Burning embers 100k heal.....GJ "balancing"

WillhelmBlack

Ishammael wrote: »

Bodycounter wrote: »

Permablocking is pretty much a problem on it's own, that Zenixmax hasn't touched for how long now? Since release? I wouldn't nerf abilities, because basic game mechanics are still lackluster.

Perma-Blocking hasn't been a problem in a long, long time.

Perma-blocking has never been a problem IMO

Ishammael

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Bodycounter wrote: »

Permablocking is pretty much a problem on it's own, that Zenixmax hasn't touched for how long now? Since release? I wouldn't nerf abilities, because basic game mechanics are still lackluster.

Perma-Blocking hasn't been a problem in a long, long time.

Perma-blocking has never been a problem IMO

Mostly agreed. I would entertain a "perma-blocking is a problem" argument during the pre 1.6 days. But it really wasn't that big of a deal back then anyway -- players hadn't really figured out how to beat it and how vulnerable it made you.

Wollust

I reported on the PTS 30k heals from burning embers. In Cyrodiil. Why do we even bother testing stuff if they don't care at all?

cote-bmsb16_ESO

I *** hate Worbel.

AddictionX

wow the healing is so high...

Glory

Can someone please explain to me why this is considered OP compared to other skills?

Here is my logic, please (politely) explain to me how these do not seem similar:

1. Alcast recorded an ~100k heal from Burning Embers in PvE after surely the full 8.5 second duration expired. This means that after waiting 8.5 seconds you received overall ~100k healing, thus HPS=~11,764. Compare this to Breath of Life, which heals instantly and can easily heal for more than 20k each cast (I have heard up to 29k critical, but we'll stick with 20k to be conservative) on one target alone (not even counting the extra ally heal). This means that you can use just BoL once a second (easy) and receive constant 20k heals. Over an 8.5 second interval this averages HPS=18,823.
2. You might point out that you have to cast 8 BoL's over 8 seconds to get more HPS than one skill. To which I respond, would you rather have consistent 20k heals or one burst 100k heal after waiting 8.5 seconds for it? If you're consistently taking 15,000 damage/second, you'll be dead before your 100k heal hits or you'll be constantly topped off by BoL.
3. To further elaborate on point 2: why does it matter if it heals for 100k since it's so clearly over the top? In reality most players run <35k health, so you are truly only "healing" for a maximum of 35k. Besides it being a "your DK solo heal is better than my group templar heal" competition, I see it just being a full heal after 8.5s.
4. It has lower utility. It's a personal heal, so compared to other group heals it should be stronger (definitely my opinion but I think that's a reasonable argument.

I would love to hear positive counter arguments to show me what I'm missing seeing!

Waffennacht

It's a 100k heal... it's a freaking 100k heal!

Power level 9000!!!

AfkNinja

ebethke_ESO wrote: »

Can someone please explain to me why this is considered OP compared to other skills?

Here is my logic, please (politely) explain to me how these do not seem similar:

1. Alcast recorded an ~100k heal from Burning Embers in PvE after surely the full 8.5 second duration expired. This means that after waiting 8.5 seconds you received overall ~100k healing, thus HPS=~11,764. Compare this to Breath of Life, which heals instantly and can easily heal for more than 20k each cast (I have heard up to 29k critical, but we'll stick with 20k to be conservative) on one target alone (not even counting the extra ally heal). This means that you can use just BoL once a second (easy) and receive constant 20k heals. Over an 8.5 second interval this averages HPS=18,823.
2. You might point out that you have to cast 8 BoL's over 8 seconds to get more HPS than one skill. To which I respond, would you rather have consistent 20k heals or one burst 100k heal after waiting 8.5 seconds for it? If you're consistently taking 15,000 damage/second, you'll be dead before your 100k heal hits or you'll be constantly topped off by BoL.
3. To further elaborate on point 2: why does it matter if it heals for 100k since it's so clearly over the top? In reality most players run <35k health, so you are truly only "healing" for a maximum of 35k. Besides it being a "your DK solo heal is better than my group templar heal" competition, I see it just being a full heal after 8.5s.
4. It has lower utility. It's a personal heal, so compared to other group heals it should be stronger (definitely my opinion but I think that's a reasonable argument.

