ZOS wants casuals only?

Lowbei

lao wrote: »

Lowbei wrote: »

lao wrote: »

Nooblet wrote: »

Should 6 stand a chance against 12? Yes if they're coordinated and generally better players.

Should 6 players stand a chance against 25+? No imo

That said. I don't like the cap especially so low.

6 should stand a chance vs 1000 if they are that much better players. the problem in eso is that skill doesnt matter nearly enough. all u need is TS and a couple not entirely braindead ppl. they can have minor brain damage cos the game is so easy that its neglectable and that is the problem. it should be much much harder to farm zergs otherwise u get a bunch of mediocre players who suddenly feel like gods gift to gaming cos they can kill 4-5 times their own numbers without effort when in reality they are only slightly less braindead than the ppl they are killing.

leave aoes uncapped and nerf the damage and give us hard interupts and hard CC and 99% of those wannabe elite small mans will struggle and go back to zerging and only the truely good groups will prevail. theres so many pretenders in this game its hilarious.

^ lol this free rps random again.
adorable

thats the kind of pretender i was talking about. so many of those rp cows in this game that need to be put in place.

lol free rps get so angry. tell us again why no good guilds will group you so you solo

zombie2kornout

Lowbei,

When you mention that poll, are you talking about the poll on these forums?

If so, that is problematic because forums are full of a self-selecting, vocal minority who may or may not represent the player base at large. In other words, that poll, despite its conclusions (I voted no, myself), may be worthless because the sort of people who waste time on forums like these do not necessarily represent the community at large.

So, I am not sure why that represents such a large piece of your argument.

lao

zombie2kornout wrote: »

lao,

I do not really agree with that sentiment. The problem with heavily skill based games is that there will always be a large disparity between elite players and average players. Playing with elite players in a skill based game, if they are able to wipe the floor with more than several times their own numbers, is problematic because the game is about having fun. Nobody wants to get their ass kicked by Lebron James in pickup every day--it is not fun.

If it were arena PVP that would be fine because lower skill players could play with each other, but this game does not separate players in that way. As a result, elite players should not--even if they are that much better--destroy everyone else. Getting annihilated by an extremely dedicated and skilled team is great...once or twice. People at large probably do not want to replicate that experience consistently, so this game is not the place for more skill based results. There are games that cater to that crowd, but I do not think this is one of them. Skill should net you something obviously, but not on the order that you appear to be referring.

and ur solution is to dumb the game down so much that bads like Lowbei can compete till everyone is bored of spamming the same 5 buttons over and over and quits playing?

this is the problem with modern games and why they dont last. in order to keep ppl interested there needs to be a high skill ceiling. ppl need room to improve their play or they will get bored eventually.

sevcik.miroslaveb17_ESO

Actualy, you should not be able to stop entire army. It must have been a bug. It just sounds riddiculous to have one guy who stops marching army :-D

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO

zombie2kornout wrote: »

Lowbei,

When you mention that poll, are you talking about the poll on these forums?

If so, that is problematic because forums are full of a self-selecting, vocal minority who may or may not represent the player base at large. In other words, that poll, despite its conclusions (I voted no, myself), may be worthless because the sort of people who waste time on forums like these do not necessarily represent the community at large.

So, I am not sure why that represents such a large piece of your argument.

You do know that under 60% of U.S. citizens actually vote for the president and even less for political position like congress etc.

Basically what I'm saying is sure it's not all the players but if I asked 300 people if they like dogs or cats more I'm sure the % would still be the same if I asked 30, 000 probably not the exact same but roughly close.

lao

Lowbei wrote: »

lao wrote: »

Lowbei wrote: »

lao wrote: »

Nooblet wrote: »

Should 6 stand a chance against 12? Yes if they're coordinated and generally better players.

Should 6 players stand a chance against 25+? No imo

That said. I don't like the cap especially so low.

6 should stand a chance vs 1000 if they are that much better players. the problem in eso is that skill doesnt matter nearly enough. all u need is TS and a couple not entirely braindead ppl. they can have minor brain damage cos the game is so easy that its neglectable and that is the problem. it should be much much harder to farm zergs otherwise u get a bunch of mediocre players who suddenly feel like gods gift to gaming cos they can kill 4-5 times their own numbers without effort when in reality they are only slightly less braindead than the ppl they are killing.

leave aoes uncapped and nerf the damage and give us hard interupts and hard CC and 99% of those wannabe elite small mans will struggle and go back to zerging and only the truely good groups will prevail. theres so many pretenders in this game its hilarious.

