Worship in Tamriel: an ESO Religion Concept

Gidorick

One of the most intriguing aspects of The Elder Scrolls is the plethora of religions and faiths that exist. In ESO, religions are represented in the cultures around Tamriel, and through the stories, quests, and lore. Players can even visit a few shrines around Tamriel to reassign their attributes, skills, and to even betroth themselves to another player.

TL/DR
Throughout the history of Elder Scrolls gods of Nirn have shown themselves to be powerful and petty. Players can curry their favor through prayer and action. In ESO there should be means by which players can revere, worship, and align themselves with any number of the deities that can be found in the various Pantheons of The Elder Scrolls. Blessings should be bestowed upon those who pray at shrines with benefits for focused prayer and punishments for worshiping opposing gods.

Gods of Nirn are not, however, always reliable. For this reason I do not believe that skill-lines for the deities of Nirn is quite the solution ESO needs. There needs to be a slight risk/reward mechanic to the system and the system needs to resemble the methods of worship in previous Elder Scrolls titles. In previous Elder Scrolls titles worshiping gods has always revolved around on activating shrines and receiving temporary blessings. There is no reason this mechanic cannot be included and improved upon in The Elder Scrolls Online.

NOTE: The below concept does NOT contain specific numbers as they tend to distract from the core concepts being presented. It would be up to ZOS to figure out the exact numbers that would be most beneficial to ESO.

Topics

• Shrines and Temples
• Prayer and Consecration
• Blessings & Evocation
• The Pantheons
• Faithfulness, and Sacrilege
• Shrines of the Saints and Individual Gods
• Crown Store Additions

Shrines and Temples
There are multiple locations already throughout ESO’s Tamriel that contain shrines for various deities. This concept would see a wide variety of shrines added to the game. Temples of the Eight should contain all eight shrines, one for each of the divines. Different cities in different regions already have temples that are dedicated to local deities. The temple of the Tribunal and shrines in Mounhold could be a location for worship of the Tibunal gods. Shrines of Malacath in Wrothgar could be used as well. As ZOS releases more DLC and opens more areas, more shrines could be opened to players of ESO.

Players should also find shrines outside of cities that would allow them to practice their worship. Random shrines could be found in the wilderness, in dungeons, in NPC homes, or even randomly spawned. Hist trees could even serve as shrines in Argonian territories.

Shrines don’t have to be organized or follow any particular rules about quantity or variety. There could be certain shrines that are only found in one location in all of Tamriel, while others could be found in every zone.

Once player housing is added to the game, players should be able to purchase, or craft, shrines for their personal use. Some players could even choose to use their Player Home to act as a sort of church for their favorite god or pantheon.

It is also important that each Pantheon include shrines to reset skill and attribute points. This has already begun to occur in ESO with shrines to Akatosh and shrines to Kyne both allowing for attribute redistribution.

Prayer and Consecration
Worshiping in Tamriel couldn’t be easier! Players simply must pray at the shrine of any of the gods. Prayers will be heard by the gods and will be awarded with the appropriate blessing for a period of time. This blessing could pass in real time or be suspended while the player is logged off. This decision would have a significant impact on the duration of the blessing.

Once a player’s prayer has been heard, they could be greeted with the prompt “Consecrate your prayers to (god) with a sacrifice of self? (Requires one Champion Point)”. Choosing to do so will consume one unallocated Champion Point. If the player has not yet earned any CP or have allocated all of their CPs, they will simply be told “Your faith is lacking. You have nothing more to offer (god).” If the player has an unallocated Champion Point the appropriate blessing is extended a significant amount and the blessing should become significantly more potent. This would cause different characters on one account to have different numbers to CPs.

If the player accesses a shrine of that same god before their blessing has expired they get the prompt “(god’s) blessing is still upon you.” And they cannot pray again until their blessing has worn off. Players should be able to extend their blessings with further prayers to other gods.

Blessings & Evocation
While I think it would be best if every god’s shrine offered different benefits to players, different shrines could offer the same benefit. If this is the case, the benefits should stack if the player prays at both shrines before their blessings expire.

Blessings could benefit a wide variety of stats that can impact any and all aspects of the game. From a god’s blessing that increases a player’s chances of catching rare fish or getting that rare drop, to a blessing that decreases repair costs or removes item damage, to a god’s that increases a player’s health regeneration rate or increases the effectiveness of potions, there isn’t an aspect of the game that couldn’t benefit from a god’s blessing.

While a player is blessed by their god, they should have an extremely slight chance of activating the god’s Evocation. Think of this as the god’s ultimate. Similarly to the blessing, the Evocation can affect any aspect of gameplay. For some of the Aedra or Daedra, perhaps the Evocation is a limited time summoning of an aspect of their Aedric or Daedric weapon. A player who evokes Sheogorath would obviously get limited use of an aspect of the Wabbajack. For lore purposes, this isn’t the Wabbajack itself, but a temporary manifestation of the power and form of the Wabbajack. For functional purposes… it’s the Wabbajack.

A few Evocation possibilities:

• Stendarr could cause the player to have a short period of increased critical hits.
• Akatosh could transform the player into a dragon.
• Nocturnal could make the player undetectable by guards, so they are free to rob, steal, and murder with impunity.
• Peryite could cause a cloud of pestilence to erupt upon a player’s death that has a high lethality rate in its area of effect.
• Arkay could cause an instant revival upon death and a period immunity to all incoming damage and increased damage dealt.
• etc…

Evocations could have a chance of being triggered when the player performs whatever act is with the power once evoked such as when they take damage, when they steal, when they fish, when they deal damage, when they die, or any other action in the game. Each Evocation could be as varied as the gods behind their power. The chance of Evocation should be incredibly, almost frustratingly low. Evocation should be quite rare and they should be an event when they occur. When a player Evokes the power of a god in game or on the battlefield it should make all players who are around them take notice and go “woah”.

The Pantheons
To support this system ZOS should add a new tab in the options menu for player to track their religious pursuits. This tab should be a physical representation of the Pantheons of Nirn and should indicate the following:

• For which gods shrines have been found.
• The blessing effect of each shrine.
• By which gods the player is currently blessed (and if those prayers are consecrated).
• The current blessing effects.
• The time left on the current blessings.
• Which pantheons the player is currently worshiping.

There could also be achievements added for finding and worshiping full pantheons and ZOS could add new dyes or even aura effects as rewards. A player finding and worshiping at all the Daedric shrines could be awarded with a subtle black cloud aura that could encompass the player. A player finding and worshiping all the divines could be enveloped in an aura of light. These auras could be placed in the costume slot in the equipment menu.

This would mean that ZOS would have to make some decisions about the relations of some off the gods. It is quite apparent that Stendarr is in the pantheon of the 8 divines, the Bretons, Altmer, Ayleid, Bosmer, Khajiit, and Imperial. It is not as readily apparent if Shor in the Nord Pantheon is Lorkhan in the Altmer Pantheon.

Since some gods, such as Mara and Hermaeus Mora, are present in multiple pantheons worshiping one pantheon isn’t as cut and dry as it may first seem. There should be benefits to being faithful and consequences of cross-pantheon worship.

Using the information on the pantheon chart on UESP (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Gods), there are 12 pantheons. UESP doesn’t separate the Divines and the Daedra out into their own Pantheons, but they should be.

Faithfulness, and Sacrilege
There should be no limit on how many of blessings a player receives or how many gods they worship. Players should be free to worship any number of Gods they wish, in any of the pantheons. This doesn’t mean, however, that worshiping gods from different pantheons shouldn’t have consequences.

When a player receives blessings from more than one god, the effectiveness and the length of time of the blessings should be impacted negatively or positively.

