Reaction to the return of forward camps?

WRX · December 2015

tinythinker wrote: »

JamilaRaj wrote: »

Cogo wrote: »

If this horrible thing have to return, at least let it cost some. 20K is way to low. 75K would be better.

100 crowns would be the best.

It should probably be 1000 (or 1500) crowns for a pack of 10.

hammayolettuce · December 2015

I'm glad they're bringing back camps, though I think the res radius could be a little larger as the current size heavily favors defenders.The great thing about camps is that they spread out fights and give an offensive group a (slight) safety net, should they choose to push deep into enemy territory.

My concern is that we don't have the population we did to when camps were first eliminated. I actually think that the proposed "no CP" campaign will help to remedy this. Perhaps make Axe the no-cp server so that people who are new to PvP are more likely to get their feet wet rather than running away from PvP entirely- plus it will make Axe a more active campaign. Then they can move on to the CP campaigns when they are ready for more of a challenge. As it is, we have too many campaigns. I'd rather see an increase in PvPers than removal of more campaigns.

More players + return of forward camps will make PvP a more enjoyable experience for all, imo. @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Manoekin · December 2015

hammayolettuce wrote: »

I'm glad they're bringing back camps, though I think the res radius could be a little larger as the current size heavily favors defenders.The great thing about camps is that they spread out fights and give an offensive group a (slight) safety net, should they choose to push deep into enemy territory.

My concern is that we don't have the population we did to when camps were first eliminated. I actually think that the proposed "no CP" campaign will help to remedy this. Perhaps make Axe the no-cp server so that people who are new to PvP are more likely to get their feet wet rather than running away from PvP entirely- plus it will make Axe a more active campaign. Then they can move on to the CP campaigns when they are ready for more of a challenge. As it is, we have too many campaigns. I'd rather see an increase in PvPers than removal of more campaigns.

More players + return of forward camps will make PvP a more enjoyable experience for all, imo. @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Well said.

Rebeccas04nub18_ESO · December 2015

I had a forward camp a long time ago but could never set it up and I didn't even know what it was for. How did the old ones work? From the red circle it looked like it would be about the size of a large tent. We're the Rez's limited to a certain amount, could you be attacked there? Were there limitations on where it could be set up?
I think I ended up selling mine to a merchant or destroying it since I didn't Pvp at the time and it was taking up inventory space. I wish I had it now.

driosketch · December 2015

Manoekin wrote: »

Only have an issue with #6. With the other changes I don't see why that would still be there, and will only lead to more trolling. They'll be limited enough without that.

Especially when they've been talking about also removing the restriction of characters from more than one faction in the same campaign.

kevlarto_ESO · December 2015

No blood porting I hope, if you can still blood port then I wonder why they were ever taken from the game in the first place, other than that, not moved one way or the other.

tinythinker · December 2015

kevlarto_ESO wrote: »

No blood porting I hope, if you can still blood port then I wonder why they were ever taken from the game in the first place, other than that, not moved one way or the other.

4. Can only rez from inside the radius

tinythinker · December 2015

Rebeccas04nub18_ESO wrote: »

I had a forward camp a long time ago but could never set it up and I didn't even know what it was for. How did the old ones work? From the red circle it looked like it would be about the size of a large tent. We're the Rez's limited to a certain amount, could you be attacked there? Were there limitations on where it could be set up?

They can be set up anyplace with a large enough flat space, like a siege engine, by equipping it from the quickslot. Current functionality = old functionality (the new rules mentioned in the original post don't go into effect until the Thieve's Guild DLC when quartermasters will sell them again). They can handle 40 or so rezzes, decay over time like any siege, and can be repaired with siege repair kits. Anyone in your Alliance in your campaign can rez at one from anywhere in Cyrodiil.

Artis · December 2015

I am glad I won't have to travel as much and can spend more time actually learning how to pvp.
I think the radius should be a little larger though.

hammayolettuce wrote: »

I'm glad they're bringing back camps, though I think the res radius could be a little larger as the current size heavily favors defenders.The great thing about camps is that they spread out fights and give an offensive group a (slight) safety net, should they choose to push deep into enemy territory.

