph): Fixed an issue where this ability was applying two snares to secondary targets.

Fixed an issue where the synergy abilities Supernova and Gravity Crush did not have a target limit.

Fixed an issue where the Sun Fire snare duration wasn’t being increased by the Enduring Rays passive.

Aedric Spear

Blazing Spear: Slightly improved your game performance when using this ability.

Spear Shards: Fixed an issue where this ability wasn’t damaging or disorienting stealthed enemies.

Fixed an issue with Focused Charge and Explosive Charge where you could charge through the target.

Restoring Light

Fixed an issue where the Focused Healing passive wasn’t being applied to Rite of Passage healing.

Nox_Aeterna

Not Feeling The Love (Useless changes)

The issue was made clear.

They just ignore it.

Which is something they do often.

timidobserver

Not Feeling The Love (Useless changes)

I expect that Templar won't be getting any significant fixes until the Champion System hits. Once the Champion System hits they will be free to buff certain builds without inadvertantly buffing already over performing builds. For example, they could just apply buffs to the healer path, that the DPS and Tank path won't have access to and vice versa.

As it stands, there is a lot of colleratal damage to making any significant changes to Templar. Adding better magicka management to struggling builds would create invincible super terminators in PVP.

JLB

Not Feeling The Love (Useless changes)

Some minor fixes, nothing about the main Templar problems. Again.

Khivas_Carrick

Not Feeling The Love (Useless changes)

Same as always isn't it. Really though, they wonder why people keep leaving their game....

Chufu

Feeling The Love (Useful changes)

I think the fixes are okay. They are useful.

I think it's hard to keep the balance of the templar.

By the way, here are the german and french translation. I hope that other templars, who don't speak english sooooo well, could follow this discussion.

---

Templer
Zorn der Morgenröte

• Dunkles Aufleuchten: Ein Problem wurde behoben, durch das die grafischen Effekte dieser Fähigkeit auf dem Ziel blieben, nachdem sie entfernt wurde.
• Reflektierendes Licht (Veränderung von Sonnenfeuer): Ein Problem wurde behoben, durch das diese Fähigkeit Zweitziele zweimal verlangsamte.
• Ein Problem wurde behoben, durch das die Synergien „Supernova“ und „Zertrümmernde Schwerkraft“ keine Obergrenze an Zielen hatten.
• Ein Problem wurde behoben, durch das die Wirkungsdauer von „Sonnenfeuer“ nicht durch die passive Fähigkeit „Beständige Strahlen“ erhöht wurde.

Aedrischer Speer

• Lodernder Speer: Die Leistung eures Spielclients beim Einsatz dieser Fähigkeit wurde leicht verbessert.
• Speerscherben: Ein Problem wurde behoben, durch das diese Fähigkeit getarnten Feinden keinen Schaden zufügte oder sie desorientierte.
• Ein Problem wurde behoben, durch das ihr mit „Fokussierter Ansturm“ und „Explosiver Ansturm“ durch das Ziel hindurch stürmen konntet.

Wiederherstellendes Licht

• Fokussierte Heilung: Ein Problem wurde behoben, durch das diese passive Fähigkeit nicht auf die Heiling von „Ritus des Übergangs“ wirkte.

---

Templier
Courroux de l'aube

• Éruption noire : Problème résolu des effets visuels liés à cette compétence qui persistaient sur une cible même après leur suppression.
• Lumière réfléchie (évolution Feu du soleil) : Correction de cette compétence qui appliquait deux pièges sur des cibles secondaires.
• Correction des compétences de synergie Supernova et Anéantissement de gravité qui ne comportaient aucune limite de cible.
• Correction de la durée du piège Feu du soleil qui n'augmentait pas en présence des Rayons persistants passifs.

Lance aedrique

• Lance ardente : Légère amélioration de vos performances de jeu en utilisant cette compétence.
• Éclats de lance : Correction de l'erreur pour cette compétence qui n'infligeait pas de dégâts et ne désorientait pas les ennemis furtifs.
• Correction d'une erreur relative à la Charge concentrée et la Charge explosive qui permettait de charger en passant à travers la cible.

Rétablissement lumineux

• Problème résolu de la Guérison focalisée passive qui ne s'appliquait pas à la guérison du Rite de passage.

TRIP233

Not Feeling The Love (Useless changes)

They know the problems and they didn't fix them. They still have a lot of balancing issues to fix. One of which is Dragonknights still being over powered and Templars being Under powered and Nightblades can't do any AoE.

