Zenimax, we need an Alchemy overhaul (reference chart inside)

UrQuan

dharbert wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

That is the way that it should be. It is the way that it has been in Alchemy in this series since we had Alchemy in this series. Not all ingredient combos make an effective potion.

While I agree that not every reagent combination should produce a potion, currently more than half of all possible reagent combinations are invalid and produce nothing. More than half. That seems a bit high to me.

A bit more than half of the combinations not producing anything seems really low to me. In previous ES games way more than half of the combinations produced nothing. As has been pointed out, however, alchemy ingredients are far more rare in ESO than in Skyrim, Oblivion, etc, so it's probably OK that there are fewer invalid combos in ESO than in previous ES games.

The only real issue that I have with alchemy currently is that some of the alchemy ingredients are so obviously more useful than others.

coryevans_3b14_ESO

This should probably be last on the list of things Zen needs to work on.

dharbert

KhajitFurTrader wrote: »

Is it just me, or are all of the figures given only for two reagents?

What about the three reagents combinations? Doesn't this change the whole picture in a non-trivial way?

Example: White Cap is stated to have no beneficial effect at all when combined with only one other component. But White Cap combined with Bugloss and Columbine gives Restore Health and Increase Spell Resistance, while it reduces Spell Damage.

If you had read my post, I stated that the chart was only for two-reagent combinations.

There are only 306 possible two-reagent combinations. However, there are 4,896 possible three-reagent combinations. There's no way I can make an image of a chart that size, not to mention it would take me days or weeks to figure all of them out.

AlnilamE

Looking at your chart, the only plant that does not have at least one positive or "side-effect" combination is Emetic Russula. Every other plant you can combine with another plant to make something useful.

I don't see how that is not working as designed, particularly taking into consideration that there will be poisons in the future.

Nestor

To get an effect out of a Reagent, there has to be a match on at least one of the effects between the two reagents. If there are two matches, then you get two effects. The way it works is the top positive effect by combing the ranks for each reagent is the primary effect, and then next ranked effect becomes the secondary.

Not all 3 reagent combos will give multiple effects, some will still give you one, some will give two, some will give 3. I have never seen one that gives 4. It all depends on how many matches you have across the Reagent Effects

So, in this case, the Restore and Spell Resistances are coming from two of the reagents, and the Spell Damage is coming from one of the two for the first effect and the third reagent that did not offer Health or Spell effects. The algorythm also favors positive results, so unless you have all highly ranked negative effects, it will give what positive results it can find a match for.

For example, pick White Cap and Creep Cluster give only Restore Magick, because that is all that matches between the two. But you add in Scaly Pholita you get 3 effects because there are 3 matches of effects across the reagents.

I am not explaining this very well, but if you play around with the Lab that I linked to picking out reagents, then you can see how it picks the effects based on the rank of that effect for each reagent. Of course, Bugloss is a new reagent introduced in the series (I did think it was in Morrowind though, can't remember) so it's not in the list specifically.

Samadhi

I pick and keep every reagent I find, so when they finally fix the system I'll have a bunch of everything.

I would really like to see the system far more fleshed out though. It feels only half-complete, if that.
They have already committed to making Enchanting easier to level, and already made plans to redesign Provisioning, Alchemy should be pretty high up the list on systems to work on as well.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom or @ZOS_GinaBruno are there any plans being made to help the Alchemy system feel more rewarding and implement poison effects soon?
The idea has been teased as being expanded in the past, but will anything truly come from that?
We need poisons to be functional, as well as a diverse number of alchemical reagents and v10+ water for solvents implemented.
I'm more than willing to be patient if I know improvements are coming; however, I've not heard any plans for Alchemy since Beta.

Nestor

Alchemy is pretty easy to level, it just takes a few potions to gain a level. What you have to do is use the most powerful Solvents you can to get the most bang out of the procedure. The only thing that has stopped me from going to Level 50 is lack of bag space and no desire to level Alchemy right now. But using Natural Water to make potions will never level your alchemy fast.

daneyulebub17_ESO

The single, biggest improvement to Alchemy ZOS could make would be to re-design the Quick Slot mechanism so 90% people actually used more than health pots in battle.

Greymind's Quick Slots addon, and others, can make it better, of course, but relatively few will bother to use them, which means the market for most potions is dismal.

Create a workable way of switching between multiple potions in the heat of battle, and Alchemy will become much more useful.

AlnilamE

If you can use three items, it is fairly easy to make potions that do more than one thing.