In fact, it's the other way around. Think about it. When the outer wall is still up - camps benefit both defenders and attackers, and defenders can't increase their numbers through camps like they used to (because now they actually have some radius). However when the outer wall is down - camps heavily benefit attackers. Defenders can't put them anywhere at that point so there is no way they can stop attackers as they will keep rezzing and defenders will die one by one.

hammayolettuce · December 2015

Artemis wrote: »

I am glad I won't have to travel as much and can spend more time actually learning how to pvp.
I think the radius should be a little larger though.

hammayolettuce wrote: »

I'm glad they're bringing back camps, though I think the res radius could be a little larger as the current size heavily favors defenders.The great thing about camps is that they spread out fights and give an offensive group a (slight) safety net, should they choose to push deep into enemy territory.

In fact, it's the other way around. Think about it. When the outer wall is still up - camps benefit both defenders and attackers, and defenders can't increase their numbers through camps like they used to (because now they actually have some radius). However when the outer wall is down - camps heavily benefit attackers. Defenders can't put them anywhere at that point so there is no way they can stop attackers as they will keep rezzing and defenders will die one by one.

The logic here is that defenders can place camps *inside* of the keep, unlike attackers. It is more likely for the defenders to die inside of the radius of their camp than attackers, so they will be more likely to be able to *use* their camp.

tinythinker · December 2015

hammayolettuce wrote: »

Artemis wrote: »

I am glad I won't have to travel as much and can spend more time actually learning how to pvp.
I think the radius should be a little larger though.

hammayolettuce wrote: »

I'm glad they're bringing back camps, though I think the res radius could be a little larger as the current size heavily favors defenders.The great thing about camps is that they spread out fights and give an offensive group a (slight) safety net, should they choose to push deep into enemy territory.

In fact, it's the other way around. Think about it. When the outer wall is still up - camps benefit both defenders and attackers, and defenders can't increase their numbers through camps like they used to (because now they actually have some radius). However when the outer wall is down - camps heavily benefit attackers. Defenders can't put them anywhere at that point so there is no way they can stop attackers as they will keep rezzing and defenders will die one by one.

The logic here is that defenders can place camps *inside* of the keep, unlike attackers. It is more likely for the defenders to die inside of the radius of their camp than attackers, so they will be more likely to be able to *use* their camp.

You can only place them in the outer area, i.e. in the courtyard between the inner/outer walls and on top of the corner towers of the outer walls. Not inside the inner walls. Defenders wouldn't need or benefit much from a camp while the outer wall is up, because blood porting is being removed, the radius proposed wouldn't cover the ganking of incoming defenders beyond the outer walls, and an ally can safely rez those few who die from ranged attacks while defending from on top of the outer walls.

However, once the outer wall goes down, the attackers can sweep the courtyard and corner towers and burn any camps. Those defenders that die after the outer wall is down and the courtyard is secured will have no camp inside the keep to rez at, so unless someone riding in to help defend finds a spot to put one up somewhat near the keep, defenders will have to keep riding back from wherever. Given that camps will be changed to only allow 20 rezzes, a good number of defenders will have to ride all the way back even if a spot near the keep is found and used -- does anyone else recall how many people would rez at a camp someone else placed but not repair or replace it?

Farorin · December 2015

I'm looking forward to it, even with restrictions.

Farorin · December 2015

Also, I hope the bring back the mercenaries as well at some point.

tinythinker · December 2015

Farorin wrote: »

Also, I hope the bring back the mercenaries as well at some point.

They weren't around long but they made an impression. I recall someone stacking a ton of them at the front outer gate area to obliterate attackers trying to breach with a ram.

hammayolettuce · December 2015

tinythinker wrote: »

hammayolettuce wrote: »

Artemis wrote: »

I am glad I won't have to travel as much and can spend more time actually learning how to pvp.
I think the radius should be a little larger though.

hammayolettuce wrote: »

I'm glad they're bringing back camps, though I think the res radius could be a little larger as the current size heavily favors defenders.The great thing about camps is that they spread out fights and give an offensive group a (slight) safety net, should they choose to push deep into enemy territory.