Faithfulness:benefits of worshiping gods in the same pantheon

• Every blessing in the pantheon receives a power buff (more for consecrated prayers)
• Every blessing in the pantheon receives a duration increase (more for consecrated prayers)
• Worshiping an entire pantheon could yield the player great benefits, consecrated or not.
• Extended worship of one god should also benefit the player. A player who worships one god for a long period of time should benefit greatly from that gods attention. Perhaps this benefit manifests in a greater chance of evocation, which would make sense. This could also accompany a cool-down period after a blessing wares off in which the player has a limited amount of time to pray to that god again to get the faithfulness benefit, otherwise the player receives no additional benefit from praying to that god again.

Sacrilege: consequences of worshiping gods in different pantheons

• Every blessing in both pantheons receives a significant power decrease (no impact on consecrated prayers)
• Every blessing in both pantheons receives a significant duration decrease (no impact on consecrated prayers)
• Some pantheons could have a curse that is bestowed upon the player if they are worshiping a different pantheon. Mostly the Daedric Princes would be the ones to curse the player for praying to a god of a different pantheon.
• Some gods could punish the player if they are not worshiped within the cool-down period. This would mean that a player could be cursed for nothing more than not continuing to worship a specific god. The gods who would act in such a way would have to have benefits that would be worth the possible punishments.

If a player seeks the blessings of all the gods in one pantheon, the chances of them receiving an Evocation should be considerably higher than if they do not seek additional gods within the same pantheon. The larger the pantheon, the greater the eventual chance of Evoking one of the gods in the pantheon.

This aspect of the mechanic would mean that worshiping cross-pantheon gods would be crucial to a strategic plan of worshiping as cross-pantheon gods would negate some of the negative benefits of worshiping completely unrelated gods.

ZOS could make this even more complicated by applying boons and curses upon players depending on the specific god they worship. This could help make some of the pantheons, such as the Daedric pantheon, more complicated. There are certain princes who wouldn’t take too kindly to other princes being worshiped as well as them.

Shrines of the Saints and Individual Gods
In addition to the shrines of the pantheon gods, Tamriel could also be host to shrines of the saints (Mannimarco) and individual gods (Anu, Sithis, The Hist) that do not belong to any specific pantheon. These would be individual blessings that could have their own sets of rules of faithfulness and sacrilege.

Perhaps the duration and potency of the blessings could be dependent on being faithful by praying continuously to that saint or individual God. There is one major difference between praying to a saint and praying to an individual God: prayers to saints cannot be consecrated whereas prayers to individual gods can be.

It would be up to the lore-keepers at ZOS to differentiate between Pantheon Gods, Individual Gods, and Saints.

Crown Store Additions
There could be a few additions that could be added to the Crown Store to benefit ZOS and Players with this kind of religion mechanic.

• Indulgence Writ: Consumable that clears worship from one god.
• Baptismal Waters: Consumable that clears all worship.
• Idols: Portable, consumable icons that allow players to pray on the go without returning to shrines. These could require “imprinting” at the shrine so ZOS would sell one item that could be imprinted with any god or saint.

Conclusion
This concept can seem rather convoluted but I think it is fitting that it be. The worshiping of gods can be a tricky aspect of life on Nirn and one must be careful not to incur the wrath or favor of the wrong deity.

Using the chart on UESP, it appears that there are about 50 different gods between all of the pantheons. Depending on the god or saint status of some of them, there may be a few more or a few less. Players who take the time to visit shrines, and especially those who sacrifice themselves by giving up CPs to consecrate their prayers should gain glorious benefits that players who worship irregularly or not at all do not receive. I do not believe there should be any benefits for NOT worshiping gods… aside from not falling prey to their whims.

Not all pantheons and gods and saints would need to be added at once. As ZOS releases more zones, the gods and saints of that zone could be added and eventually pantheons would fill out. This would make this concept one that grows with the game and isn't set in stone.

So, any thoughts, comments, suggestions, or Crown Store ideas for this sort of mechanic?

Zorrashi

Did...did you just suggest letting Akatosh turn you into a dragon? As in, a big, fire-breathing beast? Flying in the skies, may make Cyrodil lag, dragon?

Sausage

Id love to see if they added Religions, I think they are big part of ESO's kind of Fantasy, there must be alot of believers in Tamriel. I think every zone should have some Religion meter and players would go there to spread their Religion etc. Nice little non-combat activity to do sometimes. Or then players need to search for an items or craft items to please or make sacrifice for their god.

Gidorick

@Sausage I would hope there would also be quests that include the reward of blessings from a particular god.

The idea of regional influences of gods is really interesting. That would be awesome!

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Its a concept I can agree with, my Dunmer who follows the 3 for one is sick and tired of having to donate to the false Imperial pantheon to change his attributes.

Gidorick

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Its a concept I can agree with, my Dunmer who follows the 3 for one is sick and tired of having to donate to the false Imperial pantheon to change his attributes.

As one who follows the three @TX12001rwb17_ESO... how do you feel about Nerevar and Dagoth Ur? Should they be included in the Dunmer Pantheon? If not, would Dagoth Ur and Nerevar to be saints?

WhiteCoatSyndrome

I'd like to be able to sacrifice things other than/in addition to Champion Points. Gold and goods are the most obvious; it'd provide a sink for things like Fish...maybe rare items (purple/gold quality) give a buff comparable to sacrificing a CP while cheap items do nothing more than stave off the god's wrath when the buff expires. Maybe an exchange rate like so:

Gold item - blessing comparable to a CP
Purple item - 50% blessing compared to a CP
Blue item - 25% blessing compared to a CP
Green item - 5% blessing compared to a CP
White item - 1% blessing compared to a CP

And make it so you can sacrifice more than one item at a time. So my main could sacrifice a single Tempering Alloy for a big buff, or a stack of 100 Lockpicks for the same buff, or take a purple dagger and a pair of Embroideries, or whatever combination. This would give usefulness to things like Jejota runes or blue/purple trash items that are currently only good for decon. I also want to submit for consideration the idea that set pieces should be worth +1 category up to the max (so a green set piece would be worth as much as a blue item) though that might need some tweaking. (Four green pieces of Homespun Ashen Grip = ~20ish? Jute and 8 green tempers...maybe tweak the numbers; I think a it would be reasonable to have a nine-trait set like Twice Born be 'worth' more as a sacrifice than a two-trait set that takes at most a few days to research for. Dropped sets I would put at the higher end of the scale, since they're RNG based and that way non-crafters won't feel 'forced' to craft.) Since this is literally a sacrifice to the gods we should also be able to sacrifice bound items.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Gidorick wrote: »

show previous quotes

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Its a concept I can agree with, my Dunmer who follows the 3 for one is sick and tired of having to donate to the false Imperial pantheon to change his attributes.

As one who follows the three @TX12001rwb17_ESO... how do you feel about Nerevar and Dagoth Ur? Should they be included in the Dunmer Pantheon? If not, would Dagoth Ur and Nerevar to be saints?

Well Nerevar already is a saint last I checked so yes he could, Dagoth ur however could be a deity one particularly malicious character could pray to and that is whether the common folk now of his existence as a deity, it would serve well for a more darker religious following in any vvardenfell related content.

Alucardo

Sounds like a roleplayers wet dream. I see nothing wrong with this suggestion, and as always, very thoroughly detailed.

Gidorick

Zorrashi wrote: »

Did...did you just suggest letting Akatosh turn you into a dragon? As in, a big, fire-breathing beast? Flying in the skies, may make Cyrodil lag, dragon?

Why yes... yes I did.

Gidorick

I could get behind a tithe system that allows players to "sacrifice" loot in exchange for blessings. I like the idea that certain gods like certain "burnt offerings"...

nimander99

Yeah some of the more 'religious' aspects of the game seem to have been traded off for a more politically correct 'soul-less' character as opposed too the other games where you were Nerevar Reborn a figure of religious significance in the Tribunal Temple or the role you filled in the Knights of the Nine quest in Oblivion... even the Dragonborn was of religious significance to the Nord's in Skyrim. In ESO we are more of a anti-religious character if anything.

