Class balance and bug fixes are not DLC features

WalkingLegacy · February 2016

So why continue to make us wait months for bug fixes, and balance changes?

Why isn't the backend client set up to allow for more hotfixes and class changes when ever the team has something to push out

A handful of changes a week is a lot better than mass changes every 4 months and then anything found broken or not working takes the next DLC for fixes.

This ESO live he says they have stamina changes for Update 10 which is Dark Brotherhood. That is 5 amazing months away at the least to wait for fixes.

Wrobel's team should have priority on pushing patches and hotfixes to the PTS and Live client. Class balances, combat balances, exploits and skills that are bugged are a pretty important thing to keep squared away in an action MMO.

Bug fixes, class changes and big client changes (such as 64bit) need to be pushed to the PTS on a 'regular' basis for testing throughout the year. Not just for DLC patches.

Matt Firor should be looking into this.

Update from Gina on a development path down the road and they will be mimicking something like the Developer Comments on the bottom of the picture.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

WalkingLegacy wrote: »

I'll post this from the other thread, would be nice to see things like this - even on the PTS

That's actually something we've been talking about doing in the future (assuming we're both looking at the Developer Comments section).

Edit: By "the future", that just means we don't have time to do it for Thieves Guild release next week, but potentially starting in one of the incrementals.

SanTii.92 · February 2016

Agreed, a balance patch at least every month would be healthier.

ColoursYouHave · February 2016

WalkingLegacy wrote: »

So why continue to make us wait months for fixes and balance changes?

Why isn't the backend client set up to allow for more hotfixes and class changes when ever the team has something to push out?

A handful of changes a week is a lot better than mass changes every 4 months and then anything found broken or not working takes the next DLC for fixes.

This ESO live he says they have stamina changes for Update 10 which is Dark Brotherhood. That is 5 amazing months away at the least to wait for fixes.

Wrobel's team should have priority on pushing hotfixes to Live client. Class balances and combat balances are a pretty important thing to keep squared away in an action MMO.

Matt Firor should be looking into this.

I have no problem with ZOS doing all their class balancing when they release DLC. What I do have a problem with is them essentially saying they'll do some of the balancing now, and then do the rest in the next DLC. If you only balance part of the game now, and then wait 3 months to do the rest of the balancing, that means we are dealing with an unbalanced game that entire time. They don't have to do every single balance change they would like to make in any given DLC, but they do have to make sure they provide some balance while we wait for more changes in the next DLC. Instead of doing a bunch of balancing with magicka builds, and pretty much ignoring stamina builds, they probably would have been much better off doing a little bit of balancing with both magicka and stamina, and then do more balancing with both when the next DLC comes.

Bashev · February 2016

Tankqull wrote: »

[snip]

Main problem is that they have to launch the DLC - business. They are not ready with all the changes. Who cares we will push what we have now the rest later.

[edited to remove quote]

WalkingLegacy · February 2016

ColoursYouHave wrote: »

WalkingLegacy wrote: »

So why continue to make us wait months for fixes and balance changes?

Why isn't the backend client set up to allow for more hotfixes and class changes when ever the team has something to push out?

A handful of changes a week is a lot better than mass changes every 4 months and then anything found broken or not working takes the next DLC for fixes.

This ESO live he says they have stamina changes for Update 10 which is Dark Brotherhood. That is 5 amazing months away at the least to wait for fixes.

Wrobel's team should have priority on pushing hotfixes to Live client. Class balances and combat balances are a pretty important thing to keep squared away in an action MMO.

Matt Firor should be looking into this.

I have no problem with ZOS doing all their class balancing when they release DLC. What I do have a problem with is them essentially saying they'll do some of the balancing now, and then do the rest in the next DLC. If you only balance part of the game now, and then wait 3 months to do the rest of the balancing, that means we are dealing with an unbalanced game that entire time. They don't have to do every single balance change they would like to make in any given DLC, but they do have to make sure they provide some balance while we wait for more changes in the next DLC. Instead of doing a bunch of balancing with magicka builds, and pretty much ignoring stamina builds, they probably would have been much better off doing a little bit of balancing with both magicka and stamina, and then do more balancing with both when the next DLC comes.

Do you not feel that they are using the DLC to market updates and fixes as content to the DLC?

The problem with the rest of it is they are making us wait large swathes of time before anything goes out and 4-5 months is a heck of a lot of time to not have fun with a game.

WalkingLegacy · February 2016

Tankqull wrote: »

[snip]

Yes, they wouldn't have that issue if they pushed big fixes, class fixes, etc weekly or semi weekly though.