On my NB, I slot H/M/S potions most of the time, and on my Sorc, I have H/M/Spell Power.

Other options are available for other styles. When we had a guild store last week, I actually made a few potions that had 2 or 3 effects and they sold.

daneyulebub17_ESO

AlnilamE wrote: »

If you can use three items, it is fairly easy to make potions that do more than one thing.

On my NB, I slot H/M/S potions most of the time, and on my Sorc, I have H/M/Spell Power.

Other options are available for other styles. When we had a guild store last week, I actually made a few potions that had 2 or 3 effects and they sold.

Yep, that's what I sometimes have to buy but I don't like it. Problem is, I seldom need 3 things at the same time. When I need more Stamina, say, to use a Health/Stamina/Magica pot is a waste. So, usually, I just end up buying health potions.

Samadhi

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

...
Greymind's Quick Slots addon, and others, can make it better, of course, but relatively few will bother to use them, which means the market for most potions is dismal.
...

Anyone who isn't using Greymind is really missing out.

I run my PvP sessions with:
- Health and Magicka recovery, plus 26% Spell Crit
- Stealth Detection 26 meters, Spell Damage 24, restore Magicka
- Health, Magicka, Stamina recovery in a single potion (the "I need to block while healing and spamming skills" potion)
- 3 seconds invisible 10 seconds 39% move speed increase
- Health and Stamina recovery, plus 26% Weapon Crit

I swap liberally between them and drink some of them like water. I can blow through a whole stack of Stealth Detection in a few hours just due to hunting enemy scouts and killing Nightblades who Cloak.

I craft all my own potions; however, I've seen a number of PvP players complain about having potion costs of 10k+ while they play, because the multi-stat potions seem to be favoured in Cyrodiil.

Perhaps try logging into one of the populated campaigns and offering sales by the stack. If you're like me and farm all your own reagents, it may yield some profit.

DaniAngione

I see no problem in having only a small percentage of the combinations considered 'useful'.

I mean, get 10 random ingredients from your kitchen and mix them with each other. Not everything will taste good, some might even taste bad. A few will be really good.

Such is alchemy. The fact that only a few combinations are useful is the special part of it - not everything you do is useful. And it must remain like this.

I agree with Snake Blood, though. I'd love to see a hireling being added.

Oh, and if I could suggest a change: when mixing two ingredients we have mixed already (and nothing happened), the game should say this won't give you nothing instead of saying "unknown results". So people that enjoy discovering the ingredients' effects by themselves wouldn't need to write down every combination they tried already.

DenverRalphy

The major flaw in this rant thread, is the assumption that there should be a higher rate of beneficial potions. Seriously? 74 potions with nothing but benefits is sub par?

Does anybody actually think that 74 potions without negative effects is bad? Hell no!

The whole point of the Alchemy skill is that you can't just add items together willy nilly.

The beneficial potions without negative effects should be the minority.

dharbert

DenverRalphy wrote: »

The major flaw in this rant thread, is the assumption that there should be a higher rate of beneficial potions. Seriously? 74 potions with nothing but benefits is sub par?

Does actually think that 74 potions without negative effects is bad? He'll no!

The whole point of the Alchemy skill is that you can't just add items together willy nilly.

The beneficial potions without negative effects should be the minority.

Ok, first of all, it's not a rant thread. First and foremost this thread was to bring to the devs attention some of the things that are wrong or not currently working with Alchemy, and how it can be made better. Secondly, I made that chart to help others out with leveling their Alchemy or figuring out combinations.

Yes, there are several potions that are beneficial only. There are also several potions that are not working correctly, or as well as they should.

Crafting a level 3 invis potion gives the same benefit as crafting a VR5 invis potion. It shouldn't be that way. All potions should scale according to the level of solvent used.

Anvos

I agree that potions should have increases in power with solvent quality for all effects and that until poison crafting is added alchemy is semi gimped.

As for snake blood I would while a hireling/gardener would be nice I could also see maybe changing snake blood to unlocking a refinement option at the lab bench where through using more of the base solvent (could maybe add an improve item as well) you have a chance to purge negative effects and potions without negative effects would have a chance at increased quality.

poodlemasterb16_ESO

UlanX wrote: »

I agree that alchemy isn't a interesting or useful as I'd hoped. I've always been an Alchemist in TES and was sad to find there was no use for poisons. There is next to no resale value in ESO for master crafted potions so it's basically a skill I use to make health potions for my partner and I.

