Please.. enough with the DK nerfs/NB buffs

Stamden

Old Post:

NBs are hitting the highest DPS in the game right now by far. DKs are getting lower then Sorcs, which makes no sense at all because Sorcs are ranged DPS and therefor should be lower at a range. This last 1.1.3 nerf really ruined DK DPS, and I wish they had not done it. WIthout the ult generation/standard nerf, DK and NB DPS would be on-par with each other.


Some other peoples take on it:
"Ok…. Everytime I see NB’s whining about their Class, we always point out that NB caster Builds are incredibly powerful, and have some of the best DPS and utility in the game nowThere response is always “Well…That’s a Caster Build, I wanna play with medium armor, duel wield, and a bow!”
Newflash ya noobs…Those DK’s you’re whining about, They’re not running around with Heavy Armor and a 2 hander pulling 1k DPS..They’re running a Caster Build…Same as the Sorcs, You can’t bloody whine your class isn’t competing with other classes in DPS, then complain its not your *** build that’s doing it after we point out how to accomplish it.

You want high DPS right now, You run light armor/staves..It doesn’t matter which class you pick..Your class isn’t broken, its not bad..it isn’t weak…Stamina Builds are..Soon as you fools get that into your thick skulls the better off you’ll be."



"I guess some people are argueing about different things. Things like class balance in PvP can be very opinionated. Some people think having invisibilty is better, some people think having a self heal is better. And honestly its choices like that, that should have went into your class choice decision. Class balance, atleast to me, should put you in line with other DPS numbers that other people are pulling. So here is what annoys me:

Max NB DPS Pre-patch: ~1k Post-patch: ~1.2k

Max DK DPS Pre-patch: ~1.2k Post-patch: ~900

If they didn’t nerf DK DPS, and just buffed NB DPS, then they would both be at 1.2k. Now this may seem irrelevant, but when you are going Trial times, it matters. If your going for an optimal group now, then you wouldn’t want any DKs. And I know for the last 2 weeks the roles have been reversed and NBs weren’t wanted I. A group. (Other then 1-2 for VoB damage mitigation). It’s important enough to the point that both of the top Aetherian teams are having multiple people reroll NB.

Again, all I care about is melee classes having around the same DPS, so we can stop cherry-picking members and stop having to reroll to get optimal teams."

TL:DR All classes are terrible with stamina builds right now. Do stamina builds need a buff? Yes. Buffing/nerfing classes before stamina and magika builds get balanced is only going to make the game more unbalanced.

LameoveR

It's a NB's month. Your month was April. May was Templar's month.
Pull up panties and mourn in far dark corner.
Next month is a Sorc's month.

khele23eb17_ESO

If (IF!) the NB caster builds (cloth, staff, magicka, spell crit) are really overperforming, sure bring them down a bit but you have to realize theres a whole separate playstyle between them and the full stam/med/weapon skills builds (which barely anyone plays in VR and need a huge buff). What about the melee/magicka/medium/weapon crit builds which are somewhat viable in VR at least during leveling? Theyre nowhere near as good as the caster builds but would most likely be nerfed along with them.

Hodorius

LameoveR wrote: »

It's a NB's month. Your month was April. May was Templar's month.
Pull up panties and mourn in far dark corner.
Next month is a Sorc's month.

Exactly!
Wait until the rotation is complete and it´s your turn again!

Truno

Chill dawg just chill. Eventually everything will be ok. Also take in consideration dks have great survivability.

Skirmish840

So now I get it, I have to play a certain build, (means shoot bolts of lightening) to be effective on my NB, I can't just rely on my native build (means daggers and bow) oh well, let me know if I got that through my thick skull yet won't you, because up till now I thought I would be able to play my class with any relevant build and be quite effective, like I dunno daggers and bow, what I was born to use. I have no interest in shooting bolts of lightening outa my arse EVER.....

