Class balance and bug fixes are not DLC features
Update 46 is now available for testing on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/676209
Maintenance for the week of April 14:
· [COMPLETE] Xbox: NA and EU megaservers for maintenance – April 16, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 9:00AM EDT (13:00 UTC)
· [COMPLETE] PlayStation®: NA and EU megaservers for maintenance – April 16, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 9:00AM EDT (13:00 UTC)
· [COMPLETE] Xbox: NA and EU megaservers for maintenance – April 16, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 9:00AM EDT (13:00 UTC)
· [COMPLETE] PlayStation®: NA and EU megaservers for maintenance – April 16, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 9:00AM EDT (13:00 UTC)
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DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Elektrakosh wrote: »Would these patches be in the dlc only so you have to get it for the balancing?
The patches are not part of the DLC. They are base game patches. They are just released at the same time and installed together, though they might be separate packages in the update. I have no idea about that.
The significance of the DLC date is their development and testing schedule. They also always include large scale UAT on the PTS before DLC releases.0 -
WalkingLegacy✭✭✭✭✭
✭DaveMoeDee wrote: »Why would they not release patches until DB? In the past they release patches regularly.
Balance change should not be regular occurrences. If 30 skills will be changed, can you really test balance without testing the final state of all skills at the same time? It is bad enough that rebalances happen at all. If we have to suffer through them, at least make them rare as they are nothing more than a nuisance for a large part of the game's population.
Plus, unless you make all skills weak and identical, you really need to be able to test all the skill changes at the same time to see the net result for each class.
How many people play on PTS year round? Will they get numbers needed if they ask people to be there all year?
It's a double edged sword for sure.
On one hand, players can test all day on PTS but a lot of things are ignored or not able to be fixed by release - so what's the point in testing. Then they push live anyways.
30 changes to classes at once, warrants as close to live testing as possible and that means PTS. And to your point, if Magika got it's changes this go around, and stamina gets their changes in 3-4 months, we will never know how those changes play out live until Dark Bro release.
Little percent changes more than likely don't need to be tested because they have the base metrics collected from live and should be able to do the math on what the change brings.
If there are big plans for stamina and still magika in the works, they need to group those changes up, clean them in house, and push to PTS for testing.
They don't utilize the PTS very well right now, and unless they change it soon, even the player base will ignore it.Edited by WalkingLegacy on March 16, 2016 7:47PM2 -
charley222✭✭✭✭yea is very sad how this game is balance , in my book the guy dont play game and have any clue of what is doing , i think is very obvious , just a little quick exemple everyone know from release heavy armor is far too be the best(pve and pvp)and never have very good passive , and today heavy never be fix and on the top of this is more worst because all stack penetration , make def useless , idk what the guy is working too balance this game thinking sometime ,idk this just make any sense , and dont have any hope of the people are in place for this issue because the very abyssal capacity of thinking and fix issue in the pass , a lot of problem are from release and is still now fix today , not very fun for player
have a nice day peace +1 op
sorry for my bad englishEdited by charley222 on March 16, 2016 7:53PMthe wall of the covenant4 -
bedlom✭✭✭✭✭
✭True, but do you think you will ever play a bug free game that is worth playing?
ESO has less bugs than any TES game, oblivion and skyrim are still filled with the same bugs they released with, and there all single player.0 -
WalkingLegacy✭✭✭✭✭
✭True, but do you think you will ever play a bug free game that is worth playing?
ESO has less bugs than any TES game, oblivion and skyrim are still filled with the same bugs they released with, and there all single player.
Bugs in TES players can fix themselves and bugs don't present as big an issue in SP game as they do an MMO. Modders released bug fixes long before Bethesda did.