[edited to remove quote]

Forestd16b14_ESO · February 2016

Um.... You do know it takes more than a day or week to rebalance and program a entire MMORPG game right? So 2 months or 3 months for balancing and game changes in a MMORPG is pretty common.

WalkingLegacy · February 2016

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Um.... You do know it takes more than a day or week to rebalance and program a entire MMORPG game right? So 2 months or 3 months for balancing and game changes in a MMORPG is pretty common.

This, I don't even know where to begin.

They're sitting on changes. They're sitting on fixes they have. To group them together with other fixes they will have, and then push them all out on DLC day.

Darkeus · February 2016

after this live basicaly i feel like pushed away from the game till next dlc/major patch... well i guess ill be bk in few months.

WalkingLegacy · February 2016

Darkeus wrote: »

after this live basicaly i feel like pushed away from the game till next dlc/major patch... well i guess ill be bk in few months.

Yeah, I agree. After listening to Wrobel I feel like I'm wasting my time.

Tankqull · February 2016

to just bring it back to discussion @ZOS [ @ZOS_GinaBruno ] you must increase your patch frequency.

balance changes every 3-4 months and then restraining allready made changes (for even later patches) because you cant handle so many changes in one patch and their effects on each other are a an obvious sign (as obvious as a lighthouse) that there are significant issues in your current schedule.

do yourself and obviously us a favor and do those patches much much more frequent (EVE is a perfect example of how to do it...)

Lysette · February 2016

Tankqull wrote: »

to just bring it back to discussion @ZOS [ @ZOS_GinaBruno ] you must increase your patch frequency.

balance changes every 3-4 months and then restraining allready made changes (for even later patches) because you cant handle so many changes in one patch and their effects on each other are a an obvious sign (as obvious as a lighthouse) that there are significant issues in your current schedule.

do yourself and obviously us a favor and do those patches much much more frequent (EVE is a perfect example of how to do it...)

Exactly. EVE online handles this is a responsive way, if there is something causing trouble, it will be fixed within a couple of days, often right on the next one. So as a customer I never have to worry about if something is not working properly, it will be fixed "soon" but as in tomorrow or the other day. Not in months or years, what is just ridiculously unprofessional.

Xendyn · February 2016

Tankqull wrote: »

to just bring it back to discussion @ZOS [ @ZOS_GinaBruno ] you must increase your patch frequency.

balance changes every 3-4 months and then restraining allready made changes (for even later patches) because you cant handle so many changes in one patch and their effects on each other are a an obvious sign (as obvious as a lighthouse) that there are significant issues in your current schedule.

do yourself and obviously us a favor and do those patches much much more frequent (EVE is a perfect example of how to do it...)

Quoting for emphasis.
DO it, ZOS.
You're taking too long to get fixes in and patience is a finite resource. People are running out of it.

Sausage · February 2016

I think they should wait, if they push fixes too fast to live, it means theres even more bugs. Play something else.

Ampnode · February 2016

Ampnode wrote: »

This game will fail and die quickly if they don't stop the whole 4-5 months waiting period for bug fixes and skill changes. Content must be made I know, but that's why they have separate development teams. Gets kinda ridiculous to wait 4-5 months to get disappointed that you have to wait another 4-5 months.

Turelus · February 2016

He also said exactly why they're large releases and not small patches.

Because they go through extensive debate/testing both by ZOS and us before they go live. That wouldn't be as thorough is they were in the incremental patches.

Turelus · February 2016

Lysette wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

to just bring it back to discussion @ZOS [ @ZOS_GinaBruno ] you must increase your patch frequency.

balance changes every 3-4 months and then restraining allready made changes (for even later patches) because you cant handle so many changes in one patch and their effects on each other are a an obvious sign (as obvious as a lighthouse) that there are significant issues in your current schedule.

do yourself and obviously us a favor and do those patches much much more frequent (EVE is a perfect example of how to do it...)

Exactly. EVE online handles this is a responsive way, if there is something causing trouble, it will be fixed within a couple of days, often right on the next one. So as a customer I never have to worry about if something is not working properly, it will be fixed "soon" but as in tomorrow or the other day. Not in months or years, what is just ridiculously unprofessional.

EVE Online has a larger development team working on them as well IIRC. You have Fozzy and Rise, plus their teams. Wrobel has commented that a majority of the changes are him and his small team alone, they also handle all itemisation which needed to make/test new items for each release.

Edit*

Also let's remember the speedy patches in EVE are still a relatively new thing. Let's not forget the Flavour of the Two Years Dramiel's here. Or the flavour of the way too long Winmatar.