Stamden

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

If (IF!) the NB caster builds (cloth, staff, magicka, spell crit) are really overperforming, sure bring them down a bit but you have to realize theres a whole separate playstyle between them and the full stam/med/weapon skills builds (which barely anyone plays in VR and need a huge buff). What about the melee/magicka/medium/weapon crit builds which are somewhat viable in VR at least during leveling? Theyre nowhere near as good as the caster builds but would most likely be nerfed along with them.

Yes but you see the main problem here is that ZoS is getting a lot of misinformation about Nightblades. Public opinion would have you think NBs are terrible and that is because 95% of them are running a stamina build. This is leading to the class being buffed. When fact is, NB casters are great and these buffs are just increasing the gap between them and the other classes' DPS builds right now.

Truno

deathpandax_ESO wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

If (IF!) the NB caster builds (cloth, staff, magicka, spell crit) are really overperforming, sure bring them down a bit but you have to realize theres a whole separate playstyle between them and the full stam/med/weapon skills builds (which barely anyone plays in VR and need a huge buff). What about the melee/magicka/medium/weapon crit builds which are somewhat viable in VR at least during leveling? Theyre nowhere near as good as the caster builds but would most likely be nerfed along with them.

Yes but you see the main problem here is that ZoS is getting a lot of misinformation about Nightblades. Public opinion would have you think NBs are terrible and that is because 95% of them are running a stamina build. This is leading to the class being buffed. When fact is, NB casters are great and these buffs are just increasing the gap between them and the other classes' DPS builds right now.

Im a nb and yeah we have some bugged skills like every class but I completely agree stamina builds are the biggest issue.

OkieDokie

deathpandax_ESO wrote: »

Max NB DPS Pre-patch: ~1k Post-patch: ~1.2k

Max DK DPS Pre-patch: ~1.2k Post-patch: ~900

Link us these videos where solo NB can get that in single target please. And what's exactly the buff are you talking about?

Mjoel

I like it that Dragon Knight Online finally gets back to Elder Scrolls... DK really are too strong thats why there were more and more DKs in PvP (after the Batswarm got fixed)

LameoveR

Say thanks that here is only four classes. There would be more pain if it were eight or so.

Mehsive

I haven't tried out the Caster Build on my NB yet, but i agree, that they need to stop nerfing and buffing classes at the moment anyway (even if DK's are a bit overpowered on live still lets be honest), and instead hit the Armor skill lines and Weapon lines with a huge balancing stick.

In ZoS's defence, most of the NB "Buffs" are actually just fixing passives and synergies that were always meant to be there, but just never worked in the first place haha!

But at the end of the day, people should be allowed to whine if Stamina based builds don't work because I'd say roughly around 50% of the player-base most likely don't want to be casters, but want to be physical damage dealers!

I'd say that ZoS will need to balance weapon/armor skill lines first (and why not give some class skills a stamina cost for christ's sake!!), then they will need to do some class balancing immediately afterwards, at the moment it's a slightly skewed process IMO.

Keep it up ZoS, it's good to see the constant updates from your the road ahead posts and i'm a firm believer that end game will become great soon!

OkieDokie

Mehsive wrote: »

I haven't tried out the Caster Build on my NB yet, but i agree, that they need to stop nerfing and buffing classes at the moment anyway (even if DK's are a bit overpowered on live still lets be honest), and instead hit the Armor skill lines and Weapon lines with a huge balancing stick.

NB needs a massive buff.

People keep spreading they heard of a friend of friend of friend of their neighbors that plays a NB and can catch up with dk and sorcs and this guy just never shows up. He would be a rock star if he existed.

Now and then someone claims to achieve a high dps in single target solo with a NB and when you ask how they did it...they just vanish.

People must stop doing a disfavor to a large percentage of players and stop giving wrong feedback.

Kraven

Sounds like another Dk throwing a hissy fit. There are literally broken skills in the NB tree, skills and passives are not doing what they should be doing. DK on the other hand has High survivability, High damage, High utility and High CC in the class skills alone.

