Elder Scrolls Online is an MMORPG, and denying that is where most of its issues spring from.

Attorneyatlawl · July 2015

ESO is an MMO.
ESO is an RPG.
ESO is an Elder Scrolls game.
ESO is not a single-player Skyrim sequel.

The most painful thing is, that the user interface in ESO has been the biggest issue by a large margin that has ever impacted my having fun in the game. Unfortunately, this also has had very wide-reaching effects on every major issue that has been a firestorm on the forums recently, too.

Combat UI features have largely left the vast majority of players having no idea how the mechanics really work (addons being the only way to see any numbers, which until the Imperial City launches will (since mid-beta) have been unable to tell you who hit you, or what skill you were attacked with, let alone what buffs you have on your character or debuffs you've cast on others, or who/what healed you... other things like a basic combat log tab to enable on the chat box have hurt this as well, with the same restrictions on addons until the upcoming DLC, and no way to do so ever before).

Industry standard features became that for a reason, and it's not because most people hated them and they were useless

. I feel the game's major issues stack up like this:

The #1 issue long-term players have (and in the past have had, regarding people who have quit) with the game, that really needs to be addressed.

I'd say mechanics and combat info clock in right at #2which lead to people getting fed up with Veteran Ranks originally as the game difficulty increased when going into that level range and they didn't have any way to tell how to handle it because of that, which is also part of the UI.

#3 would probably be the slower pace of content updates, particularly on the PVP end of things, but you can't change the past

and the Imperial City is almost here

! More looks to be coming at a better pace in near future overall.

A moderate distance away as #4 would be the champion system, which is having little honest discussion as virtually everyone who posts about it doesn't know how any of it works or how it affects things in-game because of points #1 and #2... and misguidedly demand severe nerfs rather than relatively easy tweaks such as a moderate scale-down , implementing the catch-up mechanism sooner, or adding another 36 passives but leaving the cap at 3600 champion points to make it into a true customization aspect as well.

Direct UI features ranging from needing addons to have basic game functions, to addons not being allowed to even try to take up the slack for many options such as nameplate/guildtag toggles, to outright bugs (group leader bug... stuck health bars... cursor mode randomly triggering after closing UI windows and requiring a /reloadui... party members entering combat as you load a new zone causing it to hang up and give you an endless load screen) along with the lack of general usability, have also been a bear

.

Community features like optional toggles for name/guild tags and player titles, being able to recognize/see friends and guildmates in the area readily, the deathspam channel in Cyrodiil which gave it a feeling of activity and life, simple things like showing what sold in a guild kiosk mail or having a "Reply" button to message someone back in the mailbox.

Consoles not only have all of the issues above... but can't use addons due to Sony/Microsoft platform restrictions in the first place, and don't have even a chat window you can pull up when in say your inventory or on its own screen, instead relying solely on voice chat which has a myriad number of its own inherent issues when being used as the only real form of communication. Both text chat and voice chat have their uses including some overlapping ones, but neither can really handle everything the best.

(Obligatory "ZOS plz fix!" goes here)

Akavir_Sentinel · July 2015

GreySix · July 2015

Yeah, because nobody wanted this game for just cooperative TES play.

Smiteye · July 2015

GreySix wrote: »

Yeah, because nobody wanted this game for just cooperative TES play.

Except this isn't that game! It can be fun in that way too tho.

GreySix · July 2015

Smiteye wrote: »

GreySix wrote: »

Yeah, because nobody wanted this game for just cooperative TES play.

Except this isn't that game! It can be fun in that way too tho.

In effect, it is that game.

Or are you aware of an alternative that allows cooperative play in a TES game?

Attorneyatlawl · July 2015

GreySix wrote: »

Smiteye wrote: »

GreySix wrote: »

Yeah, because nobody wanted this game for just cooperative TES play.

Except this isn't that game! It can be fun in that way too tho.

In effect, it is that game.

Or are you aware of an alternative that allows cooperative play in a TES game?

Ask Bethesda to implement a co-op mode in TES VI

. Not everything you can imagine exists yet in life.

