Please.. enough with the DK nerfs/NB buffs

Kypho

deathpandax_ESO wrote: »

"DK is by far most universally the most over powered in every way you can detail, from raw damage, defense, utility, low cost resources of skills compared to other classes and can best take advantage of gear and stats etc to further illuminate this, and on and on."

It seems like most non-DKs think this way. I PvP alot (nearly 4m AP) and I just don't see it. Yes Dragon Blood is a solid self heal and will keep you up for a while, but people need to understand that it is an expensive skill and there is no way you going to have enough mana left for DPS if your casting Dragon Blood multiple times.

I guess it looks different from the outside looking in. Alot of people claim DKs are surviving zeros and tanking them solo, which is completely untrue. Yes, you can absorb loads of damage if you hold block in heavy armor and spam Dragon Blood. But your not doing any damage at that point, and your basically just prolonging your death. It LOOKS overpowered that it takes 10 people a few seconds to kill a DK, but it really just means that the DK has given up on doing anything damage wise. Is it any better that a Sorc and possibly an NB would have just used their escapes to get away?

People also need to understand that DK builds in PvP are very limited. Why? Because DKs have no ranged abilities which is huge in PvP. We also lack any means of an escape. I would trade Dragon Blood for Bolt Escape or Invis in a second. We also lack a proper gap closer which the other 3 classes have.

So we are limited to melee, and melee with no escapes. Think about that for a second. That limits us to pretty much tanking and only tanking. And with the talons/standard nerf, there is no reason to even pay attention to a tank in PvP.
People just kill your group mates and save you for last.

And I can deal with all off this, but if its going to get worse then this, then I feel like I am going to be forced to reroll.

And please people, look at this from an open mind. I know you have probably ran into a Dragon Blood spammer holding block and think they are the worst thing ever, but that is simply untrue.

limited? nope. Just like NB is limited to melee, and no tanking, not even damage of a DK. So what.... Sorcs? DK can beat sorc. and DK was able to beat a grp with the lame standard+talon spamming. DK is far more better than any other class. Maybe it is good for DK, but its not for others. And most funny DKs are who exploited the bash, what was not working as intended....now they canceled subs ROFL.....

Sorc escape is Bolt escape what is nerfed. NB is cloak and you can just talon, or dot, aoe out NB from cloak. your escape is your OP tanking abilities. Dont even try to cry how bad is for you, because other classes suffer 2 times more. Im sorry that DK losing slowly they OPness, but its needed.

kitsinni

NB's are getting a nerf to their biggest class defining skill that is the only reason we can even be considered for a DPS spot. Once they lower the regen on siphoning attacks NB dps will be extremely low. All of the buffs put together are still not going to equal this huge nerf. It is not NB month.

Stamden

NBs have many skills that support a bow/staff build. Maybe in Pre-1.1 DKs could do such a thing, but now ult generation is so nerfed and talons ranged is also very bad. You practically have to be ontop of a DK to get hit with Talons now, and they dot get enough ult to get a standard up because of it.

It is possible to do, but NOT solo. You need quite a bit of healers, and more importantly, a combination of many Ult going together. Back when I PvP'd, we would roll over zeros this way. You stack Negate/Standard/Veil and just want zeros drop. That is the current meta for group v. group PvP.

And I suppose cause you see a DK on the frontlines of all this, you are blaming them for it. When really it is a group effort of everyone's ults.

Stamden

kitsinni wrote: »

NB's are getting a nerf to their biggest class defining skill that is the only reason we can even be considered for a DPS spot. Once they lower the regen on siphoning attacks NB dps will be extremely low. All of the buffs put together are still not going to equal this huge nerf. It is not NB month.

Have you seem the numbers? It's just going down to 2.3% I believe, which still makes it a very good skill

khele23eb17_ESO

Its a 25% nerf which Id be fine with if the dmg reduction was now 15% instead of 22.

Artis

On my bar there's usually 1-2 weapon skills. Others are class skills. No damage. It's ridiculously small even compared to my friend's templar's with 2H dps... He gets 2 times higher DPS with those biting jabs haha(or 5 times higher on packs, since nbs don't have aoe). And he is 3 veteran ranks lower than me.

Nightblades do need buff right now on live servers. So I don't know what you're talking about(p.s. talking about 2handed nb).

Artis

deathpandax_ESO wrote: »

Yes but you see the main problem here is that ZoS is getting a lot of misinformation about Nightblades. Public opinion would have you think NBs are terrible and that is because 95% of them are running a stamina build. This is leading to the class being buffed. When fact is, NB casters are great and these buffs are just increasing the gap between them and the other classes' DPS builds right now.

Well that's exactly who the changes should be done for. The majority of NB players. It's *** that, say, only 5% of NBs can compete with other classes(not 100% of each of them, but much higher than 5%).

Aoifesan

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

If (IF!) the NB caster builds (cloth, staff, magicka, spell crit) are really overperforming, sure bring them down a bit but you have to realize theres a whole separate playstyle between them and the full stam/med/weapon skills builds (which barely anyone plays in VR and need a huge buff). What about the melee/magicka/medium/weapon crit builds which are somewhat viable in VR at least during leveling? Theyre nowhere near as good as the caster builds but would most likely be nerfed along with them.

you all need to learn to read. Siphoning Strikes: This ability now restores slightly less resources, and will no longer desync your resource bars upon use.

