Animal_Mother wrote: »ZOS - DLC sells subs. Patches don't. You'll have your Thieves Guild and like it.
I believe users are the testers, so most changes will only be rolled out with a DLC because that is the only time we the users test changes on the PTS.
Time and again we see "simple" changes either not work or cause other problems. I believe their approach is not unreasonable based on historical problems and performance. That does not mean I like it.
I would suggest that they paper trial balancing and class changes BEFORE dropping them to the PTS. By this I mean, communicating to the users what they are thinking of doing to get our feedback BEFORE HAND.
He also said exactly why they're large releases and not small patches.
Because they go through extensive debate/testing both by ZOS and us before they go live. That wouldn't be as thorough is they were in the incremental patches.
He also said exactly why they're large releases and not small patches.
Because they go through extensive debate/testing both by ZOS and us before they go live. That wouldn't be as thorough is they were in the incremental patches.
He also said exactly why they're large releases and not small patches.
Because they go through extensive debate/testing both by ZOS and us before they go live. That wouldn't be as thorough is they were in the incremental patches.
Well, CCP, who run EVE online do that as well very carefully and there is even a board of elected players who work together with the Devs - this is ok for bigger changes, which have to be done with care and have a longer development cycle (as in weeks) - but bug fixes have to be done a lot quicker and are done by CCP in a very responsive way - this makes us players feel as if they care and they actually do - I do not have the same feeling with ZOS, otherwise simple bugs would be fixed within days and medium ones within a week. But of course, if a company does not care about a quality product, nothing will help.
He also said exactly why they're large releases and not small patches.
Because they go through extensive debate/testing both by ZOS and us before they go live. That wouldn't be as thorough is they were in the incremental patches.
Well, CCP, who run EVE online do that as well very carefully and there is even a board of elected players who work together with the Devs - this is ok for bigger changes, which have to be done with care and have a longer development cycle (as in weeks) - but bug fixes have to be done a lot quicker and are done by CCP in a very responsive way - this makes us players feel as if they care and they actually do - I do not have the same feeling with ZOS, otherwise simple bugs would be fixed within days and medium ones within a week. But of course, if a company does not care about a quality product, nothing will help.
The CSM have to my knowledge never been effective in stopping bad changes, nor been involved in balance changes.
Take the nerf to nullsec bounties and the "extra cash maker" structure, or the recent SP injectors where most CSM members said they were horrible ideas but CCP rolled them out any way.
I fully agree CCP has better communication and speed on issues, however they also have much bigger teams and a different development/company structure to my understanding. CCP reports to CCP, ZOS reports to Zenimax.
Again it took CCP a long time to reach where they are now, and only after the slap in the face which was the Incarna/Monocle debatable.
EVE Online also benefits from daily downtimes, meaning they're able to release a patch every day without additional downtimes, if ZOS were to release a patch more than once a week people would scream bloody murder (as we see any time a server restart/emergency patch is released).
Don't get me wrong here, I would LOVE to see ZOS work the same way as CCP however I feel they're far too different as companies and developers. Still, ZOS have listened to some of the feedback offered from us about how CCP have successfully done thing, for example the lists of changes threads we now see for expansions testing.
WalkingLegacy wrote: »Resipsa131 wrote: »
Why would you think that?
Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »Um.... You do know it takes more than a day or week to rebalance and program a entire MMORPG game right? So 2 months or 3 months for balancing and game changes in a MMORPG is pretty common.
WalkingLegacy wrote: »He also said exactly why they're large releases and not small patches.
Because they go through extensive debate/testing both by ZOS and us before they go live. That wouldn't be as thorough is they were in the incremental patches.
You're assuming and trying to persuade us that their incremental patches are thorough, when they aren't.Bug fixes - agreed, more incrementals are good. Balance updates, not so much, unless something is completely super-batman OP imba. Rather than hotfixing imbalances, I'd rather have ZOS take their time to weigh balance issues within the larger picture of classes, CP, item sets and to make changes that encompass all these areas with a larger scheme in mind, instead of responding to outcries from the community. Because the community will always cry about imbalance. You know this too, if you have any experience with MMOs or online games. Kneejerking is the worst thing they could do, so while I'm not against more frequent patches, grand balance updates should not come every couple of weeks.