I doubt any game nowadays will be bug free, but accepting ones that haven't been fixed in over a year is not acceptable.4 -
DHale✭✭✭✭✭
✭Hey I get the honey and vinegar analogy but it's been 2 years. I was a manager for over a dozen years. I was required to deliver certain benchmarks and deliverables each and every month and yearly. On top of that we had customer service goals. If the customer wasn't happy if the customer complaints were not addressed if the customer went elsewhere people lost their jobs. Who I liked or who liked me was totally irrevelevant. When I didn't meet my metrics I had to get an action plan in place and address it. Two months of not meeting metrics.... Coached... Counseled... Disciplined.... Terminated. I want this game to be the top game in the world. I want it to succeed. I am...we are...passionate about this game. We see fringes of greatness. It's got to be fun it's got to be worth more than the frustrations. When I logged in a couple of days ago and fell through the world endlessly and put in a ticket and get the run around from customer service I want to scream. Did you try relogging? Did you disable add ons? Did you put /stuck. I just don't think I should pay 150 gold for your screw up and if we were at any restaurant in the world we would get a free meal. You know it I know it. It does not matter if you don't want aoe caps removed the players want aoe caps gone so do it. Will it fix anything? Maybe maybe not but you aquiesse over silly things but doggedly say we aren't looking into this right now. Just do it bc your customers want it. My Safeway stopped carrying promise butter spread. So I called an assistant manager 3 to complain. He said there was nothing he could do. I am in the same store 6 months later I get some guy and his team of hanger ons he is the district manager, he asked me how my shopping experience was I tell him about the butter spread. That assistant manager calls me the very next day to say they would be stocking promise and he deeply apologized for "his" mistake. I went there the next day bought like 7 of them guess how much it was. It was free no charge and I got a gift card. Did I expect it... No. They exceeded my expectations.i now have the store managers number do I expect special treatment no... do I get excellent customer service, yes! Is Safeway going to be hurt if I stopped shopping there... Nope but they did it anyway.
Edited by DHale on March 16, 2016 8:11PMSorcerna, proud beta sorc. RIP April 2014 to May 31 2016 DArk Brotherhood. Out of retirement for negates and encases. Sorcerna will be going back into retirement to be my main crafter Fall 2018. Because an 8 k shield is f ing useless. Died because of baddies on the forum. Too much qq too little pew pew. 16 AD 2 DC. 0 EP cause they bad, CP 2300 plus 18 level 50 toons. NA, PC, Grey Host#SORCLIVESMATTER actually they don’t or they wouldn’t keep getting nerfed constantly.3 -
WalkingLegacy✭✭✭✭✭
✭charley222 wrote: »yea is very sad how this game is balance , in my book the guy dont play game and have any clue of what is doing , i think is very obvious , just a little quick exemple everyone know from release heavy armor is far too be the best(pve and pvp)and never have very good passive , and today heavy never be fix and on the top of this is more worst because all stack penetration , make def useless , idk what the guy is working too balance this game thinking sometime ,idk this just make any sense , and dont have any hope of the people are in place for this issue because the very abyssal capacity of thinking and fix issue in the pass , a lot of problem are from release and is still now fix today , not very fun for player
have a nice day peace +1 op
sorry for my bad english
Thanks for supporting timely fixes.
The sad thing is Matt Firor PvPs with us in Cyrodiil. He is a fellow PvP player and always has been.
He's also the President of ZOS and the Director of ESO, and they still haven't fixed Cyrodiil or many combat bugs present in the game.
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DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭WalkingLegacy wrote: »
It's a double edged sword for sure.
On one hand, players can test all day on PTS but a lot of things are ignored or not able to be fixed by release - so what's the point in testing. Then they push live anyways.
30 changes to classes at once, warrants as close to live testing as possible and that means PTS. And to your point, if Magika got it's changes this go around, and stamina gets their changes in 3-4 months, we will never know how those changes play out live until Dark Bro release.
Little percent changes more than likely don't need to be tested because they have the base metrics collected from live and should be able to do the math on what the change brings.
If there are big plans for stamina and still magika in the works, they need to group those changes up, clean them in house, and push to PTS for testing.
They don't utilize the PTS very well right now, and unless they change it soon, even the player base will ignore it.
That is already the case. The vast majority of the player base has never used the PTS and never will.