To sum up, it would be nice to, at the bare minimum start hearing npc's saying things like "By the Eight!" etc. As usual your ideas are great and seem to scratch an ich I didn't really realize was missing till you said something, gj Gid

tinythinker

Gidorick wrote: »

So, any thoughts, comments, suggestions, or Crown Store ideas for this sort of mechanic?

I will offer more substantial feedback/suggestions later, but first a few initial reactions:

Could this incorporate devotional skill lines or would that be too complicated? If not, your idea still sounds intriguing.

I am assuming that this system wouldn't interfere with other system involving gods, but, the one issue with any devotional mechanic is the fact the player does run up against gods with some frequency, often as the bad guy behind the trouble in a particular village or even a whole zone. If the system includes Daedric Princes, this could create a bit of awkwardness...

Spoiler

Oh mighty Vaermina, I just screwed you over at the Skaal retreat in The Rift and again in your schemes effecting all of Stormhaven. Your humble servant apologizes.

Hey Mephala, sorry about those delves where I slew your fellow servants and spoiled your schemes.

Mighty Hircine, I hope it isn't a bother that I prevented your corruption of the Wood Elves.

Yo, Namira, you ain't still I messed of your plans at Xal Ithix are you?

Etc.

Princes like Hircine and Mephala would likely be no problem. Hircine would see the Hound as weak and deserving of his fate at the hands of you, the superior hunter. Mephala would probably love the complications you add to the schemes of her followers, finding it amusing. But Princes like Vaermina and Namira are clearly pissed at you and are waiting for a chance at revenge.

I mean, you could ignore the inconsistencies along with others (like how vampire hunter NPCs never seem to notice you are a vampire, etc), but it would still be a little awkward. Plus, Molag Bal would seem to be off the table period for obvious reasons.

tinythinker

Alucardo wrote: »

Sounds like a roleplayers wet dream. I see nothing wrong with this suggestion, and as always, very thoroughly detailed.

Yeah, I have even said many times that I think there should major updates for all types of players: solo PvE, group PvE, PvP, even RP. But now I guess when I say it in the future I can link to this thread as a good example of what an "RP" update might look like.

Gidorick

nimander99 wrote: »

As usual your ideas are great and seem to scratch an ich I didn't really realize was missing till you said something, gj Gid

LOL. I'm sorry @nimander99! I'm itchin' all over! I didn't mean to spread the discomfort.

dang... I actually have an itch now

Gidorick

tinythinker wrote: »

show previous quotes

Gidorick wrote: »

So, any thoughts, comments, suggestions, or Crown Store ideas for this sort of mechanic?

I will offer more substantial feedback/suggestions later, but first a few initial reactions:

Could this incorporate devotional skill lines or would that be too complicated? If not, your idea still sounds intriguing.

I am assuming that this system wouldn't interfere with other system involving gods, but, the one issue with any devotional mechanic is the fact the player does run up against gods with some frequency, often as the bad guy behind the trouble in a particular village or even a whole zone. If the system includes Daedric Princes, this could create a bit of awkwardness...

Spoiler

Oh mighty Vaermina, I just screwed you over at the Skaal retreat in The Rift and again in your schemes effecting all of Stormhaven. Your humble servant apologizes.

Hey Mephala, sorry about those delves where I slew your fellow servants and spoiled your schemes.

Mighty Hircine, I hope it isn't a bother that I prevented your corruption of the Wood Elves.

Yo, Namira, you ain't still I messed of your plans at Xal Ithix are you?

Etc.

Princes like Hircine and Mephala would likely be no problem. Hircine would see the Hound as weak and deserving of his fate at the hands of you, the superior hunter. Mephala would probably love the complications you add to the schemes of her followers, finding it amusing. But Princes like Vaermina and Namira are clearly pissed at you and are waiting for a chance at revenge.

I mean, you could ignore the inconsistencies along with others (like how vampire hunter NPCs never seem to notice you are a vampire, etc), but it would still be a little awkward. Plus, Molag Bal would seem to be off the table period for obvious reasons.

I have read quite a few ideas for skill lines involving deities over the past year @tinythinker and considering those concepts is what lead me to the above suggestion. I don't care for the idea of being able to call upon a god's power and that god just performing the task like a trained pup. I also think players should be able to worship any god they wish and should be able to change who they worship. Both of these things would be apparent with skill lines.

Also, Aedric and Daedric skill lines do very little to cover the diverse gods. Would ZOS add like 12 new skill lines for players for each pantheon. A Khajiit shouldn't HAVE to choose between aedra and daedra. Same for Dunmer and Redguards.

as for incorporating diseases and curses... YES!!! I would LOVE it if you were worshiping Dagoth Ur... then you stop... and the consequence is you catch Corprus. heheh. so evil.

tinythinker

Gidorick wrote: »

show previous quotes

tinythinker wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

So, any thoughts, comments, suggestions, or Crown Store ideas for this sort of mechanic?

I will offer more substantial feedback/suggestions later, but first a few initial reactions:

Could this incorporate devotional skill lines or would that be too complicated? If not, your idea still sounds intriguing.

I am assuming that this system wouldn't interfere with other system involving gods, but, the one issue with any devotional mechanic is the fact the player does run up against gods with some frequency, often as the bad guy behind the trouble in a particular village or even a whole zone. If the system includes Daedric Princes, this could create a bit of awkwardness...

Spoiler

Oh mighty Vaermina, I just screwed you over at the Skaal retreat in The Rift and again in your schemes effecting all of Stormhaven. Your humble servant apologizes.

Hey Mephala, sorry about those delves where I slew your fellow servants and spoiled your schemes.

Mighty Hircine, I hope it isn't a bother that I prevented your corruption of the Wood Elves.

Yo, Namira, you ain't still I messed of your plans at Xal Ithix are you?

Etc.

Princes like Hircine and Mephala would likely be no problem. Hircine would see the Hound as weak and deserving of his fate at the hands of you, the superior hunter. Mephala would probably love the complications you add to the schemes of her followers, finding it amusing. But Princes like Vaermina and Namira are clearly pissed at you and are waiting for a chance at revenge.

I mean, you could ignore the inconsistencies along with others (like how vampire hunter NPCs never seem to notice you are a vampire, etc), but it would still be a little awkward. Plus, Molag Bal would seem to be off the table period for obvious reasons.

I have read quite a few ideas for skill lines involving deities over the past year @tinythinker and considering those concepts is what lead me to the above suggestion. I don't care for the idea of being able to call upon a god's power and that god just performing the task like a trained pup. I also think players should be able to worship any god they wish and should be able to change who they worship. Both of these things would be apparent with skill lines.

Also, Aedric and Daedric skill lines do very little to cover the diverse gods. Would ZOS add like 12 new skill lines for players for each pantheon. A Khajiit shouldn't HAVE to choose between aedra and daedra. Same for Dunmer and Redguards.

as for incorporating diseases and curses... YES!!! I would LOVE it if you were worshiping Dagoth Ur... then you stop... and the consequence is you catch Corprus. heheh. so evil.

I don't think skill lines are necessary, just wasn't sure how you were thinking of the mechanics from a UI perspective. What about the conflicts with the quests/zone storylines? Is that a "just ignore the incongruity" kind of thing or should it be worked into your system?

Gidorick

tinythinker wrote: »

show previous quotes

Gidorick wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

So, any thoughts, comments, suggestions, or Crown Store ideas for this sort of mechanic?

I will offer more substantial feedback/suggestions later, but first a few initial reactions:

Could this incorporate devotional skill lines or would that be too complicated? If not, your idea still sounds intriguing.

I am assuming that this system wouldn't interfere with other system involving gods, but, the one issue with any devotional mechanic is the fact the player does run up against gods with some frequency, often as the bad guy behind the trouble in a particular village or even a whole zone. If the system includes Daedric Princes, this could create a bit of awkwardness...

Spoiler

Oh mighty Vaermina, I just screwed you over at the Skaal retreat in The Rift and again in your schemes effecting all of Stormhaven. Your humble servant apologizes.

Hey Mephala, sorry about those delves where I slew your fellow servants and spoiled your schemes.