Khivas_Carrick

Not Feeling The Love (Useless changes)

Chufu wrote: »

I think the fixes are okay. They are useful.

I think it's hard to keep the balance of the templar.

By the way, here are the german and french translation. I hope that other templars, who don't speak english sooooo well, could follow this discussion.

---

Templer
Zorn der Morgenröte

• Dunkles Aufleuchten: Ein Problem wurde behoben, durch das die grafischen Effekte dieser Fähigkeit auf dem Ziel blieben, nachdem sie entfernt wurde.
• Reflektierendes Licht (Veränderung von Sonnenfeuer): Ein Problem wurde behoben, durch das diese Fähigkeit Zweitziele zweimal verlangsamte.
• Ein Problem wurde behoben, durch das die Synergien „Supernova“ und „Zertrümmernde Schwerkraft“ keine Obergrenze an Zielen hatten.
• Ein Problem wurde behoben, durch das die Wirkungsdauer von „Sonnenfeuer“ nicht durch die passive Fähigkeit „Beständige Strahlen“ erhöht wurde.

Aedrischer Speer

• Lodernder Speer: Die Leistung eures Spielclients beim Einsatz dieser Fähigkeit wurde leicht verbessert.
• Speerscherben: Ein Problem wurde behoben, durch das diese Fähigkeit getarnten Feinden keinen Schaden zufügte oder sie desorientierte.
• Ein Problem wurde behoben, durch das ihr mit „Fokussierter Ansturm“ und „Explosiver Ansturm“ durch das Ziel hindurch stürmen konntet.

Wiederherstellendes Licht

• Fokussierte Heilung: Ein Problem wurde behoben, durch das diese passive Fähigkeit nicht auf die Heiling von „Ritus des Übergangs“ wirkte.

---

Templier
Courroux de l'aube

• Éruption noire : Problème résolu des effets visuels liés à cette compétence qui persistaient sur une cible même après leur suppression.
• Lumière réfléchie (évolution Feu du soleil) : Correction de cette compétence qui appliquait deux pièges sur des cibles secondaires.
• Correction des compétences de synergie Supernova et Anéantissement de gravité qui ne comportaient aucune limite de cible.
• Correction de la durée du piège Feu du soleil qui n'augmentait pas en présence des Rayons persistants passifs.

Lance aedrique

• Lance ardente : Légère amélioration de vos performances de jeu en utilisant cette compétence.
• Éclats de lance : Correction de l'erreur pour cette compétence qui n'infligeait pas de dégâts et ne désorientait pas les ennemis furtifs.
• Correction d'une erreur relative à la Charge concentrée et la Charge explosive qui permettait de charger en passant à travers la cible.

Rétablissement lumineux

• Problème résolu de la Guérison focalisée passive qui ne s'appliquait pas à la guérison du Rite de passage.

1) Thank you for posting in the other languages

2) If you can't see the plain as day issues with Templars that can easily be rectified without overpowering them, then I'm not sure what to say. Most if not all of these are easy fixes, a simple increase in damage here, a tweak to a passive there, and bam, we're competitive DPS and Tanks again, not just pigeonholed healers. Getting real tired of being forced to heal all the time if I want to do a trial.

Also Stamina builds need love too, big time.

guybrushtb16_ESO

Not Feeling The Love (Useless changes)

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Also Stamina builds need love too, big time.

At least for sustained damage in pve, stamina builds are parsing very close to magicka builds already and are on the verge of getting ahead with further buffs.

Khivas_Carrick

Not Feeling The Love (Useless changes)

Ehh, yes and no. I should clarify that a bit: Stamina builds that use 2H and not on a DK or NB need a little love XD

Or more accurately, Templars and Sorcs could stand some love when it comes to using things outside their typical stereotypes of healers and mages.

I say this as I use a 2H as a Templar with full Stam, although I'm debating going back to full Magicka and blending Medium and Light Armor for a hybrid play of Melee with Spells.

Pmarsico9

Not Feeling The Love (Useless changes)

Here's the problem:

They have a certain value in the scope of things in the restoring light tree.

That value is not reality. As such, it's ridiculous that they haven't at least tried something with the Purifying Light Morph of Backlash.........since it's complete garbage and serves no purpose at all.

Khivas_Carrick

Not Feeling The Love (Useless changes)

Actually I healed for 73k in a Spindle run with Purifying Light XD and get around 60k on avg in most vet dungeons if/when people stand in it. I play my templar supporty, so it works in that vein, but isn't often used that way since others can do just fine without being a Templar while at the same time nuking things more.