That's a nerf. To ALL nightblades, not just caster ones.

kitsinni

deathpandax_ESO wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

NB's are getting a nerf to their biggest class defining skill that is the only reason we can even be considered for a DPS spot. Once they lower the regen on siphoning attacks NB dps will be extremely low. All of the buffs put together are still not going to equal this huge nerf. It is not NB month.

Have you seem the numbers? It's just going down to 2.3% I believe, which still makes it a very good skill

They have not officially said how much they plan to reduce the other regens. They said the health regen on the one morph will be 2.3% which is what it has always been just the tooltip has always stated 4%. We don't know if they plan to reduce the amount on the light/heavy attack or the % chance on any attack. If they reduce the % chance on any attack we will probably be ok if they lower everything we will have a very hard time keeping up. The majority of NB's in top gear and the current best spec are barely hitting the minimum DPS numbers for trials as is and that is with popping Magika potions as it stands and using both Seducer 3% cost reduction and Warlock sets for Magika Flood. Any more magika regen reduction and we are not attacking as often and not hitting close to the DPS needed for trials.

kitsinni

Pretty much every single competitive Nightblade is running a full light set of armor and a Resto staff at this point and still hitting about half the DPS of DK/Sorc in trials. This is currently the most effective sustainable DPS spec we have available. With Stamina builds we can pretty much hit high numbers on Trash pulls only and are pretty much garbage on bosses. Your buddy may get high numbers on AoE pulls of trash but that is not what gets you in to trials.

Sakiri

LameoveR wrote: »

It's a NB's month. Your month was April. May was Templar's month.
Pull up panties and mourn in far dark corner.
Next month is a Sorc's month.

May was templar month?

News to me.

And if they gut resto/destro/light armor too much, even that build for templar will be garbage.

It's the only build even remotely doable after a certain point and you're still not wanted for group content.

Stamden

kitsinni wrote: »

Pretty much every single competitive Nightblade is running a full light set of armor and a Resto staff at this point and still hitting about half the DPS of DK/Sorc in trials. This is currently the most effective sustainable DPS spec we have available. With Stamina builds we can pretty much hit high numbers on Trash pulls only and are pretty much garbage on bosses. Your buddy may get high numbers on AoE pulls of trash but that is not what gets you in to trials.

Sorry but you are very wrong about this. The best NB build is pulling 1.2-1.3k right now, and you can ask anyone in the top trial guilds and they will confirm that.

Artemis wrote: »

deathpandax_ESO wrote: »

Yes but you see the main problem here is that ZoS is getting a lot of misinformation about Nightblades. Public opinion would have you think NBs are terrible and that is because 95% of them are running a stamina build. This is leading to the class being buffed. When fact is, NB casters are great and these buffs are just increasing the gap between them and the other classes' DPS builds right now.

Well that's exactly who the changes should be done for. The majority of NB players. It's *** that, say, only 5% of NBs can compete with other classes(not 100% of each of them, but much higher than 5%).

Stamina builds need a huge overhaul. But for now, any buffs to NB is just widening how much more DPS that NB casters are getting.

Artemis wrote: »

On my bar there's usually 1-2 weapon skills. Others are class skills. No damage. It's ridiculously small even compared to my friend's templar's with 2H dps... He gets 2 times higher DPS with those biting jabs haha(or 5 times higher on packs, since nbs don't have aoe). And he is 3 veteran ranks lower than me.

Nightblades do need buff right now on live servers. So I don't know what you're talking about(p.s. talking about 2handed nb).

This was mentioned many times: Stamina builds in general suck, it's not your class.

Ciarán

deathpandax_ESO wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

Pretty much every single competitive Nightblade is running a full light set of armor and a Resto staff at this point and still hitting about half the DPS of DK/Sorc in trials. This is currently the most effective sustainable DPS spec we have available. With Stamina builds we can pretty much hit high numbers on Trash pulls only and are pretty much garbage on bosses. Your buddy may get high numbers on AoE pulls of trash but that is not what gets you in to trials.

Sorry but you are very wrong about this. The best NB build is pulling 1.2-1.3k right now, and you can ask anyone in the top trial guilds and they will confirm that.

Artemis wrote: »

deathpandax_ESO wrote: »

Yes but you see the main problem here is that ZoS is getting a lot of misinformation about Nightblades. Public opinion would have you think NBs are terrible and that is because 95% of them are running a stamina build. This is leading to the class being buffed. When fact is, NB casters are great and these buffs are just increasing the gap between them and the other classes' DPS builds right now.

Well that's exactly who the changes should be done for. The majority of NB players. It's *** that, say, only 5% of NBs can compete with other classes(not 100% of each of them, but much higher than 5%).

Stamina builds need a huge overhaul. But for now, any buffs to NB is just widening how much more DPS that NB casters are getting.

Artemis wrote: »

On my bar there's usually 1-2 weapon skills. Others are class skills. No damage. It's ridiculously small even compared to my friend's templar's with 2H dps... He gets 2 times higher DPS with those biting jabs haha(or 5 times higher on packs, since nbs don't have aoe). And he is 3 veteran ranks lower than me.

Nightblades do need buff right now on live servers. So I don't know what you're talking about(p.s. talking about 2handed nb).

This was mentioned many times: Stamina builds in general suck, it's not your class.

