Please.. enough with the DK nerfs/NB buffs

rotatorkuf

what i'd like to know is what they're basing all these DK nerfs/changes on.....do they have a team that parses their combat and saw DK is beating the other classes? is it just based off pvp feedback?

have they even said officially, it seems, as scary as the thought is, that they're just going off player feedback...the wrong player feedback imo

TheBucket

Oh the unknown. .. how I envy everyone still following rumor mill about stave Nightblades

makkon

open, read

deathpandax_ESO wrote: »

NBs are hitting the highest DPS in the game right now by far.

close...think abit more, open again, read

deathpandax_ESO wrote: »

Max NB DPS Pre-patch: ~1k Post-patch: ~1.2k

Max DK DPS Pre-patch: ~1.2k Post-patch: ~900

yep, I should close it fisrt time...
maximum sustain dps I can reach in trials was 800 (full crit, resto stave, 2 rings and neck 13 spell damage, no siphoning attacks, spelldamage potions by cooldown, spell symmetry) with caster build. actually this build even not sustain due no mana all time.
our dk still can reach 900-1k. balanced? looks like.

ps. sorcs can reach 1200dps with destro and over 220 weapon damage balanced? think so

summarize sustain single target dps:
sorc~dk>nb>templar
sorc doesnt buff or heal other while do dps. dk also. templar and nb healing. balanced? yes.

about trials setup - 2 nb, 2 templars - rest sorcs and dks still worked best

makkon

doublepost

terence.caroneb17_ESO

funny how templar is still the third world of this game, and this forum too We can only be competitive with a destro and resto staff, we got only puncturing strikes (and its morphs) to get some dps in melee, and all I see is dks crying about a loss of dps (cause it was normal for them to solo world bosses before so maybe if they can't anymore it's the end of the world) and nightblade buffs (while they need fixes for their passives and some crits not working).

A VR12 templar of my guild rerolled as a DK a few weeks back and told me last night he was feeling like he played a different game, rolling on mobs without having pretty much any difficulty if he doesn't aggro a whole room of them. He's left his templar cause all he can do now with it is healing in a group.

If a templar is reading me, hang in there bro ... or leave the game like me until you can do another role than healer and occasionally below average dps : )

DeLindsay

Um exactly what buffs have NB's gotten since DK's started receiving the nerf bat that all the sudden we're capable of 1.2K DPS ST? And if that's the case why aren't we seeing Trials stacked with 10 NB's , 1 Sorc (for mobile healing ofc) and 1 Templar (gotta have a tank amiright)? NB's have received about a 1% damage increase to some of our AOE abilities thus far and nothing to my knowledge for ST damage.

Me thinks this is nothing more than yet another DK crying because he's no longer the most ridiculously OP class in the game anymore.

LadyDestiny

I still don't have any problem taking on mobs with my DK, 1h/s. Ask me about my nb with dw and bow? Well that is another story.......unfortunately I do not play a caster so go figure.........nb ult is somewhat sucky now even though veil crits. Takes a lot longer to get it charged, half the time the charge just goes poof, still tons of bugged skills and that constant freezing up on abilities. Yep we need a nerf.........lol

Andy22

Aoifesan wrote: »

You might think that the 10% proc was per attack, however if that was the case I'd be hearing it a whole lot less. There are times on Steel Tornado and Sap Essence usage I'll get them with every cast.

Did you actually test this or is this just a "feeling"? The last time i tested this is quite a while back, thats why i'm asking.

All you need is a "Battlelog" that shows 2 procs on a single tornado, might need a couple of tries, but if this is really the case it would be a nice NB buff.

Its nothing personal, i simply don't trust any "claim's/conclusions" based on "feelings" or anecdotal evidence in this forum, since they are almost always wrong or misleading.

So plz, if u have time test this and post your results.

bugulu

alexj4596b14_ESO wrote: »

The stoping staffs from casting while blocking wouldn't work because that would mean tanks could not taunt while blocking which is the point.

Then that's a L2P issue. If tanks can't be arsed timing when to drop their shield to just taunt then that's their problem.

Shaun98ca2

deathpandax_ESO wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

cfriedman71ub17_ESO wrote: »

Nerfing any abilities only ever leads to one thing.. unsubscribe. The only good way to balance is to buff abilities. That is too much work for most dev teams because then you have to rebalance the whole game. it is just bad business all around.

