Elephant42 wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

-snip-I don't really see how one can be so unlucky, except heavy competition by other people gathering materials. I easily collect a dozen ores just riding around Wrothgar, admiring the landscape, and I don't stop at nodes all that often (Heavy Sacks drop them, too). Without Keen Eye even. So I can't really agree with your math there.-snip-

Perhaps it's you who have been excessively _lucky_ as this does not at all correspond to my experience, nor to that of most of the posters in this thread from the way I read it.

And you have also hit a nerve with your node competition comment - if the drop rate is this bad on the relatively lightly loaded PTS, imagine what it will be like once all and sundry rush in there when it goes live

I considered just being lucky, so I just now spent another full hour riding through Wrothgar, gathering nodes.

* I only gathered VR15/16 nodes. I did not touch Nightwood/Voidstone/Voidbloom.
* I had the Master Gatherer perk. It will not speed up overall gathering by a ton, but it's convenient.
* I rode a horse maxed out in speed.

The results are:

Ancient Silk nodes: 13
Ruby Ash nodes: 5
Rubedite Ore nodes: 14

Ancient Silk recovered: 44 raw, 39 refined
Ruby Ash recovered: 19 raw, 7 refined
Rubedite Ingot recovered: 43 raw, 34 refined

It's notable that Ruby Ash is much rarer than the other nodes. While this could be a fluke, I don't think it's because you see less wood nodes in general. I saw plenty of Nightwood, but only the 5 Ruby Ash listed above. I don't want to say it's a bug, as that would require more testing, but it's noteworthy.

Considering competition, I did not see anyone else during that time. However, I'm not convinced other players gathering as well will be a detriment: The more nodes will be harvested, by yourself or other players, the higher the frequency of high ranking nodes that will spawn. Because I only gathered the high ranking nodes, I rode past a lot of ungathered lower ranking nodes which did get a new chance to spawn as high ranking ones. If you plan to gather along a fixed route, it would be advisable to collect everything.

I also noticed that the further north you go in Wrothgar, nodes in general become really sparse. I could have probably gotten more if I had stayed south of Orsinium, but I also wanted to visit some areas I hadn't seen before (the zone is bloody gorgeous).

Overall, I came back even more convinced that the current rate is fine. The return is actually great. It would have taken me significantly longer to get the same amount of refined materials by grinding in IC for gear to deconstruct. If I'd trade all materials for the one I want, I could get ~80 in an hour. 2 hours of gathering, and I could make myself a VR16 cuirass. That is incredibly fast. 2 hours of gathering per day and you have yourself a full VR16 set within a week. I'd say gathering nodes is now the fastest way to get the new materials when playing solo.

Ok, so first off @Faulgor I would like to say thank you for not going down the "we disagree, so let's start insulting each other" route, and for taking the time to read and respond to my thoughts. Secondly, Long post incoming. (sorry!)

Faulgor wrote: »

angelyn wrote: »

I understand what you are saying And everyone is entitled to their own viewpoint. For me, a casual player, crafting used to be fun. I don't enjoy the grind and RNG that is replacing the old system , especially if the only reason for the implementation of said new system is to drive players to the crown store.

That's the point, I don't feel that it's a grind. It takes longer, yes, but it doesn't feel unreasonable to me, and I'm definitely not a hardcore grinder. Maybe I just want it less? I don't see the need to rush to VR16 gear when VR14 is still fine, especially for casual players. Despite all the mats I have, the only VR16 piece I have is a bow on my stam sorc.
Of course I'll be the first to call ZOS on their bullhonk should they add crafting mats to the Crown Store, but I don't see that happening.

I've had a look at your later post on this thread, which shows that you have had a vastly different experience to many others trying to obtain mats on PTS. I'm going to look into that after addressing this post..(don't want to get confused trying to quote 2 posts ) I will say that your experience does look positive indeed, compared to what other people have experienced. I still have V14 gear and am not rushing to get it. I would just like to know that it is achievable for a casual like me in under..say a year. (But that comes down to finding out what made your experience harvesting nodes so successful compared to others.)

In addition, crafting mats are already in the crown store in the form of malachite, with gold scale (akiviri set) soon incoming. For me, I don't so much mind that it is there, my main concern is where this will stop. Since any crafting aspect that is being altered to take much longer, ends up in the crown store. What's next? Perfect roe?Potent Nirn? If V16 mats end up in there, I will join you calling ZOS on bullhonk

Faulgor wrote: »

angelyn wrote: »

For your average PVE casual, we used to be able to grab nodes while questing and be able to craft ourselves some gear. Whether or not this is correct im not debating. This is the crafting system that has been there since the beginning of the game. Ive been enjoying that system since beta. Paying my sub for the game that i enjoy playing since beta.

I don't really see what's stopping you to gather nodes while questing - but some people already call that grinding. It seems that anything someone likes doing is collecting, and anything they don't is called grinding. I find that hard to argue with. Nevertheless, you could trade the mats you collect for VR15/16 mats. I get the impression that people arguing against the rarity of these mats want to do absolutely everything themselves, but I actually like that this encourages to interact and trade with other players.