All in all I still agree with you that things could definitely be better for us.

Pmarsico9

Not Feeling The Love (Useless changes)

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Actually I healed for 73k in a Spindle run with Purifying Light XD and get around 60k on avg in most vet dungeons if/when people stand in it. I play my templar supporty, so it works in that vein, but isn't often used that way since others can do just fine without being a Templar while at the same time nuking things more.

All in all I still agree with you that things could definitely be better for us.

It's really worthless though. If you need to put tiny puddles of healing on the ground your healer isn't very good.

Khivas_Carrick

Not Feeling The Love (Useless changes)

Not so much a need as it is a bonus. The healer was well competent enough to heal, but I doubt anybody will ever say no to something that makes it easier for them XD

Pmarsico9

Not Feeling The Love (Useless changes)

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Not so much a need as it is a bonus. The healer was well competent enough to heal, but I doubt anybody will ever say no to something that makes it easier for them XD

Honestly, it doesn't. It simply turns their magicka further into overheals. The volume of Heals Per cast, especially as a Templar Healer using Regen/Purify/Burst (either Lingering or BoL) will pump out so much HPS as smart heals that if combat analysis was more sophisticated, people would be shocked how crazy the amount of overhealing is in this game.

Khivas_Carrick

Not Feeling The Love (Useless changes)

That much is true, yes, but what if the healer had a few more DPS skills on their toolbar? Or perhaps you could not be so angry every time you look at Templar Skills and see that some people make it work XD

Now this is the part where I look at them and freak out because Templar skills are technically working as intended......Just nobody is really that bad at this game as to need support of any kind outside of basic stuff a healer can already throw out on their own.

Hell, WoW and SWTOR did a better job with Support Group Abilities than this game and they only had like 2 or 3 per multi-spec class lol

Pmarsico9

Not Feeling The Love (Useless changes)

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

That much is true, yes, but what if the healer had a few more DPS skills on their toolbar? Or perhaps you could not be so angry every time you look at Templar Skills and see that some people make it work XD

Now this is the part where I look at them and freak out because Templar skills are technically working as intended......Just nobody is really that bad at this game as to need support of any kind outside of basic stuff a healer can already throw out on their own.

Hell, WoW and SWTOR did a better job with Support Group Abilities than this game and they only had like 2 or 3 per multi-spec class lol

WoW actually had an entire support meta game in BC that they scrapped.

The issue is that this is much more of an action RPG than WoW and the entire idea of Support only works in PVP because so much of the game rotates around the individual's reaction time. Way more than tracking procs and spamming X until Y while maintaining Z that WoW's combat is about. Especially considering how much more limited the tank role's impact is.

The healing role has to be extremely powerful in this game and as such, even a mediocre healer won't have trouble keeping somebody up. And considering that heavy resto staff attacks are a primary form of magicka regen, it doesn't really pay to have a DPS'er who is sacrificing DPS to help heal. Especially considering that anybody can swap to a resto staff and physically heal if needed.

Which is where the tank is actually the only viable support person in PVE simply because they can't do a ton of damage with the sword and shield equipped compared to other weapon loadouts.

Khivas_Carrick

Not Feeling The Love (Useless changes)

Which is why I'm pissed as all hell at how Templar's and melee are currently set up. Zero love from the abilities we posses, zero.

Well maybe not zero but you get what I mean, we're on the same page. Just like every f***ing game in existence a class can only do what it's built to do, and if a class has every option available, it doesn't mean it gets to do all 3-6-9 at once, it gets to do just that one because it has be tailored to that one. Templars do not have that, we get shafted constantly into the same *** on a different day while everybody else gets to have their cake and eat it too.

Pmarsico9

Not Feeling The Love (Useless changes)

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Which is why I'm pissed as all hell at how Templar's and melee are currently set up. Zero love from the abilities we posses, zero.

Well maybe not zero but you get what I mean, we're on the same page. Just like every f***ing game in existence a class can only do what it's built to do, and if a class has every option available, it doesn't mean it gets to do all 3-6-9 at once, it gets to do just that one because it has be tailored to that one. Templars do not have that, we get shafted constantly into the same *** on a different day while everybody else gets to have their cake and eat it too.

They need to fix Dawn's Wrath. It's that simple. Backlash, Solar Flare, and Vamp's Bane have to combine to create solid and sustainable DPS equal to Sorcs, NB's, and DK's.