The imperative is upon you to prove that "the best NB build is 1.2k-1.3k". If you want the community to accept this as fact then you need to provide the build being used and screenshot/video proof of these numbers. Hearsay, telling people to "go look it up", and asking people to take your word for it upon blind faith will not work or sway anyone. Without solid proof, your claims can be (and has been thus far) dismissed just as easily as you have made them.

Stamden

Ciarán wrote: »

deathpandax_ESO wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

Pretty much every single competitive Nightblade is running a full light set of armor and a Resto staff at this point and still hitting about half the DPS of DK/Sorc in trials. This is currently the most effective sustainable DPS spec we have available. With Stamina builds we can pretty much hit high numbers on Trash pulls only and are pretty much garbage on bosses. Your buddy may get high numbers on AoE pulls of trash but that is not what gets you in to trials.

Sorry but you are very wrong about this. The best NB build is pulling 1.2-1.3k right now, and you can ask anyone in the top trial guilds and they will confirm that.

Artemis wrote: »

deathpandax_ESO wrote: »

Yes but you see the main problem here is that ZoS is getting a lot of misinformation about Nightblades. Public opinion would have you think NBs are terrible and that is because 95% of them are running a stamina build. This is leading to the class being buffed. When fact is, NB casters are great and these buffs are just increasing the gap between them and the other classes' DPS builds right now.

Well that's exactly who the changes should be done for. The majority of NB players. It's *** that, say, only 5% of NBs can compete with other classes(not 100% of each of them, but much higher than 5%).

Stamina builds need a huge overhaul. But for now, any buffs to NB is just widening how much more DPS that NB casters are getting.

Artemis wrote: »

On my bar there's usually 1-2 weapon skills. Others are class skills. No damage. It's ridiculously small even compared to my friend's templar's with 2H dps... He gets 2 times higher DPS with those biting jabs haha(or 5 times higher on packs, since nbs don't have aoe). And he is 3 veteran ranks lower than me.

Nightblades do need buff right now on live servers. So I don't know what you're talking about(p.s. talking about 2handed nb).

This was mentioned many times: Stamina builds in general suck, it's not your class.

The imperative is upon you to prove that "the best NB build is 1.2k-1.3k". If you want the community to accept this as fact then you need to provide the build being used and screenshot/video proof of these numbers. Hearsay, telling people to "go look it up", and asking people to take your word for it upon blind faith will not work or sway anyone. Without solid proof, your claims can be (and has been thus far) dismissed just as easily as you have made them.

I've been trying to avoid announcing it publicly, to try to prolong the time it takes before trial groups "LF1M NB DPS w/ Certain build" happens.

But sure Ill ask my friend to see if be can post a video for you guys.

kitsinni

deathpandax_ESO wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

Pretty much every single competitive Nightblade is running a full light set of armor and a Resto staff at this point and still hitting about half the DPS of DK/Sorc in trials. This is currently the most effective sustainable DPS spec we have available. With Stamina builds we can pretty much hit high numbers on Trash pulls only and are pretty much garbage on bosses. Your buddy may get high numbers on AoE pulls of trash but that is not what gets you in to trials.

Sorry but you are very wrong about this. The best NB build is pulling 1.2-1.3k right now, and you can ask anyone in the top trial guilds and they will confirm that.

Artemis wrote: »

deathpandax_ESO wrote: »

Yes but you see the main problem here is that ZoS is getting a lot of misinformation about Nightblades. Public opinion would have you think NBs are terrible and that is because 95% of them are running a stamina build. This is leading to the class being buffed. When fact is, NB casters are great and these buffs are just increasing the gap between them and the other classes' DPS builds right now.

Well that's exactly who the changes should be done for. The majority of NB players. It's *** that, say, only 5% of NBs can compete with other classes(not 100% of each of them, but much higher than 5%).

Stamina builds need a huge overhaul. But for now, any buffs to NB is just widening how much more DPS that NB casters are getting.

Artemis wrote: »

On my bar there's usually 1-2 weapon skills. Others are class skills. No damage. It's ridiculously small even compared to my friend's templar's with 2H dps... He gets 2 times higher DPS with those biting jabs haha(or 5 times higher on packs, since nbs don't have aoe). And he is 3 veteran ranks lower than me.

Nightblades do need buff right now on live servers. So I don't know what you're talking about(p.s. talking about 2handed nb).

This was mentioned many times: Stamina builds in general suck, it's not your class.

When I looked last night I don't think the top trials group had a NB and I think 2 and 3 had 1.

Ciarán

deathpandax_ESO wrote: »

Ciarán wrote: »

deathpandax_ESO wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

Pretty much every single competitive Nightblade is running a full light set of armor and a Resto staff at this point and still hitting about half the DPS of DK/Sorc in trials. This is currently the most effective sustainable DPS spec we have available. With Stamina builds we can pretty much hit high numbers on Trash pulls only and are pretty much garbage on bosses. Your buddy may get high numbers on AoE pulls of trash but that is not what gets you in to trials.

Sorry but you are very wrong about this. The best NB build is pulling 1.2-1.3k right now, and you can ask anyone in the top trial guilds and they will confirm that.

