ZOS wants casuals only?

Xsorus

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

It`s so funny, OP´s buddy Xsorus was making himself look like a fool in several GW2 threads with his attitude of "I`m so pro, I know everything, hua!"

He even claimed (and still claims I guess whenever he smells the opportunity to) to have created a ranger build that half of EU`s tpvp rangers were running way before him (except the asuran utility variation cuz not possible in tpvp).

It seems you really found each other, your attitude is so...similar, OP. How can mediocre players be so full of themselves? Do you high five each other every day to keep motivation up, whats ur secret?

What exactly did you guys achieve in GW2 again? Like teamQ leaderboards or such?

Please keep on entertaning me! Pretenders...

By the way, I`m agreeing on no cap on PBae.

Rofl.....Running Way before me huh?

Considering I created the build in the month before Shortbow got Nerfed, I'm curious how they managed to do that...

Not only were the Tpvp's in GW2 3 months later on even adopting my build, They whined so hard at it they had to have it nerfed because killing the "pet" was just to damn hard.

but by all means, Go surf my Post history in GW2, and go find any Post at any time, or any video of any time before My posting about BM Bunker builds (Aka Pain inverter)

You won't find it..Its why i'm considered the Creator of the Build you nub.

Dudis

Like i've said before...

Uncapping AoE would have the ironic effect of forcing people to spread out, thus making AoE LESS (!) effective.


I've never been a big fan of zerging/sieging but now i avoid it altogether because of how sick I am of seeing these balls of people running around.
It's completely counterintuitive, since they SHOULD be hit by more stuff and take more damage but are instead nearly immune to damage.

I'm sure this isn't how you intended it to be but it's how gamers work.




"We've got enemies incomming, stack up to soak their area damage!"
- vs -
"We've got enemies incomming, spread out to avoid area damage!"

Think about it...

trimsic_ESO

NordJitsu wrote: »

I'm fine with target caps on Talons, Impulse, Solar Barage, ect. Same as with Crystal Blast, Reflective Light, Meteor, or anything else thats target based or PBAoE.

Ground based AoEs however, like Standard, Nova, Lightning Splash, Wall of Elements, Cinder Storm, Negate, ect. should absolutely never have a target cap.

There's an easy counter to those. Move out of them. If you get locked in one, then you got out played. You lost.

Ground target AoEs should never have a cap.

The DK's Standard deals about 180 damage per second, right? So, let's take an example and let's do some basic maths.

There is no AOE cap for Standards, and 6 Standards are instantly deployed on the ground against an enemy raid of 36 people. Each Standard deals 180 damage per second to every enemy in the range; every enemy takes 180 * 6 = 1080 damage per second. In 3 seconds, the raid is entirely annihilated (and this is quite easy to do with Standard + Dark Talon, I have a video proving that).

Now, the same situation with an AOE cap for Standards. Each Standard deals 180 damage per second to every enemy in the range, but only 6 enemies are affected. Since 6 Standards have been deployed, 6 * 6 = 36 enemies are affected by these Standards, and each of them takes 180 damage per second. They do not take 1080 damage per second, but 180 damage per second.

Taking 1080 damage per second, when you have only 3K hit points, with a 50% heal penalty, and an immobilize effect is just out of control, and is one of the main reasons why the current meta game is so poor in Cyrodiil. People are just zerging with Standards + Dark Talon + Pulsar + Barrier, and no one has fun any more.

@NordJitsu‌
I agree with you on one point though: CC effects should not have any AoE cap in order to allow a small group of people to deal with a large raid of enemies.

This game currently lacks of anti zerging techniques. For instance, people are not obliged to split when an enemy raid is incoming, and on the contrary they should stay packed as a mean to leverage on the abilities of everyone else in the group.

In short, what I'm talking about is the same design flaw as in GW2: the meta game encourages people to stay close to each other and zerg.

Igolbug

My Siphon Skilline ultimate has always been capped at 6, so frustrating that my only decent aoe ability was useless in comparison so the other classes.

aoe caps are stupid, but at the same time talons damage is pretty *** considering it is a cc ability.

LonePirate

Given this patch's insane buff to mobs of all levels but particularly to VR mobs, the PVE portion of this game is fast becoming unplayable for casual players. If anything, this game is now more geared toward elite and hardcore players as casuals are being run out of town.

Arreyanne

I think the caps are a little slanted at 6, if the engine can handle it, but I also feel the damage should be spread between the number of people you hit with it,

If the tooltip say 800 damage or whatever you hit 20 people it gets divided by 20 then you can stack it all you want

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO

Nijjion wrote: »

Been playing games for 13 years with no AoE caps... been no such thing as QQ about 1 person being able to attack 200 people with 1 skill. Only since GW2 implemented them really.

This.

In countless games you spread out to thin AoE damage putting a cap on it just seems absolutely silly.