Mighty Hircine, I hope it isn't a bother that I prevented your corruption of the Wood Elves.

Yo, Namira, you ain't still I messed of your plans at Xal Ithix are you?

Etc.

Princes like Hircine and Mephala would likely be no problem. Hircine would see the Hound as weak and deserving of his fate at the hands of you, the superior hunter. Mephala would probably love the complications you add to the schemes of her followers, finding it amusing. But Princes like Vaermina and Namira are clearly pissed at you and are waiting for a chance at revenge.

I mean, you could ignore the inconsistencies along with others (like how vampire hunter NPCs never seem to notice you are a vampire, etc), but it would still be a little awkward. Plus, Molag Bal would seem to be off the table period for obvious reasons.

I have read quite a few ideas for skill lines involving deities over the past year @tinythinker and considering those concepts is what lead me to the above suggestion. I don't care for the idea of being able to call upon a god's power and that god just performing the task like a trained pup. I also think players should be able to worship any god they wish and should be able to change who they worship. Both of these things would be apparent with skill lines.

Also, Aedric and Daedric skill lines do very little to cover the diverse gods. Would ZOS add like 12 new skill lines for players for each pantheon. A Khajiit shouldn't HAVE to choose between aedra and daedra. Same for Dunmer and Redguards.

as for incorporating diseases and curses... YES!!! I would LOVE it if you were worshiping Dagoth Ur... then you stop... and the consequence is you catch Corprus. heheh. so evil.

I don't think skill lines are necessary, just wasn't sure how you were thinking of the mechanics from a UI perspective. What about the conflicts with the quests/zone storylines? Is that a "just ignore the incongruity" kind of thing or should it be worked into your system?

I would ABSOUTLEY LOVE it if ESO paid attention to things like race, religion, sex, etc. @tinythinker. I could see quests lines that require you to be at a particular "faith level". Or maybe towns or inns in which you aren't welcome if you worship this god or are a vampire or an argonian. I've never been one to say "I want bigotry!" but in ESO... I really do.

As for the UI... I tinkered around with a few concepts for this thread but they all looked like crap... mostly because I'm not an artist. Most of my screenshots on here involve "cutting/paste" kind of art.

Mostly the tracking of worship would be in a tab in the option menu... kind of like how the champion system added a new tab.

TheShadowScout

First off - there is one huge thing somewhat missing in this wonderfully detailed and generally well considered system. Something I really, really would like to see - an option for our characters to declare for one god to follow.

While I like the idea of the benefits of worship coming from praying at temples/shrines in form of a temporary blessing, I also really want a possibility for characters to choose one power to worship, where they get increased blessings from -their- diety, and perhaps even some added benefits (yes, I am talking about a small passives skill line - after all, following a diety big on healing should give access to a bit of healing enhancing passives, following a diety big on thieving should give a bit of thievery boost, that sort of thing), while preventing them from ever accepting blessings from "strange gods"...

Also, as I have mentioned in other places when the notion came up, I think diety worship should be exclusive with each other (duh) and with werewolf (which in a very big way is already following hircine after all) and vampire (which kinda is swearing foff both aedra and deadra, as you learn in the entry quest there).

Gidorick wrote: »

Shrines and Temples

Completely agree with all that. Shrines and temples should be used to set the theme of a region, so temples to the "official" religion (eight divines by any name in many places, tribunal in dunmer lands, hist in argonian lands, malacath/trinimac in ord lands, etc.) should be prominent in cities, while shrines to other dieties (like deadric princes) should be well hidden in some corner of the hinterlands...

Further pusruing my notion of delcaring for one diety to follow, that would have to be done at their temple or shrine... which means it would be easy to declare for a well known diety (just walk into the temple and do it), but if you wanted to worship some other, you'd first have to find their shrine...

Gidorick wrote: »

Prayer and Consecration

Prayers for a temporary blessing? YES, good idea!

Consecreation for c-points? No, bad idea. Especially since it would lead to different alts having different c-point values, so much can go wrong there...

I'd much rather add a new constellation to the champion system that is not part of the warrior-mage-thief system, but beside it, and offers permanent boni to religious system for any character that spends their c-points there. From longer blessing duration to increased blessing effects, whatever.

Gidorick wrote: »

Blessings & Evocation

Personally I don't think blessings should stack - ever. Not unless they let me stack food buffs as well...
Better have the blessings be a bit more effective on their own then let them stack for more effect.

But different shrines definitely ought to offer different benefits, matching the dieties portfolio. Only if two dieties have a similar portfolio might the blessings be similar (like, say, both arkay and meridia hate undead, could be some overlap in anti-undead blessings there...)
Some blessings could be extra-special... like, say, the blessing of sheogorath has a random effect, maybe helpful, maybe useless, perhaps even slightly hindering (it'd be like... a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get. )

Evocations... hmmm... depends. Considering the wide range of examples, some of which seem way over the top (dragon?? Really? Like in, stuff you usually need a dragonborn to sacrifice himself for to stop a deadric prince in manifestation form??? Not bloody likely to drop for a mere prayer, no matter how good a roll...), I don't think this should ever happen just by praying at some shrine.
Now, for a "event happening while blessing is active" on the other hand... that seems way more viable. Even though the effects need balancing, so akatosh might lend a touch of draconic power, but no dragon transformations, hear? I'd further like to see it limited to "follower under influence of chosen dieties blessing" - gods don't usually drop special power on random strangers without a very good (storyline-driven) reason...

Gidorick wrote: »

The Pantheons

Sounds a bit too complicated, the new tab thing. As well as making the system too complex.

While finding all the different shrines sounds nifty (yay, achievement!), all dedicated worship should be exclusive. If your character picks a diety to follow, they should get one god as your "favored" diety... get extra blessings from your favorite god, and normal blessings from all the "allied" gods in the pantheon, but none from "opposing" gods or any other pantheons - that would be more like sacrilege, wouldn't it? I mean, most religions are not too keen on their followers visiting strange gods... people have been burned or stoned for less throughout history!
That would be the "price" for the added benefits of following one religion... whereas other characters may not declare for any one god, and thus could pray to every god, but would not get access to all the extra benefits the "devout" ones might (passives line, increased blessing effect...)
Choices. They should mean something.

Also, not all pantheons should be equal. Some dieties should give stronger blessings, and/or have more "allied" gods... while others may simply be less powerful, or less interested in sharing their power with their followers.
Those who choose a wide pantheon (any of the divines, generally) may have a good selection of different blessings for any occasion. Those who choose a limited pantheon (which would be more on the daedric side) will have much less flexibility, but might recieve stronger blessings (which might fit with the lore, as it is said the aedra diminished with spending so much of their power to create nirn, while the daedra did not...)

Not all power ought to come from bessings either. Some pantheons may have other benefits... for example, the tribunal may seem lacking in divine power compared to the "true gods", but becoming a follower of that "pantheon" would have social advantages in dunmer lands... perhaps better prices at vendors, less bounty if caught by the guard, possibly even some special options here or there... stuff like that...

Gidorick wrote: »

Faithfulness, and Sacrilege

Players should -not- be free to worship whoever just like that.

Here is where my "pick one god" idea comes in again... if you do -not- pick one god to follow, then yes, that character should be able to pray at any srine, and recieve any blessing.

As mentioned above, those who do pick one, should get a small skill line with some passives matching the dieties theme, and recieve an extra strong blessing from their favored diety, but could only recieve other blessings from "allied" dieties, none from any other gods (like, worship one divine, call on the others too, but forget about any of the deadra... worship mephala, call on the other two "good deadra" as well, but none of the house of troubles or the divines... worship the tribunal, no divines and deadra whatsoever, etc.)
The "evocvation" idea above would be limited to followers under influence of "their" blessing then, which sounds pretty good to me. Make people -choose- if they want a chance at "divine intervention".