Artemis wrote: »

deathpandax_ESO wrote: »

Yes but you see the main problem here is that ZoS is getting a lot of misinformation about Nightblades. Public opinion would have you think NBs are terrible and that is because 95% of them are running a stamina build. This is leading to the class being buffed. When fact is, NB casters are great and these buffs are just increasing the gap between them and the other classes' DPS builds right now.

Well that's exactly who the changes should be done for. The majority of NB players. It's *** that, say, only 5% of NBs can compete with other classes(not 100% of each of them, but much higher than 5%).

Stamina builds need a huge overhaul. But for now, any buffs to NB is just widening how much more DPS that NB casters are getting.

Artemis wrote: »

On my bar there's usually 1-2 weapon skills. Others are class skills. No damage. It's ridiculously small even compared to my friend's templar's with 2H dps... He gets 2 times higher DPS with those biting jabs haha(or 5 times higher on packs, since nbs don't have aoe). And he is 3 veteran ranks lower than me.

Nightblades do need buff right now on live servers. So I don't know what you're talking about(p.s. talking about 2handed nb).

This was mentioned many times: Stamina builds in general suck, it's not your class.

The imperative is upon you to prove that "the best NB build is 1.2k-1.3k". If you want the community to accept this as fact then you need to provide the build being used and screenshot/video proof of these numbers. Hearsay, telling people to "go look it up", and asking people to take your word for it upon blind faith will not work or sway anyone. Without solid proof, your claims can be (and has been thus far) dismissed just as easily as you have made them.

I've been trying to avoid announcing it publicly, to try to prolong the time it takes before trial groups "LF1M NB DPS w/ Certain build" happens.

But sure Ill ask my friend to see if be can post a video for you guys.

Appreciated. I can appreciate the desire to keep the build from becoming the new FOTM, but look at it another way. They say the squeaky wheel gets the grease. On a similar note, the problems/exploits which are under the spotlight, the more likely they will be addressed. The greater the spotlight, the quicker they are fixed.

By posting the build and video, you are shining a spotlight on the problem. The more people who pick it up and exploit it, the even greater that spotlight will become. Currently, the problem is in the shadows, as we have at best this nebulous idea that there might exist a problem without knowing exactly what it could be. But if we define the build and prove it is far and above more effective than any other class, then the process of fixing it can begin.

Xsorus

kitsinni wrote: »

deathpandax_ESO wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

Pretty much every single competitive Nightblade is running a full light set of armor and a Resto staff at this point and still hitting about half the DPS of DK/Sorc in trials. This is currently the most effective sustainable DPS spec we have available. With Stamina builds we can pretty much hit high numbers on Trash pulls only and are pretty much garbage on bosses. Your buddy may get high numbers on AoE pulls of trash but that is not what gets you in to trials.

Sorry but you are very wrong about this. The best NB build is pulling 1.2-1.3k right now, and you can ask anyone in the top trial guilds and they will confirm that.

Artemis wrote: »

deathpandax_ESO wrote: »

Yes but you see the main problem here is that ZoS is getting a lot of misinformation about Nightblades. Public opinion would have you think NBs are terrible and that is because 95% of them are running a stamina build. This is leading to the class being buffed. When fact is, NB casters are great and these buffs are just increasing the gap between them and the other classes' DPS builds right now.

Well that's exactly who the changes should be done for. The majority of NB players. It's *** that, say, only 5% of NBs can compete with other classes(not 100% of each of them, but much higher than 5%).

Stamina builds need a huge overhaul. But for now, any buffs to NB is just widening how much more DPS that NB casters are getting.

Artemis wrote: »

On my bar there's usually 1-2 weapon skills. Others are class skills. No damage. It's ridiculously small even compared to my friend's templar's with 2H dps... He gets 2 times higher DPS with those biting jabs haha(or 5 times higher on packs, since nbs don't have aoe). And he is 3 veteran ranks lower than me.

Nightblades do need buff right now on live servers. So I don't know what you're talking about(p.s. talking about 2handed nb).

This was mentioned many times: Stamina builds in general suck, it's not your class.

When I looked last night I don't think the top trials group had a NB and I think 2 and 3 had 1.

"Maybe in US u had that DK meta in trials. NBs were highly wanted in EU, and in fact jusrt befroe patch came out, top EU guild cleared AA below 10 min mark with 5 NB’s"

NombreDeLaBeast

It is a mixture of melee/stamina not being cost effective and powerful and the fact that armor is pretty much a tacked on stat at this point. (since Light armor can get to the point of being more viable than heavy even in melee fights)

Some changes:
Armor, spell pen, spell resistance, armor pen, and stamina builds in general are kind of wonky in this game. A person wearing light armor should not be near the cap unless they have some heavy armor pieces and passives learned. But on the flip side a heavy armor using character should not worry about physical damage unless it is accompanied by a large armor penetration. Medium armor should be about mobility, stealth, and medium defense. (they are on the right track but medium armor is still lacking. Maybe add a dodge mechanic that is increased with more medium armor or something.

First thing that needs to be looked at is the physical weapon damage vs Magical spell damage. As it stands spells outclass anything that stamina has to offer, and this is the biggest balancing issue that's facing the eso population today (save for the broken mechanics and whatnot) Melee damage should tear through characters with little armor, be it npc or player. Stamina cost should be lowered or make it so that the high cost abilities do much more damage relative to cost. (again against lower armor characters.)

