Zenimax, we need an Alchemy overhaul (reference chart inside)

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dharbert
dharbert
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As per the title of this thread, Alchemy badly needs an overhaul. 53% of the two-reagent combinations do nothing at all, and a full 75% of all reagent combinations are useless, counting the harmful potions and potions with harmful side effects.

That leaves us with only 25% usable reagent combinations that only have beneficial effects. It is pointless to invest skill points in Snake Blood because no one is going to craft potions with harmful side effects when there are other potions that accomplish the same thing without harmful side effects.

Another problem is encountered when crafting speed, unstoppable, weapon crit, spell crit, invisible, and other miscellaneous effect potions. They don't scale with the quality of the solvent used. For example, a level 3 speed potion gives you the same benefit as a VR5 speed potion. There is no difference.

Stun potion is bugged. It is the only potion that shows to be level 50, even though you craft it with VR1 and VR5 solvents.

I've included a reference chart that I created for those who are trying to figure out the combinations, trying to level Alchemy, or are just curious about how many different types of potions there are (for two-reagent combinations, anyway).

Note the disparity in the number of health potions compared to stamina and magicka potions.

bQzPNGE.png
Edited by dharbert on August 20, 2014 8:23AM
  • jelliedsoup
    jelliedsoup
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    Wow thanks heaps.
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  • dharbert
    dharbert
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    Out of a possible 306 two-reagent combinations, 162 don't do anything at all, 54 are harmful, and 16 have harmful side effects. Only 74 combination of out 306 are beneficial. Those numbers need to be adjusted. The number of harmful potions and invalid combinations far outnumber the useful combinations.

    Alchemy is the only crafting skill line without a Hireling. Why is that? Get rid of the useless Snake Blood passive and replace it with Hireling.

    Make ALL potion effects scale according to the level of solvent used. A VR5 potion shouldn't have the same potency as a level 3 potion.

    Do you at least plan on letting us use the negative effect potions as poisons later? That's the only reason why I can see there are so many of them....
  • Samadhi
    Samadhi
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    dharbert wrote: »
    ...

    That leaves us with only 25% usable reagent combinations that only have beneficial effects. It is pointless to invest skill points in Snake Blood because no one is going to craft potions with harmful side effects when there are other potions that accomplish the same thing without harmful side effects.

    ...

    Here's a mechanic question I have always wondered about but never been willing to spend the point to check:
    If I craft an Invisibility potion, does Snake Blood cancel it out, making a beneficial potion useless?

    Invisibility seems to be represented as the "negative" version of Detection.
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  • dharbert
    dharbert
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    Samadhi wrote: »

    Here's a mechanic question I have always wondered about but never been willing to spend the point to check:
    If I craft an Invisibility potion, does Snake Blood cancel it out, making a beneficial potion useless?

    Invisibility seems to be represented as the "negative" version of Detection.

    Snake Blood only works on potions that have negative side effects. Invisibility is a beneficial effect. It allows you to disappear for 3 seconds (4 seconds if crafted with 3 reagents).

    Edited by dharbert on August 20, 2014 7:26AM
  • dharbert
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    Zenimax, you are also going to have to give us new, stronger solvents or give us a way to create them.

    You are increasing the level cap to VR14, yet the highest level potion that can be made is VR5. That's a huge gap.
  • Samadhi
    Samadhi
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    dharbert wrote: »

    Snake Blood only works on potions that have negative side effects. Invisibility is a beneficial effect. It allows you to disappear for 3 seconds (4 seconds if crafted with 3 reagents).

    So mechanically it is considered different from something like Ravage Health, even though both of them have the black icons, and Invisibility cancels out Detection effects in mixing?

    I was under the impression that Nirnroot was alchemically an item with 4 negative traits similar to Emetic Russula (why is this even an reagent?)
    Edited by Samadhi on August 20, 2014 7:35AM
    "If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
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  • Sharee
    Sharee
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    Keep in mind that ZOS has stated in the past they are going to implement poisons as a tool to attack enemies eventually (i suspect with the release of dark brotherhood/thieves guild). This will significantly change what is considered an useful herb.
  • dharbert
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    Samadhi wrote: »
    So mechanically it is considered different from something like Ravage Health, even though both of them have the black icons, and Invisibility cancels out Detection effects in mixing?

    I was under the impression that Nirnroot was alchemically an item with 4 negative traits similar to Emetic Russula (why is this even an reagent?)

    Invisibility is a beneficial effect. It works against NPC's but I'm not sure about PvP. When you use the potion you are Hidden for 3 to 4 seconds. I tried it and aggro'd a mob and then used the potion and they stopped following and attacking me for the duration of the potion.
  • dharbert
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    Sharee wrote: »
    Keep in mind that ZOS has stated in the past they are going to implement poisons as a tool to attack enemies eventually (i suspect with the release of dark brotherhood/thieves guild). This will significantly change what is considered an useful herb.