Akalukz

without casuals who would all the elite players be killing. It is fairly obvious from past MMO PVP type games that Elite players avoid each other and roflstomp casuals and feel good about themselves

lao

Akalukz wrote: »

without casuals who would all the elite players be killing. It is fairly obvious from past MMO PVP type games that Elite players avoid each other and roflstomp casuals and feel good about themselves

thats absolutely not true at all. well maybe in modern games it is but thats only cos those who claim to be elite are pretenders. ppl who are truely good seek the challenge. there is no satisfaction in killing a bunch of randoms in 10 secs. in daoc we organized fights among the best groups cos it was infinity times more fun fighting an intense 8v8 that could last for 10 mins than wiping a random pug in 15 secs. dont get me wrong ofc we still killed those pugs cos ya know rps are rps but we didnt intentionally look for them and avoided anyone who could offer a fight. infact we did quite the opposite. daoc was superior in absolutely every aspect tho and when agramon came the elite groups all went there and the random pugs/zergs stayed in NF so the good groups fought among each other and the randoms thought among each other. (mostly)

however the games have changed over the years and so did the communities. and definitely not in a good way

Akalukz

Admittedly I did not play DAoC... wish I had. But I have played a few games with strong PVP structures and I for one am glad that ZoS is recognizing the fact that casuals need to be favored. I also agree that a lot of old school pvp players look for the challenge, but with the newer generation it's all about self promotion and ridiculing others. I am a cranking old man it seems

Good PvP players will always find away to be good. Either true skill / grouping / voice coms whatever it takes. But casuals must feel as if they have a chance. Look at WAR. Mythic took forever to address zerg busting AOE brightwizards with a hard mez as well as too long to address empty servers. Zos seems to be addressing both of these issues in their current game now rather than 6 months down the road when everyone has unsubbed. They need to move quickly to keep players. 90 days is what the majority of long term players will give a game.

The intro of the new campaign and the AoE cap are both needed. IF you want to see how this games future will be without those... take a look at www.warhammeronline.com

twistedmonk

I will say that GW2 PvP is a lot more fun than ESO.

Reasons? well...the map is smaller so you fight a lot more often. like I can find a fight in a minute or two of porting into the zone.

They have chevrons for Commanders to lead the fight. makes it easy to see on the map where everybody is.

the Time to Kill is much longer. A good fight can last 15-30 seconds. In ESO, I've literally been killed before I could even hit a hotkey.

the bolster actually works in GW2. In ESO, it's insulting.

lao

Akalukz wrote: »

Admittedly I did not play DAoC... wish I had. But I have played a few games with strong PVP structures and I for one am glad that ZoS is recognizing the fact that casuals need to be favored. I also agree that a lot of old school pvp players look for the challenge, but with the newer generation it's all about self promotion and ridiculing others. I am a cranking old man it seems

Good PvP players will always find away to be good. Either true skill / grouping / voice coms whatever it takes. But casuals must feel as if they have a chance. Look at WAR. Mythic took forever to address zerg busting AOE brightwizards with a hard mez as well as too long to address empty servers. Zos seems to be addressing both of these issues in their current game now rather than 6 months down the road when everyone has unsubbed. They need to move quickly to keep players. 90 days is what the majority of long term players will give a game.

The intro of the new campaign and the AoE cap are both needed. IF you want to see how this games future will be without those... take a look at www.warhammeronline.com

if u favor casuals it will always dumb down the game tho. what they should do instead is bringing pve to a mimimum so even a casual player can get to max level in a reasonable time. which is what eso is doing but appearantly its still too much for some ppl.

casuals have never been favored in the good old games and it worked out fine. maybe ur right and its due to this newer generation beeing mostly morons that came from crap like WoW and are used to beeing served everything on a silver plate.

the aoe cap is a horribly wrong treatment for the right problem tho. warhammer as a game was fine the problem were the zones were literally the worst design ive ever seen for a pvp zone. bottlenecks, cliffs and keeps all over the place. zergbusting was also too easy mainly due to the magus+bw combination. they fixed magus after a while atleast but at that point the dmg had been done already.

firstdecan

Nooblet wrote: »

Should 6 stand a chance against 12? Yes if they're coordinated and generally better players.

Should 6 players stand a chance against 25+? No imo

That said. I don't like the cap especially so low.

I have to disagree with this.

The point of an AoE is to have an Area of Effect. You make the ground around a certain point (whether a fixed point or a PBAoE), dangerous and force the opponent to alter their tactics. It's the only thing that levels the playing field for a smaller group trying to defend against a larger group. No limit AoE is the counterpart to lack of player collision. Right now huge Zergs can just pile on top of each other and mindlessly hit \ spam skills (I've seen DC in game do just this with over a hundred in a zerg, needless to say my team was slaughtered). This is an issue when you're defending a small space, like the tower near a resource, and trying to use your environment to tactical advantage. Having to come through a door should be a choke point, not an opportunity for 40 people to come in at once piled on top of each other, with the defenders having no way to defend.