Health potions? You can buy them. Health, stamina and magic potions, all in one, are pretty well my minimum. I like to have a stack of critical, health and magic myself, for my sorc. I make weapon damage, weapon critical and stamina for my NB son.

You can make some crazy useful stuff. Hang 3 reduce cooldown by 5 sec, bling and make 14 sec potions and you can run almost full time.

I forget the last time I used 2 reagents. I always use 3, better XP for one.

Srugzal

dharbert wrote: »

KhajitFurTrader wrote: »

Is it just me, or are all of the figures given only for two reagents?

What about the three reagents combinations? Doesn't this change the whole picture in a non-trivial way?

Example: White Cap is stated to have no beneficial effect at all when combined with only one other component. But White Cap combined with Bugloss and Columbine gives Restore Health and Increase Spell Resistance, while it reduces Spell Damage.

If you had read my post, I stated that the chart was only for two-reagent combinations.

There are only 306 possible two-reagent combinations. However, there are 4,896 possible three-reagent combinations. There's no way I can make an image of a chart that size, not to mention it would take me days or weeks to figure all of them out.

There is an excellent App called "ESO Tools" that will do this calculation . There are 261 2- and 3- ingredient potions, including those with bad results. There's no point in considering those with no results at all. As you know, reagent order doesn't matter, so it isn't actually an 18 x 18 x 18 grid, as you're suggesting.

If you exclude the poisons, there are 154 possibilities. There may be slightly fewer, because there's a known problem with Snakeblood.

If you don't like the app results, take it up with the designer, I'm just relaying the numbers.

Look here: ESO Tools on Google Play

Alchemy is very bag-economical compared to other professions. 18 bag slots for every possible reagent, plus a couple, 3 more for solvents you're likely to use... that's a pretty compact toolkit.

Srugzal

dharbert wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

The major flaw in this rant thread, is the assumption that there should be a higher rate of beneficial potions. Seriously? 74 potions with nothing but benefits is sub par?

Does actually think that 74 potions without negative effects is bad? He'll no!

The whole point of the Alchemy skill is that you can't just add items together willy nilly.

The beneficial potions without negative effects should be the minority.

Ok, first of all, it's not a rant thread. First and foremost this thread was to bring to the devs attention some of the things that are wrong or not currently working with Alchemy, and how it can be made better. Secondly, I made that chart to help others out with leveling their Alchemy or figuring out combinations.

Yes, there are several potions that are beneficial only. There are also several potions that are not working correctly, or as well as they should.

Crafting a level 3 invis potion gives the same benefit as crafting a VR5 invis potion. It shouldn't be that way. All potions should scale according to the level of solvent used.

You should be careful about this invisibility business. People are getting the impression that other effects don't scale either, when they most certainly do.

As far as I know, only invisibility and unstoppable fail to scale; I'm sure somebody will correct me if I'm wrong. Now you have to ask the right question here. I think that simply pointing out the facts isn't enough. You haven't asked whether this is a design intent--whether "invulnerability" effects like invisible and unstoppable are limited for a reason.

Unfortunately, it's a question only a dev can answer. I suppose the best way to get an answer is to file a /bug report about the "unscalable" effects. Have you done this? Has anyone?

Samadhi

Srugzal wrote: »

...
As far as I know, only invisibility and unstoppable fail to scale; I'm sure somebody will correct me if I'm wrong. Now you have to ask the right question here. I think that simply pointing out the facts isn't enough. You haven't asked whether this is a design intent--whether "invulnerability" effects like invisible and unstoppable are limited for a reason.
...

Other effects that fail to scale:
Speed
Weapon Crit
Spell Crit
Detection


Effects that do scale
Recover Health, Magicka and Stamina
Increase Spell Power
Increase Weapon Power
Increase Spell Resistance
Increase Armour

Srugzal wrote: »

...
Unfortunately, it's a question only a dev can answer. I suppose the best way to get an answer is to file a /bug report about the "unscalable" effects. Have you done this? Has anyone?

I did during Beta.
I did again shortly after launch.
Then I gave up hope of seeing the effects fixed.

Srugzal

Samadhi wrote: »

Srugzal wrote: »

...
As far as I know, only invisibility and unstoppable fail to scale; I'm sure somebody will correct me if I'm wrong. Now you have to ask the right question here. I think that simply pointing out the facts isn't enough. You haven't asked whether this is a design intent--whether "invulnerability" effects like invisible and unstoppable are limited for a reason.
...