As for sacrilege... yes, there should be "taboo" stuff for people who choose to follow one diety. I would not merely limit it to trying to pray to strange gods though... a follower of Stendarr should face consequences if doing injust things (stealing, morder, etc). A follower of nocturne might face displeasure for letting themselves get caught at thievery on the other hand... stuff like that.

Gidorick wrote: »

Shrines of the Saints and Individual Gods

Mannimarco is a baddie at this timeframe, not a saint try "Veloth" instead
But I don't think saints should offer any blessing. Some might be around enough to offer spectral advice, but they are not supposed to have the power to do much except maybe some very specific things (like veloth helping with facing his very own weapon wielded by magistrate vox...) in very rare circumstances.

Individual gods on the other hand - just treat them as "pantheon of one"

Gidorick wrote: »

Crown Store Additions

Sounds way more like stuff that ought to be sold by priests for gold... go to temple, buy idol of -divine name- to pray to for blessing in their field... go to temple, pay gold to change your worship flavor...
But of course, like the other consumables, there could be crown store versions I suppose.

Again following my idea, there could be consumables to delcare for any god without first having to track down their shrine, much like selling crown store vampy/ww bites...

And once they have a barbershop feature, there could also be packs for faith-specific adornments... jewlery, tatoos, facepaint, whatever. (Of course, wearing those of a different religion then the one you follow might be a sacriledge... unless you happen to follow one that enjoys such deception of course!)

I do wonder if the game might allow a special costume that changes color according to worship... buy the thing, wear it, and it will take on the colors/symbols of the diety your character worships... eh, neat idea, but probably too much effort to code I suppose...
But faith-based costumes like the trinimac mask you get as quest reward in wrothgar might be a neat thing.

Hiero_Glyph

So I think that this is a terrific idea but it may be too much in terms of scope for ZOS. So how do we shrink the concept and make it integrate with what we know ZOS is already working on? The answer is...

Player Housing.

So what if each player home had an idol that could be placed within that dedicated that character to a specific divinity. These divinities could start with the Nine Divine (or the Eight and One) and then expand to things like Aedra and Daedra, etc.

Each idol dedicates your character to a specific divinity and grants them a small passive bonus. Over time ZOS could expand these to full skill lines but they should start small at first. Additionally, ZOS could make these passives a timed buff so that the act of praying/worship is what grants this bonus similar to how it works specific story missions (which negates the need for creating a skill line initially). Offerings could also be used as a gold sink to increase the duration of this buff. A player could choose between a free buff (1 hour), a small offering (4 hours), a large offering (24 hours), etc.

We all know that ZOS has limited time to work on new concepts so I feel that adding religion in this manner would make it doable without requiring too much work, at least initially. Let me know if you think this could work.

Alucardo

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

Player Housing.

Actually thinking about it, player housing could be really well integrated with the religion idea. I'd imagine secret passages or underground trapdoors in houses to shrines, where people could receive blessings and such.
Also, while spending time in your house, you could be visited by fanatic assassins from opposing religions that attempt your life. Upon killing them they drop some useful items.
Pretty much a lot you could do with these two systems.

tinythinker

I think picking one God (as per @TheShadowScout ) is problematic if you venerate all eight divines or The Three. Maybe you could have something for choosing a certain pantheon and then something else for a specific member.

As for RP things like housing that fit with the religion idea, why not a character sheet others can see when they interact with you where you can write a summary of your character?

Taleof2Cities

Great discussion, OP.

Another possible idea to add to the "sacrilege" section are reactionary NPC tables based on pantheon membership of NPCs versus the player character.

You might recall that Morrowind did an excellent job of shaping the player character's world ... after certain choices were made by the player in joining religious affiliations or guilds. UESP is again excellent in covering this area thoroughly in its "Morrowind: Factions" section.

ESO does have a handful of quests where NPCs will improve (or disfavor) disposition towards the player ... based on progression of the specific quest. However, there aren't really any far-reaching consequences of a character's choice to worship or shun a god (and NPC followers of said god).

But in Morrowind, you might not even be given merchant services based on your religious affiliation or membership. You might even be attacked on sight if you were a known member of another religious group. What if this was a consequence in ESO, too?

Back to ESO -- Would a high ranking member of the Mages Guild be treated well in the Mournhold Temple? I've had two main characters pass through Mournhold with the rank of Arch-Mage. Would it take a couple of extra quests before Almalexia feels comfortable that the Arch-Mage does not impose a threat to the Tribunal Temple and Dunmeri way of life? Would she then proceed with the regular quest line?

What if an ESO player character was dressed in full Imperial armor (my DK is sporting a full set of Imperial heavy at the moment) ... but was doing quests or seeking services in Southern Bangkorai where Imperial control is a local hot button issue?

These are just ideas of things that could happen based on "sacrilege" player choices in earlier quests ... and as you noted, possibly enrich the world of Tamriel around them. Right now the favorable (or unfavorable) consequences are confined to the specific quest only.

MrDerrikk

Alucardo wrote: »

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Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

Player Housing.

Actually thinking about it, player housing could be really well integrated with the religion idea. I'd imagine secret passages or underground trapdoors in houses to shrines, where people could receive blessings and such.
Also, while spending time in your house, you could be visited by fanatic assassins from opposing religions that attempt your life. Upon killing them they drop some useful items.
Pretty much a lot you could do with these two systems.

I can see this being just like the Hearthfire expansion of Skyrim (except that just had Skeevers breaking into your basement to try and eat you)

TheShadowScout

tinythinker wrote: »

I think picking one God (as per @TheShadowScout ) is problematic if you venerate all eight divines or The Three. Maybe you could have something for choosing a certain pantheon and then something else for a specific member.

There is ample precedent... even with multi-god religions, people often have chosen one of the partheon to follow. The ancient romans had several gods, but many among them picked one of those gods as personal or "household" diety, usually one most relevant to their lives. So a trader might pick a god of commerce, a warrior a god of war, a scholar a god of wisdom, whatever.
Same for ESO.
The town healer may venerate all eight divines, but pays special attention to mara, due to all that goddess of love (and healing) stuff. The dunmer mage may follow all the tribunal, but most especially Sothra Sil. The nord warrior may visit the shrines of all the nord pantheon, but keep a holy symbol of Kyne with him to pray to between battles. Et cetera.

That is why I go with the two choices in my idea - pick noone and pray for each as needed, be it arkay today, azura tomorrow and sithis the day after; or pick one, get extra bonus from that god, pray to others in the same pantheon for normal bonus, but no worshipping outside the pantheon.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

too ba the

Gidorick wrote: »

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tinythinker wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

So, any thoughts, comments, suggestions, or Crown Store ideas for this sort of mechanic?

I will offer more substantial feedback/suggestions later, but first a few initial reactions:

Could this incorporate devotional skill lines or would that be too complicated? If not, your idea still sounds intriguing.

I am assuming that this system wouldn't interfere with other system involving gods, but, the one issue with any devotional mechanic is the fact the player does run up against gods with some frequency, often as the bad guy behind the trouble in a particular village or even a whole zone. If the system includes Daedric Princes, this could create a bit of awkwardness...

Spoiler

Oh mighty Vaermina, I just screwed you over at the Skaal retreat in The Rift and again in your schemes effecting all of Stormhaven. Your humble servant apologizes.

Hey Mephala, sorry about those delves where I slew your fellow servants and spoiled your schemes.

Mighty Hircine, I hope it isn't a bother that I prevented your corruption of the Wood Elves.

Yo, Namira, you ain't still I messed of your plans at Xal Ithix are you?

Etc.

Princes like Hircine and Mephala would likely be no problem. Hircine would see the Hound as weak and deserving of his fate at the hands of you, the superior hunter. Mephala would probably love the complications you add to the schemes of her followers, finding it amusing. But Princes like Vaermina and Namira are clearly pissed at you and are waiting for a chance at revenge.

I mean, you could ignore the inconsistencies along with others (like how vampire hunter NPCs never seem to notice you are a vampire, etc), but it would still be a little awkward. Plus, Molag Bal would seem to be off the table period for obvious reasons.