So ONLY buff abilities to create balance. What do you do when content becomes trivialized?

Then content can be easily buffed if necessary.

IF the content is buffed that's a NERF to EVERY CLASS how would people live with themselves the suicides would be unimaginable. People cant handle 1 or 2 abilities to be neft but the entire class and ALL of them.

PLUS the sheer amount of time it would take to buff all the other classes to OP DK level then to turn around and buff all the mobs. This sounds like a LOT of extra work just to *** off an entire player base.

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO

NB caster great? well that depends on what you run, While i admit NB siphon has somewhat good single target damage the aoe is utherly insulting and the lack of survivability is even worse. All class got access to armor spells or survivability increase but NB got none save from a passive wich work only for 4 second after breaking out of stealth and dont get me started about the self heal the siphon ability healing is quite jokish if not synergised with a restoration staff and a few healing spell (dont get me started on spamming shadowcloak this has long been nerfed and if you still run SC permastun and think this is how NB should be played then clearly you doing it wrong because this kind of junk was likely never intended)! If i could gain a reliable source of armor other then the Heavy Armor active like DK or Sorc NB would likely be in a good position.

Past this point its no longuer about improving NB but about improving physical weapon damage and effectiveness and that is true for all class. NB phys weapon related ability are fine... its the synergy with poor ability (current phys weapon) that makes them utherly bad because if attack speed or physical damage increase was actualy worthwhile right now NB would have it fine.

Wifeaggro13

deathpandax_ESO wrote: »

NBs are hitting the highest DPS in the game right now by far. DKs are getting lower then Sorcs, which makes no sense at all because Sorcs are ranged DPS and therefor should be lower at a range. This last 1.1.3 nerf really ruined DK DPS, and I wish they had not done it. WIthout the ult generation/standard nerf, DK and NB DPS would be on-par with each other.


Some other peoples take on it:
"Ok…. Everytime I see NB’s whining about their Class, we always point out that NB caster Builds are incredibly powerful, and have some of the best DPS and utility in the game nowThere response is always “Well…That’s a Caster Build, I wanna play with medium armor, duel wield, and a bow!”
Newflash ya noobs…Those DK’s you’re whining about, They’re not running around with Heavy Armor and a 2 hander pulling 1k DPS..They’re running a Caster Build…Same as the Sorcs, You can’t bloody whine your class isn’t competing with other classes in DPS, then complain its not your *** build that’s doing it after we point out how to accomplish it.

You want high DPS right now, You run light armor/staves..It doesn’t matter which class you pick..Your class isn’t broken, its not bad..it isn’t weak…Stamina Builds are..Soon as you fools get that into your thick skulls the better off you’ll be."



"I guess some people are argueing about different things. Things like class balance in PvP can be very opinionated. Some people think having invisibilty is better, some people think having a self heal is better. And honestly its choices like that, that should have went into your class choice decision. Class balance, atleast to me, should put you in line with other DPS numbers that other people are pulling. So here is what annoys me:

Max NB DPS Pre-patch: ~1k Post-patch: ~1.2k

Max DK DPS Pre-patch: ~1.2k Post-patch: ~900

If they didn’t nerf DK DPS, and just buffed NB DPS, then they would both be at 1.2k. Now this may seem irrelevant, but when you are going Trial times, it matters. If your going for an optimal group now, then you wouldn’t want any DKs. And I know for the last 2 weeks the roles have been reversed and NBs weren’t wanted I. A group. (Other then 1-2 for VoB damage mitigation). It’s important enough to the point that both of the top Aetherian teams are having multiple people reroll NB.

Again, all I care about is melee classes having around the same DPS, so we can stop cherry-picking members and stop having to reroll to get optimal teams."

I agree with the DK builds. I can not believe that across the board this game at end game is caster scrolls online. DK's now only have one spec and it is light armor and stave. So in retro spec it is now balanced we all perform the same in that spec.
Many of us saw this issue early with tanking as we number crunched and figured out you are better of tanking in light armor. which really makes the rolls just AOE DPS with a f ing taunt its not a tank. it translates accross the board to all the roles though. Your caster AOE DPS with a couple heals, caster AOE DPS with ST executes. In all honesty the end game is no where near ready for release LOL more people are quitting in VR then people who just picked up the game and decieded they didn't like it.