Magic users on the other hand should do massive damage to those with little to no spell resistance. This would mean that magic using characters would be able to tear through those that only stack armor, but would have difficult times when facing other mages, hybrids, or anything with high spell resistance. As it stands now mages have good defense and amazing offence, while heavies and stamina builds...are meh.

Sneak attacks, if done by a character that is build for stealth, armor penetration, and stamina should be feared. they should be able to drop caster units in an instant if caught unaware, and be able to damage heavy units enough to put up a fight when or if they turn on the assassin. But the drawback to this character is that if they are caught unaware by a mage or heavy they would be hard pressed on winning...unless they got close to the mage or had a very high armor penetration rating.

Bow users and dagger wielding characters would have the highest armor pen available. Magic characters would be able to rain death upon the land BUT they could be taken out easily against the right type of characters. Heavies should be able to survive the physical onslaught of many without breaking a sweat. But be weak against magic and sneak attacks. Medium armor should be viable for both stealth and mobility. What this would do would force players to take different roles in order to combat different scenarios. If an enemy group has plenty of heavy units than they would be hard pressed against ranged and caster units, but if that same heavy unit got the drop on the caster unit than the casters would be at a disadvantage.

Hybrids (battle mages and the like) would have medium armor ratings, and spell resistance. This would allow the player to either survive melee combat easier and caster combat easier, but in the end a sneak attack stealth attack would ruin their day. They would also be easier to take out compared to the specialized units (straight magic caster or melee brute character.)

LIGHTNING FORM AND BOUND ARMOR:
These two abilities throw the proposed idea above for a loop. these abilities when combines with certain builds allow for far greater armor and spell resistance than available to other characters. This could very well make sorcs very OP (more so than they are currently portrayed, I have a VR6 sorc so I am not bashing them per say.) The only thing that could counter these abilities would be characters with very high armor pen abilities or spell pen abilities.

Proposed changes: Lightning form should not offer more armor, spell resistance sure. keep the aoe damage bubble, but also increase spell power while it is activated. But remove the armor bonus (bound armor does that already.)

I cannot think how to change bound armor...with this ability and light armor players are able to max out both spell resistances and armor stats. The only counter to the above system would again be a very high spell pen rating or armor pen rating.

--TL;DR--
Lower light armor rating.
increase stealth character threat.
Make armor more meaningful so that heavy armor is the go to physical resistant armor rather than light armor.
fix stamina cost vs power ratio.
More emphasis on armor penetration and spell penetration on some builds.

Maybe remove the classes, and if classes are so important...just offer 3: thief, mage, warrior. But keep the armor and weapons open to all. This would require combining some trees, removing others, and even making some class abilities that run off of stamina rather than the all mighty magicka.

Aoifesan

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

deathpandax_ESO wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

Pretty much every single competitive Nightblade is running a full light set of armor and a Resto staff at this point and still hitting about half the DPS of DK/Sorc in trials. This is currently the most effective sustainable DPS spec we have available. With Stamina builds we can pretty much hit high numbers on Trash pulls only and are pretty much garbage on bosses. Your buddy may get high numbers on AoE pulls of trash but that is not what gets you in to trials.

Sorry but you are very wrong about this. The best NB build is pulling 1.2-1.3k right now, and you can ask anyone in the top trial guilds and they will confirm that.

Artemis wrote: »

deathpandax_ESO wrote: »

Yes but you see the main problem here is that ZoS is getting a lot of misinformation about Nightblades. Public opinion would have you think NBs are terrible and that is because 95% of them are running a stamina build. This is leading to the class being buffed. When fact is, NB casters are great and these buffs are just increasing the gap between them and the other classes' DPS builds right now.

Well that's exactly who the changes should be done for. The majority of NB players. It's *** that, say, only 5% of NBs can compete with other classes(not 100% of each of them, but much higher than 5%).

Stamina builds need a huge overhaul. But for now, any buffs to NB is just widening how much more DPS that NB casters are getting.

Artemis wrote: »

On my bar there's usually 1-2 weapon skills. Others are class skills. No damage. It's ridiculously small even compared to my friend's templar's with 2H dps... He gets 2 times higher DPS with those biting jabs haha(or 5 times higher on packs, since nbs don't have aoe). And he is 3 veteran ranks lower than me.

Nightblades do need buff right now on live servers. So I don't know what you're talking about(p.s. talking about 2handed nb).

This was mentioned many times: Stamina builds in general suck, it's not your class.

When I looked last night I don't think the top trials group had a NB and I think 2 and 3 had 1.

"Maybe in US u had that DK meta in trials. NBs were highly wanted in EU, and in fact jusrt befroe patch came out, top EU guild cleared AA below 10 min mark with 5 NB’s"

EU gamers are better at math than US gamers. They also plan better.

ipkonfigcub18_ESO

OP: You go roll a NB and take on a 1Dot that has tons of HP and can't be stunned.

I've watched your class over and over solo mobs that are insane and the DK stands there like it's nothing.

Stamden

ipkonfigcub18_ESO wrote: »

OP: You go roll a NB and take on a 1Dot that has tons of HP and can't be stunned.

I've watched your class over and over solo mobs that are insane and the DK stands there like it's nothing.

I would admit that, for rolling threw the leveling PvE content trash, DKs are probably the best at it. I don't see how that matters though. What I, and I would think many other people care about, it end-game content being balanced. That is, Trials and PvP.