^ lol this free rps random again.
adorable

thats the kind of pretender i was talking about. so many of those rp cows in this game that need to be put in place.

lol free rps get so angry. tell us again why no good guilds will group you so you solo

if there was a guild good enough id join them but there isnt. btw keep pretending u were good, it amuses me. cya on uthgard if u got the balls :>

Nijjion

Been playing games for 13 years with no AoE caps... been no such thing as QQ about 1 person being able to attack 200 people with 1 skill. Only since GW2 implemented them really.

zombie2kornout

lao,

I do not think that is entirely true. I think you have a point in saying that there should be a high skill ceiling (which I never argued against). However, as I said, skill should not enable a group of elite players to run roughshod over everyone else. Skill should mean something, but not everything.

I think my experience in Team Fortress 2 (pub matches) demonstrates what I mean pretty well. Skilled players in that game are very good and are able to make outsized impacts, but because of the role that luck (crit rockets, for instance) plays, they are not the be all end all of the game. In ranked matches between guilds--who value skill above all else--randomness is eliminated as much as possible. If these preferences carried over into pub games the result would be massacre at the hands of the elite players. The role of randomness in that game allows average players to get lucky and defeat skilled players in sometimes crucial moments.

Back to ESO, I am not sure the variable needs to be luck, but skill should not be the only thing that matters in the game. There must be artificial constraints on the effect of skill so that everyone else can have fun too. Getting "better" should have a benefit, but not of winning a 6 v 1000 (obviously an exaggeration).

Lowbei

laos butthurt about being a solo cuz he cant get grouped, is hilarious. sorry uthgard is down, and has been for months, and wont be back anytime soon. but like i said before, i run a freeshard if you wanna fight, but you are too scared. l2p eso and stop dodging to other games haha

i didnt play gw2 mojo, most of my people came from daoc, tho if xso says he did it, then likely he did and has videos of it, jussayin.

and zombie, couple things... irl polls use a sample of about 1500-2000 people to determine the views of millions of people. also, if it was in question (obviously should have been) then why not make a poll on the games launcher (like many games do) that forced everyone to vote once before logging in, since its such a big decision. this would show us that they care what we think, and would likely show the same result. yet they didnt, they simply dont care what their customers think, and even go so far as to send folsom to lie to us for misdirection.

"uh oh, they are pissed about this, better send folsom in there, just tell her to ignore the poll results and say its a bug fix lol"

Avidus

Lowbei wrote: »

haha it doesnt take a statistician to read the results of a poll.

the conclusion was factual, as they ignored the poll (ignoring their customers) and are nerfing aes which promotes zerg v zerg instead of competition. again, this isnt rocket science. try to keep up.

feel free to argue either of those two points, but i bet you dont even try lol

Show me this poll.
Show me where it says this poll was signed by every single player of the game.
Show me where it says that people with multiple forum accounts have not signed it twice.
Show me where it says people who do not actually play the game have not signed it.

Show me your facts mate.

zombie2kornout

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO wrote: »

zombie2kornout wrote: »

Lowbei,

When you mention that poll, are you talking about the poll on these forums?

If so, that is problematic because forums are full of a self-selecting, vocal minority who may or may not represent the player base at large. In other words, that poll, despite its conclusions (I voted no, myself), may be worthless because the sort of people who waste time on forums like these do not necessarily represent the community at large.

So, I am not sure why that represents such a large piece of your argument.

You do know that under 60% of U.S. citizens actually vote for the president and even less for political position like congress etc.

Basically what I'm saying is sure it's not all the players but if I asked 300 people if they like dogs or cats more I'm sure the % would still be the same if I asked 30, 000 probably not the exact same but roughly close.

I am aware of that, yes. It is also very clear that if everyone voted in all of those elections, the results could be much different. You need only Google search to see how elections skew differently in mid term vs presidential election years (down to the local level) due to the difference in turnout.

Also, your metaphor is not correct. In your metaphor, it would be like going to the Republican National Convention and taking a poll on abortion.

The forums predominantly attract a certain type of player who may not represent the community at large.

Lowbei

avidus you trying to argue the results of the poll is hilarious. you must not know how polls work. furthermore i mentioned a way that other mmos use to poll the entire server pop, but they obviously didnt wanna do that, so your point is invalidated by the fact that zos chose not to listen to forum polls and didnt care enough about what we wanted to do an official poll

roflcopter

Lowbei wrote: »

avidus you trying to argue the results of the poll is hilarious. you must not know how polls work. furthermore i mentioned a way that other mmos use to poll the entire server pop, but they obviously didnt wanna do that

Hey Lowbei, I was trying to do a quick search for the poll and didn't find it. Can you shoot the link here so people who haven't seen it can take a look.