I would love to hear positive counter arguments to show me what I'm missing seeing!

You can pop the heal for Burning Embers any time you want by just reapplying it. It's cheap, it does good dmg and it heals a ridiculous amount. How can you NOT see this is broken? This isn't even looking at all the OTHER healing you can get as a DK now also. With this in effect DK is a better self healer than Templar is which was never supposed to be their "forte".

Glory

AfkNinja wrote: »

ebethke_ESO wrote: »

Can someone please explain to me why this is considered OP compared to other skills?

Here is my logic, please (politely) explain to me how these do not seem similar:

1. Alcast recorded an ~100k heal from Burning Embers in PvE after surely the full 8.5 second duration expired. This means that after waiting 8.5 seconds you received overall ~100k healing, thus HPS=~11,764. Compare this to Breath of Life, which heals instantly and can easily heal for more than 20k each cast (I have heard up to 29k critical, but we'll stick with 20k to be conservative) on one target alone (not even counting the extra ally heal). This means that you can use just BoL once a second (easy) and receive constant 20k heals. Over an 8.5 second interval this averages HPS=18,823.
2. You might point out that you have to cast 8 BoL's over 8 seconds to get more HPS than one skill. To which I respond, would you rather have consistent 20k heals or one burst 100k heal after waiting 8.5 seconds for it? If you're consistently taking 15,000 damage/second, you'll be dead before your 100k heal hits or you'll be constantly topped off by BoL.
3. To further elaborate on point 2: why does it matter if it heals for 100k since it's so clearly over the top? In reality most players run <35k health, so you are truly only "healing" for a maximum of 35k. Besides it being a "your DK solo heal is better than my group templar heal" competition, I see it just being a full heal after 8.5s.
4. It has lower utility. It's a personal heal, so compared to other group heals it should be stronger (definitely my opinion but I think that's a reasonable argument.

I would love to hear positive counter arguments to show me what I'm missing seeing!

You can pop the heal for Burning Embers any time you want by just reapplying it. It's cheap, it does good dmg and it heals a ridiculous amount. How can you NOT see this is broken?

If you refresh it (which you have to micromanage by refreshing it on the enemy you cast it on), it only heals for a portion. To get a heal similar to BoL you have to wait at least a few seconds and then reapply. Seems more difficult than pressing one button for an instant heal. Refreshing it instantly gives a heal less than the HoT of a skill like Vigor.


Regarding

AfkNinja wrote: »

With this in effect DK is a better self healer than Templar is which was never supposed to be their "forte".

DK's have always been self-heal oriented as their "forte," while group healing lackluster... Before Green Dragon Blood was nerfed into oblivion it was the best self-heal in the game.

AfkNinja

/sigh

you said:
"Alcast recorded an ~100k heal from Burning Embers in PvE after surely the full 8.5 second duration expired. This means that after waiting 8.5 seconds you received overall ~100k healing, thus HPS=~11,764."

11,764 health per second, if you wait two seconds it's practically a full hp heal that can be applied to multiple enemies. In pvp this would be ~5882, almost 6k HP a second once again that can be applied to multiple people. A DK healing 6K+ hp a second is going to be nigh unkillable. All this WHILE DEALING DAMAGE. For a Templar to heal that much they do no dmg.

DK are mitigation experts, you really don't see an issue with an ability that can be stacked on multiple people for 6k+ hp a second? Even if they only wait 2 seconds to pop it that's a 12k hp heal. A Mitigation DK could stand there and block and watch you burn to death before you'd ever move his HP. But that's totally fine with you of course cause you main a DK. Be objective please, this is unbalanced. Not asking them to nerf it hard, but as is that's way too powerful.

Glory

AfkNinja wrote: »

/sigh

you said:
"Alcast recorded an ~100k heal from Burning Embers in PvE after surely the full 8.5 second duration expired. This means that after waiting 8.5 seconds you received overall ~100k healing, thus HPS=~11,764."

11,764 health per second, if you wait two seconds it's practically a full hp heal that can be applied to multiple enemies. In pvp this would be ~5882, almost 6k HP a second once again that can be applied to multiple people. A DK healing 6K+ hp a second is going to be nigh unkillable. All this WHILE DEALING DAMAGE. For a Templar to heal that much they do no dmg.