I have read quite a few ideas for skill lines involving deities over the past year @tinythinker and considering those concepts is what lead me to the above suggestion. I don't care for the idea of being able to call upon a god's power and that god just performing the task like a trained pup. I also think players should be able to worship any god they wish and should be able to change who they worship. Both of these things would be apparent with skill lines.

Also, Aedric and Daedric skill lines do very little to cover the diverse gods. Would ZOS add like 12 new skill lines for players for each pantheon. A Khajiit shouldn't HAVE to choose between aedra and daedra. Same for Dunmer and Redguards.

as for incorporating diseases and curses... YES!!! I would LOVE it if you were worshiping Dagoth Ur... then you stop... and the consequence is you catch Corprus. heheh. so evil.

To bad corprus really wouldn't effect the vestige as it effects the users flesh and the vestige is made of azure plasm and could just reform a new body to get rid of it.

Artheiron

they should release high hrothgar dlc and sell shouts via crown store.

nimander99

Gidorick wrote: »

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nimander99 wrote: »

As usual your ideas are great and seem to scratch an ich I didn't really realize was missing till you said something, gj Gid

LOL. I'm sorry @nimander99! I'm itchin' all over! I didn't mean to spread the discomfort.

dang... I actually have an itch now

I meant that in a good way though, like a 'I knew there was sumpin wrong but kudn't put meh finger on it'

tinythinker

Before writing anything else, props to Gidorick for writing this idea up. Many of us took half-hearted stabs at this going back to in-game feedback during beta testing, but this thread is a really great kickstarter for the "please add religion" discussion.



Aaaand now I am going to pull his post/idea apart and tinker with the innards.

Gidorick wrote: »

The Pantheons
To support this system ZOS should add a new tab in the options menu for player to track their religious pursuits. This tab should be a physical representation of the Pantheons of Nirn and should indicate the following:

• For which gods shrines have been found.
• The blessing effect of each shrine.
• By which gods the player is currently blessed (and if those prayers are consecrated).
• The current blessing effects.
• The time left on the current blessings.
• Which pantheons the player is currently worshiping.

There could also be achievements added for finding and worshiping full pantheons and ZOS could add new dyes or even aura effects as rewards. A player finding and worshiping at all the Daedric shrines could be awarded with a subtle black cloud aura that could encompass the player. A player finding and worshiping all the divines could be enveloped in an aura of light. These auras could be placed in the costume slot in the equipment menu.

This would mean that ZOS would have to make some decisions about the relations of some off the gods. It is quite apparent that Stendarr is in the pantheon of the 8 divines, the Bretons, Altmer, Ayleid, Bosmer, Khajiit, and Imperial. It is not as readily apparent if Shor in the Nord Pantheon is Lorkhan in the Altmer Pantheon.

Since some gods, such as Mara and Hermaeus Mora, are present in multiple pantheons worshiping one pantheon isn’t as cut and dry as it may first seem. There should be benefits to being faithful and consequences of cross-pantheon worship.

Using the information on the pantheon chart on UESP (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Gods), there are 12 pantheons. UESP doesn’t separate the Divines and the Daedra out into their own Pantheons, but they should be.

My reply:

Spoiler

Some of this needs simplified and can be fit within the UI structure already in place
- Put the "shrines found" part in the Achievements section. Maybe add a title and dye for finding them all as mentioned.
- Let people figure out, remember, or use Google to know what blessing go with what.
- Put the active blessing effects/time remaining in the character stats tab with other effects.

As for the rest, it depends on whether there is any kind of progression system.

With a progression and/or standardization system:

Do keep a religion tab/screen. If you have a home shrine, clicking here to choose a pantheon/preferred deity will determine the style/appearance. See just below for more. Also, there can be a progression chart/map/display in the screen for effort-sink like feeding mounts or spending champion points. These would have effects like increasing the chances for special blessings, for getting favorable treatment from like-minded followers, etc. Nothing OP but rather focused on role-play flavor, so that people who are into this kind of immersion can go nut with it and those who don't give a flying donkey turd can completely ignore it.

As for pantheons, they need to be dumbed down for such a system. Yes, there are lots of cool interlocking and movable parts to the religion lore in the Elder Scrolls, but, the system requires some standardization for an MMO if there is going to be any kind of special focus/progression mechanic. The "pray to as many gods as you like" approach may allow for more diversity but also introduces problems with logical conflicts between rival deities and hampers any kind of cumulative progression (see exceptions later in this comment). Also, because the player is directly in conflict with some deities in the storylines, particularly Molag Bal, Vaermina, and Namira, choices have to be made about which gods are involved and how. Even some deities that you are not fighting against might be awkward to personally worship given the stories/plot lines to which your character is bound.

Here is an example of a simplified/standardized pantheon system:

[The Eight]
[_] Akatosh/Auri-El
[_] Arkay
[_] Dibella
[_] Julianos
[_] Kynareth/Kyne
[_] Mara
[_] Stendarr/S'renndar
[_] Zenithar/Z'en

[The Tribunal]
[_] Almalexia
[_] Sotha Sil
[_] Vivec

[Ashlander]
[_] Boethia
[_] Mephala
[_] Azura

[Orsimer]
[_] Malacath or [_] Trinimac

[Khajiit/Bosmer]
[_] Jone
[_] Jode
[_] Baan Dar
[_] Yffre

[Yokudan]
[_] Satakal
[_] Ruptga
[_] Tu'whacca
[_] Zeht
[_] Morwha
[_] Tava
[_] Malooc
[_] Diagna
[_] Sep
[_] Hoonding
[_] Leki
[_] Onsi

If you build a home shrine, this could pop up during construction. You would select your preferred pantheon, and an altar with a unique style for that pantheon would appear. After constructing your shrine (which might require crafting skills, maybe woodworking, and if you don't have it you have to buy stuff from a player or NPC crafter), when you clicked on your home shrine, the "religion" screen would appear, showing whatever information would be relevant. The relevant members of your chosen pantheon would appear as well, and you could click on one to be your focus of devotion, further altering the appearance of the shrine.

This is for your *home* shrine your *preferred pantheon*. This *does not* preclude using other shrines/temples outside of your home. Of course, doing so may cause problems if the deity of the shrine you visit is in conflict with your home pantheon. Or not. It depends on how immersive/involved ZOS would want to get with the system.

And yes, Altmer as a people may also recognize a god like Yffre, and so on and so on, there is always cultural diffusion, so you could be an Altmer who has a home shrine to The Eight and visit a shrine of Yffre or, if Yffre was really your thing, you could choose the Khajiit/Bosmer shrine. I am sure that the Argonians living in the Gay Mire of Grahtwood, for instance, or at least Uta-Tei, would have chosen the Khajiit/Bosmer shrine.

And what of the gods left out?

Well, for Argonians, there isn't much in their native culture that is explicitly or overtly religious. They are a spiritual people, but Sithis neither needs nor wants big temples or fancy shrines and the saxhleel relationship with the Hist involves direct communion via touch. Sure, you could bring up Lorkhan or Daedric Princes other than Malacath or the Three Good Daedra, but these are not really part of pantheons. In fact, you could take the Three Good Daedra off the list as well as not being an actual pantheon if you wish. Daedric Princes tend to force their followers to build shrines outside of settled/civilized areas, or have them hidden in secret locations within cities.

This actually helps with potential complications. Following Daedric Princes could be separate from regular religious observations. They are much more fickle and opportunistic, and the player is often at odds with them. For Daedric veneration you would have to seek out their hidden shrines and undergo an initiation. I have posted elsewhere an idea about bringing back classic Elder Scrolls diseases and then added an option to have them be part of a system where you could receive a blessing from Peryite. Similar ideas could be added for other Princes. You could still have a progression/advancement system but without a home shrine to use, or you could add home shrines for Princes, or you could not have advancement for following Princes.