Its purely obvious they will continue to break the game and classes further before they address the underlying issue with melee and heavy/medium issues. As for trials. the whole thing sucks its not competitive or rewarding its created one spec for all. And a Crap load of arrogant Whinny Man children wearing dresses and waving broom sticks around.

The 300 DPS gap is huge between classes. but its god damned ridiculous when compared to melee builds getting 500 to 700 tops . I don't see a very bright future for ESO . ZOS is slow to act on fixing long existing issues and seem content pushing out broken imbalanced Alpha content for release.

what also Disturbs me is the complete and total acceptance of the PTS community to be ok with this cookie cutter light armor resto destro staff build for all classes . Doooooom Doooooom Doooooom (but seriously if this latter issue is not addressed they will continue to bleed paying customers.)

khele23eb17_ESO

There people who enjoy playing casters and there are people who enjoy playing sneaky melee characters, armored melee characters and archers. Lets say its 50/50. Even if half of the melee/archer camp can be convinced to play a caster (which I doubt) Zanimax is still basically telling a quarter of their potential customers: 'go away, we dont give a damn about you, we dont want your money.' Thats just stupid. What shocks me the most is the complete and utter lack of reaction from Zenimax to this issue. Theres not even an attempt at some sort of PR damage control with this thing.

Stamden

Proof of NB DPS 1.2K Single Target

OkieDokie

And in the same group a dk is pulling 1.3k.

davidetombab16_ESO

deathpandax_ESO wrote: »

Proof of NB DPS 1.2K Single Target

ignorant man , dk with same stats can do same dps or better(sorc for sure better), learn to play

Stamden

OkieDokie wrote: »

And in the same group a dk is pulling 1.3k.

I'd love to see proof of this

OkieDokie

Go argue with the author of that topic. I guess he's only good source of information when it interests you...

Nope, I'm not letting this nonsense go

tino.antoninieb17_ESO

I talk strictly about pve . Think that pve and pvp should be totally separated by making same spells doing differently in pvp and pve ( like teleport which is not stunning in pvp).

I have NB and DK. I love them equally apart from the fact that i have to play caster and hate that from the bottom of my heart. They are equally geared and equally close to cookie cutter builds.
DK is still significantly better (10-15% dps wise single target and more in aoe) for group play than NB.
Besides dps - DK contribution to group play is much higher.

After balancing proper relation should be:
1) NB > DK ( single target wise ) at least for 15-20% .
2) DK> NB ( aoe ) for not more then 10-15 % ( coz in overall damage AOE is participating much more then Single target )
3) Difference in contribution to the group should be reduced by giving to the NB some love.

Note:

That balancing thing should not be done through nerfing DK coz that will give advantage to sorcs.
I think that Templars should be boosted big time regarding dps .
In general when we talk balancing dps would men :
1) Sorcs and DK's are refference point and they shouldnt move
2) NB's should be buffed ( look up for correlation with dk)
3) Templars should be buffed big time

Stamina/melee driven dps should be equal to Magic/caster dps ( normalised for average encounter ( end content ) profile. That would mean that melee friendly encounter ( high dps uptime for melee players ) should give advantage to Stamina/melee and non melee friendly encounter would give advantage to Magic/caster dps .

Stamden

tino.antoninieb17_ESO wrote: »

I talk strictly about pve . Think that pve and pvp should be totally separated by making same spells doing differently in pvp and pve ( like teleport which is not stunning in pvp).

I have NB and DK. I love them equally apart from the fact that i have to play caster and hate that from the bottom of my heart. They are equally geared and equally close to cookie cutter builds.
DK is still significantly better (10-15% dps wise single target and more in aoe) for group play than NB.
Besides dps - DK contribution to group play is much higher.

After balancing proper relation should be:
1) NB > DK ( single target wise ) at least for 15-20% .
2) DK> NB ( aoe ) for not more then 10-15 % ( coz in overall damage AOE is participating much more then Single target )
3) Difference in contribution to the group should be reduced by giving to the NB some love.