Heck, the majority probably doesn't even know what the "PTS" is.Edited by DaveMoeDee on March 16, 2016 8:11PM0 -
WalkingLegacy✭✭✭✭✭
✭DaveMoeDee wrote: »
That is already the case. The vast majority of the player base has never used the PTS and never will.
Heck, the majority probably doesn't even know what the "PTS" is.
Like I said, because it's not utilized correctly. The big guilds do and are usually the ones testing out the new end game.0 -
Teridaxus✭✭✭✭✭
✭I would be already happy if they fix exploits like gold mat/pig farming, penetration stacking up to the point to ignore 100% of the enemy armour or werewolf stam regen in human form.0 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭One thing I have wondered about in the past, concerning class balance, is the ramifications of class removal altogether. If we didn't have 3 specific skill lines jammed into 4 classes, and instead had 12 skill lines that we got to pick and choose from, would balancing be easier? Then the concern is not about balancing classes, but simply balancing skill lines.
I imagine that patches for skill line balances could be more frequent and timely if classes were removed.Edited by GrumpyDuckling on March 17, 2016 2:32AM2 -
WalkingLegacy✭✭✭✭✭
✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »One thing I have wondered about in the past, concerning class balance, is the ramifications of class removal altogether. If we didn't have 3 specific skill lines jammed into 4 classes, and instead had 12 skill lines that we got to pick and choose from, would balancing be easier? Then the concern is not about balancing classes, but simply balancing skill lines.
I imagine that patches for skill line balances could be more frequent and timely if classes were removed.
That's a whole lot of combos to account for which to me make it seems like it would be much harder to balance.
Edited by WalkingLegacy on March 17, 2016 2:59AM1 -
Conquistador✭✭✭✭✭Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »Um.... You do know it takes more than a day or week to rebalance and program a entire MMORPG game right? So 2 months or 3 months for balancing and game changes in a MMORPG is pretty common.
Found the fanboy in the haystack5 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭WalkingLegacy wrote: »
That's a whole lot of combos to account for which to me make it seems like it would be much harder to balance.
I had considered that, too. But allowing skill line combos might force ZOS' hand at making certain skill lines more relevant. If you allowed players to choose their 3 skill lines then initially there would be the popular combinations of 4 to 6 skill lines that most people would use. Those would probably be:
- Shadow (for cloak)
- Daedric (for ward)
- Storm (for bolt escape)
- Restoring Light (for healing)
Then there would be a few skill lines that not many people would use. Those might be:
- Dawn's Wrath
- Dark Magic
- Ardent Flame (maybe)
Removing classes would force ZOS to look at why people don't choose certain skill lines, and hopefully they could re-balance skill line performance to make them all relevant.
Right now, class restrictions seem, to me, to be the primary issue with balancing and part of the problem as to why balancing takes so long. I can't see a PVP world in which a Templar house is better than a mobile Nightblade. The gameplay moves too fast. And it's not like the 3 Templar skill lines are terrible... they just form a terrible combination for the style of play that ZOS envisions Templars for. I'd love to be able to replace the Dawn's Wrath skill line with one that would allow me to protect the house I am "supposed" to be living in.
If Zos didn't have to worry about balancing the delicacies of 3 strict skill lines in each class, they could get out of the "class box" and hopefully it would make balancing easier for them. Then we wouldn't have classes who are "supposed" to perform in a certain way because that's simply the way ZOS envisions them. How do you balance 4 different gameplay visions, fairly?
Edited by GrumpyDuckling on March 17, 2016 5:31AM2 -
Faulgor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Removing classes would force ZOS to look at why people don't choose certain skill lines, and hopefully they could re-balance skill line performance to make them all relevant.
Yup. Without class restrictions, skills are competing directly with each other for a limited amount of slots in your skill bar. When people consistently use Hardened Ward over Sun Shield, it's very easy to see balance problems.