DK are mitigation experts, you really don't see an issue with an ability that can be stacked on multiple people for 6k+ hp a second? Even if they only wait 2 seconds to pop it that's a 12k hp heal. A Mitigation DK could stand there and block and watch you burn to death before you'd ever move his HP. But that's totally fine with you of course cause you main a DK. Be objective please, this is unbalanced. Not asking them to nerf it hard, but as is that's way too powerful.

I guess my major complaint with this thread is that there is no constructive feedback whatsoever on this post, just complaints about a skill that is actually good now. It may be more powerful than it should be (from my mindset no, from yours yes).

I guess from actually playing DK as well as other classes (most recently mTemplar and sNightblade), I find it much more difficult to keep track of refreshing Burning Embers than to click vigor and rally once or drop a purify and press BoL once. In an attempt to be objective, should I request that instant 15K+ BoL and instant 15K+ Hardened Ward be nerfed as well? What is the standard Embers should match?

AfkNinja

You just need to take DK's full mitigation and kit into account and recognize this would make most DK unstoppable. 6k hps per person is just way too high. It was much too weak before, too strong now, I am sure they will find an acceptable balance.

Darnathian

AfkNinja wrote: »

You just need to take DK's full mitigation and kit into account and recognize this would make most DK unstoppable. 6k hps per person is just way too high. It was much too weak before, too strong now, I am sure they will find an acceptable balance.

You know not what you speak. Leave this thread. Nonsense like you are spewing is what killed this class.

Kattemynte

I wonder why no one is talking about the Inhale (and morphs) heal and damage too. It does X damage and heals the caster for 100% of the damage, then deals Y damage after 2.5s. On the PTS you could just spam this as well in large groups (i.e. PvP) and keep doing massive damage (I saw 10k hits on other players AoE) while effectively keeping yourself alive as well.

Glory

dtsv217_ESO wrote: »

I wonder why no one is talking about the Inhale (and morphs) heal and damage too. It does X damage and heals the caster for 100% of the damage, then deals Y damage after 2.5s. On the PTS you could just spam this as well in large groups (i.e. PvP) and keep doing massive damage (I saw 10k hits on other players AoE) while effectively keeping yourself alive as well.

http://www.esohead.com/skills/36891-sap-essence

Didgerion

Alcast wrote: »

Check out the MAX hit


and this is not even the max...could get a lot higher...
Mending is missing, Cprayer is missing.....etc

Kids, don't play with the daddy's Amulet of Kings!

Rjizzle09

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Jennifur_Vultee wrote: »

Bfish22090 wrote: »

NERF dks

Nerf Eric Wrobel.

He's absolutely the most frustrating part of playing ESO since he has no clear vision of ESO combat and just seems to randomly change things on a whim. Its like having a 5 year old as lead combat designer.

I don't think it is healthy to disparage him. The reality is he might have too many responsibilities placed on his shoulders (or his team's shoulders). Maybe they need to make room in their employment to help his team out? We don't know. I don't think it is a good idea to trash @Wrobel when really have no bearing on what is going on in their office. He might be at this very moment fighting for many of the things the players want, and simply not have the team to back it up. Maybe its just an issue of time. There's a big difference between having a vision and being able to make that vision real in a short period of time.

Please don't blow up in my face either about this. I've got my own list of complaints as well. I'm not happy with a number of things not operating well/correctly on Templars. I still think the game would be better served by having diminishing returns. I don't think it is healthy for the game to cap mitigation while simultaneously making the sky the limit on Damage. I think there are many problems with the way CC works in the game. I could go on. Even so, I don't think it is reasonable to call for the man's execution/firing/whatever. It is much better to state what you have problems with. Scapegoating a developer is not fair. I realize the 'House/Home' statements going on are harmful to his image right now, but please realize that he was just stating the vision for the class there. The class clearly doesn't meet that vision (in fact it sounds a lot more like DK), but maybe he has something in mind to fill those gaps in. I personally feel the important thing about Templar threads lately is that it might just be clearer to him and the other developers just how irritated we are becoming.

you might be right, but somebody has to take responsibility. And as it stands he is RESPONSIBLE for class balance.