I've put the weak unskilled playing mage builds to shame with medium armor melee AE dps, on both DK and NB. Dk is so much simpler, easy mode to put up those numbers but still have the survivability. It is so simple to reach high dps numbers with mage builds, regardless of class that yes they need to be balanced. The game CAN NOT require every single player to run around with resto and destro staff combo to be effective.

1. Melee DPS should be higher as we're in the mix and there are a ton of fights where we're forced to sit out all together. (It would be nice if everyone wasn't forced to go range 100% on some fights)

2. Melee should not require the target to be rooted in order to do increased damage (DW), at least DK gets a root for this bonus.

3.Mages should not be able to survive standing in the middle of a ton of mobs holding block and spamming Pulsar regardless of class. Hell remove the ability to cast spells while blocking any way, shouldn't be possible. Reduce the effectiveness of block with staves.

Nightblade needs to have the skills and passives that do not work correctly to be fixed. If Nightblade was on par you wouldn't see trial groups with so many DKs/Sorcs and 1-2 Temps.

Standard has been OP from the start, there is no denying it when it could be spammed several times in one fight. Lowered so it could only be spammed every single fight, unless it was a long fight then it was a couple of times during still. Still it is the most spammed Ultimate and the fact you can spam an Ultimate in the first place is just silly. Veil is great, Nova is great but side by side Standard is almost always up and ready.

Devlinne

Dk runs into a crowd of 10, kills 4, maybe 5, then dies.
What happens when a NB runs into a crowd of 10 eh?

For the LULZ! You have the NERVE to use NB as a comparison......My god-___-

P.S. Crowd of 10 PPL, not MOBS.

Kraven

I love my NB so do have to add that I do not think they need to be buffed up hugely. Letting Refreshing path hit the group is nice but not in anyway game breaking "OMG OP!" The skills that do not work as intended do need to be fixed.

What at all in the http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/100627/nightblade-update/p1 has you concerned they're being buffed above other classes? Or is this just a weak attempt at misdirection? No, no don't look at my build!?!?

RivenCsky

deathpandax_ESO wrote: »

Max NB DPS Pre-patch: ~1k Post-patch: ~1.2k

Max DK DPS Pre-patch: ~1.2k Post-patch: ~900

It was interesting reading the Road Ahead post today from ESO and as expected the Templar was not even mentioned. Templar Each Patch ~400 DPS

Anyhow these are two of the items coming up that I thought are relevant to this thread.

• The Dragonknight is still a bit stronger than intended, and we’ll be making some small changes over time to the class. Our intent—no matter what you read on the internet—is not to nerf DKs into Oblivion (so to speak), but to continue tweaking them until they are in line with the survivability of the other classes.

• We also know that Nightblades are reporting they are underpowered. I know all about this, as my main character is a Nightblade, and I’ve been running into some of these same issues myself. Again, just like the DK, we’re not going to make wholesale changes quickly; instead, we’re going to make small, incremental adjustments until NB class abilities fall in line with other class abilities.

dracobains_ESO

I am a nightblade that refuses to play a caster style rogue. I would rather not play at all if that is their vision. However, I completely agree that the nightblade class is not broken in its basic design it is the stam aspect of this game that is completely dysfunctional making many of the more traditional style rogue archetypes people play just horrible. But this will probably hold true for most classes trying to build stam based characters.

There is still a lot of bugginess with the class. Whatever was done in the last patches has made disguise work like crap half the time and just a plethora of clunky partially functioning abilities. So this aspect needs a serious amount of effort put forward but the majority of what feels wrong with the class is really a deficiency with stam based weapons.

Kypho

i love the qq from clearly overpowered DKs. NB can be the best dps? lol. try dk you baddie, you do more dps than NB single or aoe. try out the survivability of nb vs lolDK. lol at you defenders of the OPness

Zabus

Your first quote completely rendered your desire to nerf NBs irrelevant.

"You want high DPS right now, You run light armor/staves..It doesn’t matter which class you pick..Your class isn’t broken, its not bad..it isn’t weak…Stamina Builds are"

If everyone resorts to LA/STAFF to achieve dps, then how are NBs magically on top of DKs?