Stamden

[

Aoifesan wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

deathpandax_ESO wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

Pretty much every single competitive Nightblade is running a full light set of armor and a Resto staff at this point and still hitting about half the DPS of DK/Sorc in trials. This is currently the most effective sustainable DPS spec we have available. With Stamina builds we can pretty much hit high numbers on Trash pulls only and are pretty much garbage on bosses. Your buddy may get high numbers on AoE pulls of trash but that is not what gets you in to trials.

Sorry but you are very wrong about this. The best NB build is pulling 1.2-1.3k right now, and you can ask anyone in the top trial guilds and they will confirm that.

Artemis wrote: »

deathpandax_ESO wrote: »

Yes but you see the main problem here is that ZoS is getting a lot of misinformation about Nightblades. Public opinion would have you think NBs are terrible and that is because 95% of them are running a stamina build. This is leading to the class being buffed. When fact is, NB casters are great and these buffs are just increasing the gap between them and the other classes' DPS builds right now.

Well that's exactly who the changes should be done for. The majority of NB players. It's *** that, say, only 5% of NBs can compete with other classes(not 100% of each of them, but much higher than 5%).

Stamina builds need a huge overhaul. But for now, any buffs to NB is just widening how much more DPS that NB casters are getting.

Artemis wrote: »

On my bar there's usually 1-2 weapon skills. Others are class skills. No damage. It's ridiculously small even compared to my friend's templar's with 2H dps... He gets 2 times higher DPS with those biting jabs haha(or 5 times higher on packs, since nbs don't have aoe). And he is 3 veteran ranks lower than me.

Nightblades do need buff right now on live servers. So I don't know what you're talking about(p.s. talking about 2handed nb).

This was mentioned many times: Stamina builds in general suck, it's not your class.

When I looked last night I don't think the top trials group had a NB and I think 2 and 3 had 1.

"Maybe in US u had that DK meta in trials. NBs were highly wanted in EU, and in fact jusrt befroe patch came out, top EU guild cleared AA below 10 min mark with 5 NB’s"

EU gamers are better at math than US gamers. They also plan better.

The top EU teams seem to uses a bunch of NBs, while US uses a bunch of Sorcs. Though Alacrity has admitted that this was because they had no NBs in their guild, and all of their DKs are now rerolling to NB. Apparently a combo of Sorc/NB would be best, I would believe that.

The fact that ranged DPS (Sorc) is putting out more DPS then melee DPS (DK) is absurd. But I guess that is a topic for another time.

Vuron

deathpandax_ESO wrote: »

ipkonfigcub18_ESO wrote: »

OP: You go roll a NB and take on a 1Dot that has tons of HP and can't be stunned.

I've watched your class over and over solo mobs that are insane and the DK stands there like it's nothing.

I would admit that, for rolling threw the leveling PvE content trash, DKs are probably the best at it. I don't see how that matters though. What I, and I would think many other people care about, it end-game content being balanced. That is, Trials and PvP.

This is the problem, though. Magicka based NB's running specific DoT builds may very well be able to compete with Sorcs and DK's now, but only in very specific encounters (group based, single target boss, very little movement). Basically, we'really only talking about trials and a handful of VR dungeons. These make up about .05% of the entire game. You'really complaining that DK's are no longer the best at 100% of the game and now are only the best at 99.95%.

How are these same NB's doing outside of trials?

Jaxom

deathpandax_ESO wrote: »

Ciarán wrote: »

deathpandax_ESO wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

Pretty much every single competitive Nightblade is running a full light set of armor and a Resto staff at this point and still hitting about half the DPS of DK/Sorc in trials. This is currently the most effective sustainable DPS spec we have available. With Stamina builds we can pretty much hit high numbers on Trash pulls only and are pretty much garbage on bosses. Your buddy may get high numbers on AoE pulls of trash but that is not what gets you in to trials.

Sorry but you are very wrong about this. The best NB build is pulling 1.2-1.3k right now, and you can ask anyone in the top trial guilds and they will confirm that.

Artemis wrote: »

deathpandax_ESO wrote: »

Yes but you see the main problem here is that ZoS is getting a lot of misinformation about Nightblades. Public opinion would have you think NBs are terrible and that is because 95% of them are running a stamina build. This is leading to the class being buffed. When fact is, NB casters are great and these buffs are just increasing the gap between them and the other classes' DPS builds right now.

Well that's exactly who the changes should be done for. The majority of NB players. It's *** that, say, only 5% of NBs can compete with other classes(not 100% of each of them, but much higher than 5%).

Stamina builds need a huge overhaul. But for now, any buffs to NB is just widening how much more DPS that NB casters are getting.

Artemis wrote: »

On my bar there's usually 1-2 weapon skills. Others are class skills. No damage. It's ridiculously small even compared to my friend's templar's with 2H dps... He gets 2 times higher DPS with those biting jabs haha(or 5 times higher on packs, since nbs don't have aoe). And he is 3 veteran ranks lower than me.

Nightblades do need buff right now on live servers. So I don't know what you're talking about(p.s. talking about 2handed nb).

This was mentioned many times: Stamina builds in general suck, it's not your class.

