OMG Bolt ESCAPE!!!!

ferzalrwb17_ESO

I have sniped a BE spammer from 200metres away or so with the current lag so it might be worth everyone trying to pull out a bow and hit snipe straight away and not giving up on the skill. It took about 30 seconds to go off but killed him and the sound of a snipe going that long was quite funny. He obviously felt safe and didn't bother to pot or bubble after spamming away.

200m snipe: OP! :P

NordJitsu

@Armitas‌

I gave an accurate recounting of the situation. Not sure what part of that is straw manning. Or do you mean the part where I said his arguments go weaker and weaker? That's my evaluation of the situation, again not straw manning.

Not sure you understand the term?

Armitas

NordJitsu wrote: »

@Armitas‌

I gave an accurate recounting of the situation. Not sure what part of that is straw manning. Or do you mean the part where I said his arguments go weaker and weaker? That's my evaluation of the situation, again not straw manning.

Not sure you understand the term?

Do you intend to dilute what you said to avoid the strawman? You already said what you said. In case you have forgotten your own words again I will paste them below...

NordJitsu wrote: »

Then he posted that video not long after while still claiming that BE was OP. You could tell he didn't really believe it any more though because his arguments got weaker and weaker and he eventually just stopped commenting on it all together.

Do you know what a strawman is? You accused him of intellectual dishonesty, are you sure you understand what that means?

Syndy

Since PTS will be public soon, we will all be able to create Template sorcs, and let these people defending BE counter it using their "counters".

Edit: Countering BE with BE is not a counter...

NordJitsu

@Armitas‌

Its when you (which you are doing, so I don't just mean this as the general you) intentionally commit argumentative fallacies in order to try to prove a point. Especially when this is a point/argument/claim that you yourself do not believe in. I believe that the person who made that video was being intellectually dishonest for a number of reasons.

You cannot make a video of yourself countering BE (twice) and still argue that BE cannot be countered. You could also clearly tell from the declining fervor of his arguments that he didn't believe what he was saying any more.

Again, none of that has anything to do with straw man, which is intentionally presenting a simplified our incomplete argument from your opponent so that you can more easily argue against it. The concepts are entirely seperate.

Let me know if you need any more help with definitions, but maybe do it via PM so we can keep the discussion on topic.

Armitas

NordJitsu wrote: »

@Armitas‌

Its when you (which you are doing, so I don't just mean this as the general you) intentionally commit argumentative fallacies in order to try to prove a point. Especially when this is a point/argument/claim that you yourself do not believe in. I believe that the person who made that video was being intellectually dishonest for a number of reasons.

You cannot make a video of yourself countering BE (twice) and still argue that BE cannot be countered. You could also clearly tell from the declining fervor of his arguments that he didn't believe what he was saying any more.

Again, none of that has anything to do with straw man, which is intentionally presenting a simplified our incomplete argument from your opponent so that you can more easily argue against it. The concepts are entirely seperate.

Let me know if you need any more help with definitions, but maybe do it via PM so we can keep the discussion on topic.

No. A strawman is a type of logical fallacy, but it is not to commit any logical fallacy. To commit a strawman is to intentionally misrepresent your opponent by taking advantage of the audiences ignorance of the persons position and then make yourself appear to "knock down" the opponent. Sound familiar?

NordJitsu wrote: »

Then he posted that video not long after while still claiming that BE was OP. You could tell he didn't really believe it any more though because his arguments got weaker and weaker and he eventually just stopped commenting on it all together.

Looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

An assertion would be your accusation of a logical fallacy on my part without representation. I would learn what a strawman is before going about making assertions like that. For obvious and apparent reasons I will decline your offer of "help" with definitions.

The video was not designed nor truly representative of BE to show that it is balanced in an escape scenario. To say that because BE was counterable in scenario x is not to say that BE is counterable in scenario Y. That is non sequitur.

Halrloprillalar

f0rgiv3n27b14_ESO wrote: »

Since PTS will be public soon, we will all be able to create Template sorcs, and let these people defending BE counter it using their "counters".

Edit: Countering BE with BE is not a counter...

Fine. Hit me up in-game on PTS (whenever it actually goes public), I'll even roll a NB just for you.

ferzalrwb17_ESO

NordJitsu wrote: »

Again, none of that has anything to do with straw man, which is intentionally presenting a simplified our incomplete argument from your opponent so that you can more easily argue against it. The concepts are entirely seperate.

Just to settle this.. that's not correct. The definition given below yours was..more... correct. Sorry but, in this instance, you're wrong and your opponent (friendly debate I hope) is correct.

I'm not sure, however, I agree that the term correctly applies in this situation. It's a bit of a vague link and people overuse the term when it should really only be used in black and white obvious situations.