Other effects that fail to scale:
Speed
Weapon Crit
Spell Crit
Detection

Speed and detection I would argue work like temporary passives and already quite large to begin with. The crits increase something that is already a chance percentage, by 22%. You might want to argue that they should scale, like the restore potions do. You haven't made more than the general case; why should the crits be changed? Why is 22% increase not enough? Or are you arguing that the effect should last longer? Which is it?

You want them all to act like the restoration potions, which are absolute numbers. Make a case for that, if you can. The fact that these effects are more like passives than restore effects is clearly by design. Does it need changing? Maybe. Does it make potions lame or useless? Hardly.

Samadhi

Srugzal wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Srugzal wrote: »

...
As far as I know, only invisibility and unstoppable fail to scale; I'm sure somebody will correct me if I'm wrong. Now you have to ask the right question here. I think that simply pointing out the facts isn't enough. You haven't asked whether this is a design intent--whether "invulnerability" effects like invisible and unstoppable are limited for a reason.
...

Other effects that fail to scale:
Speed
Weapon Crit
Spell Crit
Detection

Speed and detection I would argue work like temporary passives and already quite large to begin with. The crits increase something that is already a chance percentage, by 22%. You might want to argue that they should scale, like the restore potions do. You haven't made more than the general case; why should the crits be changed? Why is 22% increase not enough? Or are you arguing that the effect should last longer? Which is it?

You want them all to act like the restoration potions, which are absolute numbers. Make a case for that, if you can. The fact that these effects are more like passives than restore effects is clearly by design. Does it need changing? Maybe. Does it make potions lame or useless? Hardly.

Actually, I think that the potion effects should start at lower values, scale up to their current value, and increase slightly when v10 water becomes available.
It doesn't make a lot of sense that I can craft a level 3 alt a potion that provides 1 Spell Damage and 26 Spell Critical. (In contrast to v5 which provides me 24 Spell Damage and 26 Spell Critical).
*Note: my numbers when viewing the potions are increased by the Nightblade Catalyst passive

I think Invisibility and Unstoppable should start at their current values and scale up (perhaps even by just .25 or .5 seconds per solvent level).

poodlemasterb16_ESO

Spell crit does work. I go from 18% to nearly 50% when I do one and it does work.

Critical is only like 50% damage extra anyway. Helps on the 8000 health beasties though.

Srugzal

Samadhi wrote: »

Srugzal wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Srugzal wrote: »

...
As far as I know, only invisibility and unstoppable fail to scale; I'm sure somebody will correct me if I'm wrong. Now you have to ask the right question here. I think that simply pointing out the facts isn't enough. You haven't asked whether this is a design intent--whether "invulnerability" effects like invisible and unstoppable are limited for a reason.
...

Other effects that fail to scale:
Speed
Weapon Crit
Spell Crit
Detection

Speed and detection I would argue work like temporary passives and already quite large to begin with. The crits increase something that is already a chance percentage, by 22%. You might want to argue that they should scale, like the restore potions do. You haven't made more than the general case; why should the crits be changed? Why is 22% increase not enough? Or are you arguing that the effect should last longer? Which is it?

You want them all to act like the restoration potions, which are absolute numbers. Make a case for that, if you can. The fact that these effects are more like passives than restore effects is clearly by design. Does it need changing? Maybe. Does it make potions lame or useless? Hardly.

Actually, I think that the potion effects should start at lower values, scale up to their current value, and increase slightly when v10 water becomes available.
It doesn't make a lot of sense that I can craft a level 3 alt a potion that provides 1 Spell Damage and 26 Spell Critical. (In contrast to v5 which provides me 24 Spell Damage and 26 Spell Critical).
*Note: my numbers when viewing the potions are increased by the Nightblade Catalyst passive

I think Invisibility and Unstoppable should start at their current values and scale up (perhaps even by just .25 or .5 seconds per solvent level).

See, the thing about the crits is that the damage itself isn't absolute, it's based on the damage values for the character, so a crit for a level 10 character is much less in absolute damage than the same crit for a VR10 character, assuming they're carrying appropriate weapons/stats. So the damage values handle the scaling.

When you're level 3, 1 damage is almost a 10% increase. When you're VR5, 24 is actually more like 15-20%, figuring non-crit values. So the scaling is built in.

Like I mentioned, I would like to know why invisibility and unstoppable are static, too. Perhaps /bug would uncover the real reasons.

