Elder Scrolls Online's business model sucks compared to Guild Wars 2 (the competition)

AlexanderDeLarge

So I recently went back to revisit Guild Wars 2 first time since the base game launched and I was blown away by how much ArenaNet delivers. Just to be clear there are other criticisms and comparisons against Elder Scrolls Online when compared to Guild Wars 2, particularly performance and weight of combat but this thread is strictly about the business model.

First and foremost, living story. Path of Fire released September of last year. Every three months, they introduce a living story update which I think the name is a bit misleading because they're basically DLC-sized quarterly updates and as long as you log in and you bought Path of Fire, you get it for free. These updates contain new maps, new cinematic quest lines and even new mechanics. Most recently, the roller beetle (part of a series of the best feeling mounts I've ever seen in an MMO). This means as long as you bought Path of Fire for $30, you get ALL the content until the next expansion comes out 2-3 years later and it also means the expansions are fleshed out more and more. This is something I wish we got out of chapters like Morrowind and Summerset which feel like they're abandoned outside of bug fixes since they're already onto the next thing to sell to us.

Here's the trailer for Guild Wars 2's latest update: https://youtu.be/KTPesFa1xm8

Buy2Play Elder Scrolls Online's base game is behind a paywall. Guild Wars 2's is not and this gets really interesting because as long as you're playing within the three months that the latest living story episode (DLC) released in, you get access to it when you eventually do buy Path of Fire. It's one hell of a free trial and it's a pretty generous system.


Crafting bag. This is the most frustrating to me because I'm a player that has spent hundreds of dollars on the chapters and the DLCs outright and as I buy them, I devalue the ESO+ membership yet I'm expecting to pay the same as everyone else. It's definitely the way it's meant to be played as a crafter and if you don't buy into the membership, the game is incredibly inconvenient to play. Guild Wars 2? Material depositing is a feature straight out of the base game. I have very little reason to pay for ESO+ outside of the crafting bag so I got the chests for my house (11000 crowns) so I could have enough storage to keep one of every material in my crafting bag and have room for storing whatever loot and equipment I don't keep on me. Shouldn't have to do that. More on that later.

Costume dying? Free for everyone.

ESO+ is actively devalued as a player that buys the chapters and DLCs outright. If you're the kind of player I am that has spent hundreds of dollars on content, there's very little reason to pay for ESO+ besides the crafting bag which is ridiculous. Guild Wars 2 has no equivalent and they manage to be as successful as they are without paid quarterly expansions? They're doing something right.

So just to break it down, Guild Wars 2 is releasing an expansion once every two-three years, the content released in the meantime is free and substantial. Updates flesh out existing areas and mechanics, the base game is entirely free and the living story entitlement system accounts for your time playing only the base game in a generous way, the crafting and material gathering experience is optimal by default, outfits and gear is dyeable for everyone, there is no "optional" membership (putting that in quotes because this game is constantly a struggle to play without ESO+ if you're picking materials up, also the ESO+ membership giving double transmutation crystals is BS).

Meanwhile in Elder Scrolls Online I feel like I'm in that scene in Goodfellas but it's Zenimax Online Studios saying **** you, pay me.

As I said, there are other valid criticisms but the business model is particularly egregious. It's not even remotely competitive to their primary competitor and it deserves to be called out. Among friends I've referred to the game over the years, every single one of them has quit. If it wasn't performance or a lack of weight behind combat making them leave, it was the business model.

AlexanderDeLarge

Also please don't throw the no true Scotsman argument my way. We're in this together. I've spent years and hundreds of dollars on the game. I'd just like to see it be competitive with their main competition and I can't imagine why they wouldn't want to considering Guild Wars 2 is by many metrics is a more popular game that many of us play too.

Hammy01

It will never happen but I would LOVE LOVE LOVE it if GW2 would release on console! I never really had the chance to play much GW2 on PC back when I only gamed on PC.

PS. off topic but I often have wonderful dreams of Blizzard releasing classic WoW on consoles .