As a neutral observer on the matter of whether either argument was a Strawman I'm going to say - Objections overruled: Neither clearly qualifies. Back to the topic at hand. :P

Armitas

ferzalrwb17_ESO wrote: »

(friendly debate I hope)

Absolutely. I would happily switch to his side and join him, but I need a good and valid reason to do so. I want to be on the correct side of the matter regardless of whether my original position turns out to be wrong. If I believe something, I want to know that the reasons for my belief are good ones.

chris.m.tannehill_ESO

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Flaming]

Nijjion

Personally don't think even having/not having a counter for the skill is the problem.

It's just the pure basis of the skill and what it does with no CD timer. The potential and lackluster 'counters' that work pretty much never against a competent sorc are all target based and rely on stamina than magicka. Stamina you waste majority of it getting out of the stun of the sorc... and then most the time out of range to all counters which would void the point of counters anyway.

Everyone keeps talking about the counters when they need to be more ongoing with why should sorcs get so much mobility. Do we want GW2 meta to happen when you if you want to be competitive in RvR you have to have the most mobility.

The skill doesn't need to be removed just needs to be changed to what it was first designed for and that's an escape out of melee, not an escape of any fight I want skill. The problem is that this type of skill has a cooldown and it's balanced that way... in ESO we don't have cooldowns so Zenimax have to come up with something else.

Sarevok_Anchev

Double or even triple cost and remove magicka regen effect after use. The negative effect is countered by Equilibrium anyway.

Mendoze

I think bolt escape should be instant cast PBAoE with 100% disintegrate chance and 100 meter radius. It's way too wimpy now, because I don't win every fight by spamming it. Vote yes if you share my vision

EDIT: I almost forgot, of course it shouldn't disintegrate other sorcerers. If it would kill sorcerers too, it would be overpowered...and I don't want to die from bolt escape.

OldSmeller

The bolt escape tactic only ever works in situations with minimal latency and no skill lag. If for whatever reason the responsiveness of the sources skills goes past 1.5 seconds then they die, horribly.

Sarevok_Anchev

OldSmeller wrote: »

The bolt escape tactic only ever works in situations with minimal latency and no skill lag. If for whatever reason the responsiveness of the sources skills goes past 1.5 seconds then they die, horribly.

Or they get away scotch free and no one has the latency to catch them.

Kingslayer

If bolt escape needs Nerfing and its costs increasing then all gap closers and pulls need their costs increasing to.

true2moon_ESO

all the scrubs love BE, god forbid you actually need some skill to play a game, just 1 button it out any time you get a challenge - gg nubs....

its idiotic to let a class escape PvP so easy, but then again that is why the pvp servers in this game are pretty much dead.

have fun grabbing ass chasing the other sorcs around. to bad you scrubs couldnt have just admitted it was a garbage skill for garbage players.

true2moon_ESO

Kingslayer wrote: »

If bolt escape needs Nerfing and its costs increasing then all gap closers and pulls need their costs increasing to.

yea this makes sense... lol I dont think you see any gap closers being abused like BE is...

Cody

the solution is simple:
put a cooldown
increase cost
make it NOT an instant cast

Teargrants

NookyZooky wrote: »

the solution is simple:
put a cooldown
increase cost
make it NOT an instant cast

I get it, you want me to just stand there and be your punching bag. So how bout instead of bolting, I just go afk and make a sammich every time? Deal?

Izatar

Lol. no. These fights are in slow motion. Against the really skilled sorceror you can't even get a target on them. Against some, I never see them at all! This demonstration does not show counters to bolt escape as abused by skilled players.

Diamond_10

Izatar wrote: »

Lol. no. These fights are in slow motion. Against the really skilled sorceror you can't even get a target on them. Against some, I never see them at all! This demonstration does not show counters to bolt escape as abused by skilled players.

lol this. i fought a sorc yesterday who was just bolt escaping everywhere around me and casting curse and insta crystal shards. He was v1 i was v12. Annihilated me.

Nerf this ability into the ground.

Teargrants

Diamond_10 wrote: »

lol this. i fought a sorc yesterday who was just bolt escaping everywhere around me and casting curse and insta crystal shards. He was v1 i was v12. Annihilated me.

Nerf this ability into the ground.

Tab target? If he's close enough to curse you, you're close enough to tab him. And if he's bolting that much, that's about half his magica reserve dumped into just bolt escape - meaning that if you were to just hold block and did absolutely nothing else, the curse and shards he can get off shouldn't be enough to kill you if you aren't a glass cannon.

Bolt escape makes ppl invisible now or am I missing something?

Kiljaz

Sile wrote: »

I had a really long post written, pointing out the exact reasons why BE is too strong, but most of the Sorcs won't actually care because they think they're good at the game.