Stamina and weapons overall, again, are a separate issue and one that should be addressed flatly.

Khivas_Carrick

Not Feeling The Love (Useless changes)

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Which is why I'm pissed as all hell at how Templar's and melee are currently set up. Zero love from the abilities we posses, zero.

Well maybe not zero but you get what I mean, we're on the same page. Just like every f***ing game in existence a class can only do what it's built to do, and if a class has every option available, it doesn't mean it gets to do all 3-6-9 at once, it gets to do just that one because it has be tailored to that one. Templars do not have that, we get shafted constantly into the same *** on a different day while everybody else gets to have their cake and eat it too.

They need to fix Dawn's Wrath. It's that simple. Backlash, Solar Flare, and Vamp's Bane have to combine to create solid and sustainable DPS equal to Sorcs, NB's, and DK's.

Stamina and weapons overall, again, are a separate issue and one that should be addressed flatly.

^

EDIT*

Simple *** can be done with each skill too, literally all you gotta do is make Backlash stack so more than one Templar can use it, and make it instant cast. If- You know what I'm going to make yet another thread about Dawn's Wrath ***, hang on.

Pmarsico9

Not Feeling The Love (Useless changes)

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Which is why I'm pissed as all hell at how Templar's and melee are currently set up. Zero love from the abilities we posses, zero.

Well maybe not zero but you get what I mean, we're on the same page. Just like every f***ing game in existence a class can only do what it's built to do, and if a class has every option available, it doesn't mean it gets to do all 3-6-9 at once, it gets to do just that one because it has be tailored to that one. Templars do not have that, we get shafted constantly into the same *** on a different day while everybody else gets to have their cake and eat it too.

They need to fix Dawn's Wrath. It's that simple. Backlash, Solar Flare, and Vamp's Bane have to combine to create solid and sustainable DPS equal to Sorcs, NB's, and DK's.

Stamina and weapons overall, again, are a separate issue and one that should be addressed flatly.

^

EDIT*

Simple *** can be done with each skill too, literally all you gotta do is make Backlash stack so more than one Templar can use it, and make it instant cast. If- You know what I'm going to make yet another thread about Dawn's Wrath ***, hang on.

No, it's really not that simple. Backlash's burst is too high for PVP if it actually scaled. Backlash can stay as it is and be a morph of a long duration DoT since DoTs are completely non-threatening in this game's PVP.

Then they can figure out how to fix Dark Flare's DPCT issues from there......make it an insta-proc ala Crystal Frags, make it instant period, make the weapon damage debuff actually work just for the Templar casting it.

Khivas_Carrick

Not Feeling The Love (Useless changes)

Or they could've made the debuff work as an extended time thing so everybody can benefit from it more than once.

Still_Mind

Ehhh? (You like it and hate it and need to explain how)

So much passion here. I can't say I share it so strongly, because my first Templar is a dedicated healer, and I'm pretty much rolling with that exclusively, and my other Templar is a Stam fighter, so I rely more on weapon and guild skills.

But there's definitely a few things bugging me to no end - first, eclipse shouldn't be considered CC. It should be brought in line with dragon scale in this regard. Second, I think Backlash should be instant cast - at least one of its morphs. Third, where's class AoE CC? \sadpanda

Anyhow, my take on the current state of things.

Shinra

Feeling The Love (Useful changes)

It feels like I am the only one here who actually likes his templar...

1. With Puncturing Sweep, we have one pretty strong AoE DD CC Heal Skill. Connected with Piercing Spear and Burning Light, it gets even stronger. (really, is there anything this skill can't do? I would even call that one OP)
2. With Blazing Shield, we have probably the strongest Solo-Shield in the whole game. (In groups, DK Obsidian Shield is probably just as strong. Sorc Shield needs love...)
3. With Restoring Focus, we have a Defensive Skill that can be called decent, at least. (But weaker than what dk and sorc can do, probably, since it's bad against AoE)
4. With Breath of Life, we have the strongest Heal in the game.
5. With Reflective Light, we probably have the best long-range AoE DoT in the game.
6. And of course, Extended Ritual connected with Focused Healing (and Breath of Life) is just insane
7. Oh, not to forget, Blinding Flashes gives a decent AoE CC to round things up.

Of course, there are other strong templar-skills as well, and of course there are some weak ones as well. But that's true for all classes, not only templars. And it needs some fixing, since it really restricts builds that some skills aren't really useful.