GreySix · July 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

GreySix wrote: »

Smiteye wrote: »

GreySix wrote: »

Yeah, because nobody wanted this game for just cooperative TES play.

Except this isn't that game! It can be fun in that way too tho.

In effect, it is that game.

Or are you aware of an alternative that allows cooperative play in a TES game?

Ask Bethesda to implement a co-op mode in TES VI . Not everything you can imagine exists yet in life.

You're missing the point: For years, TES fans were asking for a co-op feature to their games. ESO finally offered it, though in a watered-down sense, as the main quest was inexplicably forced-solo.

And if you believe the next TES SP game will have a co-op feature, I've got a fully-functional lightsaber to sell you for the low-low price of just $58,989. Just Paypal me the money, and when it's in the bank, I'll get that lightsaber right off to ya.

OzJohnD · July 2015

CaptainObvious · July 2015

Please have the antcedent match the consequent. There are plenty of non-MMOs that implement what you are asking for.

Plus, this game is more like an MO anyways. Look at the map sizes of the original games pre-Morrowind. That was massive.

ShedsHisTail · July 2015

I honestly checked the date-stamp on this thread because it was like reading threads from a year ago.

GreySix · July 2015

From PC Gamer:

Cooperative Play

The Elder Scrolls Online grew out of a persistent desire for a cooperative mode in an Elder Scrolls game, but it may push the concept too far. The series seems at its best when it pits you against the entirety of the world it creates—thus abandoning chat logs filled with snide remarks about politics and World of Warcraft in favor of becoming a part of the world. Dumping a bunch of real people into Tamriel, paradoxically, spoils some of the series' best qualities. And that's why a multiplayer mode should be limited to two players. It would capture that two-adventurer dynamic that worked so well for Skyrim, and it would allow for key decisions that affect the storyline and landscape to unfold in such a way that will always be alien to an MMORPG. At the very least, a real person is far less likely to bungle stealth attacks in dungeons than the NPC companions. Photo: Christopher Livingston (PC Gamer)

Attorneyatlawl · July 2015

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

I honestly checked the date-stamp on this thread because it was like reading threads from a year ago.

That's part of the point of it being posted

.

VoidBlue · July 2015

Wut!!! This is an mmorpg? I thought it was a sweetroll.

firstdecan · July 2015

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

I honestly checked the date-stamp on this thread because it was like reading threads from a year ago.

Right? And people still don't get that the expectation is that this will first and foremost be an Elder Scrolls game. Something about the title of the game must be giving people that expectation.

OzJohnD · July 2015

no role play here ...

Psychobunni · July 2015

Well we can argue all day long about whether ESO is just meant for just co-op, with its AVA, 4 &12 Man dungeons, and omg a handful of quests that might take 5 hours (total of all) to do solo in the course of many hours played....

But this thread wasn't about your particular pet peeve @GreySix, nor does it need to be. (and I don't mean that disrespectfully) Bethesda has a forum too where players can request a strict co-op game.

The OP is about basic UI options standard in just about any MMO on the market. That literally have ran players away from this game.

It should continue to be a conversation, every week until they are part of the game (both versions) for optional use.

GreySix · July 2015

Psychobunni wrote: »

Well we can argue all day long about whether ESO is just meant for just co-op...

Never argued that it was meant as just a cooperative TES game, but the fact remains that it's the only TES game ... at all ... that currently fills the role, and a driving force for the development of ESO was clearly a demand for cooperative play in a TES game.

What I am asserting is that ESO was never meant to appeal only to the MMO crowd.

Psychobunni · July 2015

GreySix wrote: »

Psychobunni wrote: »

Well we can argue all day long about whether ESO is just meant for just co-op...

Never argued that it was meant as just a cooperative TES game, but the fact remains that it's the only TES game ... at all ... that currently fills the role, and a driving force for the development of ESO was clearly a demand for cooperative play in a TES game.

What I am asserting is that ESO was never meant to appeal only to the MMO crowd.