The imperative is upon you to prove that "the best NB build is 1.2k-1.3k". If you want the community to accept this as fact then you need to provide the build being used and screenshot/video proof of these numbers. Hearsay, telling people to "go look it up", and asking people to take your word for it upon blind faith will not work or sway anyone. Without solid proof, your claims can be (and has been thus far) dismissed just as easily as you have made them.

I've been trying to avoid announcing it publicly, to try to prolong the time it takes before trial groups "LF1M NB DPS w/ Certain build" happens.

But sure Ill ask my friend to see if be can post a video for you guys.

Honestly,
I would rather have this, than not be able to participate at all, which is what has happened since trials have come to the game. Is 1.2k AoE? Is that single target with group buffs or is that solo? Saying I can do 1.2k dps means nothing if there is no context.

Sure, let me drop Veil of Blades on 6 Mobs and spam a Destro Staff Aoe and I can hit that with group buffs. Solo, I'm lucky to crack 400 ST dps.

Stamden

Vuron wrote: »

deathpandax_ESO wrote: »

ipkonfigcub18_ESO wrote: »

OP: You go roll a NB and take on a 1Dot that has tons of HP and can't be stunned.

I've watched your class over and over solo mobs that are insane and the DK stands there like it's nothing.

I would admit that, for rolling threw the leveling PvE content trash, DKs are probably the best at it. I don't see how that matters though. What I, and I would think many other people care about, it end-game content being balanced. That is, Trials and PvP.

This is the problem, though. Magicka based NB's running specific DoT builds may very well be able to compete with Sorcs and DK's now, but only in very specific encounters (group based, single target boss, very little movement). Basically, we'really only talking about trials and a handful of VR dungeons. These make up about .05% of the entire game. You'really complaining that DK's are no longer the best at 100% of the game and now are only the best at 99.95%.

How are these same NB's doing outside of trials?

I am talking about Trials, which is the only end-game PvE. Hardly a small part of the game. But yes, I would like ST DK and NB DPS to match up.

Jaxom wrote: »

deathpandax_ESO wrote: »

Ciarán wrote: »

deathpandax_ESO wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

Pretty much every single competitive Nightblade is running a full light set of armor and a Resto staff at this point and still hitting about half the DPS of DK/Sorc in trials. This is currently the most effective sustainable DPS spec we have available. With Stamina builds we can pretty much hit high numbers on Trash pulls only and are pretty much garbage on bosses. Your buddy may get high numbers on AoE pulls of trash but that is not what gets you in to trials.

Sorry but you are very wrong about this. The best NB build is pulling 1.2-1.3k right now, and you can ask anyone in the top trial guilds and they will confirm that.

Artemis wrote: »

deathpandax_ESO wrote: »

Yes but you see the main problem here is that ZoS is getting a lot of misinformation about Nightblades. Public opinion would have you think NBs are terrible and that is because 95% of them are running a stamina build. This is leading to the class being buffed. When fact is, NB casters are great and these buffs are just increasing the gap between them and the other classes' DPS builds right now.

Well that's exactly who the changes should be done for. The majority of NB players. It's *** that, say, only 5% of NBs can compete with other classes(not 100% of each of them, but much higher than 5%).

Stamina builds need a huge overhaul. But for now, any buffs to NB is just widening how much more DPS that NB casters are getting.

Artemis wrote: »

On my bar there's usually 1-2 weapon skills. Others are class skills. No damage. It's ridiculously small even compared to my friend's templar's with 2H dps... He gets 2 times higher DPS with those biting jabs haha(or 5 times higher on packs, since nbs don't have aoe). And he is 3 veteran ranks lower than me.

Nightblades do need buff right now on live servers. So I don't know what you're talking about(p.s. talking about 2handed nb).

This was mentioned many times: Stamina builds in general suck, it's not your class.

The imperative is upon you to prove that "the best NB build is 1.2k-1.3k". If you want the community to accept this as fact then you need to provide the build being used and screenshot/video proof of these numbers. Hearsay, telling people to "go look it up", and asking people to take your word for it upon blind faith will not work or sway anyone. Without solid proof, your claims can be (and has been thus far) dismissed just as easily as you have made them.

I've been trying to avoid announcing it publicly, to try to prolong the time it takes before trial groups "LF1M NB DPS w/ Certain build" happens.

But sure Ill ask my friend to see if be can post a video for you guys.

Honestly,
I would rather have this, than not be able to participate at all, which is what has happened since trials have come to the game. Is 1.2k AoE? Is that single target with group buffs or is that solo? Saying I can do 1.2k dps means nothing if there is no context.

Sure, let me drop Veil of Blades on 6 Mobs and spam a Destro Staff Aoe and I can hit that with group buffs. Solo, I'm lucky to crack 400 ST dps.

Single Target

Skirmish840

The problem is balances are being made for hybrid class builds, not native ones. An NB is meant to have two one handed weapons and a switch to bow on the other bar it;'s in the Bosmer and Khajit racials, they wear medium armor, they have passives for sneak ffs. STAMINA needs to be fixed, there are many NB'S who have zero interest in playing around with magic outside of our mele abilities.

The problem is there's too many choices and many of us are stuck with archetypes in our freaking heads, because that's what we enjoy playing. I want a stabby stabby sneaky assassin. The game said I could role any character and make what I want with it, at the moment I'm told I HAVE to shoot bolts of lightening to be effective to which I say get stuffed, give me back my ability choose what I believe my character was meant for and until now was a staple in mmo's.