Ult regeneration nerf affects NBs, Sorcs, and Templars as well not just DKs.

Your argument doesn't make any sense at all.

Kypho

Overall, if you compare NB and DK, OVERALL DK is much much much better. you cry about like 200 dmg and you are more effective 1 on 1 or more on you. dont talk BS.

Pangnirtung

Devlinne wrote: »

Dk runs into a crowd of 10, kills 4, maybe 5, then dies.
What happens when a NB runs into a crowd of 10 eh?

For the LULZ! You have the NERVE to use NB as a comparison......My god-___-

P.S. Crowd of 10 PPL, not MOBS.

THIS one thousand times!

khele23eb17_ESO

deathpandax_ESO wrote: »

Yes but you see the main problem here is that ZoS is getting a lot of misinformation about Nightblades. Public opinion would have you think NBs are terrible and that is because 95% of them are running a stamina build. This is leading to the class being buffed. When fact is, NB casters are great and these buffs are just increasing the gap between them and the other classes' DPS builds right now.

If ZOS are actually reading the threads, Im pretty sure they know its not the caster NBs complaining about being severely underpowered.

Stamden

Devlinne wrote: »

Dk runs into a crowd of 10, kills 4, maybe 5, then dies.
What happens when a NB runs into a crowd of 10 eh?

For the LULZ! You have the NERVE to use NB as a comparison......My god-___-

P.S. Crowd of 10 PPL, not MOBS.

Make a DK and try that then. I'll be laughing at the results.

Kypho wrote: »

i love the qq from clearly overpowered DKs. NB can be the best dps? lol. try dk you baddie, you do more dps than NB single or aoe. try out the survivability of nb vs lolDK. lol at you defenders of the OPness

I'm in the #2 Trials group in NA. I wouldn't be making this thread if it wasn't for the top groups having to reroll NBs this week. They are already at the higher DPS, and because if people like the previous few posters above this (people who don't know how to play NB, or haven't experienced end-game content), the class will only get better.

xsfkxnub19_ESO wrote: »

Your first quote completely rendered your desire to nerf NBs irrelevant.

"You want high DPS right now, You run light armor/staves..It doesn’t matter which class you pick..Your class isn’t broken, its not bad..it isn’t weak…Stamina Builds are"

If everyone resorts to LA/STAFF to achieve dps, then how are NBs magically on top of DKs?

Ult regeneration nerf affects NBs, Sorcs, and Templars as well not just DKs.

Your argument doesn't make any sense at all.

DKs ran a build that had 3 different DoTs, each usually criting. So you can see how getting much less ult from DoT crits impact them much, much more.

Mephos

Max NB DPS Pre-patch: ~1k Post-patch: ~1.2k

Max DK DPS Pre-patch: ~1.2k Post-patch: ~900

max temp dps .. 600

Xsorus

Skirmish840 wrote: »

So now I get it, I have to play a certain build, (means shoot bolts of lightening) to be effective on my NB, I can't just rely on my native build (means daggers and bow) oh well, let me know if I got that through my thick skull yet won't you, because up till now I thought I would be able to play my class with any relevant build and be quite effective, like I dunno daggers and bow, what I was born to use. I have no interest in shooting bolts of lightening outa my arse EVER.....

Again, If you want to have max DPS in the game, guess what -snip-..You're going to be a Staves with Light Armor User...It doesn't matter which class you pick..That's your only option. You crying about your native build sucking doesn't change this fact. Stamina is terrible all around, Night Blades aren't.

Why this isn't sinking in yet with you i'll never understand

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Flaming]

Fshober28b14_ESO

Everyone knew eventually balancing was going to bring all the 4 classes in line with each other over time. It should be no surprise and no shock that the classes that have abnormally stood out as vastly superior to the others would eventually be brought in line with the others.

DK is by far most universally the most over powered in every way you can detail, from raw damage, defense, utility, low cost resources of skills compared to other classes and can best take advantage of gear and stats etc to further illuminate this, and on and on.