In fact, it's the other way around. Think about it. When the outer wall is still up - camps benefit both defenders and attackers, and defenders can't increase their numbers through camps like they used to (because now they actually have some radius). However when the outer wall is down - camps heavily benefit attackers. Defenders can't put them anywhere at that point so there is no way they can stop attackers as they will keep rezzing and defenders will die one by one.

The logic here is that defenders can place camps *inside* of the keep, unlike attackers. It is more likely for the defenders to die inside of the radius of their camp than attackers, so they will be more likely to be able to *use* their camp.

You can only place them in the outer area, i.e. in the courtyard between the inner/outer walls and on top of the corner towers of the outer walls. Not inside the inner walls. Defenders wouldn't need or benefit much from a camp while the outer wall is up, because blood porting is being removed, the radius proposed wouldn't cover the ganking of incoming defenders beyond the outer walls, and an ally can safely rez those few who die from ranged attacks while defending from on top of the outer walls.

However, once the outer wall goes down, the attackers can sweep the courtyard and corner towers and burn any camps. Those defenders that die after the outer wall is down and the courtyard is secured will have no camp inside the keep to rez at, so unless someone riding in to help defend finds a spot to put one up somewhat near the keep, defenders will have to keep riding back from wherever. Given that camps will be changed to only allow 20 rezzes, a good number of defenders will have to ride all the way back even if a spot near the keep is found and used -- does anyone else recall how many people would rez at a camp someone else placed but not repair or replace it?

When I said "inside" the keep, I meant within its outer wall. Not everyone sweeps for a camp either, but from what I remember, you can only place a camp in a keep that belongs to you. It's a lot faster and closer to sneak away and set up a camp if you're defending and a significant number of your group wipes. I remember very well how few people replaced camps. However, with the new changes, it will be fewer pugs res'ing at camps unless they were already near the keep to begin with. Bloodporting via camp is no longer a thing.

dantator · December 2015

Resource Farming here we go! Excited xD

Dreyloch · December 2015

I don't know why they just don't make an ability for templars to mass res within a certain area. Make it disruptable, make it cost ALL their mana to cast.Make it a long channeled cast like 4-6 seconds (a lifetime in PvP). Make it a very high PvP rank skill say like 25? Edit: and let it have a cooldown timer like 15 minutes once successfully cast.

Because if you think about it, your not defending the stupid camp. So to die within it's radius and have a cooldown on it seems kind dumb. It can be seiged down, it can be burnt down, it has no protection for those using it (like a very small immunity timer) so you can just toss some high powered caltrops on it, and kill anyone coming back from a death. Oh yeah, and only 20 uses.

tinythinker · December 2015

Dreyloch wrote: »

I don't know why they just don't make an ability for templars to mass res within a certain area. Make it disruptable, make it cost ALL their mana to cast.Make it a long channeled cast like 4-6 seconds (a lifetime in PvP). Make it a very high PvP rank skill say like 25? Edit: and let it have a cooldown timer like 15 minutes once successfully cast.

Because if you think about it, your not defending the stupid camp. So to die within it's radius and have a cooldown on it seems kind dumb. It can be seiged down, it can be burnt down, it has no protection for those using it (like a very small immunity timer) so you can just toss some high powered caltrops on it, and kill anyone coming back from a death. Oh yeah, and only 20 uses.

They could do that with a morph of Healing Ritual. Wouldn't even need to change the name

(Changes from existing version in blue.)

Ritual of Rebirth (Active Skill)
3234 8064 Magicka | 1.7 4s | 10m radius

Focus your spiritual devotion to resurrect nearby allies.

josh.lackey_ESO · December 2015

On a max horse, sprinting, with rapids and 3 piece cyrodiil's ward riding gear, I can redeploy anywhere on the map pretty quickly with very little risk. Forward camps are interesting, but I think giving horses a battle spirit buff/battle level buff to max stats would make much more of a difference. If you've been playing a while and have a max horse, you know what I mean. But on characters I haven't been playing daily for months, I sometimes wonder the horse riding simulation is even worth it in order to get back to the action.