Given how the Princes interact with the storyline, I lean toward no home shrines/no advancement. Instead, I recommend initiation + daily quests for the dark gods. Get buffs and material rewards for your efforts. The system for werewolves/Hircine could be slightly expanded y having a quest-giver at Hircine's shrine. My idea for Peryite could neatly fit into this type of system with some slight alterations/additions. Other Princes would have their own shrines, initiations, and dailies as well. Thus, just because *you* see yourself as a faithful follower of a Prince doesn't mean they necessarily care, it's more of a matter of "What have you done for me lately, mortal?" And this also lessens the tension/incongruity of fouling up a Prince's plans as you quest along. You could still have cool interactions with various NPCs who follow/oppose whichever Princes you've initiated with even without an progression/advancement system.


Without a progression and/or standardization system:

Just make it all like I suggested for the Daedric Princes. Simple. Find a shrine at a temple, initiate, do quests, receive rewards and blessings. For non-Daedra have an option to make a temple/shrine donation for a temporary buff. Quests could include giving alms (to all those people in towns who keep asking for help but there is no option to do it) or collecting items or defeating bad guys, pretty much like the dailies they came out with for the Orsinium DLC, which would help give old zones and delves more replayability. Now of course you could also have these things at non-Prince temples/shrines even with the advancement system/home shrines, but, the initiation+dailies system works just as well without such elaboration.

Gidorick wrote: »

Shrines and Temples
There are multiple locations already throughout ESO’s Tamriel that contain shrines for various deities. This concept would see a wide variety of shrines added to the game. Temples of the Eight should contain all eight shrines, one for each of the divines. Different cities in different regions already have temples that are dedicated to local deities. The temple of the Tribunal and shrines in Mounhold could be a location for worship of the Tibunal gods. Shrines of Malacath in Wrothgar could be used as well. As ZOS releases more DLC and opens more areas, more shrines could be opened to players of ESO.

Players should also find shrines outside of cities that would allow them to practice their worship. Random shrines could be found in the wilderness, in dungeons, in NPC homes, or even randomly spawned. Hist trees could even serve as shrines in Argonian territories.

Shrines don’t have to be organized or follow any particular rules about quantity or variety. There could be certain shrines that are only found in one location in all of Tamriel, while others could be found in every zone.

Once player housing is added to the game, players should be able to purchase, or craft, shrines for their personal use. Some players could even choose to use their Player Home to act as a sort of church for their favorite god or pantheon.

It is also important that each Pantheon include shrines to reset skill and attribute points. This has already begun to occur in ESO with shrines to Akatosh and shrines to Kyne both allowing for attribute redistribution.

My reply:

Spoiler

Well, I covered a system for public, hidden, and personal/home shrines above, so there's not much to add here. You should be able to find shrines to all game-functional gods in the zones that come with the base game, but, there should be extra options for those who buy DLC. Like, there should be something cool for followers of The Eight in the Imperial City, including one or two special dailies at least.

Gidorick wrote: »

Prayer and Consecration
Worshiping in Tamriel couldn’t be easier! Players simply must pray at the shrine of any of the gods. Prayers will be heard by the gods and will be awarded with the appropriate blessing for a period of time. This blessing could pass in real time or be suspended while the player is logged off. This decision would have a significant impact on the duration of the blessing.

Once a player’s prayer has been heard, they could be greeted with the prompt “Consecrate your prayers to (god) with a sacrifice of self? (Requires one Champion Point)”. Choosing to do so will consume one unallocated Champion Point. If the player has not yet earned any CP or have allocated all of their CPs, they will simply be told “Your faith is lacking. You have nothing more to offer (god).” If the player has an unallocated Champion Point the appropriate blessing is extended a significant amount and the blessing should become significantly more potent. This would cause different characters on one account to have different numbers to CPs.

If the player accesses a shrine of that same god before their blessing has expired they get the prompt “(god’s) blessing is still upon you.” And they cannot pray again until their blessing has worn off. Players should be able to extend their blessings with further prayers to other gods.

My reply:

Spoiler

This is why I suggest an advancement/progression system for pantheons linked to a home shrine (or a public shrine if housing isn't part of the deal, which it really ought to be). Part of your advancement would include increased odds of earning the favor of any god of your pantheon. Selecting a particular god to focus on within that pantheon could either further boost that chance (not my preference), or, simply offer a particular type of boon/buff. Another perk of advancement would boost whichever buff you get in duration and/or effect. You could still pray at any shrine, but would be less likely to find favor outside of your chosen pantheon.

Gidorick wrote: »

Blessings & Evocation
While I think it would be best if every god’s shrine offered different benefits to players, different shrines could offer the same benefit. If this is the case, the benefits should stack if the player prays at both shrines before their blessings expire.

Blessings could benefit a wide variety of stats that can impact any and all aspects of the game. From a god’s blessing that increases a player’s chances of catching rare fish or getting that rare drop, to a blessing that decreases repair costs or removes item damage, to a god’s that increases a player’s health regeneration rate or increases the effectiveness of potions, there isn’t an aspect of the game that couldn’t benefit from a god’s blessing.

While a player is blessed by their god, they should have an extremely slight chance of activating the god’s Evocation. Think of this as the god’s ultimate. Similarly to the blessing, the Evocation can affect any aspect of gameplay. For some of the Aedra or Daedra, perhaps the Evocation is a limited time summoning of an aspect of their Aedric or Daedric weapon. A player who evokes Sheogorath would obviously get limited use of an aspect of the Wabbajack. For lore purposes, this isn’t the Wabbajack itself, but a temporary manifestation of the power and form of the Wabbajack. For functional purposes… it’s the Wabbajack.

A few Evocation possibilities:

• Stendarr could cause the player to have a short period of increased critical hits.
• Akatosh could transform the player into a dragon.
• Nocturnal could make the player undetectable by guards, so they are free to rob, steal, and murder with impunity.
• Peryite could cause a cloud of pestilence to erupt upon a player’s death that has a high lethality rate in its area of effect.
• Arkay could cause an instant revival upon death and a period immunity to all incoming damage and increased damage dealt.
• etc…

Evocations could have a chance of being triggered when the player performs whatever act is with the power once evoked such as when they take damage, when they steal, when they fish, when they deal damage, when they die, or any other action in the game. Each Evocation could be as varied as the gods behind their power. The chance of Evocation should be incredibly, almost frustratingly low. Evocation should be quite rare and they should be an event when they occur. When a player Evokes the power of a god in game or on the battlefield it should make all players who are around them take notice and go “woah”.

My reply:

Spoiler

Something else to add as a perk (RNG odds booster) to the progression/advancement system.

Gidorick wrote: »

Faithfulness, and Sacrilege
There should be no limit on how many of blessings a player receives or how many gods they worship. Players should be free to worship any number of Gods they wish, in any of the pantheons. This doesn’t mean, however, that worshiping gods from different pantheons shouldn’t have consequences.

When a player receives blessings from more than one god, the effectiveness and the length of time of the blessings should be impacted negatively or positively.

Faithfulness:benefits of worshiping gods in the same pantheon

• Every blessing in the pantheon receives a power buff (more for consecrated prayers)
• Every blessing in the pantheon receives a duration increase (more for consecrated prayers)
• Worshiping an entire pantheon could yield the player great benefits, consecrated or not.
• Extended worship of one god should also benefit the player. A player who worships one god for a long period of time should benefit greatly from that gods attention. Perhaps this benefit manifests in a greater chance of evocation, which would make sense. This could also accompany a cool-down period after a blessing wares off in which the player has a limited amount of time to pray to that god again to get the faithfulness benefit, otherwise the player receives no additional benefit from praying to that god again.

Sacrilege: consequences of worshiping gods in different pantheons

• Every blessing in both pantheons receives a significant power decrease (no impact on consecrated prayers)
• Every blessing in both pantheons receives a significant duration decrease (no impact on consecrated prayers)
• Some pantheons could have a curse that is bestowed upon the player if they are worshiping a different pantheon. Mostly the Daedric Princes would be the ones to curse the player for praying to a god of a different pantheon.
• Some gods could punish the player if they are not worshiped within the cool-down period. This would mean that a player could be cursed for nothing more than not continuing to worship a specific god. The gods who would act in such a way would have to have benefits that would be worth the possible punishments.