Note:

That balancing thing should not be done through nerfing DK coz that will give advantage to sorcs.
I think that Templars should be boosted big time regarding dps .
In general when we talk balancing dps would men :
1) Sorcs and DK's are refference point and they shouldnt move
2) NB's should be buffed ( look up for correlation with dk)
3) Templars should be buffed big time

Stamina/melee driven dps should be equal to Magic/caster dps ( normalised for average encounter ( end content ) profile. That would mean that melee friendly encounter ( high dps uptime for melee players ) should give advantage to Stamina/melee and non melee friendly encounter would give advantage to Magic/caster dps .

Though I would agree with most of this, I think NBs contribute much more to group play. The group damage mitigation from Veil is huge, while standard mitigation only works on the caster. The single target is apparently roughly the same. And all classes can get relatively close AoE DPS with Impulse spam. DKs might have slightly more but that is what their class is supposed to be good at.

williams226

Personally I think AOE spells mechanics need to be changed.

Maybe increased cost of magika/stamina to cast with an increased cooldown of abilities so they cannot be spammed / or even like the BE nerf where the cost is increased the more they get used within a time frame.

This will bring down AOE damage, as its so overpowered compared to single target. Then the single target damage wont seem so bad.

Not saying make any big changes, but AOE needs tweaking.

They have already stated they are looking at stamina builds and will tweak them so they are viable......

Decimus_Rex

deathpandax_ESO wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

If (IF!) the NB caster builds (cloth, staff, magicka, spell crit) are really overperforming, sure bring them down a bit but you have to realize theres a whole separate playstyle between them and the full stam/med/weapon skills builds (which barely anyone plays in VR and need a huge buff). What about the melee/magicka/medium/weapon crit builds which are somewhat viable in VR at least during leveling? Theyre nowhere near as good as the caster builds but would most likely be nerfed along with them.

Yes but you see the main problem here is that ZoS is getting a lot of misinformation about Nightblades. Public opinion would have you think NBs are terrible and that is because 95% of them are running a stamina build. This is leading to the class being buffed. When fact is, NB casters are great and these buffs are just increasing the gap between them and the other classes' DPS builds right now.

A quick spoiler alert for any new comers to this game and just in case no one has quite gotten there heads around why every class is slipping towards mediocre

THE ONLY STRONG SKILL LINES ARE DESTRO/RESTO.

Take any class, build around this and WIN !

All others Template's/Archetype's are lacking in the same shear destructive power as these two caster lines and I believe it's intentional

For now !! I'll explain

Zeni has been deftly taking the steroids away from the most of the obvious classes to put the whole game on HARDER mode.

This is Zeni's NEW mission satement.

Thereby adding , in their eye's I'm sure, more of a time sink and more of yer dough being spent here.

Let's face it ,when this game released people were within days shooting to the end game ,got there, whined "THERE IS NOTHING TO DO, I QUIT !

Now what you have here is the growing pains that all must endure to prolong playing time to this game and give the 2 man development team that is working OT more time to make and add content.

It's only a matter of time....

Until even the T/A lines are nerfed.It's no wonder why sorc's using these lines with their utility is a train wreck of destruction if your in it's path but I digress

Even this line will feel the sting of mediocrity sooner or later, don't think this will be left untouched

Then this poster here will scratch his head and wonder why his sorcOmatic Lightblade just aint workin dat great YO !

Hence the buff to NB's and more realistically to all stam builds.

The whole idea is to bring everyone down or up a notch or two to even them up because after all one successful skill line is just plain ridiculous and hazardous to a games life span

This aint Eviscerating Sorcerers online

So strap in, get some extra strong aloe infused linen scented tissue paper and get ready for less whoop ass to every class

Stamden

williams226 wrote: »

Personally I think AOE spells mechanics need to be changed.

Maybe increased cost of magika/stamina to cast with an increased cooldown of abilities so they cannot be spammed / or even like the BE nerf where the cost is increased the more they get used within a time frame.

This will bring down AOE damage, as its so overpowered compared to single target. Then the single target damage wont seem so bad.

Not saying make any big changes, but AOE needs tweaking.

They have already stated they are looking at stamina builds and will tweak them so they are viable......

AoE DPS is always going to be much higher then single target because you are hitting multiple targets at once. I don't see it as a problem. If anything, they just need to buff trash mobs, keeping in mind that 7-8 people are going to be spamming impulse/tornado in trials.