All that said, only one more thing, and that is simple math. Because of those enrage timers in trials, quite a few groups only take 1-2 templars with them (one healer, and maybe one tank). Just because our dps isn't (and probably shouldn't be, since we are templars and not barbarians or berserkers) as high as the dps of other classes, and trials don't leave any room for anybody to take his time.
So yeah, 1-2 max. templars, out of twelve people.

Oh, and as the end of my comment, play what you want, it's Eso after all but not dd templars in trials, those not. Play what I want you to want

But really, I think those trials are more at fault than our templars.

Khivas_Carrick

Not Feeling The Love (Useless changes)

Shinra wrote: »

It feels like I am the only one here who actually likes his templar...

1. With Puncturing Sweep, we have one pretty strong AoE DD CC Heal Skill. Connected with Piercing Spear and Burning Light, it gets even stronger. (really, is there anything this skill can't do? I would even call that one OP)
2. With Blazing Shield, we have probably the strongest Solo-Shield in the whole game. (In groups, DK Obsidian Shield is probably just as strong. Sorc Shield needs love...)
3. With Restoring Focus, we have a Defensive Skill that can be called decent, at least. (But weaker than what dk and sorc can do, probably, since it's bad against AoE)
4. With Breath of Life, we have the strongest Heal in the game.
5. With Reflective Light, we probably have the best long-range AoE DoT in the game.
6. And of course, Extended Ritual connected with Focused Healing (and Breath of Life) is just insane
7. Oh, not to forget, Blinding Flashes gives a decent AoE CC to round things up.

Of course, there are other strong templar-skills as well, and of course there are some weak ones as well. But that's true for all classes, not only templars. And it needs some fixing, since it really restricts builds that some skills aren't really useful.


All that said, only one more thing, and that is simple math. Because of those enrage timers in trials, quite a few groups only take 1-2 templars with them (one healer, and maybe one tank). Just because our dps isn't (and probably shouldn't be, since we are templars and not barbarians or berserkers) as high as the dps of other classes, and trials don't leave any room for anybody to take his time.
So yeah, 1-2 max. templars, out of twelve people.

Oh, and as the end of my comment, play what you want, it's Eso after all but not dd templars in trials, those not. Play what I want you to want

But really, I think those trials are more at fault than our templars.

1) That skill is indeed, imho, OP, and a poor excuse as to why the rest of our DPS skills are in a sorry state.
2) It's baller, but it's not THAT baller. It's great, don't get me wrong now, but other classes have a shield and one of them is just as amazing as this one in it's own right, among having other amazing things.
3) Ehh, not really. Our's is a drop spot AoE, it needs to be
4)Agreed, although it rips our magicka apart if it needs to be spammed.
5) Vampire's bane* is the one you're thinking of, and even then it's only one target. Great for Single Target, although it's still a little lack luster.
6)That delay get's people killed though, and in PvP.....lols
7) Decent? No, not really. It's best use is for tank survivability and PvP miss chances.

There aren't any stronger Templar skills because the ones we have all focus on healing or chucking a spear at somebody's face, which you'd think would be stronger than what they currently are. I will tell you however that if you honestly think that Templars shouldn't be equal in DPS to the other classes due to "Them being Templars and not Barbarians or Berserkers " I am going to now look at you with such scrutiny that not even Bill Clinton can sweet talk his way out of it.

I'll even be nice and instead of calling you out on how foolish of a line of thought that is I'll just remind you of the Knights Templar during the Crusades, the guys that get a bad rap in Assassin's Creed and are considered the Elite Military Special Forces of the Medieval time period. Not to mention the lovely and replayed for a reason trope of a Knight In Shining Armor.

You may proceed to try and say whatever to me now but know that anything you say will be taken with a kilo of salt and promptly laughed away. The trials aren't at fault either so to speak (there are design flaws, yes, but not they're not so bad) but a fault of the Class System Design. DPS Races are a common thing and aren't at all a problem. The problems that arise from DPS races only occurs when (A) A class or two struggle in DPS as opposed to the other classes, or (B) The classes in general combined aren't strong enough to down the *** no matter what.

Other than that.....No that's, yea that's all I got for now.

Proceed.

Shinra

Feeling The Love (Useful changes)

Well, our opinions in templar differ, nothing to do about that.