Arobain

With 6 max level characters ready for raids in gw2 and 8 CP 690 characters here, I have to say that gw2 has go cut a *** load of corners to make the model work, you don't see the shortcuts made unless you played the game a LONG time like I did and observant, trust me gw2 isn't as goody 2 shoes as everyone thinks. ESO is hella more buggy but zeni doesn't cut corners

logarifmik

Comrade, thank you for showing those rotting capitalists how to be more human. Too much developers attention is focused on the Crown store stuff and how to monetize every damn new feature. Recent examples? Sure. The community asked for the outfit system since the launch I guess, and now we have it... with one free outfit slot and 1500 Crowns per additional slots per character, and with the brand-new dyeing cloth gold sink. Just to remind everyone here, people complained a lot regarding the price and regarding deceptive description of the outfit slot in the Crown store. There were also at least two "generous" discounts on the outfit slots. Guess, it's not selling so well, huh? And if this is not an example of greedy marketing and inhuman treatment, I don't know what is.

Anyway, it's very naive to consider such a typical capitalist company (as I see it after 2 years or so) to be fair, but hey, we have at least several examples of clean-living compainies in gamedev, right? It can be hard to realize, but you, dear capitalists, can have your so desired profit and be honest with players at the same time. After all, your team is capable of doing decent narratives, pleasant 3D-models and such. Gamedev is an art at the first place. It'll be a trategy if all of this will be buried because of some bluntly stupid decisions made by yours "income-managers". As one of your NPCs aptly says: "Stop! Before it's too late!"

Davor

Hard to disagree here and I understand both sides of the story. That said, ESO is like Games Workshop, 40K and Fantasy/Age of Sigmar. If people don't know what these are, long story short it's plastic crack. It's little toy soldiers that are expensive. So it's like ESO in that regard. Rules are ok at least, crap at best back in the day. Now it's ok. I still don't play but I still collect, model and paint.

Thing is, ESO just like the cames and company I mentioned are the same. While there are better games out there, better run companies, Zenimax and Games Workshop have us by the Cahunas. It's a time sink and a money sink. So to go else where while I already invested in ESO and see a better game, it's hard for me to go to a better game because of the investment I already have.

I tried Guild Wars 2. It's free and fully playable until level 80. The mount system looks so awesome but sadly you need to be level 80 to start with the mounts. I also tried Star Trek Online PC and Xbox One. Another time and money investment.

So it's hard to do. I might have left ESO BUT Zenimax did give me one thing I NEEDED in order to play any MMO game. Controller support. There is controller support for Star Trek Online and I can even program the controls to what I need. BUT the time sink and money sink I just don't want to do. The game hasn't really grabbed me.

Only thing stopping me from really trying out Guild Wars 2 fully is no controller support. If they did what Star Trek Online did, I would have tired it more. Since I am not a keyboard mouse player I just have stuck with ESO.

That said, Games Workshop knew they had us by the Cahunas. Thing is after 10 or so years of ARROGANCE they have lost lots of money. While still making a few million in profits, sales were not as strong as they should have been. So GW have finally done a 180 I believe 2 years ago and profits have become so much more.

I see Zenimax as the new Games Workshop now. Do little as possible and charge as much as they think they can get away with while their CUSTOMERS FEEL DISRESPECTED. Yes not all customers but some of us do feel it. While we are always free to go else where it's hard to do. Thing is, time eventually people will fade off and go onto other pastures.

Things is, is Zenimax just happy with the few millions they are getting or with more work and effort want even more millions they should be getting?

TL;DR

For some people, ESO is an investment. Time investment. Money investment. So even though there are better games out there, not so easy to give up with what we already have done.

Elsonso

Well, no one ever accused ZOS of being a soft touch on the monetization of ESO. Right?

Lake

Money-loving ZOS would never copy the business model of a "poorly" monetized game like GW2.

This time last year, Guild Wars 2 hit all-time sales lows after endless quarter-to-quarter drops and was even below NCSoft's ancient Lineage I, Lineage II and Blade & Soul.



This year, Q1 2018, thanks to an expansion and monetization tricks like mount loot boxes, GW2 managed to bump up to 3rd place within NCSoft.



If GW2's revenue doesn't stay up, you can bet their consumer-friendly monetization will go out the window - especially considering how simple marketing additions like extra loot boxes helped boost revenue.

Mystrius_Archaion

The reason I'm here over Guild Wars 2.....gamepad support.
I really can't play games without decent gamepad support anymore.