Tanis-Stormbinder · February 2016

I love that fact that Zos has committed it self to releasing a new DLC every three or four months, it keeps the game fresh and exciting. That said, I also see the need for Zos to have a dedicated team to fix bugs and balance issues as soon as possible. In the pass we have gone for months with classes that were too OP, broken passives and skills that are unusable. I see this as my greatest disappointment in the Elder Scrolls Online series. My hope is that with all the negative feed back in the forums this will change.

Jura23 · February 2016

Sausage wrote: »

I think they should wait, if they push fixes too fast to live, it means theres even more bugs. Play something else.

I think OP is suggesting they fix bugs on weekly basis as well, which I completely agree with. Other games can do it, ESO can do it too.

Bashev · February 2016

ZoS used to work on the skills all the time. At least the first year. Here --> http://tamrieljournal.com/category/patch-notes/
you can check the changes in the patches. You will see that they were tweaking the skills and bug fix them pretty good till 1.5. Then we had some really good game. They needed just a little bit more tweaks but instead of that they jumped in another direction with the CP system.

petraeus1 · February 2016

Bug fixes - agreed, more incrementals are good. Balance updates, not so much, unless something is completely super-batman OP imba. Rather than hotfixing imbalances, I'd rather have ZOS take their time to weigh balance issues within the larger picture of classes, CP, item sets and to make changes that encompass all these areas with a larger scheme in mind, instead of responding to outcries from the community. Because the community will always cry about imbalance. You know this too, if you have any experience with MMOs or online games. Kneejerking is the worst thing they could do, so while I'm not against more frequent patches, grand balance updates should not come every couple of weeks.

Sallington · February 2016

Sausage wrote: »

I think they should wait, if they push fixes too fast to live, it means theres even more bugs. Play something else.

They are going to introduce new bugs, whether they implement changes now or in 5 months. At least if they release the changes now they can work on fixing everything they broke.

Sallington · February 2016

Bashev wrote: »

ZoS used to work on the skills all the time. At least the first year. Here --> http://tamrieljournal.com/category/patch-notes/
you can check the changes in the patches. You will see that they were tweaking the skills and bug fix them pretty good till 1.5. Then we had some really good game. They needed just a little bit more tweaks but instead of that they jumped in another direction with the CP system.

Back when the game had a subscription (non-B2P) model. Yup. That's how games get more regular updates and patches.

WalkingLegacy · February 2016

Turelus wrote: »

He also said exactly why they're large releases and not small patches.

Because they go through extensive debate/testing both by ZOS and us before they go live. That wouldn't be as thorough is they were in the incremental patches.

You're assuming and trying to persuade us that their incremental patches are thorough, when they aren't.

petraeus1 wrote: »

Bug fixes - agreed, more incrementals are good. Balance updates, not so much, unless something is completely super-batman OP imba. Rather than hotfixing imbalances, I'd rather have ZOS take their time to weigh balance issues within the larger picture of classes, CP, item sets and to make changes that encompass all these areas with a larger scheme in mind, instead of responding to outcries from the community. Because the community will always cry about imbalance. You know this too, if you have any experience with MMOs or online games. Kneejerking is the worst thing they could do, so while I'm not against more frequent patches, grand balance updates should not come every couple of weeks.

There's taking time, and taking too much time. It is starting to become a trend on the experience of their QA team (if they even have one) and the skills and experience of Wrobel's team. The point of the thread is that bug fixes (broken skills, quests, animations, items, etc etc) balance changes (such as two similar skills but one is more favorable over the other or broken skills like Templar Charge) are NOT DLC contents.

Patch notes example on what class nerfs/buffs/fixes should look like:

Blizzard is starting a good trend with Developer comments on why they do something. This is something that other companies should mimic. I realize this a double edged sword though and listening to Wrobel's reasoning may cause a deep desire of head to keyboard smashing.

D0ntevenL1ft · February 2016

WalkingLegacy wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

He also said exactly why they're large releases and not small patches.

Because they go through extensive debate/testing both by ZOS and us before they go live. That wouldn't be as thorough is they were in the incremental patches.

You're assuming and trying to persuade us that their incremental patches are thorough, when they aren't.

petraeus1 wrote: »

Bug fixes - agreed, more incrementals are good. Balance updates, not so much, unless something is completely super-batman OP imba. Rather than hotfixing imbalances, I'd rather have ZOS take their time to weigh balance issues within the larger picture of classes, CP, item sets and to make changes that encompass all these areas with a larger scheme in mind, instead of responding to outcries from the community. Because the community will always cry about imbalance. You know this too, if you have any experience with MMOs or online games. Kneejerking is the worst thing they could do, so while I'm not against more frequent patches, grand balance updates should not come every couple of weeks.