I think it would be fairer to put all their feet to the fire. Wrobel is just the guy they chuck on those weekly videos. I'm glad they do it, but I promise you he isn't the only person calling the shots. That's all I'm saying. You should be calling out all the devs ultimately. Get Matt Firor involved for instance.

Ye Matt Frior is the Chief, so he is most definitely responsible...and we all know he has no clue since the interview he did was just horrible...

Even then we have to realize that these are video game designers, and not tv show personalities. While I do think Todd Howard is an awesome PR man for Fallout/TES games it is hard to expect everyone to be as good as him at that. Honestly, I really wish they would get Todd Howard involved somehow, because that guy is awesome at the video game business. I look at Todd Howard as the Steve Jobs of videogaming, at least he seems like it in many ways. The guy drives a solid vision and does a great job building his crew and creating good press for his product. I normally couldn't care less about who a developer is but Todd Howard is one of the few that really stands out to me. The point here is that for the most part the gaming industry doesn't seem to have very many Todd Howards. Its hard to do public speaking and even harder to do it potentially in front of tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands, echoing in eternity on the interwebs. I've done a decent amount of public speaking myself and usually I do fine (its easier in smaller business meeting groups for me). I found myself having a very hard time speaking my father's eulogy though, in large part because of the emotion bound up in it. You can't necessarily expect people to be at their top form all the time.

This is why I marvel at the fact that they even do a video show like they do. It takes brass to do that, and its one thing I appreciate about these guys. I'm pretty sure the developers still want to push the wonder of the game, that 'sizzle' we can still smell from two years ago. The reality is they're just human beings and mabye their crew isn't quite big enough to handle the task at hand as fast as the populace wants. This will hurt their subscriber base if that is the case. The console port also slowed us down a lot. I'm still hopeful despite all my misgivings (and Alcast I'm positive you know I have misgivings on things because we've communicated in multiple threads). My personal feeling is this: Orsinium was awesome. What little I have seen of Abah's Landing/Thieves Guild looks fantastic, and finally starts to round out the Justice/Legerdemain system we saw introduced. Combat Balance is still in a heap, but maybe, just maybe they'll fix it. The content they are putting out is really cool. Imperial City was great as well though I really wish they would have implemented the control system they talked about initially. The thing is, they might just do that @Alcast , considering the way they've slowly unrolled Justice System.

I say all this even while you probably have seen me blowing up on some Templar threads, including the Official Feedback Thread (Templar). I always try to keep in check though to a point. There's a balance between rhetoric/emotion and loss of reason. If we cross the line we risk the developers discounting us as crazy. There needs to be balance. I actually think that the Developers heard us (Templars) in that last thread, even if they were pretty quiet about it, and if that is the case it was a good thing.

I'm sorry but it's just Un acceptable how he does things. No we don't know everything that's going on bit at the same time there are things about combat that have been broken since LAUNCH. There is absolutely no reason that should be possible because by now they should know what they're doing. Maybe we shouldn't trash him but I mean we've tried talking nice and that gets us nowhere they read our commercial ts and just do the opposite. I'm sorry but I can't defend someone who does the same thing over and over. Also hi IS RESPONSIBLE no matter who else is doing what all the ideas go by him anyways and he also said he talks with them about their ideas. Since he is the lead designer then it's his fault if something goes bad whether he agreed with it or not he let that idea make it to the boss so he assumes FULL responsibility. If I have a team of cooks making a dish and one bad cook decides to screw it up but then I serve the dish anyway that is MY fault even though I didn't make the dish but because I delivered it to that said customer the responsibility for the bad product is mine alone not the cooks. Same applies to eric. Whatever makes it into live as far as combat goes is on him not even Matt firor cause well he has no clue about the state of this game as seen in his last interview. I'm not bashing any of them but it's time they see their mistakes and correct them. This game is just one big bug fest now from all the pc gamers comments about thieves guild. If this team can't fix this game then it's time to hire a new one. Final Fantasy went through this as well. It was crap the first time it came out BUT they got rid of that team cause they had no clue what they were doing. The game instantly got 500% better after the new people came in. So if they can't fox it then maybe it's time to give it to someone else . This is all my opinion but I don't think I'm too far from the truth

Bashev

AfkNinja wrote: »

You just need to take DK's full mitigation and kit into account and recognize this would make most DK unstoppable. 6k hps per person is just way too high. It was much too weak before, too strong now, I am sure they will find an acceptable balance.