LISTEN CLOSELY with your non-troll ears: Now I for one wouldn't want to take away from a class, but bring up the ones that are lacking by comparison that clearly need it(and NO I am not a NB, I am a Temp). Now it's one thing that you don't want to see your class diminished, and like I just said, I personally am not at all for doing that...but you want to keep your class the same OP factor, but then you also want to have a say in another class that does need a boost to NOT be brought up inline. That's asking too much and one has to wonder.....this begs the argument that you KNOW your class is OP, and you know other class can touch it in OP factor and you WANT to keep it that way. Sorry bud, balancing is INC and learn to embrace it or why do you play mmos? Even if ESO originally launched spit polished to eye blinding perfection in all the other areas its been plagued with since launch.....balancing is ALWAYS an ongoing process over time in a new game that eventually finds its sweet spot in EVERY MMO.

Understand that balancing works both ways, these changes are not always permanent, and if the pendulum needs to swing back in the other direction again it will. I played Rift for it's first 2 years+ and the major balancing in the first 6 months was really brutal until it eventually started smoothing out, and the heavy balancing started to slowly fade out to just really casual minor balance tweaks that still go on to this day if it's even necessary.

Class changes are always hard on all of us..... initially, but it does pass. It only makes the combat more meaningful and skillful and EVERYONE gets to feel like they have substantial power, utility, defensiveness, usefulness, contribution, etc.

Wanting stagnancy with imbalance for the sake of letting players, such as yourself, of just one or 2 classes out of 4 enjoy your classes only among other classes that cannot compete on your same class level on the hard numbers is rigid and selfish period.

Devlinne

deathpandax_ESO wrote: »

Make a DK and try that then. I'll be laughing at the results.

Ummm do u pvp?.....Thats ALL they ever do....and the results are as stated 8/10 times AT LEAST.

Sorry if my point is from ACTUAL HAPPENINGS INGAME and yours is from paper,calculations and opinion.
Sure PAPER your figures are impressive. The APPLICATION tho.
Simple test. NB solo a BOSS and DK solo a boss. Calculate the OUTPUT of damage factoring in HOW LONG can each of these classes sustain that output without DYING or running away....

Therein lies the problem. DKs raw survivability COUPLED with their DPS is what makes them the most OP class.
Nice try tho. That Hey NB DOES MOST dmage thing ALMOST worked...Almost^^

Zury1001ub17_ESO

Fshober28b14_ESO wrote: »

Everyone knew eventually balancing was going to bring all the 4 classes in line with each other over time. It should be no surprise and no shock that the classes that have abnormally stood out as vastly superior to the others would eventually be brought in line with the others.

DK is by far most universally the most over powered in every way you can detail, from raw damage, defense, utility, low cost resources of skills compared to other classes and can best take advantage of gear and stats etc to further illuminate this, and on and on.

LISTEN CLOSELY with your non-troll ears: Now I for one wouldn't want to take away from a class, but bring up the ones that are lacking by comparison that clearly need it(and NO I am not a NB, I am a Temp). Now it's one thing that you don't want to see your class diminished, and like I just said, I personally am not at all for doing that...but you want to keep your class the same OP factor, but then you also want to have a say in another class that does need a boost to NOT be brought up inline. That's asking too much and one has to wonder.....this begs the argument that you KNOW your class is OP, and you know other class can touch it in OP factor and you WANT to keep it that way. Sorry bud, balancing is INC and learn to embrace it or why do you play mmos? Even if ESO originally launched spit polished to eye blinding perfection in all the other areas its been plagued with since launch.....balancing is ALWAYS an ongoing process over time in a new game that eventually finds its sweet spot in EVERY MMO.

Understand that balancing works both ways, these changes are not always permanent, and if the pendulum needs to swing back in the other direction again it will. I played Rift for it's first 2 years+ and the major balancing in the first 6 months was really brutal until it eventually started smoothing out, and the heavy balancing started to slowly fade out to just really casual minor balance tweaks that still go on to this day if it's even necessary.