I would leave this game in a heartbeat if there was a game with gamepad support that had as good a world and easily better combat(simpler, less gimmick rock/paper/scissors with more real strategy and positioning).

MisterBigglesworth

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

The reason I'm here over Guild Wars 2.....gamepad support.
I really can't play games without decent gamepad support anymore.

I would leave this game in a heartbeat if there was a game with gamepad support that had as good a world and easily better combat(simpler, less gimmick rock/paper/scissors with more real strategy and positioning).

Not sure how high your standards are, but Xpadder makes games like GW2 and WoW perfectly playable with a controller, as long as you don't mind still using KB&M for everything besides combat. Been playing them for years that way - and ESO too, since 2013 beta - can't even imagine all the experiences I would've missed out on due to my aversion to KB&M for the really long play sessions characteristic of most MMOs. I made an Xpadder profile so I could comfortably tank in Wrath of the Lich King and never looked back.

Darth_Trumpious

Lake wrote: »

Money-loving ZOS would never copy the business model of a "poorly" monetized game like GW2.

This time last year, Guild Wars 2 hit all-time sales lows after endless quarter-to-quarter drops and was even below NCSoft's ancient Lineage I, Lineage II and Blade & Soul.



This year, Q1 2018, thanks to an expansion and monetization tricks like mount loot boxes, GW2 managed to bump up to 3rd place within NCSoft.



If GW2's revenue doesn't stay up, you can bet their consumer-friendly monetization will go out the window - especially considering how simple marketing additions like extra loot boxes helped boost revenue.

Finally some data-supported arguments instead of "your business model sucks/you are dying because I don't like it" posts.

PrinceDamien

Lake wrote: »

Money-loving ZOS would never copy the business model of a "poorly" monetized game like GW2.

This time last year, Guild Wars 2 hit all-time sales lows after endless quarter-to-quarter drops and was even below NCSoft's ancient Lineage I, Lineage II and Blade & Soul.



This year, Q1 2018, thanks to an expansion and monetization tricks like mount loot boxes, GW2 managed to bump up to 3rd place within NCSoft.



If GW2's revenue doesn't stay up, you can bet their consumer-friendly monetization will go out the window - especially considering how simple marketing additions like extra loot boxes helped boost revenue.

Looking at this, I can understand why they went the route and added Mounts.
I remember that they said that GW2 would Never have mounts.

But mounts sell. and with the low numbers I bet they felt desperate and added them.
I wonder what they will add next when the numbers drop again.

Jameliel

One of the most articulate posts ever made on these forums. Absolutely agree with all points.

nickl413

I saw a whole lot of "free free free" and not much explaining how the company plans to bring in a continuous flow of cash to support their game, in your thread that is "strictly about business model"

DaveMoeDee

GW2 isn't competition in the slightest from my perspective. Not sure why I would ever consider playing GW2 when there are far more compelling RPGs out there without all the MMO awkwardness.

But I do find making inventory management unbearable to sell subs quite distasteful.

Arobain

As usual, my actual experience gets ignored because people have a vendetta

AlexanderDeLarge

nickl413 wrote: »

I saw a whole lot of "free free free" and not much explaining how the company plans to bring in a continuous flow of cash to support their game, in your thread that is "strictly about business model"

Are the content releases and the loot boxes/crown store exclusives not enough to make this a success? They're nickeling and diming on everything short of pay2win and the benefit of getting double transmutation shards is toeing a dangerous line already. Do they really need to inconvenience the player so much when it comes to materials found around the world that they sell "convenience features" that are standard among the competition to the point that it's a massive inconvenience to anyone else that doesn't cough up the cash?

When it comes to ESO+ in particular, at the very least they really need to address the fact that their most valuable customers who spend hundreds of dollars to buy the content outright are devaluing their membership every time they spend money on the content releases. Over the last year, I've spent $100+ on crowns, $100 on the Morrowind CE, $90 on the Summerset CE and I'm getting an experience comparable to a MMO with a poorly implemented f2p model. It sucks.