Besides, most skills are already available to everyone from non-class skill lines. Only thing that has to be kept in mind are class passives, which should probably only work when using/slotting an active skill of that line. Otherwise everyone will simply get passives like Refreshing Shadows.Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.0 -
WalkingLegacy✭✭✭✭✭
✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »
I had considered that, too. But allowing skill line combos might force ZOS' hand at making certain skill lines more relevant. If you allowed players to choose their 3 skill lines then initially there would be the popular combinations of 4 to 6 skill lines that most people would use. Those would probably be:
- Shadow (for cloak)
- Daedric (for ward)
- Storm (for bolt escape)
- Restoring Light (for healing)
Then there would be a few skill lines that not many people would use. Those might be:
- Dawn's Wrath
- Dark Magic
- Ardent Flame (maybe)
Removing classes would force ZOS to look at why people don't choose certain skill lines, and hopefully they could re-balance skill line performance to make them all relevant.
Right now, class restrictions seem, to me, to be the primary issue with balancing and part of the problem as to why balancing takes so long. I can't see a PVP world in which a Templar house is better than a mobile Nightblade. The gameplay moves too fast. And it's not like the 3 Templar skill lines are terrible... they just form a terrible combination for the style of play that ZOS envisions Templars for. I'd love to be able to replace the Dawn's Wrath skill line with one that would allow me to protect the house I am "supposed" to be living in.
If Zos didn't have to worry about balancing the delicacies of 3 strict skill lines in each class, they could get out of the "class box" and hopefully it would make balancing easier for them. Then we wouldn't have classes who are "supposed" to perform in a certain way because that's simply the way ZOS envisions them. How do you balance 4 different gameplay visions, fairly?
Interesting. I like your thoughts.0 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭WalkingLegacy wrote: »
Interesting. I like your thoughts.
Thanks. In theory I think it works. However, like you had pointed out there would be definite drawbacks if classes were removed, especially right away. Most people would choose the "best" skill lines. I'm hopeful (more like wishful), though, that something similar to class removal could happen so ZOS might have an easier time with balancing and get us balancing patches quicker.0 -
Autolycus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Class balancing and maintenance should be happening on a weekly or bi-weekly basis. DLCs should include new playable content, loot and items. Hew's Bane was a haphazard development; it offered very little to do outside of Abah's Landing, all of which took approximately an hour to complete (not including Abah's Landing). The actual TG quests, passives, gear, and the new trial are excellent examples of what should be included in DLC content. However, the 3-month waiting period for minor changes to skills and CP can and should be done throughout the year. There is no good reason to my knowledge for putting this to a quarterly schedule instead of a shorter, more frequent balancing schedule.1 -
Volkodav✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The thing is everyone wants the Developers to listen to them, they want communication and explanations.
However the moment one says something like "one idea was AP caps" the community turns into a pitch fork and torch wielding mob throwing insults and rude comments out.
The community has also demanded developers lose their jobs because they're "incompetent" many times. If you want the developers to actually listen to you and respect you start acting like someone (or a community) which deserves that respect. Additionally your view and the views of these forums are still only a fraction of this games player base, maybe we're the more vocal and invested members but that doesn't mean we have all the information required to understand what's happening.
Simply enough start looking at making constructive threads and give feedback and information in a way which developers like Wrobel can come and look at it, see what you're talking about and walk away without filtering through all the hyperbol and rage without actual factual evidence to back it up.
There is a link in my signature to a post I made early on in ESO's release. It's taken from the EVE Online forums and is a breakdown from a developer about what makes a post useful to him. If you really want to provide feedback which get looked at and listened to read that and try to post that way.
Lastly, just because they don't go with your idea doesn't mean they're not listening, end of the day this is still their game and they can make the choices they want. If you're really not happy with that go and find another MMO which satisfies your needs more.
/endrant
I agree 100%. Too many people want "heads to roll" when they dont get things done to their liking. How can any dev read a comment when his or her name is being dragged through the mud.And how hurtful it must be to see your baby,that you have worked on for years to build,being ripped apart by people who cant know the amount of time,pain,tears,and frustration it took to complete.They try to give us something fine and all we can do is tear it apart.0 -
WalkingLegacy✭✭✭✭✭
✭
I agree 100%. Too many people want "heads to roll" when they dont get things done to their liking. How can any dev read a comment when his or her name is being dragged through the mud.And how hurtful it must be to see your baby,that you have worked on for years to build,being ripped apart by people who cant know the amount of time,pain,tears,and frustration it took to complete.They try to give us something fine and all we can do is tear it apart.