There's taking time, and taking too much time. It is starting to become a trend on the experience of their QA team (if they even have one) and the skills and experience of Wrobel's team. The point of the thread is that bug fixes (broken skills, quests, animations, items, etc etc) balance changes (such as two similar skills but one is more favorable over the other or broken skills like Templar Charge) are NOT DLC contents.
Patch notes example on what class nerfs/buffs/fixes should look like:
Blizzard is starting a good trend with Developer comments on why they do something. This is something that other companies should mimic. I realize this a double edged sword though and listening to Wrobel's reasoning may cause a deep desire of head to keyboard smashing.
WalkingLegacy wrote: »He also said exactly why they're large releases and not small patches.
Because they go through extensive debate/testing both by ZOS and us before they go live. That wouldn't be as thorough is they were in the incremental patches.
You're assuming and trying to persuade us that their incremental patches are thorough, when they aren't.Bug fixes - agreed, more incrementals are good. Balance updates, not so much, unless something is completely super-batman OP imba. Rather than hotfixing imbalances, I'd rather have ZOS take their time to weigh balance issues within the larger picture of classes, CP, item sets and to make changes that encompass all these areas with a larger scheme in mind, instead of responding to outcries from the community. Because the community will always cry about imbalance. You know this too, if you have any experience with MMOs or online games. Kneejerking is the worst thing they could do, so while I'm not against more frequent patches, grand balance updates should not come every couple of weeks.
There's taking time, and taking too much time. It is starting to become a trend on the experience of their QA team (if they even have one) and the skills and experience of Wrobel's team. The point of the thread is that bug fixes (broken skills, quests, animations, items, etc etc) balance changes (such as two similar skills but one is more favorable over the other or broken skills like Templar Charge) are NOT DLC contents.
Patch notes example on what class nerfs/buffs/fixes should look like:
Blizzard is starting a good trend with Developer comments on why they do something. This is something that other companies should mimic. I realize this a double edged sword though and listening to Wrobel's reasoning may cause a deep desire of head to keyboard smashing.
League has been doing this for awhile and of course it causes negative feedback from people who don't agree with the change but it allows for understanding and communication. If people disagree with a change, but don't know why it was implemented, they can't make sound arguments as to why the change was wrong or right. When devs actually explain their position, people can more effectively counter or accept the develop position. I suspect tESO don't want discussion from anyone except the secret guild meetings they hold with PC players.
As far as the actual topic of the post goes, I agree bugs need to be addressed significantly faster. BALANCE(balance does not equal bug) changes on the other hand should not happening left and right. Ideally, the game wouldn't need balance changes if it was done right the first time but that's obviously not possible. Balance changes should be tentative because the smallest tweak in numbers can have a huge negative impact. However, issues that are clearly not intended(bugs) need to be acknowledged and removed ASAP.
WalkingLegacy wrote: »He also said exactly why they're large releases and not small patches.
Because they go through extensive debate/testing both by ZOS and us before they go live. That wouldn't be as thorough is they were in the incremental patches.
Well, CCP, who run EVE online do that as well very carefully and there is even a board of elected players who work together with the Devs - this is ok for bigger changes, which have to be done with care and have a longer development cycle (as in weeks) - but bug fixes have to be done a lot quicker and are done by CCP in a very responsive way - this makes us players feel as if they care and they actually do - I do not have the same feeling with ZOS, otherwise simple bugs would be fixed within days and medium ones within a week. But of course, if a company does not care about a quality product, nothing will help.
The CSM have to my knowledge never been effective in stopping bad changes, nor been involved in balance changes.
Take the nerf to nullsec bounties and the "extra cash maker" structure, or the recent SP injectors where most CSM members said they were horrible ideas but CCP rolled them out any way.
I fully agree CCP has better communication and speed on issues, however they also have much bigger teams and a different development/company structure to my understanding. CCP reports to CCP, ZOS reports to Zenimax.