Lowbei

roflcopter wrote: »

Lowbei wrote: »

avidus you trying to argue the results of the poll is hilarious. you must not know how polls work. furthermore i mentioned a way that other mmos use to poll the entire server pop, but they obviously didnt wanna do that

Hey Lowbei, I was trying to do a quick search for the poll and didn't find it. Can you shoot the link here so people who haven't seen it can take a look.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/88049/do-you-think-there-should-be-an-aoe-cap/p1

roflcopter

Lowbei wrote: »

roflcopter wrote: »

Lowbei wrote: »

avidus you trying to argue the results of the poll is hilarious. you must not know how polls work. furthermore i mentioned a way that other mmos use to poll the entire server pop, but they obviously didnt wanna do that

Hey Lowbei, I was trying to do a quick search for the poll and didn't find it. Can you shoot the link here so people who haven't seen it can take a look.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/88049/do-you-think-there-should-be-an-aoe-cap/p1

TY Now everyone can take a look at what he is talking about.

zombie2kornout

Lowbei,

I know how polling companies conduct polls. However, those polling operations try to make sure that their sample is not biased. The nature of a forum poll ensures that it is biased.

I agree, a poll from the launcher would be more accurate, but that is besides the point that your poll may or may not be useless.

Maybe they have not made a poll because they do not feel it is open to discussion--they as designers have decided (for better or worse) that caps fit the vision of their game.

lao

zombie2kornout wrote: »

lao,

I do not think that is entirely true. I think you have a point in saying that there should be a high skill ceiling (which I never argued against). However, as I said, skill should not enable a group of elite players to run roughshod over everyone else. Skill should mean something, but not everything.

I think my experience in Team Fortress 2 (pub matches) demonstrates what I mean pretty well. Skilled players in that game are very good and are able to make outsized impacts, but because of the role that luck (crit rockets, for instance) plays, they are not the be all end all of the game. In ranked matches between guilds--who value skill above all else--randomness is eliminated as much as possible. If these preferences carried over into pub games the result would be massacre at the hands of the elite players. The role of randomness in that game allows average players to get lucky and defeat skilled players in sometimes crucial moments.

Back to ESO, I am not sure the variable needs to be luck, but skill should not be the only thing that matters in the game. There must be artificial constraints on the effect of skill so that everyone else can have fun too. Getting "better" should have a benefit, but not of winning a 6 v 1000 (obviously an exaggeration).

i do understand your point but think about this.

if the game had a truely high skill ceiling all the mediocre players like that lowbei white trash would not be able to do what they do. they would join the rest of the zerglings. cos thats his tier to compete with. ergo there would be alot less groups that could actually pull zerg busting off. also if the game had a high skill ceiling it would only take a tiny mistake by one guy and even the few groups that can pull it off would die.

i perfectly understand what ur trying to say but u havent thought it through. if u think it to the end u will realize that a higher skill ceiling benefits the zergs more than the skilled players simply cos theres little to no room for errors when fighting superior numbers. however it is alot more satisfying for the really good players when they pulled it off than it is now. the only ones that truely get screwed over are the pretenders.

this is also the reason why u have guys like that lowbei nonfactor defending the current (non existing) skill ceiling. he knows what would happen to him and his crew when the game actually required skill.

and yes the 6 v 1000 was obviously an exaggaration to get my point abroad but i think u got that.

Lowbei

the fact that they decided to ignore the poll results and say that its a bug fix shows that not only do they not care what we think, but that they also feel that we are so stupid that we would forget that we dont like it if they say it was a bug.

how does folsoms answer affect the poll results? none, so why did she come say it? thats like buying a car and reading that its got standard safety features, but finding out later that it doesnt have airbags, then being told by the company that it was never supposed to have airbags.

Lowbei

lol lao sorry that you cannot compete and thus hate on those who can, but try not to cry ok bro?

lao

Lowbei wrote: »

lol lao sorry that you cannot compete and thus hate on those who can, but try not to cry ok bro?

soz cant hear you from DL. ull have to come to emain bro.

Lowbei

lao wrote: »

Lowbei wrote: »

lol lao sorry that you cannot compete and thus hate on those who can, but try not to cry ok bro?

soz cant hear you from DL. ull have to come to emain bro.

soz DL doesnt exist since uthgard has been down for months lol. l2p eso

lao

Lowbei wrote: »

lao wrote: »

Lowbei wrote: »

lol lao sorry that you cannot compete and thus hate on those who can, but try not to cry ok bro?

soz cant hear you from DL. ull have to come to emain bro.

soz DL doesnt exist since uthgard has been down for months lol. l2p eso

what? u died in breifine again? shame.

zombie2kornout

lao,

I see what you are saying, but I am not sure ESO provides the right framework for that sort of play. Could you give an example of a game that provides the sort of play you are referring to in an MMO environment?