But if it's like that, I have one question for you. Do you think that templars are weaker (not in dps, but overall) when battling 1 vs 1 in cyrodiil, or when fighting against skull bosses and similar in PvE? And I don't mean the time they need, I mean if they can take on the same bosses that sorcs, dragonknights or nightblades are able to take on.

And the same question when battling in a group or zerg. do you think that templars can contribute less to their side of the team than other classes? Please, again, don't only look into (AoE) dps, but CC-support skills as well. (everything but healing, we know that templars are good at that)

And nope, I wouldn't know how to answer those questions myself.

Khivas_Carrick

Not Feeling The Love (Useless changes)

1vs1 in Cyrodiil depends on if it's a straight up fight or if stealth is involved. In Stealth, NB wins, easily. Outside of Stealth damn near everybody can really *** up a Templar's day depending on how that Templar is specced, and even if "they're specced right", the Templar will have a challenge on his hands, which in my opinion is a good thing.

Competition breeds excellence, and as long as competition and choices remain, you have something good on your hands.

As for the CC, no, Templars fail horribly in terms of CC, worst there is, or at least it's tied for worst. That said it isn't terrible, but it's just plain not desirable in any way to have a Templar try and CC anything using their class skills. Fighting Zergs is another matter as we then leave class skill issues to overall game mechanics, mainly Destro Staffs and AoE in general.

Pmarsico9

Not Feeling The Love (Useless changes)

Here's the thing:

Templars are very strong 1v1, but at the same time, I think Dragon Knights are stronger in a lot of ways in 1v1 situations.

In group PVP, the class isn't as great. For extended periods of time, Grand Healing is superior. For PVP DPS it is built for 1v1. But ultimately, being a class tied completely to melee for decent damage in PVP is a big negative and drawback. People who don't blow immovable against Puncturing Sweeps spam whine about how OP it is. People who exploit Blazing Shield make it seem OP.

But overall, it's easier to play a Sorc healer with endless magicka or a DK with solo CD's that overcome what Templar CDs, tied to group utility, do not as reliably or as easily. How many of you have ever seen Green Dragon Blood heal the person next to the DK? How many times have you been getting trained and went to pop Breath of Life or Honor the Dead and not had it go off on you at all?

With that said, having the only healing ult, as underwhelming as it is, and Ritual of Purification do provide some niche utility.

I know it's happened to me.

In group PVE as tanks, there's no class more survivable or that sacrifices less to tank. DK tanks give up essentially the top potential DPS class to tank. A templar can simultaneously help heal and tank. And healing seems to do a really good job at pissing off everything nearby. So it passively works to tank with. But many groups prefer the reliability of Talons and simply put you can't out aggro AOE DPS in this game even with Tab-taunt spam. As such, the class could really use an AOE CC ala hysteria or talons for tanking. Aside from that, what would you rate the survivability? Is it that much more than a Sorc or DK? Not especially the main allure here is that Templars.......

Can't DPS in PVE group content. It's really that simple. The melee builds have no special advantage over other classes other than (arguably) Radiant Aura and that is not some huge bonus. Is it really worth the slot at this point with the stamina returns that exist on heavy attacks???

Which ultimate do you guys use? Flawless Dawnbreaker? How about Nightblades? Veil of Blades? DK's? Standard..............Sorcs........see what I'm getting at? Nova is good as a utility CD for PVE.......but its damage blows for the cost..........Veil of Blades costs less and does the exact same thing.

As for ranged/caster, I understand the thought process:

If the class can heal without resto staves equipped, should the class be able to stack magicka and do damage then simply toss, say, breath of life on their bar and toss out heals?

At this point, I don't think that's applicable. It's a bad argument. Because as long as cast skills and certain weapons are going to scale off one resource, then it's absolutely imperative that a Destro staff wielding Templar is viable. And as such, skills like Backlash, Solar Flare, Spear Shards, and Sun Fire need to provide an avenue to deal DPS on par with other caster builds. The class passives have to support this, as well. With some method of self-sustenance aside from "Talent Equilibrium."

It's not about liking or disliking the class. If people didn't like it, they wouldn't spend their time writing about it. But the straight truth is that restoring light and utility like Eclipse and Blinding Flashes are eating up valuable spots to make this class great as a ranged DPS. Certain abilities need completely reworked like Backlash and Eclipse to not be overpowered and not be worthless.

I mean consider if their remedy was simply to remove the cap from Backlash.........you know what that would do to PVP? You'd have people getting absolutely murdered.............And if Eclipsed bypassed the ability to be Slammed out of, you know what that would mean? If it functioned all the time?