Arobain wrote: »

With 6 max level characters ready for raids in gw2 and 8 CP 690 characters here, I have to say that gw2 has go cut a *** load of corners to make the model work, you don't see the shortcuts made unless you played the game a LONG time like I did and observant, trust me gw2 isn't as goody 2 shoes as everyone thinks. ESO is hella more buggy but zeni doesn't cut corners

What shortcuts are you referring to? I've taken an extensive look at their cash shop and all I see are net positives for Guild Wars 2 players. There are a lot of similar practices since the games themselves are very similar but I could go even further and talk about their implementation of loot boxes which are better too. They don't give duplicates and it costs far less to get the thing you actually want than it does to get the gem extractions out of a set of crown crates.

Audrena

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

Every three months, they introduce a living story update which I think the name is a bit misleading because they're basically DLC-sized quarterly updates and as long as you log in and you bought Path of Fire, you get it for free. These updates contain new maps, new cinematic quest lines and even new mechanics. Most recently, the roller beetle (part of a series of the best feeling mounts I've ever seen in an MMO). This means as long as you bought Path of Fire for $30, you get ALL the content until the next expansion comes out 2-3 years later

And yet for a little while there earlier in the "Living Story" series they had it as a requirement that you log in within a certain time of each chapter being released and you'd get it free, but otherwise you had to pay. I was away for two chapters, and to this day, they're still padlocked, with Anet wanting the equivalent of something like $20 to unlock them.And this was during the expansion that literally cost as much as the base game did, while they gave the base game for free to all newcomers.

As a result of that I just stopped with the "Living Story" and always figured I'd go back to it if they ever came to their senses and unlocked what was free content for almost everyone.

To this day, it's still got the padlock symbol next to it.

Might sound strange, but it really made me feel like I couldn't fully participate in the game's story any more so I jkust stopped playing it (and, as a result, stopped buying stuff from their store).

AlexanderDeLarge

Audrena wrote: »

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

Every three months, they introduce a living story update which I think the name is a bit misleading because they're basically DLC-sized quarterly updates and as long as you log in and you bought Path of Fire, you get it for free. These updates contain new maps, new cinematic quest lines and even new mechanics. Most recently, the roller beetle (part of a series of the best feeling mounts I've ever seen in an MMO). This means as long as you bought Path of Fire for $30, you get ALL the content until the next expansion comes out 2-3 years later

And yet for a little while there earlier in the "Living Story" series they had it as a requirement that you log in within a certain time of each chapter being released and you'd get it free, but otherwise you had to pay. I was away for two chapters, and to this day, they're still padlocked, with Anet wanting the equivalent of something like $20 to unlock them.And this was during the expansion that literally cost as much as the base game did, while they gave the base game for free to all newcomers.

As a result of that I just stopped with the "Living Story" and always figured I'd go back to it if they ever came to their senses and unlocked what was free content for almost everyone.

To this day, it's still got the padlock symbol next to it.

Might sound strange, but it really made me feel like I couldn't fully participate in the game's story any more so I jkust stopped playing it (and, as a result, stopped buying stuff from their store).

Active players got rewarded with DLC-worthy content releases for free as long as they were active. Even players who didn't get the expansions got the living story DLCs unlocked as long as they played within that quarter. The areas introduced in those living story episodes were given to everybody. ESO doesn't let you enter expansion areas unless you have the expansions. Not to mention that you can EASILY purchase those living story episodes with gold to gem conversions which would take a couple weeks of casual play at most. That's a net positive.

I just don't see how you can blast Guild Wars 2 for not giving you the living story episodes for free because you didn't log in even though it gave access to the new areas for free when Elder Scrolls Online is a mandatory purchase/subscription to even enter one of the new areas.

Mystrius_Archaion

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

The reason I'm here over Guild Wars 2.....gamepad support.
I really can't play games without decent gamepad support anymore.

I would leave this game in a heartbeat if there was a game with gamepad support that had as good a world and easily better combat(simpler, less gimmick rock/paper/scissors with more real strategy and positioning).

Not sure how high your standards are, but Xpadder makes games like GW2 and WoW perfectly playable with a controller, as long as you don't mind still using KB&M for everything besides combat. Been playing them for years that way - and ESO too, since 2013 beta - can't even imagine all the experiences I would've missed out on due to my aversion to KB&M for the really long play sessions characteristic of most MMOs. I made an Xpadder profile so I could comfortably tank in Wrath of the Lich King and never looked back.

I can't stand joystick mouse emulation; it just doesn't work right as the analog variability of the stick is lost. I pretty much need it to work for as much as possible too.