Good news is from this thread the developers are going to be doing something like I suggested (and others before me):ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »
That's actually something we've been talking about doing in the future (assuming we're both looking at the Developer Comments section).
Edit: By "the future", that just means we don't have time to do it for Thieves Guild release next week, but potentially starting in one of the incrementals.
Edited by WalkingLegacy on March 18, 2016 1:11AM0 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
I agree 100%. Too many people want "heads to roll" when they dont get things done to their liking. How can any dev read a comment when his or her name is being dragged through the mud.And how hurtful it must be to see your baby,that you have worked on for years to build,being ripped apart by people who cant know the amount of time,pain,tears,and frustration it took to complete.They try to give us something fine and all we can do is tear it apart.
You're right, and I agree with 99% of your comment. The 1% remainder being the "common sense" oversights that set people off and cause them to make mean, foolish, unhelpful comments. The 1% are things like:
1) Proxy det being OP and everyone pretty much "needing" to use it. How is that fun? And how is that viable for stamina builds?
2) Magicka being way more powerful than stamina (enough to the point where the balance team realized its an issue and said "we'll get to stamina in the Dark Brotherhood DLC." Why not just hold off on the champion changes that make magicka even more unbalanced and implement them along with the stamina changes?
3) Sorc shields being so strong and such an issue that they make one set, Shield Breaker, which forces players into wearing a specific set of armor. Why couldn't they just reduce the strength of shields a little?
It's decisions/oversights like these that people struggle to understand and that make them so frustrated. I haven't been one to say anything mean because I wouldn't want to be in the position that the balance team is in - it seems like such a headache - and frankly their work does not warrant anyone being mean to them. It's a videogame. But again, going back to the point of this thread, I think people would be less confused and frustrated if balancing was more frequent than 4/5 months. Perhaps more responsiveness with balancing issues would 1) reduce the amount of mean spirited comments we see, and 2) offer even better gameplay.0 -
DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Class balancing and maintenance should be happening on a weekly or bi-weekly basis. DLCs should include new playable content, loot and items. Hew's Bane was a haphazard development; it offered very little to do outside of Abah's Landing, all of which took approximately an hour to complete (not including Abah's Landing). The actual TG quests, passives, gear, and the new trial are excellent examples of what should be included in DLC content. However, the 3-month waiting period for minor changes to skills and CP can and should be done throughout the year. There is no good reason to my knowledge for putting this to a quarterly schedule instead of a shorter, more frequent balancing schedule.
Weekly on PTS, sure. No way should skills be messed with weekly or bi-weekly. It is already chaotic enough rebalancing them at all. I they can separate how skills work in PvP and PvE, sure. But if everyone will have to deal with skill changes, it should be a rare occurrence. It shouldn't even be a quarterly occurrence.0 -
WalkingLegacy✭✭✭✭✭
✭DaveMoeDee wrote: »
Weekly on PTS, sure. No way should skills be messed with weekly or bi-weekly. It is already chaotic enough rebalancing them at all. I they can separate how skills work in PvP and PvE, sure. But if everyone will have to deal with skill changes, it should be a rare occurrence. It shouldn't even be a quarterly occurrence.
Things like small percentage changes could be pushed Live with little fallout. Complete revamps should be PTS then live though.0 -
magnusthorek✭✭✭✭✭
✭
That's why Magicka Detonation is the last skill on Assault skill line. It takes a long time to get it, even with recent changes, while Vigor is an awesome self-healing skill and you can get it fairly quick.GrumpyDuckling wrote: »1) Proxy det being OP and everyone pretty much "needing" to use it. How is that fun? And how is that viable for stamina builds?