    That will give us a use for the harmful ones, but that still leaves a whopping 162 invalid combinations that do absolutely nothing.

  • phaneub17_ESO
    phaneub17_ESO
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    Snakeblood. Change it to Green Thumb that gives you an increased chance of picking an additional reagent by 25%/50%/100% for Herb and water nodes.
  • Soloeus
    Soloeus
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    It is fine. There will also be Poisons added.

    Within; Without.
  • Samadhi
    Samadhi
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    dharbert wrote: »

    Invisibility is a beneficial effect. It works against NPC's but I'm not sure about PvP. When you use the potion you are Hidden for 3 to 4 seconds. I tried it and aggro'd a mob and then used the potion and they stopped following and attacking me for the duration of the potion.

    Detection is also a beneficial effect. It allows me to see enemy players in Sneak, as well as characters in Invisibility.
    If both are beneficial effects, why do they cancel each other out and why does Invisibility have a black icon?

    When mixing:
    Restore Health and Ravage Health cancel each other out
    Speed and Reduce Speed cancel each other out
    Unstoppable and Stun cancel each other out
    Detection and Invisibility cancel each other out

    I totally agree that Invisibility is beneficial, I craft potions using Blue Entoloma, Namira's Rot, and Blessed Thistle (3 seconds vanish, Move speed increase for 10 seconds)
    My concern has always been that putting points in the Snake Blood passive would cause these potions to only give me the Move Speed increase; Speed is represented as a white/positive effect, while Invisibility is represented as a black/negative effect.
    Alchemically Invisibility is represented as a negative effect that can be applied to beneficial potions.
    "If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
    Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
  • dharbert
    dharbert
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    Samadhi wrote: »
    My concern has always been that putting points in the Snake Blood passive would cause these potions to only give me the Move Speed increase; Speed is represented as a white/positive effect, while Invisibility is represented as a black/negative effect.
    Alchemically Invisibility is represented as a negative effect that can be applied to beneficial potions.

    I don't know about that. I've never invested points in Snake Blood as I don't see any point in crafting a potion that has negative side effects in the first place.

  • Samadhi
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    dharbert wrote: »

    I don't know about that. I've never invested points in Snake Blood as I don't see any point in crafting a potion that has negative side effects in the first place.

    That is unfortunate, I was hoping someone had tested it.

    I think it was designed with the idea that some beneficial effects are available only in a mix that contains negative effects, unless a third reagent is added. Kind of an alchemical cost-reduction passive that doesn't actually hold appeal.

    The Increase Armour Potion is only available with a Reduce Weapon Damage effect attached to it. (Mountain Flower + Imp Stool)
    Adding Blessed Thistle to the mix gets rid of the Weapon Damage reduction.

    Similarily, Increase Spell Resistance is only available when combined with Reduce Spell Damage (Bugloss + White Cap)
    Adding Corn Flower to the mix gets rid of the Spell Damage reduction.

    Armour and Spell Resistance aren't really all that beneficial though; by contrast, the Invisibility mixture is. I wouldn't want to put points into a passive that cancels Invisibility just for these buffs when I can throw an extra reagent in the mix.
    "If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
    Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
  • AoEnwyr
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    I agree that alchemy isn't a interesting or useful as I'd hoped. I've always been an Alchemist in TES and was sad to find there was no use for poisons. There is next to no resale value in ESO for master crafted potions so it's basically a skill I use to make health potions for my partner and I.
  • dharbert
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    Wow thanks heaps.

    You're welcome. I created this chart to help out anyone who is interested in Alchemy in this game, and burnt up quite a few reagents and solvents in the process.
  • dharbert
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    There are 4,896 three-reagent combinations. I haven't bothered yet to see how many are invalid or harmful. Based on my findings with the two-reagent combinations, I'd bet that at least 75% of them are useless.
  • Sharee
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    dharbert wrote: »

    That will give us a use for the harmful ones, but that still leaves a whopping 162 invalid combinations that do absolutely nothing.

    I am not sure that this is a problem. That's how alchemy works - there are tons of possible combinations, and it's up to the player to find out those that work. It the same as it was in skyrim - you could find tons of ways to mix ingredients that produced no potion.
  • dodgehopper_ESO
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    As an avid alchemist in TES games I have to agree that alchemy in ESO is surprisingly dull. Provisioning on the other hand is actually more interesting, although highly frustrating in terms of acquiring the better recipes. I would have liked to see alchemy utilize far more ingredients, like Morrowind and Skyrim, both metal, food, and herb. Common ingredients from older games like Trama Root (you can even see them in the artwork of the game), Scathecrew, etc don't even exist as usable items.

    There is also an ingredient which serves no purpose whatsoever: Emetic Russula. Emetic Russula is all negative effects, and since we can't make poisons, it is a pointless ingredient unless you are using them to level alchemy skill by discovering traits. Maybe they intend to improve Poisons when the Dark Brotherhood and Justice system go live, which would make some sense.