People seem to talk about DAoC a lot when they talk about skilled play, but even that game seems iffy when talking about punishing mistakes by small groups. 8mans were not punished adequately by "small" mistakes in that game when attacking zergs. There were so many "oh ***" buttons that it seemed relatively easy to disengage a botched zerg bomb. Do not get me wrong, the people in 8mans were all much better than I was at the game and deserved more success, but at points they approached a certain lame near invincibility with their ability to engage and disengage at will....or at least that is how I remember it.

Lowbei

now hes so defeated that hes given up since uthgard doesnt exist.

adorable. l2p eso haha

Lowbei

by the way, i actually know the uthgard gms, and even they think you are dodging hahaha

Bergs

lao wrote: »

zombie2kornout wrote: »

lao,

I do not really agree with that sentiment. The problem with heavily skill based games is that there will always be a large disparity between elite players and average players. Playing with elite players in a skill based game, if they are able to wipe the floor with more than several times their own numbers, is problematic because the game is about having fun. Nobody wants to get their ass kicked by Lebron James in pickup every day--it is not fun.

If it were arena PVP that would be fine because lower skill players could play with each other, but this game does not separate players in that way. As a result, elite players should not--even if they are that much better--destroy everyone else. Getting annihilated by an extremely dedicated and skilled team is great...once or twice. People at large probably do not want to replicate that experience consistently, so this game is not the place for more skill based results. There are games that cater to that crowd, but I do not think this is one of them. Skill should net you something obviously, but not on the order that you appear to be referring.

and ur solution is to dumb the game down so much that bads like Lowbei can compete till everyone is bored of spamming the same 5 buttons over and over and quits playing?

this is the problem with modern games and why they dont last. in order to keep ppl interested there needs to be a high skill ceiling. ppl need room to improve their play or they will get bored eventually.

I completely agree with that last part.

lao

zombie2kornout wrote: »

lao,

I see what you are saying, but I am not sure ESO provides the right framework for that sort of play. Could you give an example of a game that provides the sort of play you are referring to in an MMO environment?

People seem to talk about DAoC a lot when they talk about skilled play, but even that game seems iffy when talking about punishing mistakes by small groups. 8mans were not punished adequately by "small" mistakes in that game when attacking zergs. There were so many "oh ***" buttons that it seemed relatively easy to disengage a botched zerg bomb. Do not get me wrong, the people in 8mans were all much better than I was at the game and deserved more success, but at points they approached a certain lame near invincibility with their ability to engage and disengage at will....or at least that is how I remember it.

daoc, UO, darkfall are the first games that come in mind. in all of those the skill ceiling was very high. it is true that daoc had a bunch of oh *** buttons but those werent exclusive to elite 8mans. anyone could have them rather early on in the char progression. u only really needed like rr5-6 to be competitive even vs rr11-12 groups.

what u describe as disengage wasnt done through any abilities (well sos sometimes) mainly it was done with pre kiting. when fighting zergs in daoc u pretty much always kited the zerg all the time till u thinned their numbers out enough so u could actually take them head on. the exception were lord room bombings etc but thats comparable to eso zerg farming. theres very little skill involved in that.

the point is when ur kiting a zerg and one guy does a mistake and gets caught and dies u will have a hard time rezzing him once ur PR´s are used. since everyone in group is extremely important (except the offtank in that specific occasion maybe) for the overall performance of the group this usually means that ur gonna die eventually. if ur CC or debuff caster dies ur pretty much instantly done unless u can get a very quick rezz off which ofc is hard once ur instant rezzes are gone as ur constantly kiting. that beeing said there always is the possibility of a comeback but it most of the time required some miracle play.

it may not look like it from the pov of a player in the zerg but often enough those fights were on razors edge at several points throughout the whole engagement but thats also what made it superfun.

Kiwi

Lowbei wrote: »

like i said in the OP, they lied obviously, which really doesnt matter since we had a poll and voted against it.

no they didnt, nobody even said anything until they stated there was a cap then all of a sudden it was a huge gamebreaking issue

it wasnt then and it isnt now.

all it has ever been is hilarious to everyone who has read the ridiculous complaints about a system thats always been in place and is needed for balance

ZOS_CarolusS

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Lowbei

haha good call