It's a crutch for bad Sorcs, and in the hands of players who know what they're doing when engaging other players without a similar number of sorcs, the fight is already a predetermined outcome.

TLDR, if you use BE and think it's fine, you're bad.

If you use reflective scale, dragon blood, or vanish and you think you're good, you're wrong.

Izatar

Kirsika wrote: »

[
Bolt escape makes ppl invisible now or am I missing something?

\
Pretty much. It may be that people who are close to the server get more moves per second than people who are far. So I get sound affects and see their glowing path in a circle around me, but sometimes never see their toon at all for minutes at a time:(

Teargrants

That sounds more like the horrendous server lag that pops up every day.

Sile

Kiljaz wrote: »

Sile wrote: »

I had a really long post written, pointing out the exact reasons why BE is too strong, but most of the Sorcs won't actually care because they think they're good at the game.

It's a crutch for bad Sorcs, and in the hands of players who know what they're doing when engaging other players without a similar number of sorcs, the fight is already a predetermined outcome.

TLDR, if you use BE and think it's fine, you're bad.

If you use reflective scale, dragon blood, or vanish and you think you're good, you're wrong.

Good thing I'm a Templar

The amount of charges I have fail on Sorcs who are using BE is stupid, it starts and then fails when they BE again.

Yusuf

Diamond_10 wrote: »

Izatar wrote: »

Lol. no. These fights are in slow motion. Against the really skilled sorceror you can't even get a target on them. Against some, I never see them at all! This demonstration does not show counters to bolt escape as abused by skilled players.

lol this. i fought a sorc yesterday who was just bolt escaping everywhere around me and casting curse and insta crystal shards. He was v1 i was v12. Annihilated me.

Nerf this ability into the ground.

mayve he was just better than you

JosephChip

Huckdabuck wrote: »

Do you even PvP bro? I guess if you can't 2 button spam then it's not gaming. Baddies will be baddies.

It's sad because I pvp hours every day, while you CLEARLY have no idea what you are talking about. Ignorants will be ignorants, I guess.
And your reference to 2 button spam? What does it have to do with anything? You are just a silly person. Don't post if you have nothing relevant to say.

JosephChip

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

How does it not work?? Why isn't he tabbed as soon as you decide you want to kill him??? I am 100% sure invasion goes just as far as BE, so does crit charge and that annoying NB jump skill.

Is this a PEBKAC?

A lot of reasons. Even with an equal range for invasion and bolt escape, the sorcerer needs to be always exactly touching you before teleporting, otherwise you are already out of range. As you can easily imagine this isn't always the case. In fact it is very rare. If a sorcerer is standing even at a small range, as he should normally, you can kiss him goodbye if he decides so. If the sorcerer decides to teleport through you, then you can catch him. But in that case he is either using BE offensively or trying to run from multiple people.
A sorcerer can simply mash his BE key and teleport instantly in any direction. Even assuming he is still at range, you need to turn to face the direction he has gone for. This direction may not be obvious a lot of times. Even if you know where to turn, you still need time to do so. In that half a second a sorcerer can press his BE key a second time. He can simply keep mashing it. Tab targeting is not aimbotting.
What is more, any slight terrain irregularity will usually prevent invasion from working. The simple presence of a small slope can negate invasion. These irregularities are literally everywhere and will stand in your way 99% of the times. Let's not even mention the occasions where you actually pull off an invasion on him right on top of his BE. He teleports anyway but reappears stunned on the ground. Then you can either spend more stamina for another invasion to reach him. He will get up, immune to stun, and spam BE a dozen more times. See ya. That is, if he already wasn't immune to stun in the first place, as a good sorcerer would be when using BE.
Again, spamming invasion to catch up to BE is only viable for stamina based builds. Invasion costs a lot and you can't use it roughly more than 3 times if you are a magicka build.
The fact that BE is freely spammable while invasion needs to be targeted, have that targeting work with no delay/lag/obstacles and for the target to be in range make a whole world of a difference. They aren't even comparable.
Some times it works. When you can pull of a stun and burn down the sorc, or chain two/three lucky invasions. 90% of the times, hell no.
The most common scenario: you see a sorcerer 10 meters from you casting BE. What hope do you have to catch him? Zero. Only one class can ran off into oblivion at his whim. All the other classes have no choice but to stand their ground and die, or go for a short, slow, pathetic run.
To all of you dear sorcerers. Please try out any other class in PvP. Do this experiment. Then come back here and tell me how you feel.

p.s. And I still have to clarify that I don't want to see BE overnerfed or anything. Just make its cost incrementally higher when using it several times in a row. The fact that a sorc can teleport for half of Cyrodiil in a blink is terrible design, in my opinion. I am fine as long as it can be cast 2 or 3 times in a row. That is plenty of room to reposition, breath and even escape from fights.