Again it took CCP a long time to reach where they are now, and only after the slap in the face which was the Incarna/Monocle debatable.
EVE Online also benefits from daily downtimes, meaning they're able to release a patch every day without additional downtimes, if ZOS were to release a patch more than once a week people would scream bloody murder (as we see any time a server restart/emergency patch is released).
Don't get me wrong here, I would LOVE to see ZOS work the same way as CCP however I feel they're far too different as companies and developers. Still, ZOS have listened to some of the feedback offered from us about how CCP have successfully done thing, for example the lists of changes threads we now see for expansions testing.
Yes but releasing a new game, next gen if you will, with the mentality of yesteryears then you're only hurting your game.
There are other MMOs other than EVE where hotfixes and back end client fixes are pushed without any down time or player side patches. (I'm not saying they should do this to fix the current issues - just an example of what is possible)
Stacking up fixes and waiting 3-4 months or more than 12 months in ZOS case, is not acceptable for a healthy MMO.
I'm not making excuses for mediocrity to succeed. I'm asking the team to look at this problem and fix it.
He also said exactly why they're large releases and not small patches.
Because they go through extensive debate/testing both by ZOS and us before they go live. That wouldn't be as thorough is they were in the incremental patches.
Well, CCP, who run EVE online do that as well very carefully and there is even a board of elected players who work together with the Devs - this is ok for bigger changes, which have to be done with care and have a longer development cycle (as in weeks) - but bug fixes have to be done a lot quicker and are done by CCP in a very responsive way - this makes us players feel as if they care and they actually do - I do not have the same feeling with ZOS, otherwise simple bugs would be fixed within days and medium ones within a week. But of course, if a company does not care about a quality product, nothing will help.
The CSM have to my knowledge never been effective in stopping bad changes, nor been involved in balance changes.
Take the nerf to nullsec bounties and the "extra cash maker" structure, or the recent SP injectors where most CSM members said they were horrible ideas but CCP rolled them out any way.
I fully agree CCP has better communication and speed on issues, however they also have much bigger teams and a different development/company structure to my understanding. CCP reports to CCP, ZOS reports to Zenimax.
Again it took CCP a long time to reach where they are now, and only after the slap in the face which was the Incarna/Monocle debatable.
EVE Online also benefits from daily downtimes, meaning they're able to release a patch every day without additional downtimes, if ZOS were to release a patch more than once a week people would scream bloody murder (as we see any time a server restart/emergency patch is released).
Don't get me wrong here, I would LOVE to see ZOS work the same way as CCP however I feel they're far too different as companies and developers. Still, ZOS have listened to some of the feedback offered from us about how CCP have successfully done thing, for example the lists of changes threads we now see for expansions testing.
The thing is everyone wants the Developers to listen to them, they want communication and explanations.
However the moment one says something like "one idea was AP caps" the community turns into a pitch fork and torch wielding mob throwing insults and rude comments out.
The community has also demanded developers lose their jobs because they're "incompetent" many times. If you want the developers to actually listen to you and respect you start acting like someone (or a community) which deserves that respect. Additionally your view and the views of these forums are still only a fraction of this games player base, maybe we're the more vocal and invested members but that doesn't mean we have all the information required to understand what's happening.
Simply enough start looking at making constructive threads and give feedback and information in a way which developers like Wrobel can come and look at it, see what you're talking about and walk away without filtering through all the hyperbol and rage without actual factual evidence to back it up.
There is a link in my signature to a post I made early on in ESO's release. It's taken from the EVE Online forums and is a breakdown from a developer about what makes a post useful to him. If you really want to provide feedback which get looked at and listened to read that and try to post that way.
Lastly, just because they don't go with your idea doesn't mean they're not listening, end of the day this is still their game and they can make the choices they want. If you're really not happy with that go and find another MMO which satisfies your needs more.
/endrant
Can you inagine if class balance changes were pushed out at rabdom every couple of days?
How would you ever track that? Things would be effed up my friend.