Vuron

deathpandax_ESO wrote: »

OkieDokie wrote: »

And in the same group a dk is pulling 1.3k.

I'd love to see proof of this

The very first screenshot. The DK links his DPS in group chat. 22.1 second fight, 29,273 damage. 1325 DPS.

nez

Nerf nb!

williams226

deathpandax_ESO wrote: »

AoE DPS is always going to be much higher then single target because you are hitting multiple targets at once. I don't see it as a problem. If anything, they just need to buff trash mobs, keeping in mind that 7-8 people are going to be spamming impulse/tornado in trials.

I would say do both, buff trash so they have more HP and can hit harder in group content and reduce AOE. That would certainly make it more interesting.

As regards to other thread about DK [and sorc apparently] solo craglorn content. Certainly shows a need for something to be done.

Gilvoth

in my honest opinion this thread has no merrit nor any true basis for the claim.

duel wield nightblades with bow and dagger simply are the least and lowest damage dealers in the game. in addition to that, we die the fastest and easiest due to our survivability rating which is even agreed upon and acknowledged by zen staff and developers so much that they are now making changes to the skill lines and passives of the nightblade class.
dragonights and sorcerers are overpowered do incredible damage, nightblades stamina build duel wield bow using class do the least damage.
templars do a bit more damage then the nightblade but still both nighblade duel woield bow and the templar cannot compete with sorcerers and dragonights. and thats a fact!

Vuron

Hlaren_shortsheath wrote: »

in my honest opinion this thread has no merrit nor any true basis for the claim.

duel wield nightblades with bow and dagger simply are the least and lowest damage dealers in the game. in addition to that, we die the fastest and easiest due to our survivability rating which is even agreed upon and acknowledged by zen staff and developers so much that they are now making changes to the skill lines and passives of the nightblade class.
dragonights and sorcerers are overpowered do incredible damage, nightblades stamina build duel wield bow using class do the least damage.
templars do a bit more damage then the nightblade but still both nighblade duel woield bow and the templar cannot compete with sorcerers and dragonights. and thats a fact!

Why does every NB argument have to come down to DW/Bow. A magicka based NB using just DW can do significant damage. It is only by trying to build around the bow that you're gimping your DW damage.

We just keep going in circles and the issues are being caused by everyone wanting to play a bow and screwing up their builds by doing it.

They've said they're working on stamina/weapon builds, so hopefully everyone will be happy, soon.

edup_2004

Vuron wrote: »

Why does every NB argument have to come down to DW/Bow. A magicka based NB using just DW can do significant damage. It is only by trying to build around the bow that you're gimping your DW damage.

We just keep going in circles and the issues are being caused by everyone wanting to play a bow and screwing up their builds by doing it.

They've said they're working on stamina/weapon builds, so hopefully everyone will be happy, soon.

I agree with this comment.

I'm a NB v3. My build is stam/Bow.

I do pretty good in PvP but of course I can't kill a v8+ DK. They are OP. I mean I do more DPS than them but they hay more survivability than me. But I can still kill almost any player in a 1v1 fight. Of course sometimes I get killed too.

The stam build is broken and everyone knows that. And since I still like this build I can't do much damage with my DW. To do so I would need to change some stam for magic.

Also another issue for NB is their survivability. How is that a sorcerer with Light armor have more survivability than a NB with Medium armor?????

I mean the survivability rate shouldn't be like Heavy>Medium>Light. Maybe I'm wrong. I would like to here some thoughts about this.

I still think NB are great, you just need to learn how to use them and don't expect to have bow and DW builds together and have huge DPS that just won't work. At least not atm.

What do you think???

Gilvoth

my nightblade is not a sorcerer. he is a duel wield bow and dagger user exactly like the dark brotherhood assasins were in morrowind. nor do i wish to become a magic based knightblade.
i know in both oblivion and skyrim they had added into it the sorcerers and tried to squeeze them into the darkbrotherhood, but, in morrowind where the dark brotherhood began it was not so. all those assassins used stamina based weapons and duel wield. it's the true base of the dark brotherhood and also the morrag tong.
please dont try to change me or my class, and please dont try to change the dark brotherhood playstyle assassin types.