My argument is simple: For a class with an entire tree without a single damage ability in it (Restoring Light) you would understand that aside from certain viable tanking tools, like Sun Shield (which still has a major bug on its Blazing shield morph), things like how Backlash works are overwrought and unnecessary. Morphs like Purifying Light have extremely limited value as long as you put Rushed Ceremony on your bars and bomb out a massive heal.........or swap weapons and quickly put out a Regeneration..............Why is this needed in this game? It's not. Everybody's a hybrid. It's OK to have specialists as much as Draconic Power makes DKs a tanking specialist.........but it's not OK to let a single class languish now and have tons of mathematical and empirical evidence saying that they are languishing.

Pmarsico9

Not Feeling The Love (Useless changes)

And before anybody chimes in and says "I want to play melee," it's still important to note that unless standing melee DPS is higher than standing class, with the amount of times you have to move away from a boss, boosting magicka-based class abilities is just as important for melee, as well. In fact, I think most melee Temp builds do still use Vamp's Bane rotationally.

And if you have evidence that melee Templars are far ahead of melee DKs, it would be very interesting to see that evidence. Because everything I find shows that nothing beats the raw output of DKs and Caster nightblades right now.

Shinra

Feeling The Love (Useful changes)

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Can't DPS in PVE group content. It's really that simple. The melee builds have no special advantage over other classes other than (arguably) Radiant Aura and that is not some huge bonus. Is it really worth the slot at this point with the stamina returns that exist on heavy attacks???

Can't DPS in Trials. That's the only fact.

Ok, my templar is the healer in groups. I made him for that purpose, and that's that. And from my point of view, I rate the DD classes in (most) Veteran Dungeons as followed:

1. Dragon Knight
2. Templar
3. Sorcerer
4. Nightblade

Dragon Knight
Well, that's obvious. Together with Talons and other AoE, they burn anything down. If there is a problem, the standard can save the day. Well, everybody knows that DKs are damn strong, but what's more amazing is that nearly everybody of them knows how to play their specific builds.

Templar
Yep, second. You heard me. Well, what to say. As DDs they are collected. When close range (or forced to close range), nearly everyone uses Puncturing Sweep (healing), connected with some protection like immoveable, blazing shield, some other defence increase or sometimes heal. (And sometimes blinding flashes, but they are great as well, if used right it's a damage reduction of nearly 50 % after all) Even if I wouldn't heal them, they are nearly immortal, when compared to other classes. With ultis, nova can't be used often, but is still great in emergencies. If they have bat swarm (vampire) or Rite of Passage as Ulti, nothing can kill them.

Sorcerer
They need to know how to play. If they don't, they aren't as good as Templars or DKs. If they play mage-stile with light armor, they need to know how to get away from too much damage. With encase, Lightning form, Bolt Escape and/or Bound Armor. Things like that. For damage, they need Weapon Skills till the enemy is ready for execute (Mage's Fury). Sorcerers are third in my list, because there are too many of them who only spam Crystal Shard and Impulse with/without some summoned pets (but they don't make that much of a difference)

Nightblades
Yep, last. Dead last. I would probably even prefer players which don't use class skills at all. Doesn't really matter if mobs of bosses, (most of the time) they jump in first. They don't leave time for the tank to taunt the most dangerous things, they don't wait for the tank to pull the first aggro-wave (mobs) and they don't wait till I have casted my first healing spells (rapid regeneration, and if strong enemies, extended ritual as well.) Well, I would still have time for that, if Nightblades would have some sort of defence in their skill bar. But no, they jump in to die. And so they use up half my mana bar (multiple breath of life) before the fight even starts. And if you don't manage to heal them at some point, it's your fault, of course. You are the healer, and you should heal them.


Now that I said that, I have to say, as long as the specific player knows how to play, every class can play as a DD, except for trials cause those enrage timers are stupid. (really, for strong teams enrage timers don't really matter, and weaker players/teams are closed out completely! Who is doing something like this? But this isn't the thread to rant about trials)

So yeah, in veteran dungeons, the DDs that give me (the healer) and with that the whole group the hardest time are narrow-minded players without any self heal or damage shield or damage prevention. Which, most of the time, happen to be nightblades and sorcs. (If there are good sorcs and nightblades, they are great too, of course) That's how a normal group works, anyway. everybody has their part in it to make the group work. The use of CC, damage prevention and other stuff are all things that make it easier for the whole group (Another thing I hate about trials. Only DPS matters. Really? Why? You can't even call that group-play. Self protection as well as CC becomes pretty useless in trials...)