Audrena

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

Active players got rewarded with DLC-worthy content releases for free as long as they were active. Even players who didn't get the expansions got the living story DLCs unlocked as long as they played within that quarter.

I just don't see how you can blast Guild Wars 2 for not giving you the living story episodes for free because you didn't log in

They changed the requirements after that first attempt at "monetizing" it, so that now as long as you log in within that Living Story period you get it for free. Back then, though, you had to log in within the WEEK that the chapter was released or you missed out and had to buy "gems" to pay for it. That was HUGELY unpopular and they changed it fast.

But to this day they still want 20 bucks for two middle chapters of a story, and as far as I'm concerned they can naff off. They're missing out on far more of my money by roadblocking me from playing the story.

I'd MUCH rather ESO's format where you can subscribe or not, and effectively choose how you want to play. Yes, the crafting bag is a big advantage, but I guess you can think of it like a QoL feature that costs $15 a month (or less) for what is a pretty unique ability to be bottomless account-wide storage for crafting mats (not even Blizzard can implement that, with all their billions of loot box profits

Arreyanne

wasn't the first expansion for GW2 when you bought it you also had to pay for a copy of the original game? Whether you owned the original game or not IIRC that first expansion was like 59.99?

Just asking nvr bought it and probably nvr will

Acrolas

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

I'm a player that has spent hundreds of dollars on the chapters and the DLCs outright and as I buy them, I devalue the ESO+ membership yet I'm expecting to pay the same as everyone else. It's definitely the way it's meant to be played as a crafter and if you don't buy into the membership, the game is incredibly inconvenient to play.

If you were paying $15 for just the game packs, then yes, devaluation would happen as you purchased more game packs outright. You wouldn't want to pay $15 a month for one dungeon when other people would be paying $15 for every game pack.

But there no subscription devaluing if you feel that the perks you want out of ESO+ meet or exceed the $15 a month cost. Some people are going to value mostly hassle-free inventory a lot more than rented game packs. Some people are going to feel the crowns alone give the subscription enough value.

If you want a prorated subscription, just stop subbing every other month or so. But if you're still subscribing monthly you're just telling us that you are finding enough value in the sub and the business model is working.

That other game is just a verbose distraction from the real issue. You're mad at yourself for not having more restraint in your game spending. This is perhaps something to discuss with a licensed mental health professional, as resentment can lead to more reckless financial decisions in an attempt to 'equalize' the perceived injustice.

Sovjet

Comparing mmo's together is always -1 point....

DanteYoda

While most of what the OP says is accurate two things stick out that were missed..

Guildwars 2 economy sucks bad, the rich are super rich and the rest have nothing..

Guildwars 2 game play is atrocious.. the skills are boring, dungeons were literally removed, the team based stuff is hideously grindy and the expansion HOT was unplayable solo.. actually a lot of post Guildwars 2 release was lackluster content wise and the gear acquisition is on par with Korean grinders..

Outside of that great the cash shop is better yes, but who the hell buys cosmetics when the rest of the game is garbage..

Jumping puzzles became insanely frustrating and PvP is just as bad as here balance wise.. tbh pvp and pve are just as bad in guildwars 2 as ESO balance wise...

Arreyanne wrote: »

wasn't the first expansion for GW2 when you bought it you also had to pay for a copy of the original game? Whether you owned the original game or not IIRC that first expansion was like 59.99?

Just asking nvr bought it and probably nvr will

No when heart of thorns released it got a free copy of Guildwars 2 which literally screwed all the past customers over.. Big uproars were seen.. Nothing changed..

And heart of thorns was unplayable for most customers as the hardcores there got their claws into the game.. It got nerfed but to this day Heart of thorns is a nightmare to play and is not fun at all..

Chicharron

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

So I recently went back to revisit Guild Wars 2 first time since the base game launched and I was blown away by how much ArenaNet delivers. Just to be clear there are other criticisms and comparisons against Elder Scrolls Online when compared to Guild Wars 2, particularly performance and weight of combat but this thread is strictly about the business model.