Rune_Relic · December 2015

1,3,4&6. Stops everyone and there dog just bypassing the supply line and keep chain.
2&5. Stops you spamming the camps.

You cant just die and jump across the map to where the action is...without everyone having loads of camps [oops]
Camps are only local now instead of global.

7. I think would have been a major issue if it was global...but still an issue local.
But as everyone and his dog wont have the option to spawn at your camp (local),
its probably only people in your group likely to be close enough to use the camp....initially.
ie. if you are a strike team.

As the fight progresses though, you'll probably end up with more outsiders attacking the keep and leeching your camp.
If you drop a camp at an existing fight...you can guarantee everyone will be leeching that camp.
BUT...the 2 minute cooldown should (in theory) lower the impact.
Personally....knowing that keep fights can last a long long time;
I have concerns about the 2 minute cool down.

My concerns.

Is that 2 minute cooldown.. camp specific or player specific ?
If its player specific...you cant spawn at ANY camp for 2 minutes.
If its camp specific...you can just get strangers to spawn at the camp..setup another as soon as it exceeds 20 players..rinse repeat..cooldown bypassed.
ie. camp spam can still be used....you just have to work around the restrictions.

Camp cost is not a deterrent as many players have already saved 100s of camps.

Troll camping will still be a thing ..especially with all the obstacles being removed.

Rezzing was redundant with forward camps.
So to me even being able to RESPAWN on death at camps was an enigma I never grasped.
Surely, (with the idea of a forward camp to shift people in as a base of operations),
Camps should have been a single use wayshrine for upto 24 uses (group members) ?
ie. To move bodies across the map quickly (once 1 scout has reached the destination).
This helps with horse simulator, doesnt make rezzing redundant..
but still leaves us with a redundant supply chain unless you limit how far ahead a forward camp can be placed.

My thoughts.

Forward camps for me were supposed to advance the supply chain step by step until each forward camp became a base camp.
Perhaps introducing a forward camp > base camp upgrade process would allow non keep combat as a result.
Something along the lines of needing a forward camp to bring in limited bodies (group only, one shot & no rezz).
Using those players (engineers) to setup local resource nodes and upgrade the forward camp into a base camp (global transitus)
This heavily relies on scouts to not only position camps in the wild..but locate camps for destruction.
This relies on strike teams to eliminate base camps before they get established.
This relies on open warfare if the base camps do get established.

The idea here is to use forward camps & base camps as stepping stones to reduce transit time between keeps.
They must not exist within keeps/resource areas as they act as stepping stones to and from those areas.
This eliminates everyone and their dog just jumping from keep to keep straight into the fight, but eliminates the worse aspects of horse simulator.
This keeps the supply chain and rezzing functional.

TL;DR
Anyway. As long as the camp spamming, zombie squad and rez/supply chain is not an issue. I'm fine.

[EDIT. For clarification. The base camp idea is that for every defensive keep with walls and resource nodes there can be 1 offensive base camp with no walls and resource nodes. These base camps create there own supply chain across the map and that chain can be broken. These base camps are created from upgraded forward camps. Its should take something like 1 hour for a forward camp to upgrade to a base camp once 3 local resource nodes are placed. This give defensive strike teams and scouts time to work. Observation towers should be part of the mix to address the needle in a haystack issue.]

Turelus · December 2015

I fully look forward to writing "REPLACE THE CAMP IF YOU USED IT FFS!!!" in zone chat again.

On a more serious note I think things like this add more random elements and tactics to the game which only means more interesting encounters. Sad to see no group lock (because of the above) however.

Knootewoot · December 2015

What is the use of a camp with such a small radius. You practically must die near the camp to rez.

Alucardo · December 2015

With PVE gear coming to PVP for AP, the ability to res fallen comrades and level 60 riding training, I can't imagine TOO many people would bother buying them for 20k a pop anyway.
Don't think it's going to make much of a difference tbh. I'm probably not going to bother. Would rather save my AP for gear and akaviri motifs.

tinythinker · December 2015

Knootewoot wrote: »

What is the use of a camp with such a small radius. You practically must die near the camp to rez.