Class changes are always hard on all of us..... initially, but it does pass. It only makes the combat more meaningful and skillful and EVERYONE gets to feel like they have substantial power, utility, defensiveness, usefulness, etc.

Wanting stagnancy with imbalance for the sake of letting players, such as yourself, of just one or 2 classes out of 4 enjoy your classes only among other classes that cannot compete on your same class level on the hard numbers is rigid and selfish period.

Great post, i definitely agree with everything you said!

alexj4596b14_ESO

Kraven wrote: »

Sounds like another Dk throwing a hissy fit. There are literally broken skills in the NB tree, skills and passives are not doing what they should be doing. DK on the other hand has High survivability, High damage, High utility and High CC in the class skills alone.

I've put the weak unskilled playing mage builds to shame with medium armor melee AE dps, on both DK and NB. Dk is so much simpler, easy mode to put up those numbers but still have the survivability. It is so simple to reach high dps numbers with mage builds, regardless of class that yes they need to be balanced. The game CAN NOT require every single player to run around with resto and destro staff combo to be effective.

1. Melee DPS should be higher as we're in the mix and there are a ton of fights where we're forced to sit out all together. (It would be nice if everyone wasn't forced to go range 100% on some fights)

2. Melee should not require the target to be rooted in order to do increased damage (DW), at least DK gets a root for this bonus.

3.Mages should not be able to survive standing in the middle of a ton of mobs holding block and spamming Pulsar regardless of class. Hell remove the ability to cast spells while blocking any way, shouldn't be possible. Reduce the effectiveness of block with staves.

Nightblade needs to have the skills and passives that do not work correctly to be fixed. If Nightblade was on par you wouldn't see trial groups with so many DKs/Sorcs and 1-2 Temps.

Standard has been OP from the start, there is no denying it when it could be spammed several times in one fight. Lowered so it could only be spammed every single fight, unless it was a long fight then it was a couple of times during still. Still it is the most spammed Ultimate and the fact you can spam an Ultimate in the first place is just silly. Veil is great, Nova is great but side by side Standard is almost always up and ready.

The stoping staffs from casting while blocking wouldn't work because that would mean tanks could not taunt while blocking which is the point. The reason scorc's can do that is because of 1 ability which heals you for 65% of all crits done while attacking. It needs too be reduce too 45% instead of 65% is OP. I play a scorc I know it is!

Stamden

"DK is by far most universally the most over powered in every way you can detail, from raw damage, defense, utility, low cost resources of skills compared to other classes and can best take advantage of gear and stats etc to further illuminate this, and on and on."

It seems like most non-DKs think this way. I PvP alot (nearly 4m AP) and I just don't see it. Yes Dragon Blood is a solid self heal and will keep you up for a while, but people need to understand that it is an expensive skill and there is no way you going to have enough mana left for DPS if your casting Dragon Blood multiple times.

I guess it looks different from the outside looking in. Alot of people claim DKs are surviving zeros and tanking them solo, which is completely untrue. Yes, you can absorb loads of damage if you hold block in heavy armor and spam Dragon Blood. But your not doing any damage at that point, and your basically just prolonging your death. It LOOKS overpowered that it takes 10 people a few seconds to kill a DK, but it really just means that the DK has given up on doing anything damage wise. Is it any better that a Sorc and possibly an NB would have just used their escapes to get away?

People also need to understand that DK builds in PvP are very limited. Why? Because DKs have no ranged abilities which is huge in PvP. We also lack any means of an escape. I would trade Dragon Blood for Bolt Escape or Invis in a second. We also lack a proper gap closer which the other 3 classes have.

So we are limited to melee, and melee with no escapes. Think about that for a second. That limits us to pretty much tanking and only tanking. And with the talons/standard nerf, there is no reason to even pay attention to a tank in PvP.
People just kill your group mates and save you for last.

And I can deal with all off this, but if its going to get worse then this, then I feel like I am going to be forced to reroll.

And please people, look at this from an open mind. I know you have probably ran into a Dragon Blood spammer holding block and think they are the worst thing ever, but that is simply untrue.