@AfkNinja
Can you give me an example of a full mitigation DK? And then with this build of full mitigation you can try burning embers and tell us what was the heal value?

Kaliki

Bashev wrote: »

@AfkNinja
Can you give me an example of a full mitigation DK? And then with this build of full mitigation you can try burning embers and tell us what was the heal value?

I do not think he was talking about a full mitigation DK but about the extensive mitigation toolkit of a DK, which now includes a very good self heal.

There is:
- Standard (for the 17s/30 % damage reduction)
- Spiked armor
- Talons (as in a powerful aoe root helps keep melee at bay)
- Dragon blood
- Reflective scales
- Obsidian shield
- Magma armor

From a Templar standpoint these are already amazing (Templars have no aoe CC, no reliable reflect, no class shield, a significantly weaker ulti for defense, etc), but DKs even have some nice defensive passives to go with that.
Templars have some raw damage though.

Did Wrobel confuse Templars and DKs when talking about houses?
Templars are ESO's straw hut but have lots of lighters to play with.

Bashev

Kaliki wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

@AfkNinja
Can you give me an example of a full mitigation DK? And then with this build of full mitigation you can try burning embers and tell us what was the heal value?

I do not think he was talking about a full mitigation DK but about the extensive mitigation toolkit of a DK, which now includes a very good self heal.

There is:
- Standard (for the 17s/30 % damage reduction)
- Spiked armor
- Talons (as in a powerful aoe root helps keep melee at bay)
- Dragon blood
- Reflective scales
- Obsidian shield
- Magma armor

From a Templar standpoint these are already amazing (Templars have no aoe CC, no reliable reflect, no class shield, a significantly weaker ulti for defense, etc), but DKs even have some nice defensive passives to go with that.
Templars have some raw damage though.

Did Wrobel confuse Templars and DKs when talking about houses?
Templars are ESO's straw hut but have lots of lighters to play with.

From the listed skills there are 2 ultimates one of them very very expensive, one skill that increase armor and sprell ress and every class can do that, obsidian shield which scales with health (same as blazing shiled - but you said that templars do not have a class shield), dragon blood which is, how can I say -- super over nerfed skill in PvP even if you have 40k health and 100 CP in increase healing. At the end what we have is reflective scales and talons. Both skills were nerfed in the past.
Now can you tell me which are the so called awesome passives that DKs have? Helping hands is almost useless for magicka build, Battle roar was nerfed for magicka builds and so on.

actosh

*** mitigation in this game, since there is no *** counter for armor/spellpen, and even crit cant be negated fully, so stop that mitigation crap ffs......

Ryuho

To ppls Qq about embers, try to stack this skill to lets say 4 ppls in 1 vs 4 situation.. In 90% scenarious u will die b4 applying ur OP ember heal.. They took mDKs dragon blood, so at least embers + lash help a bit with healing.. Nothing wrong with it.. If they mess with embers they will hit mDks again, its like buffing and then nerfring.. So pls stop this bs..

RinaldoGandolphi

This is a case where....i think its fine.

You have to look at the Magicka Dragonknight from all angles. The class is:

1. DOT based
2. Has no burst or execute (Magicka DK)
3. it has no escape or re-positioning skills at all (No Cloak, Bolt Escape, Boundless Storm, Double Take, etc)
4. The majority of its Tankiness went down the drain with the stam regen nerf.

This skill is giving them back "a little bit" of what the DK is supposed to do well which is absorb damage. Its a DOT, its not bursty. DK need something.

The DK is supposed to be able to hold his ground 1v1, thats what the class was designed for. It was never designed to run or escape. (Like Sorcs or Nightblades) If a Magicka DK can hold block and use Embers to stay alive 1v1 against someone I think thats fine, I have ran into a few guys doing this, i simply use my superior mobility to disengage and find someone else to kill, its not like these Ember DK builds are DPS machines in the slightest.