Code2501

Invis does not scale with level because dev decision. Bad decision imo but there it is. You can get a slight buff to duration with 3 invis reagents stacked but its still short. (Albeit longer than NB skill)

Evandus

Samadhi wrote: »

dharbert wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

My concern has always been that putting points in the Snake Blood passive would cause these potions to only give me the Move Speed increase; Speed is represented as a white/positive effect, while Invisibility is represented as a black/negative effect.
Alchemically Invisibility is represented as a negative effect that can be applied to beneficial potions.

I don't know about that. I've never invested points in Snake Blood as I don't see any point in crafting a potion that has negative side effects in the first place.

That is unfortunate, I was hoping someone had tested it.

I think it was designed with the idea that some beneficial effects are available only in a mix that contains negative effects, unless a third reagent is added. Kind of an alchemical cost-reduction passive that doesn't actually hold appeal.

The Increase Armour Potion is only available with a Reduce Weapon Damage effect attached to it. (Mountain Flower + Imp Stool)
Adding Blessed Thistle to the mix gets rid of the Weapon Damage reduction.

Similarily, Increase Spell Resistance is only available when combined with Reduce Spell Damage (Bugloss + White Cap)
Adding Corn Flower to the mix gets rid of the Spell Damage reduction.

Armour and Spell Resistance aren't really all that beneficial though; by contrast, the Invisibility mixture is. I wouldn't want to put points into a passive that cancels Invisibility just for these buffs when I can throw an extra reagent in the mix.

Not sure if this is helpful, but I have made many 100 stacks of invis pots (among others) with the snakeblood passive active. There were no issues past having difficulty selling them, lol.

Enodoc

I agree that Invisibility, Unstoppable, Speed, Weapon Crit, Spell Crit and Detection should have some sort of scaling with potion quality. A Lvl 3 version of these potions is exactly the same as a Lvl 50 version, and I don't see the point in that. Higher levels of these potions should have their effects last longer.

I also agree that the Alchemy table should say "No result" rather than "Unknown potion" if you've already tried a combination that fails.

Tankqull

and when they are at it reduce the number of drop potions to be at lvl 5 in between two craftable potions(lvl 5, 15, 25 you get it) instead of every lvl but craft potion lvls (11,12,13,14,15,16,17 .... ).

LtCrunch

Alysta wrote: »

I would like to see the number of reagents increased to include lootable items from various enemies. Like Troll Fat. I'm a bosmer that chooses to abide by the Green Pact, so all of my reagents would have to be purchased. And technically, I could not even drink my potions after they are made. Very frustrating.

The green pact is only something Bosmer have to abide by within Valenwood, nowhere else. So just don't pick up reagents/ harm nature within Valenwood zones. Everywhere else is fair game.

Samadhi

Evandus wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

dharbert wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

My concern has always been that putting points in the Snake Blood passive would cause these potions to only give me the Move Speed increase; Speed is represented as a white/positive effect, while Invisibility is represented as a black/negative effect.
Alchemically Invisibility is represented as a negative effect that can be applied to beneficial potions.

I don't know about that. I've never invested points in Snake Blood as I don't see any point in crafting a potion that has negative side effects in the first place.

That is unfortunate, I was hoping someone had tested it.

I think it was designed with the idea that some beneficial effects are available only in a mix that contains negative effects, unless a third reagent is added. Kind of an alchemical cost-reduction passive that doesn't actually hold appeal.

The Increase Armour Potion is only available with a Reduce Weapon Damage effect attached to it. (Mountain Flower + Imp Stool)
Adding Blessed Thistle to the mix gets rid of the Weapon Damage reduction.

Similarily, Increase Spell Resistance is only available when combined with Reduce Spell Damage (Bugloss + White Cap)
Adding Corn Flower to the mix gets rid of the Spell Damage reduction.

Armour and Spell Resistance aren't really all that beneficial though; by contrast, the Invisibility mixture is. I wouldn't want to put points into a passive that cancels Invisibility just for these buffs when I can throw an extra reagent in the mix.

Not sure if this is helpful, but I have made many 100 stacks of invis pots (among others) with the snakeblood passive active. There were no issues past having difficulty selling them, lol.

Thank you for the insight.
I wonder if this is because Invisibility is considered a special instance, or if Snake Blood passive simply hasn't been fixed since Beta. I remember seeing reports of it having no effect.

Blkadr

I think the hireling should bring you water. I can't find any damn water that's not level 5. If I can't make potions, I can't GET that far.