First and foremost, living story. Path of Fire released September of last year. Every three months, they introduce a living story update which I think the name is a bit misleading because they're basically DLC-sized quarterly updates and as long as you log in and you bought Path of Fire, you get it for free. These updates contain new maps, new cinematic quest lines and even new mechanics. Most recently, the roller beetle (part of a series of the best feeling mounts I've ever seen in an MMO). This means as long as you bought Path of Fire for $30, you get ALL the content until the next expansion comes out 2-3 years later and it also means the expansions are fleshed out more and more. This is something I wish we got out of chapters like Morrowind and Summerset which feel like they're abandoned outside of bug fixes since they're already onto the next thing to sell to us.

Here's the trailer for Guild Wars 2's latest update: https://youtu.be/KTPesFa1xm8

Buy2Play Elder Scrolls Online's base game is behind a paywall. Guild Wars 2's is not and this gets really interesting because as long as you're playing within the three months that the latest living story episode (DLC) released in, you get access to it when you eventually do buy Path of Fire. It's one hell of a free trial and it's a pretty generous system.


Crafting bag. This is the most frustrating to me because I'm a player that has spent hundreds of dollars on the chapters and the DLCs outright and as I buy them, I devalue the ESO+ membership yet I'm expecting to pay the same as everyone else. It's definitely the way it's meant to be played as a crafter and if you don't buy into the membership, the game is incredibly inconvenient to play. Guild Wars 2? Material depositing is a feature straight out of the base game. I have very little reason to pay for ESO+ outside of the crafting bag so I got the chests for my house (11000 crowns) so I could have enough storage to keep one of every material in my crafting bag and have room for storing whatever loot and equipment I don't keep on me. Shouldn't have to do that. More on that later.

Costume dying? Free for everyone.

ESO+ is actively devalued as a player that buys the chapters and DLCs outright. If you're the kind of player I am that has spent hundreds of dollars on content, there's very little reason to pay for ESO+ besides the crafting bag which is ridiculous. Guild Wars 2 has no equivalent and they manage to be as successful as they are without paid quarterly expansions? They're doing something right.

So just to break it down, Guild Wars 2 is releasing an expansion once every two-three years, the content released in the meantime is free and substantial. Updates flesh out existing areas and mechanics, the base game is entirely free and the living story entitlement system accounts for your time playing only the base game in a generous way, the crafting and material gathering experience is optimal by default, outfits and gear is dyeable for everyone, there is no "optional" membership (putting that in quotes because this game is constantly a struggle to play without ESO+ if you're picking materials up, also the ESO+ membership giving double transmutation crystals is BS).

Meanwhile in Elder Scrolls Online I feel like I'm in that scene in Goodfellas but it's Zenimax Online Studios saying "F**k you, pay me".

As I said, there are other valid criticisms but the business model is particularly egregious. It's not even remotely competitive to their primary competitor and it deserves to be called out. Among friends I've referred to the game over the years, every single one of them has quit. If it wasn't performance or a lack of weight behind combat making them leave, it was the business model.

you post this in the guild wars forum too?

Arobain

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

nickl413 wrote: »

I saw a whole lot of "free free free" and not much explaining how the company plans to bring in a continuous flow of cash to support their game, in your thread that is "strictly about business model"

Are the content releases and the loot boxes/crown store exclusives not enough to make this a success? They're nickeling and diming on everything short of pay2win and the benefit of getting double transmutation shards is toeing a dangerous line already. Do they really need to inconvenience the player so much when it comes to materials found around the world that they sell "convenience features" that are standard among the competition to the point that it's a massive inconvenience to anyone else that doesn't cough up the cash?

When it comes to ESO+ in particular, at the very least they really need to address the fact that their most valuable customers who spend hundreds of dollars to buy the content outright are devaluing their membership every time they spend money on the content releases. Over the last year, I've spent $100+ on crowns, $100 on the Morrowind CE, $90 on the Summerset CE and I'm getting an experience comparable to a MMO with a poorly implemented f2p model. It sucks.