So, basically, you said that the much needed boost magicka players received to keep competing on the urges for DPS in PvE should not be added, keeping the almightyness of stamina players until DB DLC in which BOTH types of players would receve a boost so the "good one" is boosted even more than the needed one?GrumpyDuckling wrote: »2) Magicka being way more powerful than stamina (enough to the point where the balance team realized its an issue and said "we'll get to stamina in the Dark Brotherhood DLC." Why not just hold off on the champion changes that make magicka even more unbalanced and implement them along with the stamina changes?
Isn't having them cut by 50% in Cyrodiil nerf enough? C'mon...GrumpyDuckling wrote: »3) Sorc shields being so strong and such an issue that they make one set, Shield Breaker, which forces players into wearing a specific set of armor. Why couldn't they just reduce the strength of shields a little?
I am the very model of a scientist Salarian, I've studied species Turian, Asari, and Batarian.
I'm quite good at genetics (as a subset of biology) because I am an expert (which I know is a tautology).
My xenoscience studies range from urban to agrarian, I am the very model of a Scientist Salarian.0 -
ub17_ESO✭✭✭ColoursYouHave wrote: »
I have no problem with ZOS doing all their class balancing when they release DLC. What I do have a problem with is them essentially saying they'll do some of the balancing now, and then do the rest in the next DLC. If you only balance part of the game now, and then wait 3 months to do the rest of the balancing, that means we are dealing with an unbalanced game that entire time. They don't have to do every single balance change they would like to make in any given DLC, but they do have to make sure they provide some balance while we wait for more changes in the next DLC. Instead of doing a bunch of balancing with magicka builds, and pretty much ignoring stamina builds, they probably would have been much better off doing a little bit of balancing with both magicka and stamina, and then do more balancing with both when the next DLC comes.
Forgive me if i'm wrong, lol, but that's how a teeter-totter works right?? balance one end at a time...0 -
Averya_Teira✭✭✭✭✭He also said exactly why they're large releases and not small patches.
Because they go through extensive debate/testing both by ZOS and us before they go live. That wouldn't be as thorough is they were in the incremental patches.
And yet... Every patch/DLC brings more and more bugs ? How do you explain that huh ?2 -
Autolycus✭✭✭✭✭
✭DaveMoeDee wrote: »
Weekly on PTS, sure. No way should skills be messed with weekly or bi-weekly. It is already chaotic enough rebalancing them at all. I they can separate how skills work in PvP and PvE, sure. But if everyone will have to deal with skill changes, it should be a rare occurrence. It shouldn't even be a quarterly occurrence.
You're mistaking routine rebalancing for what ESO actually likes to do, which is virtually redesign classes each update. There is a really big difference between something like adjusting a value on a tooltip, shortening/lengthening a cast time, etc. and changing how half the skills perform. If we had weekly or bi-weekly rebalancing, we wouldn't be so pissed off every time a new DLC releases and we have to relearn our class.
But the key point here is maintenance, not rebalancing. Minor rebalances can be done weekly or biweekly almost seamlessly alongside of maintenance. But what we really need is routine maintenance. Between the memory leaks and just poor coding, overbearance on the megaserver (particularly with a huge influx of players in past few months), the fact that everyone who pvps is on a single server now, and I'm certain there are other issues I'm forgetting, this game is taking a huge performance hit.
We can't even enjoy a night of trials anymore; Since TG launched, there has not been a single night (of our 3 runs per week) that we were all able to stay logged into the game long enough to do a single boss encounter. In most cases, at least 2 people crash immediately after the pull. Beyond that, mechanics are not visible on-screen for multiple people (kinda hard to move out of them when they aren't visible) and even adds don't become visible until 10-20 seconds after they spawn. I know of people who can't even login and check their mail without experiencing a crash. This game has gone to crap in terms of performance.Edited by Autolycus on April 11, 2016 5:47PM4 -
WalkingLegacy✭✭✭✭✭
✭Been a month and still waiting to hear/see what the plan is for all the bugs and broken TG released into the game.1