How boring will it be if everyone is running around blasting each other with bolts of lightening, really, you wanted to get away from archetypes and now we're all forced to be magic wielding mages...

Stop with the Sorc worship already, please....

Skirmish840

NombreDeLaBeast wrote: »

It is a mixture of melee/stamina not being cost effective and powerful and the fact that armor is pretty much a tacked on stat at this point. (since Light armor can get to the point of being more viable than heavy even in melee fights)

Some changes:
Armor, spell pen, spell resistance, armor pen, and stamina builds in general are kind of wonky in this game. A person wearing light armor should not be near the cap unless they have some heavy armor pieces and passives learned. But on the flip side a heavy armor using character should not worry about physical damage unless it is accompanied by a large armor penetration. Medium armor should be about mobility, stealth, and medium defense. (they are on the right track but medium armor is still lacking. Maybe add a dodge mechanic that is increased with more medium armor or something.

First thing that needs to be looked at is the physical weapon damage vs Magical spell damage. As it stands spells outclass anything that stamina has to offer, and this is the biggest balancing issue that's facing the eso population today (save for the broken mechanics and whatnot) Melee damage should tear through characters with little armor, be it npc or player. Stamina cost should be lowered or make it so that the high cost abilities do much more damage relative to cost. (again against lower armor characters.)

Magic users on the other hand should do massive damage to those with little to no spell resistance. This would mean that magic using characters would be able to tear through those that only stack armor, but would have difficult times when facing other mages, hybrids, or anything with high spell resistance. As it stands now mages have good defense and amazing offence, while heavies and stamina builds...are meh.

Sneak attacks, if done by a character that is build for stealth, armor penetration, and stamina should be feared. they should be able to drop caster units in an instant if caught unaware, and be able to damage heavy units enough to put up a fight when or if they turn on the assassin. But the drawback to this character is that if they are caught unaware by a mage or heavy they would be hard pressed on winning...unless they got close to the mage or had a very high armor penetration rating.

Bow users and dagger wielding characters would have the highest armor pen available. Magic characters would be able to rain death upon the land BUT they could be taken out easily against the right type of characters. Heavies should be able to survive the physical onslaught of many without breaking a sweat. But be weak against magic and sneak attacks. Medium armor should be viable for both stealth and mobility. What this would do would force players to take different roles in order to combat different scenarios. If an enemy group has plenty of heavy units than they would be hard pressed against ranged and caster units, but if that same heavy unit got the drop on the caster unit than the casters would be at a disadvantage.

Hybrids (battle mages and the like) would have medium armor ratings, and spell resistance. This would allow the player to either survive melee combat easier and caster combat easier, but in the end a sneak attack stealth attack would ruin their day. They would also be easier to take out compared to the specialized units (straight magic caster or melee brute character.)

LIGHTNING FORM AND BOUND ARMOR:
These two abilities throw the proposed idea above for a loop. these abilities when combines with certain builds allow for far greater armor and spell resistance than available to other characters. This could very well make sorcs very OP (more so than they are currently portrayed, I have a VR6 sorc so I am not bashing them per say.) The only thing that could counter these abilities would be characters with very high armor pen abilities or spell pen abilities.

Proposed changes: Lightning form should not offer more armor, spell resistance sure. keep the aoe damage bubble, but also increase spell power while it is activated. But remove the armor bonus (bound armor does that already.)

I cannot think how to change bound armor...with this ability and light armor players are able to max out both spell resistances and armor stats. The only counter to the above system would again be a very high spell pen rating or armor pen rating.

--TL;DR--
Lower light armor rating.
increase stealth character threat.
Make armor more meaningful so that heavy armor is the go to physical resistant armor rather than light armor.
fix stamina cost vs power ratio.
More emphasis on armor penetration and spell penetration on some builds.

Maybe remove the classes, and if classes are so important...just offer 3: thief, mage, warrior. But keep the armor and weapons open to all. This would require combining some trees, removing others, and even making some class abilities that run off of stamina rather than the all mighty magicka.

That is perfect, and it was worth reading the long version too

dracobains_ESO

deathpandax_ESO wrote: »

NBs have many skills that support a bow/staff build. .

So I would like to see justification for this on how we have "many skills" which support a bow build. Especially since you are insinuating we make a better bow class... but please explain the basis of you statement.

Personally when I look at the NB skills I see melee not ranged. Also, staffs work equally well for anyone but a bit better for some classes not NBs.

Stamden

dracobains_ESO wrote: »

deathpandax_ESO wrote: »

NBs have many skills that support a bow/staff build. .

So I would like to see justification for this on how we have "many skills" which support a bow build. Especially since you are insinuating we make a better bow class... but please explain the basis of you statement.

Personally when I look at the NB skills I see melee not ranged. Also, staffs work equally well for anyone but a bit better for some classes not NBs.

Mark Target, Haste, Strife, Cripple, Master Assassin Passive

dracobains_ESO

This has been brought up repeatedly, but the balancing is not so much in each class as it is with the weapon and armor choices and the resulting synergy. If a rogue does fine using the same castalot magika builds then it is not the class which is the inherent issue but the weapon builds.

We need to start making specific comparison directed at weapon builds and less about class. Show me high dps builds based on stamina weapons in comparison to the same class using destro.