If AoE is going to be limited, turn on player collision to keep the player "density" in balance with the AoE limits. If player collision is going to remain off, AoE should be unlimited to compensate for the unbalancing effect of unlimited player density. I honestly don't care either way, but limiting AoE without limiting the amount of space players can occupy at once turns the PvP aspect of the game into nothing more than Zerg vs Zerg.

Lowbei

"just say no" to ae caps

Rev780

"give us hard CC"

No, go back to WoW if the only way you can kill someone is CCing them. You really have no idea what you asking for. I have been mezzed (what they called it from DAOC healers etc) and sat there helplessly as you get destroyed. It still was zerg vs zerg in daoc. We had a skald, healer, and dps for our zerg. we would run up on someone who didnt see us coming, heals would aoe mez with no limit and we /assist the main dps and mauled them. No effort, no skill, just became a who could get the mez off in this zerg group before the other person did. Now in a game where anyone can "hide/crouch' you want to have no aoe and hard cc? everyone in this post would be the first to whine and complain about how much that sucks.

Rev780

*Edit: Content removed, flaming quote above*

It has enough cc to where you dont move until your dead. Its just like being mezzed, DR or not.

Akalukz

firstdecan wrote: »

Nooblet wrote: »

Should 6 stand a chance against 12? Yes if they're coordinated and generally better players.
.......

If AoE is going to be limited, turn on player collision to keep the player "density" in balance with the AoE limits. If player collision is going to remain off, AoE should be unlimited to compensate for the unbalancing effect of unlimited player density. I honestly don't care either way, but limiting AoE without limiting the amount of space players can occupy at once turns the PvP aspect of the game into nothing more than Zerg vs Zerg.

Agreed here. Collision is something that should be done IMO. The largest problem with it Collisions detection is the massive amount of client side processing that has to take place to keep everything in check.

Lowbei

lol

down with ae caps!

ZOS_LenaicR

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Lowbei

pay no mind to the rabble! down with ae caps!

Lowbei

the increased guard respawn rate also hurts smallmans. why was this change made?

legiont666ub17_ESO

Down with alot more than just AE caps.

Nivzruo_ESO

The real solution here is WZs & Arena & Dueling. More pvp options because not all of us like zerg v zerg or sit around ganking.

Nooblet

Not gonna lie, since the patch, PvP has been alot better. Granted this was a 2 hour or so timeframe.. but it didn't seem like the typical cluster spam AE junk, and was more extending and picking ppl off. Good players will learn to adapt, instead of complain for things to be changed.. just saying.

ishilb14_ESO

Zenimax doesn't do anything but listen to the bad players. They just want Zerg vs Zerg Alliance Point farming, that's it. I bet none of their devs could even kill a normal guard, they're just zerglings and they want all the good players to conform to that and become zerglings as well and become stupid. Like Zenimax stop trying to appeal to stupid people otherwise you're game is gonna die out in less than a year and everyone is gonna laugh at you and call your devs dumb and you won't be able to sell many of copies of TES VI and then Bethesda is gonna be pissed at you too.

Lowbei

yeah, if they keep this up, then i cant see this game surviving very long.

cyrodiil has dropped to just one campaign and it was all medium pops on a friday night, less than 2 months after launch.

how unfortunate that a game with such potential to fail because the devs tried to please the zerg but ended up screwing themselves.

MMO players want progression, they want to feel like they are getting better at the game or that their character is getting better. Progression is not always achieved thru xp/leveling. A high skill cap is essential for a pvp mmo. Thus every time you dumb down pvp with catering to the zerg mentality, you drop the skill cap another few levels.

But you know the worst part about all this? Its that the zergers dont really want the skill cap dropped, they simply dont know any better. They dont like to admit that they are zergers. They will go to great lengths to avoid the dreaded Z word by using words like raid and warband and whatnot.

...imagine there was no zerg... imagine there was only small groups of 4-8 people, they would be everywhere, the action would seem more frequent, the skill levels would improve, and overall feeling of progression would improve...

xDonMega

It's empty because everyone is doing the new content?

If they wanted casuals only, they wouldn't of put in vet ranks at the start..


@lowbei go set up some fights and stop crying like a ***.

xDonMega

I understand that you are still children to this concept of creating your own action...

But we all have to grow up sometime.

Lowbei

lol we can always bomb zergs, but thats not competition, and all quality pvpers will quit if this nonsense continues.

you must be new to pvp, you should stick to topics you have experience with before looking like an idiot

xDonMega

Your group wants competition? Other groups want competition?

Then set it up..



I've been around PvP long enough to know when someone is scared!