Okay. And maybe some of those that just one to play with that one family/friend/spouse want UI features. Maybe they don't. But you know what options does? Fulfills both their needs.

GreySix · July 2015

Psychobunni wrote: »

GreySix wrote: »

Psychobunni wrote: »

Well we can argue all day long about whether ESO is just meant for just co-op...

Never argued that it was meant as just a cooperative TES game, but the fact remains that it's the only TES game ... at all ... that currently fills the role, and a driving force for the development of ESO was clearly a demand for cooperative play in a TES game.

What I am asserting is that ESO was never meant to appeal only to the MMO crowd.

Okay. And maybe some of those that just one to play with that one family/friend/spouse want UI features. Maybe they don't. But you know what options does? Fulfills both their needs.

Again, only to an extent. Otherwise, the main story would not have been forced-solo. IMO, Zenimax missed the mark on that call.

ShedsHisTail · July 2015

I think one of the reasons you don't see a lot of the features you're asking for is -because- they (the Devs) want to encourage diversity.

By keeping things more ambiguous on a base level (but allowing add-ons) you maintain a certain vaguery which encourages experimentation and exploration.

As soon as actual hard numbers start flashing across the screen it'll push players toward pigeon-holing certain classes to certain play styles. It'll be easier to say this is better than that because just look at the numbers.

I can understand why folks don't like it that way, and if you're one of those folks, you've got option for add-ons. I can also see why the Devs like it without those features; it makes min/maxing harder.

OzJohnD · July 2015

PC players have got option for add-ons

fixed

Psychobunni · July 2015

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

I can understand why folks don't like it that way, and if you're one of those folks, you've got option for add-ons. I can also see why the Devs like it without those features; it makes min/maxing harder.

Except consoles have no addons. PC has the option to use addons but are dependent upon the developer(s) not quitting, and that they get broken by updates all the time.

So in short, addons aren't really a viable excuse anymore, especially with consoles.

Edit: On pc addons': or bug out one or many other things

Psychobunni · July 2015

Also because I think it's a very valid point, a console player mentioned in another thread that without the numbers it is almost impossible to theorycraft builds on console. Crunching the numbers, testing everything out, this vs that, is what some people find fun in a game.

Makes me curious if @Deltia or @Atropos knows if anyone on their sites contribute builds that they have put together addon-less and remain viable

HxC · July 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Combat UI features have largely left the vast majority of players having no idea how the mechanics really work (addons being the only way to see any numbers, which until the Imperial City launches will (since mid-beta) have been unable to tell you who hit you, or what skill you were attacked with, let alone what buffs you have on your character or debuffs you've cast on others, or who/what healed you... other things like a basic combat log tab to enable on the chat box have hurt this as well, with the same restrictions on addons until the upcoming DLC, and no way to do so ever before).

No, people don't know mechanics because they are not learning them. And as there is no manual or real tutorial in this game to explain all the mechanics, they struggle when difficulty step up.
And you don't need combat UI to master your rotation, combat UI just made life easier for theorycrafting.
The difficulty were rise to high on first veteran system, playing a stamina build was really hard, only magicka was able to do the job for the majority of players.
My biggest concern about the UI is ergonomics.

There is no big issue with the Cp system currently, its a system that promote diversity(remember what was end game before 1.6), Min/maxer or grinders are not the main target of the system so all ZOS has to do is to bring us on a specific server for PvP and had a Hardcore mode system for PvE.

it's an AAA game made for casual player.

ShedsHisTail · July 2015

Psychobunni wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

I can understand why folks don't like it that way, and if you're one of those folks, you've got option for add-ons. I can also see why the Devs like it without those features; it makes min/maxing harder.

Except consoles have no addons. PC has the option to use addons but are dependent upon the developer(s) not quitting, and that they get broken by updates all the time.

So in short, addons aren't really a viable excuse anymore, especially with consoles.

Edit: On pc addons': or bug out one or many other things

Yeah, that's right.
I keep forgetting it's on console now too.