    With regard to Snakeblood, I like the idea of that trait, and miss the ability to resist poison that comes with it.
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  • Evergnar
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    Great thread. Alchemy has always been my favorite in TES. There is definitely something off with number of useless and/or harmful effects. Feels like something is missing or something else was intended that was left unfinished.

    Aside from the useless/harmful effects and regents I think alchemy has a pretty solid foundation in ESO. It should be easy to add onto with new regents & solvents.

    Looking forward to seeing what new regents and effects the devs come up with. Poisons are a must and I would love to see some other TESO staples like telekinesis, pickpocket, cure disease/poison/paralysis (stun), night-eye, light, reflect.
  • Brizz
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    Blow Dart - Can be crafted by woodworkers to be used as a solvent to create poisonous darts. Shares the same cooldown as potions and effects your current target within 28 meters.

    ZOS said the plan to have poisons sometime in the future and I'm really looking forward to using up all this nirnroot.
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  • Azzuria
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    If ZOS makes poisons usable like in Skyrim then all the 'negative effect' issues become moot.

    What I'd like to see is the addition of more reagents, things that drop off beasts, daedra, spirits and more plants.
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  • dharbert
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    Azzuria wrote: »
    If ZOS makes poisons usable like in Skyrim then all the 'negative effect' issues become moot.

    What I'd like to see is the addition of more reagents, things that drop off beasts, daedra, spirits and more plants.

    Yes, if they would add more combination possibilities, that would be nice. Let us use things that drop from mobs that are currently useless, such as Daedra Husk, Ectoplasm, Elemental Essence, etc...

  • Alysta
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    I would like to see the number of reagents increased to include lootable items from various enemies. Like Troll Fat. I'm a bosmer that chooses to abide by the Green Pact, so all of my reagents would have to be purchased. And technically, I could not even drink my potions after they are made. Very frustrating.
  • andre.roques.3b14_ESO
    Lots of good work/detail. But I fail to see why only 1/4 of the combinations as beneficial (for two reagent potions) as something broken or bad. And considering that they are likely to add poison use, I'm sure that this is already a profession that is working as intended and only getting better.
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  • Nestor
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    dharbert wrote: »
    That will give us a use for the harmful ones, but that still leaves a whopping 162 invalid combinations that do absolutely nothing.

    That is the way that it should be. It is the way that it has been in Alchemy in this series since we had Alchemy in this series. Not all ingredient combos make an effective potion.

    Poisons should be introduced with the Dark Brotherhood. I had thought they were in the game already when I puttered around with Alchemy, but we don't have a way to apply them to weapons, yet.

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  • dharbert
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    Nestor wrote: »

    That is the way that it should be. It is the way that it has been in Alchemy in this series since we had Alchemy in this series. Not all ingredient combos make an effective potion.

    While I agree that not every reagent combination should produce a potion, currently more than half of all possible reagent combinations are invalid and produce nothing. More than half. That seems a bit high to me.
  • Azzuria
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    Alysta wrote: »
    I would like to see the number of reagents increased to include lootable items from various enemies. Like Troll Fat. I'm a bosmer that chooses to abide by the Green Pact, so all of my reagents would have to be purchased. And technically, I could not even drink my potions after they are made. Very frustrating.

    The Green Pact is only an effect in the Bosmer homeland. It's all salads and steamed veggies everywhere else.
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  • Nestor
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    dharbert wrote: »


    While I agree that not every reagent combination should produce a potion, currently more than half of all possible reagent combinations are invalid and produce nothing. More than half. That seems a bit high to me.

    Here, you can try out Alchemical Combos from previous TES Games, this one is for Skyrim but I don't think the recipes have changed all that much from Daggerfall/Morrowind days

    http://skyrim.melian.cc/?cmd=cmdSkyrimAlchemyWizard

    Way more than half the combos don't produce a useful Potion. Of course the difference is, in those games, you can just run across the countryside spamming the activate key and fill up your inventory with hundreds of Reagents.

    Here it is more of a bummer as the reagents are much more rare. If they were not, then the non productive combos would not bother anyone. Yes, I have stood there at the Alchemy Table with 7 or 8 reagents and no potions to make from them. But, that's Alchemy in TES.

    The trick is to determine which potions you need, learn the reagents for those specific potions and then just farm those reagents. Leave the rest. I had to do that in earlier games, even with the abundance.

    Enjoy the game, life is what you really want to be worried about.

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  • KhajitFurTrader
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    Is it just me, or are all of the figures given only for two reagents?

    What about the three reagents combinations? Doesn't this change the whole picture in a non-trivial way?

    Example: White Cap is stated to have no beneficial effect at all when combined with only one other component. But White Cap combined with Bugloss and Columbine gives Restore Health and Increase Spell Resistance, while it reduces Spell Damage.
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