Khivas_Carrick

Not Feeling The Love (Useless changes)

Shinra wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Can't DPS in PVE group content. It's really that simple. The melee builds have no special advantage over other classes other than (arguably) Radiant Aura and that is not some huge bonus. Is it really worth the slot at this point with the stamina returns that exist on heavy attacks???

Can't DPS in Trials. That's the only fact.

Ok, my templar is the healer in groups. I made him for that purpose, and that's that. And from my point of view, I rate the DD classes in (most) Veteran Dungeons as followed:

1. Dragon Knight
2. Templar
3. Sorcerer
4. Nightblade

Dragon Knight
Well, that's obvious. Together with Talons and other AoE, they burn anything down. If there is a problem, the standard can save the day. Well, everybody knows that DKs are damn strong, but what's more amazing is that nearly everybody of them knows how to play their specific builds.

Templar
Yep, second. You heard me. Well, what to say. As DDs they are collected. When close range (or forced to close range), nearly everyone uses Puncturing Sweep (healing), connected with some protection like immoveable, blazing shield, some other defence increase or sometimes heal. (And sometimes blinding flashes, but they are great as well, if used right it's a damage reduction of nearly 50 % after all) Even if I wouldn't heal them, they are nearly immortal, when compared to other classes. With ultis, nova can't be used often, but is still great in emergencies. If they have bat swarm (vampire) or Rite of Passage as Ulti, nothing can kill them.

Sorcerer
They need to know how to play. If they don't, they aren't as good as Templars or DKs. If they play mage-stile with light armor, they need to know how to get away from too much damage. With encase, Lightning form, Bolt Escape and/or Bound Armor. Things like that. For damage, they need Weapon Skills till the enemy is ready for execute (Mage's Fury). Sorcerers are third in my list, because there are too many of them who only spam Crystal Shard and Impulse with/without some summoned pets (but they don't make that much of a difference)

Nightblades
Yep, last. Dead last. I would probably even prefer players which don't use class skills at all. Doesn't really matter if mobs of bosses, (most of the time) they jump in first. They don't leave time for the tank to taunt the most dangerous things, they don't wait for the tank to pull the first aggro-wave (mobs) and they don't wait till I have casted my first healing spells (rapid regeneration, and if strong enemies, extended ritual as well.) Well, I would still have time for that, if Nightblades would have some sort of defence in their skill bar. But no, they jump in to die. And so they use up half my mana bar (multiple breath of life) before the fight even starts. And if you don't manage to heal them at some point, it's your fault, of course. You are the healer, and you should heal them.


Now that I said that, I have to say, as long as the specific player knows how to play, every class can play as a DD, except for trials cause those enrage timers are stupid. (really, for strong teams enrage timers don't really matter, and weaker players/teams are closed out completely! Who is doing something like this? But this isn't the thread to rant about trials)

So yeah, in veteran dungeons, the DDs that give me (the healer) and with that the whole group the hardest time are narrow-minded players without any self heal or damage shield or damage prevention. Which, most of the time, happen to be nightblades and sorcs. (If there are good sorcs and nightblades, they are great too, of course) That's how a normal group works, anyway. everybody has their part in it to make the group work. The use of CC, damage prevention and other stuff are all things that make it easier for the whole group (Another thing I hate about trials. Only DPS matters. Really? Why? You can't even call that group-play. Self protection as well as CC becomes pretty useless in trials...)

In my guild's Trials run I'm the only mDPS Templar, and we have one other Caster DPS Templar, and then a Templar Healer. It's a miracle that I can pull it off and frankly it's only due to me tossing spears to my allies that use Stamina and the rare offheal from my second bar. As for Vet Dungeons, you're off base again and I'm starting to wonder if you really know your class or not, let alone the other classes.

DK's in the top spot makes sense, but the way you put it makes it sound like the Templar should be tanking, not dealing damage. On the DPS parts that matter, single target boss battles, Templars do not deserve that second spot. We can manage CC on adds amazingly well, yes, but actually killing the boss can take some time, whereas the Nightblade and Sorc if they're smart can do both Add Management and single target DPS just fine.

Now from a Support DPS standpoint they'd be the best of course, and would work wonderfully, but that's if the encounters and the other classes actually needed a support DPS. Fact is they don't, and I got lucky that my guild lets me run as I do now, despite using so few of my actual class skills to kill things.