If a player seeks the blessings of all the gods in one pantheon, the chances of them receiving an Evocation should be considerably higher than if they do not seek additional gods within the same pantheon. The larger the pantheon, the greater the eventual chance of Evoking one of the gods in the pantheon.

This aspect of the mechanic would mean that worshiping cross-pantheon gods would be crucial to a strategic plan of worshiping as cross-pantheon gods would negate some of the negative benefits of worshiping completely unrelated gods.

ZOS could make this even more complicated by applying boons and curses upon players depending on the specific god they worship. This could help make some of the pantheons, such as the Daedric pantheon, more complicated. There are certain princes who wouldn’t take too kindly to other princes being worshiped as well as them.

Shrines of the Saints and Individual Gods
In addition to the shrines of the pantheon gods, Tamriel could also be host to shrines of the saints (Mannimarco) and individual gods (Anu, Sithis, The Hist) that do not belong to any specific pantheon. These would be individual blessings that could have their own sets of rules of faithfulness and sacrilege.

Perhaps the duration and potency of the blessings could be dependent on being faithful by praying continuously to that saint or individual God. There is one major difference between praying to a saint and praying to an individual God: prayers to saints cannot be consecrated whereas prayers to individual gods can be.

It would be up to the lore-keepers at ZOS to differentiate between Pantheon Gods, Individual Gods, and Saints.

My reply:

Spoiler

It's interesting but likely too complicated as proposed, both for coding purposes and players easily following along/enjoying purposes. If you have to have a home pantheon, as per my suggestions above, the system is simplified. If the pantheon/sphere of influence of a shrine you visit is compatible with your personal/home pantheon, no problem. If it isn't, you could either have the shrine not work for you *or* you could accept the initiation or blessing and become a blasphemer. Honestly, I think most non-Daedric gods would get along. I don't see Tu'whacca getting pissed that you received a blessing from Arkay. But both of those gods would be extremely unhappy if you got a blessing from Mehrunes Dagon.

Basically, then, how about if you belong to a mainstream pantheon, you can get blessings from other such pantheons with no problem by visiting a shrine. However, you can't initiate with them. Nor could you receive a blessing from a Daedric shrine. Such a blessing would require penance from your personal/home shrine pantheon, and may include some loss of progression. Initiating with any other pantheon/sphere of influence, Daedric or not, makes you apostate, and you lose your progression from your advancement/progression.

Gidorick wrote: »

Crown Store Additions
There could be a few additions that could be added to the Crown Store to benefit ZOS and Players with this kind of religion mechanic.

• Indulgence Writ: Consumable that clears worship from one god.
• Baptismal Waters: Consumable that clears all worship.
• Idols: Portable, consumable icons that allow players to pray on the go without returning to shrines. These could require “imprinting” at the shrine so ZOS would sell one item that could be imprinted with any god or saint.

My reply:

Spoiler

The modified system I am suggesting wouldn't need worship to be cleared, but there are certainly items that could be added to the Crown Store. Additional altar styles/items beyond that which comes with the base patch, costumes for priests and acolytes of different faiths, etc.

Gidorick

Dang... This is some amazing feedback guys! One thing is for sure, we are passionate about our fantasy religions!

You touched upon a lot of the questions I ran into while writing the concept @TheShadowScout. My general desire for a religion concept was:

• We be allowed to freely worship whomever we wish
• We be rewarded for being faithful to that pantheon and to one god
• We be punished for being... fickle with out faith (interpantheon worship)

I like the idea of a player dedicating themselves to a pantheon then praying at shrines for blessing... and if you pray at an alter outside of your pantheon, you get punished. I like that concept IF and only if we can choose to change our pantheon. I feel similar to @tinythinker that I would like to be able to revere all of the divines and not just one.... and I would like the option to pray to a daedra if I'm feeling... saucy.

I do like the idea of there being different ways to venerate the different gods. Daedra requiring sacrifices and not just blessings would be awesome! I also like the idea of players choosing their pantheon by building a shrine. This would be a great way to include this with housing. I love the idea of pretty much making a Church of (insert god here) and holding stupid ceremonies and whatnot. Sounds oddly fun.

At one point I was thinking that praying at multiple shrines (even within the same pantheon) should divide your power by the number of gods that have blessed you. So if you pray at 1 shrine you get 100% blessing. Pray at 3? 33% for each. Pray at 10, 10% each. Although, I can understand the reasoning for them not stacking too. There are a lot of ways this can go.

That being said, I do like the idea of a passive skill set for devoting yourself to one god. The problem with that is the sheer number of gods that should be available now and will eventually be available. And I think it should only ever be passives that are given to a player. Never slot-able active abilities. The only problem I have with passives is the idea that you are constantly blessed. I don't think any deity should be that...erm... reliable.

I LOVE the idea of Evoking a god but I would be totally down for the requirements being pretty hard to obtain... then stack an RNG on top of that. Like I said, it should be an event when it happens. People should shout expletives and hit record and share videos and pics. I'm kind of thinking how I felt when I saw my first summon in Final Fantasy VII.

This could be handled with a faithfulness progression type system as mentioned by Tinythinker. The more faithful, the greater chance of Evocation!

I 1000% agree with religion being integrated into the rest of the game and NOT being a separate tab. You guys have convinced me of that. I also agree that the players "scope" of religion needs to be narrowed down. Having all pantheons and all gods being treated equally all the time is a bit... convoluted.

I'm also really digging the idea that people of a certain faith are treated differently @Taleof2Cities. That makes so much contextual sense. I have long desired ESO to be more exclusionary. More bigotry and racism please!

I'm blown away by your input and suggestions guys and plan to edit the OP in the next few days to take your input into consideration! One thing is for sure... we want more ways to revere our chosen dieties!

tinythinker

Gidorick wrote: »

That being said, I do like the idea of a passive skill set for devoting yourself to one god. The problem with that is the sheer number of gods that should be available now and will eventually be available. And I think it should only ever be passives that are given to a player. Never slot-able active abilities. The only problem I have with passives is the idea that you are constantly blessed. I don't think any deity should be that...erm... reliable.

I LOVE the idea of Evoking a god but I would be totally down for the requirements being pretty hard to obtain... then stack an RNG on top of that. Like I said, it should be an event when it happens. People should shout expletives and hit record and share videos and pics. I'm kind of thinking how I felt when I saw my first summon in Final Fantasy VII.

This could be handled with a faithfulness progression type system as mentioned by Tinythinker. The more faithful, the greater chance of Evocation!

I 1000% agree with religion being integrated into the rest of the game and NOT being a separate tab. You guys have convinced me of that. I also agree that the players "scope" of religion needs to be narrowed down. Having all pantheons and all gods being treated equally all the time is a bit... convoluted.

That's why I like the idea of a progression system that is primarily RP in nature. Some could be NPC interaction based like Persuasion and Intimidation but aimed at fellow followers or enemies of the faith (discounts from merchants, special dialogue options), or having that chance of evocation slightly increased, or allowing for other blessings/boons to be obtained, or getting more/better quest rewards, or access to special areas for that pantheon, etc. And while the system would say the same thing in terms of what you unlock in the progression screen ("Improves disposition of fellow followers to slight/modest/significant degree", "Increases odds of evocation event by 0.5%", etc), how it actually manifests in game could be pantheon specific. The same for focusing on a single god in a pantheon. You still have the base pantheon effects, but, the evocation or other special boon could be god specific.

With the religion screen opened only at shrines, it does simplify things a bit for the UI.

Looking forward to seeing what you do with the feedback you've received.


EDIT: Hmm, and they've started adding things like deconsecrated ground as an AoE snare/DoT as a death-proc for undead, maybe the passives could affect things like that too.