I think Magicka DK do very well now against Sorcs with Wings, its a good counter to my Overload, so i have to use other options against them, i think thats good for the game. DK needed something to help them stay alive against 1 or 2 people because they have no mobility, escape, or repositioning tools...Embers is fine IMO leave it alone....It takes the place of Dragon Blood which as it stands now is useless.

AfkNinja

Why should I have to explain this to you if you play Dragonknight? It's not even debatable, DragonKnight has the best mitigation passives and skills. It's why they make such great tanks. You've never fought a Mitigation DK? A Perma blocker? This is just 1 skill, it heals as much as Honor the Dead if you pop it after 2 seconds and it's WAY WAY WAY cheaper. It can be applied to multiple people AND it does damage. Honor the Dead does no damage, if you trap a Templar in spamming heals he can do nothing else and you have halfway won the fight. A DK healing 6k per second with this could stand toe to toe with you and spam one skill and you'll never kill him. How is this not an issue to you guys? Are you really just so biased you can't see when something is unbalanced on your class? Is it going to take dozens of QQ threads about unkillable DK's to convince you?

Templar and DK are supposed to be mirrors of eachother imo. DK mitigates, Templar heals (this doesn't mean they can't do both just that Templars kit clearly favors heals and DK's clearly favors mitigation.) This change means DK now Mitigates the best and is damn close to self healing the best too.

ZOS is going to notice this and make a change, lets just hope it's a change you guys want.

DemonDruaga

Well.. it requires a lot of magicka/ mat. Dmg to be this effectiv.
That is what bugs me the most. You can go full dps and receive a massive heal trough that.
If you have better balanced stats, like me (i don't go min/max in pvp) you will never get any reliable heal out of that skill. (At least compared to other skills). So if you nerf the skill as it is now, you gonna cripple all those that don't run 40k mag, 4k mag dmg and 70% cit.

I don't know alcasts build but i guess mag dk dps runs at that(even more when fully maxed out ofc)

Just give us dragon blood back and change burning embers to the way it was

chaserstorm16909

Alcast wrote: »

Check out the MAX hit


and this is not even the max...could get a lot higher...
Mending is missing, Cprayer is missing.....etc

Don't worry, they'll fix in the next big patch with dark brotherhood.

Duiwel

AfkNinja wrote: »

which was never supposed to be their "forte".

How do you know? Maybe we want to live in a house too...

Morozov

Wing

I waited to reply to this until I went into pvp for a while (I have a DK too ya'know)

maybe good in pvp, where mobs are predictable and you can kinda relax.

but for PvP? pffft I went back to stamina so fast, magicka DK is still not very good in PvP, maybe for trolling a little but it has very little kill power because of how the class works.

-its magicka at melee range
-its dot based
-the heal from embers requires you to hit the target at melee ranged, do decent damage as its based on damage, and wait for it to proc or hit them again.

all of this is no good in pvp, when people are in and out of combat so fast, if your in melee range its for seconds during a burst (charge in, do combo, roll dodge out or finish off)

the reason Magicka DK was good ~1.5 was because you could hit the armor cap in light armor, block without huge penalty, chain CC, perma immobilize, could not rollerblade, lava whip WAS good, and things like their scales and dragon blood had yet to be nerfed into the ground.

I'm sorry but the game has just evolved past the point of magicka DK being good in pvp anymore via class nerfs / balance changes and game changes as a whole.

PVE? yeah magicka DK has always been good and I'm sure it will be even better.
PVP? sorry, its strengths just don't work well in pvp.

Magicka:
-Templars are more reliable and have better instant survivability (BoL spam) with better damage options. (including ranged options)
-Nightblades have better burst, utility, and mobility, and once again ranged options.
-Sorcs are pretty much the premier magicka class, no doubt.

sorry, Magicka DK is outclassed in PvP by literally any other Magicka class.

slumber_sandb16_ESO

I love burning embers on my stamina tank in pve, giving me a lot more self healing and durability. But no doubt its going to be balanced for DPS which will make it useless for tanks. Tanks always get screwed in the end.