Arobain wrote: »

With 6 max level characters ready for raids in gw2 and 8 CP 690 characters here, I have to say that gw2 has go cut a *** load of corners to make the model work, you don't see the shortcuts made unless you played the game a LONG time like I did and observant, trust me gw2 isn't as goody 2 shoes as everyone thinks. ESO is hella more buggy but zeni doesn't cut corners

What shortcuts are you referring to? I've taken an extensive look at their cash shop and all I see are net positives for Guild Wars 2 players. There are a lot of similar practices since the games themselves are very similar but I could go even further and talk about their implementation of loot boxes which are better too. They don't give duplicates and it costs far less to get the thing you actually want than it does to get the gem extractions out of a set of crown crates.

the vast majority of all cosmetics for the non humanoid races are simply not there, they are ported from the humanoid races, and simply given the " that'll do " idea, siege in gw2 is handled by an action bar, not something dedicated, there are VERY few unique animations that only npcs have, as well as animation for npcs being generally poor anyways, any humanoid non player avatar no matter the size or any thing else, has the same animation moveset as the humanoid playable character, making for some awkward encounters especially if the humanoid enemy or ally is much larger than the regular avatar, there are alot of reused textures, nearly nonexistant housing. voice acting is also very limited as well, also the armor system in gw2 is much more basic, there are no unique proc sets and there arent very many options to begin with, with the gear, the only system that gw2 has, that is more complex than eso in any way, is the combat, and by damn is the combat good in gw2. you could say the cosmetic system is good, but thats only true if you play a humanoid race, charr and asura get the *** shaft

ESO costs ALOT of *** more money to maintain compared to GW2, and even though GW2 costs alot less to maintain, the still have to cut alot of corners to make *** work, look at the first expansion, it was recieved pretty poorly by the fans, me included

Arobain

Arobain wrote: »

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

nickl413 wrote: »

I saw a whole lot of "free free free" and not much explaining how the company plans to bring in a continuous flow of cash to support their game, in your thread that is "strictly about business model"

Are the content releases and the loot boxes/crown store exclusives not enough to make this a success? They're nickeling and diming on everything short of pay2win and the benefit of getting double transmutation shards is toeing a dangerous line already. Do they really need to inconvenience the player so much when it comes to materials found around the world that they sell "convenience features" that are standard among the competition to the point that it's a massive inconvenience to anyone else that doesn't cough up the cash?

When it comes to ESO+ in particular, at the very least they really need to address the fact that their most valuable customers who spend hundreds of dollars to buy the content outright are devaluing their membership every time they spend money on the content releases. Over the last year, I've spent $100+ on crowns, $100 on the Morrowind CE, $90 on the Summerset CE and I'm getting an experience comparable to a MMO with a poorly implemented f2p model. It sucks.

Arobain wrote: »

With 6 max level characters ready for raids in gw2 and 8 CP 690 characters here, I have to say that gw2 has go cut a *** load of corners to make the model work, you don't see the shortcuts made unless you played the game a LONG time like I did and observant, trust me gw2 isn't as goody 2 shoes as everyone thinks. ESO is hella more buggy but zeni doesn't cut corners

What shortcuts are you referring to? I've taken an extensive look at their cash shop and all I see are net positives for Guild Wars 2 players. There are a lot of similar practices since the games themselves are very similar but I could go even further and talk about their implementation of loot boxes which are better too. They don't give duplicates and it costs far less to get the thing you actually want than it does to get the gem extractions out of a set of crown crates.

the vast majority of all cosmetics for the non humanoid races are simply not there, they are ported from the humanoid races, and simply given the " that'll do " idea, siege in gw2 is handled by an action bar, not something dedicated, there are VERY few unique animations that only npcs have, as well as animation for npcs being generally poor anyways, any humanoid non player avatar no matter the size or any thing else, has the same animation moveset as the humanoid playable character, making for some awkward encounters especially if the humanoid enemy or ally is much larger than the regular avatar, there are alot of reused textures, nearly nonexistant housing. voice acting is also very limited as well, also the armor system in gw2 is much more basic, there are no unique proc sets and there arent very many options to begin with, with the gear, the only system that gw2 has, that is more complex than eso in any way, is the combat, and by damn is the combat good in gw2. you could say the cosmetic system is good, but thats only true if you play a humanoid race, charr and asura get the *** shaft

ESO costs ALOT of *** more money to maintain compared to GW2, and even though GW2 costs alot less to maintain, the still have to cut alot of corners to make *** work, look at the first expansion, it was recieved pretty poorly by the fans, me included

i can go on if you need me to, i love GW2 and i love ESO, each have strengths and weaknesses, but overall, ESO has more strengths, and ESO simply continues to improve constantly with each update adding new gear sets, new dungeons, new content, and new ***, while GW2 doesnt

Agalloch

GW2 has gem to gold conversion too.