My point remains, though. ZOS wants to encourage diversity. Keeping the mechanics and numbers vague works toward that goal by making people tinker and experiment rather than just grab the build that shows great big numbers.

RazzPitazz · July 2015

Psychobunni wrote: »

Also because I think it's a very valid point, a console player mentioned in another thread that without the numbers it is almost impossible to theorycraft builds on console. Crunching the numbers, testing everything out, this vs that, is what some people find fun in a game.

Makes me curious if @Deltia or @Atropos knows if anyone on their sites contribute builds that they have put together addon-less and remain viable

@Elloa doesn't use add ons, but I do not know if she builds on her own or with help.

RazzPitazz · July 2015

@Attorneyatlawl I think the phrase You are looking for is "Quality of Life improvements" if I may summarize your post, respectfully.

Sausage · July 2015

Is this your first MMORPG game.

Attorneyatlawl · July 2015

VoidBlue wrote: »

Wut!!! This is an mmorpg? I thought it was a sweetroll.

Many people do, shockingly!

Reeko · July 2015

You guys do know about the co-op mods for skyrim right?

Reeko · July 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

ESO is an MMO.
ESO is an RPG.
ESO is an Elder Scrolls game.
ESO is not a single-player Skyrim sequel.

The most painful thing is, that the user interface in ESO has been the biggest issue by a large margin that has ever impacted my having fun in the game. Unfortunately, this also has had very wide-reaching effects on every major issue that has been a firestorm on the forums recently, too.

Combat UI features have largely left the vast majority of players having no idea how the mechanics really work (addons being the only way to see any numbers, which until the Imperial City launches will (since mid-beta) have been unable to tell you who hit you, or what skill you were attacked with, let alone what buffs you have on your character or debuffs you've cast on others, or who/what healed you... other things like a basic combat log tab to enable on the chat box have hurt this as well, with the same restrictions on addons until the upcoming DLC, and no way to do so ever before).

Industry standard features became that for a reason, and it's not because most people hated them and they were useless . I feel the game's major issues stack up like this:

The #1 issue long-term players have (and in the past have had, regarding people who have quit) with the game, that really needs to be addressed.

I'd say mechanics and combat info clock in right at #2which lead to people getting fed up with Veteran Ranks originally as the game difficulty increased when going into that level range and they didn't have any way to tell how to handle it because of that, which is also part of the UI.

#3 would probably be the slower pace of content updates, particularly on the PVP end of things, but you can't change the past and the Imperial City is almost here ! More looks to be coming at a better pace in near future overall.

A moderate distance away as #4 would be the champion system, which is having little honest discussion as virtually everyone who posts about it doesn't know how any of it works or how it affects things in-game because of points #1 and #2... and misguidedly demand severe nerfs rather than relatively easy tweaks such as a moderate scale-down , implementing the catch-up mechanism sooner, or adding another 36 passives but leaving the cap at 3600 champion points to make it into a true customization aspect as well.

Direct UI features ranging from needing addons to have basic game functions, to addons not being allowed to even try to take up the slack for many options such as nameplate/guildtag toggles, to outright bugs (group leader bug... stuck health bars... cursor mode randomly triggering after closing UI windows and requiring a /reloadui... party members entering combat as you load a new zone causing it to hang up and give you an endless load screen) along with the lack of general usability, have also been a bear .

Community features like optional toggles for name/guild tags and player titles, being able to recognize/see friends and guildmates in the area readily, the deathspam channel in Cyrodiil which gave it a feeling of activity and life, simple things like showing what sold in a guild kiosk mail or having a "Reply" button to message someone back in the mailbox.

Consoles not only have all of the issues above... but can't use addons due to Sony/Microsoft platform restrictions in the first place, and don't have even a chat window you can pull up when in say your inventory or on its own screen, instead relying solely on voice chat which has a myriad number of its own inherent issues when being used as the only real form of communication. Both text chat and voice chat have their uses including some overlapping ones, but neither can really handle everything the best.

(Obligatory "ZOS plz fix!" goes here)

Yes to ALL of this!