I agree 5 months is a bit extreme but i do understand there does need to be a period of testing to gather data and to ensure youre not tipping to the opposite end of the scale. Pushing out hotfixes for game balance issues every week would be chaos.
Skill fixes though, i can definitely get behind.
WalkingLegacy wrote: »Can you inagine if class balance changes were pushed out at rabdom every couple of days?
How would you ever track that? Things would be effed up my friend.
I agree 5 months is a bit extreme but i do understand there does need to be a period of testing to gather data and to ensure youre not tipping to the opposite end of the scale. Pushing out hotfixes for game balance issues every week would be chaos.
Skill fixes though, i can definitely get behind.
I don't think that is what we are really pushing.
They develop something in house. Once it has substance they push it to the PTS. Test on PTS once enough metric data is collected.
Then they see if what is collected closely matches what they were going for and push live, or take it back behind currents, evolve it and push back to PTS.
This would require them to actually dedicate themselves to use the PTS and us. It would require them to use the data to actually fix things before it goes Live too.
No game is gonna survive balances and bug fixes saved for quarterly DLC though. And doubly so because they're on such a tight schedule, that things pushed to the PTS can't even be fixed in time for the dedicated time given and then everything broken is pushed Live anyways.
sirrmattus wrote: »The problem with this game is the community, you guys accept failure. You are "ok" with bugs. You are "ok" with constant DLC and Crown Store items, yet there still have been so many bugs that persist from the beginning. You are "ok" with constantly being screwed and scammed by zos. I don't understand this. How can you be passionate about something but accept the constant failure from developers? Even down to the simplest things like free respec. This isn't something we should be begging for, there was a major overhaul, we need and deserve a free respec. Horse advancements; I've spent so many real $'s on horses, when I create a new toon, I have to do it again? How can you accept this? I understand some of you are kids, who don't work for the $ you spend on ESO but some of us are adults with families, and the $'s do count and do add up. Then you have a these classes, that don't even give me reminiscence of the old TES games. Who are these phony classes? DK? Templar? Yet the lore lovers scream and are never heard. Where is our option to choose the destiny of our champions like its always been in TES? This game is an utter failure, and a scam by zos. I've been searching the past 2 months for good pvp mmo because this game doesn't have what it offered. So many of these ftp games are miles ahead of ESO in terms of PVP, its unbelievable. The only reason I spent so much time and $ into ESO was for then end game PVP, only to find out its a disaster with no real goal or point. This game was supposed to be PVP focus, if not, why not just make another single player TES game? They have ruined the franchise with ESO. There is no turning back now.
WalkingLegacy wrote: »sirrmattus wrote: »The problem with this game is the community, you guys accept failure. You are "ok" with bugs. You are "ok" with constant DLC and Crown Store items, yet there still have been so many bugs that persist from the beginning. You are "ok" with constantly being screwed and scammed by zos. I don't understand this. How can you be passionate about something but accept the constant failure from developers? Even down to the simplest things like free respec. This isn't something we should be begging for, there was a major overhaul, we need and deserve a free respec. Horse advancements; I've spent so many real $'s on horses, when I create a new toon, I have to do it again? How can you accept this? I understand some of you are kids, who don't work for the $ you spend on ESO but some of us are adults with families, and the $'s do count and do add up. Then you have a these classes, that don't even give me reminiscence of the old TES games. Who are these phony classes? DK? Templar? Yet the lore lovers scream and are never heard. Where is our option to choose the destiny of our champions like its always been in TES? This game is an utter failure, and a scam by zos. I've been searching the past 2 months for good pvp mmo because this game doesn't have what it offered. So many of these ftp games are miles ahead of ESO in terms of PVP, its unbelievable. The only reason I spent so much time and $ into ESO was for then end game PVP, only to find out its a disaster with no real goal or point. This game was supposed to be PVP focus, if not, why not just make another single player TES game? They have ruined the franchise with ESO. There is no turning back now.
I think it's only the single-player gamers you're referring to. Veteran MMO players are already moving on. Once I finish all the content my friends and I will probably be moving on too. That is unless they get their rears in gear.