Also it has a better achievement reward system : https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Achievement_rewards

I 'd like to see in ESO an improved player guild system like in GW2 with guild upgrades , guild missions, guild enhancements and guild levels.

Sigtric

Lol in what world is GW2 any meaningful competition? To anyone? Have you seen their revenue figures?

Bhaal5

If guild wars 2 released on console, id leave eso in a heartbeat.
For the sole reason of..... WvW
Theirs just works, more engaging more competitive and not to mention a hell of a lot more stable.

Arobain wrote: »

Arobain wrote: »

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

nickl413 wrote: »

I saw a whole lot of "free free free" and not much explaining how the company plans to bring in a continuous flow of cash to support their game, in your thread that is "strictly about business model"

Are the content releases and the loot boxes/crown store exclusives not enough to make this a success? They're nickeling and diming on everything short of pay2win and the benefit of getting double transmutation shards is toeing a dangerous line already. Do they really need to inconvenience the player so much when it comes to materials found around the world that they sell "convenience features" that are standard among the competition to the point that it's a massive inconvenience to anyone else that doesn't cough up the cash?

When it comes to ESO+ in particular, at the very least they really need to address the fact that their most valuable customers who spend hundreds of dollars to buy the content outright are devaluing their membership every time they spend money on the content releases. Over the last year, I've spent $100+ on crowns, $100 on the Morrowind CE, $90 on the Summerset CE and I'm getting an experience comparable to a MMO with a poorly implemented f2p model. It sucks.

Arobain wrote: »

With 6 max level characters ready for raids in gw2 and 8 CP 690 characters here, I have to say that gw2 has go cut a *** load of corners to make the model work, you don't see the shortcuts made unless you played the game a LONG time like I did and observant, trust me gw2 isn't as goody 2 shoes as everyone thinks. ESO is hella more buggy but zeni doesn't cut corners

What shortcuts are you referring to? I've taken an extensive look at their cash shop and all I see are net positives for Guild Wars 2 players. There are a lot of similar practices since the games themselves are very similar but I could go even further and talk about their implementation of loot boxes which are better too. They don't give duplicates and it costs far less to get the thing you actually want than it does to get the gem extractions out of a set of crown crates.

the vast majority of all cosmetics for the non humanoid races are simply not there, they are ported from the humanoid races, and simply given the " that'll do " idea, siege in gw2 is handled by an action bar, not something dedicated, there are VERY few unique animations that only npcs have, as well as animation for npcs being generally poor anyways, any humanoid non player avatar no matter the size or any thing else, has the same animation moveset as the humanoid playable character, making for some awkward encounters especially if the humanoid enemy or ally is much larger than the regular avatar, there are alot of reused textures, nearly nonexistant housing. voice acting is also very limited as well, also the armor system in gw2 is much more basic, there are no unique proc sets and there arent very many options to begin with, with the gear, the only system that gw2 has, that is more complex than eso in any way, is the combat, and by damn is the combat good in gw2. you could say the cosmetic system is good, but thats only true if you play a humanoid race, charr and asura get the *** shaft

ESO costs ALOT of *** more money to maintain compared to GW2, and even though GW2 costs alot less to maintain, the still have to cut alot of corners to make *** work, look at the first expansion, it was recieved pretty poorly by the fans, me included

i can go on if you need me to, i love GW2 and i love ESO, each have strengths and weaknesses, but overall, ESO has more strengths, and ESO simply continues to improve constantly with each update adding new gear sets, new dungeons, new content, and new ***, while GW2 doesnt

I think you and i play different versions of eso. Every update eso breaks more and more.
Every dlc is the same old two dungeons with nothing new
Chapters? Summerset was just a reskin with nothing actually new apart from jewelry crafting, which gw2 had since launch.
You could go say nothings new in gw2 because they didnt have to "add" it in behind a paywall.
Then you have actual guild halls
Stable trials
Wheres the guild missions?
The fractals style content?
Where the completed ui systems, an simple user friendly trading system?

Honestly i think you got the wrong way around patch after patch eso has nothing new to offer, just another server break or a proc set