When they first took out camps to retool them, I figured they might do something like hike the cost and reduce the number of rezzes but keep bloodporting, or limit rezzes to the radius shown on the map but keep the cost/number of rezzes the same. Was surprised they are doing all of the changes together plus shrinking the radius.

As for the use, a lot of folks seem to look forward to buying them for resource farming.

frozywozy · December 2015

Alucardo wrote: »

With PVE gear coming to PVP for AP, the ability to res fallen comrades and level 60 riding training, I can't imagine TOO many people would bother buying them for 20k a pop anyway.
Don't think it's going to make much of a difference tbh. I'm probably not going to bother. Would rather save my AP for gear and akaviri motifs.

Typical mindset of an AP farmer who play to kill and who doesn't care for objectives. Thanks for being honest, I guess! You must be one of those who sit in stealth with 20 others while one guy is sieging the wall for 30mins.

WRX · December 2015

Alucardo wrote: »

With PVE gear coming to PVP for AP, the ability to res fallen comrades and level 60 riding training, I can't imagine TOO many people would bother buying them for 20k a pop anyway.
Don't think it's going to make much of a difference tbh. I'm probably not going to bother. Would rather save my AP for gear and akaviri motifs.

I disagree, for 20k Id be happy to stay in the fight and keep getting all the nomnom's until every last person is dead.

Difference of opinion there though.

Dreyloch · December 2015

frozywozy wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

With PVE gear coming to PVP for AP, the ability to res fallen comrades and level 60 riding training, I can't imagine TOO many people would bother buying them for 20k a pop anyway.
Don't think it's going to make much of a difference tbh. I'm probably not going to bother. Would rather save my AP for gear and akaviri motifs.

Typical mindset of an AP farmer who play to kill and who doesn't care for objectives. Thanks for being honest, I guess! You must be one of those who sit in stealth with 20 others while one guy is sieging the wall for 30mins.

Yes of course! Because all the AP farmers are union. One guy works, 20 others watch...

More seriously though, I miss AP farming. Had a ton of fun setting up and watching the AP roll in with my guild. If that concerns you, then just don't bother going there and getting killed. Leave the resource be, and 1 of 2 things will happen. The farmers will get bored or eventually try to start sieging the associated keep. All you gotta do is sit inside and wait for them to come in. Your choice!

Docmandu · December 2015

Myself, I prefer the game without Forward Camps. Insta port means no traffic between keeps, meaning for solo/small man, even less chance of finding fights.

Anazasi · December 2015

Camps along with the removal of faction lock outs = STUPIDITY.

Fights will go one for hours. 2 min cool down is a joke. It takes that long for a dead player to realize they are dead with the lag in some cases.

Because we cant fix the group que bug and since everyone under the sun is already playing 2 or 3 different factions on the same campaign we will just fix it so everyone can be on one server. Oh wait AD is loosing they have low pop and EP DC have high pop let me log in on one of my alts so I can be a winner..... WTF Wheeler you on drugs??? Fix the integrity of the campaigns...

Some one get smart and start buying up all the coldfire siege on vendors and start farming it. You can play solo and wipe raids for mega AP.

Seriously anyone have some salt this is just getting moronic.

Jules · December 2015

Agree with Hek and Mano. With these two things working in tandem. If the range is that small (too small), why bother limiting the amount to 10?

The opportunity for troll camping is unreal. As Mano mentioned in the podcast, what's to stop someone from dropping 10 camps in the middle of nowhere on EP. And if no one dies there and they don't degrade over time, that faction is locked out for camps if they lay all 10.

Also on the subject of camps, I think the range makes it way too hard to use them strategically. If the camps are right on top of you, the meat grinder smashing into each other will never stop. Lay burn lay burn lay burn. I doubt with that range 20 people will rarely ever be able to get thru them. I'd much rather see a larger range with same mechanics, but see groups able to hit from different side or use different strats upon re-engage.