There's taking time, and taking too much time. It is starting to become a trend on the experience of their QA team (if they even have one) and the skills and experience of Wrobel's team. The point of the thread is that bug fixes (broken skills, quests, animations, items, etc etc) balance changes (such as two similar skills but one is more favorable over the other or broken skills like Templar Charge)

Patch notes example on what class nerfs/buffs/fixes should look like:

Blizzard is starting a good trend with Developer comments on why they do something. This is something that other companies should mimic. I realize this a double edged sword though and listening to Wrobel's reasoning may cause a deep sense of head to keyboard smashing.

Communication is essential between devs and players and i completely agree with what you are saying and what blizzard is starting to do! The problem is the communication between us and devs is not always the friendliest lol so they tend to avoid it at all costs. Cough aoe caps.I say lets implement our democratic gamer rights and we vote on changes to happen or not. MURICA'

Moglijuana · February 2016

Turelus wrote: »

He also said exactly why they're large releases and not small patches.

Because they go through extensive debate/testing both by ZOS and us before they go live. That wouldn't be as thorough is they were in the incremental patches.

LOL. I'm pretty sure ZOS doesn't debate anything and just does w.e the hell they want. Look at all the polls that have been blatantly ignored over this games life span. I've only been playing since console release and within a few months could already tell how un involved the Dev team really is with their community. Oh wait, I forgot they like listening to Trading Guilds and PvE Heros for their MASSIVE combat changes...smh

Tanis-Stormbinder · February 2016

The Thieves Guild DLC was suppose to begin badly needed class balance changes but I find the changes are lacking in most of the classes. It just seems not much effort was taken during the process and we now have to wait an additional three months. I feel cheated

Ilterendi · February 2016

DO it, ZOS.

Totally read this with Shia Labeouf's voice.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=web&cd=&ved=0ahUKEwif7_3fp_rKAhVC3WMKHVZTBdoQjhwIBQ&url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YSN-f3rcZM&psig=AFQjCNG3IMy5cB8GYfboKcPhFEIR-jAGVg&ust=1455644296792565&rct=j

WalkingLegacy · February 2016

Tanis-Stormbinder wrote: »

The Thieves Guild DLC was suppose to begin badly needed class balance changes but I find the changes are lacking in most of the classes. It just seems not much effort was taken during the process and we now have to wait an additional three months. I feel cheated

Three months? Dark Brotherhood will likely be 4 months after Thieves Guild.

Turelus · February 2016

The thing is everyone wants the Developers to listen to them, they want communication and explanations.
However the moment one says something like "one idea was AP caps" the community turns into a pitch fork and torch wielding mob throwing insults and rude comments out.

The community has also demanded developers lose their jobs because they're "incompetent" many times. If you want the developers to actually listen to you and respect you start acting like someone (or a community) which deserves that respect. Additionally your view and the views of these forums are still only a fraction of this games player base, maybe we're the more vocal and invested members but that doesn't mean we have all the information required to understand what's happening.

Simply enough start looking at making constructive threads and give feedback and information in a way which developers like Wrobel can come and look at it, see what you're talking about and walk away without filtering through all the hyperbol and rage without actual factual evidence to back it up.

There is a link in my signature to a post I made early on in ESO's release. It's taken from the EVE Online forums and is a breakdown from a developer about what makes a post useful to him. If you really want to provide feedback which get looked at and listened to read that and try to post that way.

Lastly, just because they don't go with your idea doesn't mean they're not listening, end of the day this is still their game and they can make the choices they want. If you're really not happy with that go and find another MMO which satisfies your needs more.

/endrant

WalkingLegacy · February 2016

Turelus wrote: »

The thing is everyone wants the Developers to listen to them, they want communication and explanations.
However the moment one says something like "one idea was AP caps" the community turns into a pitch fork and torch wielding mob throwing insults and rude comments out.

The community has also demanded developers lose their jobs because they're "incompetent" many times. If you want the developers to actually listen to you and respect you start acting like someone (or a community) which deserves that respect. Additionally your view and the views of these forums are still only a fraction of this games player base, maybe we're the more vocal and invested members but that doesn't mean we have all the information required to understand what's happening.

Simply enough start looking at making constructive threads and give feedback and information in a way which developers like Wrobel can come and look at it, see what you're talking about and walk away without filtering through all the hyperbol and rage without actual factual evidence to back it up.

There is a link in my signature to a post I made early on in ESO's release. It's taken from the EVE Online forums and is a breakdown from a developer about what makes a post useful to him. If you really want to provide feedback which get looked at and listened to read that and try to post that way.

Lastly, just because they don't go with your idea doesn't mean they're not listening, end of the day this is still their game and they can make the choices they want. If you're really not happy with that go and find another MMO which satisfies your needs more.

/endrant

Good points and my pitchfork was in the shed for this post