My point is gathering nodes while questing, will result in significantly less materials than if you went around with the sole purpose of harvesting materials. Therefore, if it remains so time consuming to farm mats with that sole intent, its going to be much worse if only harvesting mats when you come across them while questing.

I absolutely agree with you on the trading aspect, which is why I traded my rubedo leather away (since I don't need it for my main.) What I will point out though, is even if you are trading with another player, you would still need to find enough to trade on a 1 for 1 basis, so although trading may alleviate getting the specific type of material you want faster, it doesn't make getting the required amount of materials either to make your gear or to be able to trade with other players faster.

*Note, if we find out what made your experience so much more successful, then perhaps there is a way to ensure that everyone can get the mats at the same rate you do. If that happens, I'll be happy as long as they don't add them to the crownstore.

Faulgor wrote: »

angelyn wrote: »

On PTS, it has taken some people 4 hours to find 3 nodes. Or if they have found nodes, 90% of them were not V16, despite having maxed out the crafting passive. Using this mat/node per hour rate:

I don't really see how one can be so unlucky, except heavy competition by other people gathering materials. I easily collect a dozen ores just riding around Wrothgar, admiring the landscape, and I don't stop at nodes all that often (Heavy Sacks drop them, too). Without Keen Eye even. So I can't really agree with your math there. Not to mention that you, again, can sell the other mats you gather, especially if you are a dedicated crafter with all professions maxed out, so you can trade your ruby ash for ancient silk or whatever you actually need.

The situation is only getting better for casual players. More sources for the new materials open not only up to you, but everyone, and prices will drop noticably.

So after this post, I'm looking at your next one, which shows how you've had a different experience to the majority who have posted about this. I can see a large disparity between your experience and some other people's and I have some idea why, which I'll go into after this.

Faulgor wrote: »

angelyn wrote: »

If the game had advertised that they would either have/introduce a korean style grind for crafting, I never would have bought it. It was sold to me as something different, and I dont like the direction it's heading. Hence why I'm providing this feedback. If they continue with this, players like me will uninstall. Some players may like the korean grind style , but I doubt many who purchased ESO would have, if it was made clear that this is the direction the game would take.

And I'm sorry, but this is very, very far from Korean style "grinding". If they hadn't implemented something like this, players like me who appreciate having something to work for would and indeed did leave the game. For the longest, longest time, all I did was log in to feed my horse. Now I'm gathering materials, doing daily writs, deconstructing white trash items, buying motif pages from other players, actually crafting things. For everybody else who is intimidated by the material requirements, there is the quite easily attainable VR15 gear.
I don't see how they could have gone for a better compromise.

Players like me were already gathering materials, doing daily writs, deconstructing white trash items, buying motifs and crafting things (since beta). While I am happy that you now have found something appealing enough to make you log in more, for me the change in crafting has tipped the balance from "fun" to "chore". Of course everyone has different tastes when it comes to what they like to do in game, but I reckon(opinion of course) there will be more people unhappy and unsubscribing/uninstalling if crafting continues in the (admittedly perceived) chore direction, than the amount of players that are now subscribing/logging in again specifically because the system is changing.

EDIT: Wanted to demonstrate what feels like grind to me(I did the math for this too):

angelyn wrote: »

Agree

Most notably the (multiple layers!) of grind introduced with glass motif/style materials, means it can take months/opening atleast 90 chests/8000 mats and 70- 100k gold to obtain ( minimum ) a glass motif and suffient style materials to craft a set.

Once you have the precious motif, then you only need 1190 V16 materials( either bought with TV stones or 1 per mob drop), and 7-9 enchanting runes purchased with TV stones to craft a set.

*Next post incoming, looking at what may have contributed to your success, where so many others have failed. (Posts separated due to wall of text )

They've killed writs. They created ANOTHER grind.... Heads up Zenimax, grinding is not fun. Not sure why you've slapped us in the face with another.

angelyn wrote: »

LARGE DISPARITY BETWEEN HARVESTING EXPERIENCES- WHAT IS CONTRIBUTING TO THIS?

Ok now I look at the next post where you have shown a more successful time of harvesting mats than the majority of people who already posted on this. I'm hoping that if we can figure out what contributed, perhaps with a few tweaks from ZOS, all of us could feel successful in this endeavour:

Faulgor wrote: »

Elephant42 wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

-snip-I don't really see how one can be so unlucky, except heavy competition by other people gathering materials. I easily collect a dozen ores just riding around Wrothgar, admiring the landscape, and I don't stop at nodes all that often (Heavy Sacks drop them, too). Without Keen Eye even. So I can't really agree with your math there.-snip-

Perhaps it's you who have been excessively _lucky_ as this does not at all correspond to my experience, nor to that of most of the posters in this thread from the way I read it.

And you have also hit a nerve with your node competition comment - if the drop rate is this bad on the relatively lightly loaded PTS, imagine what it will be like once all and sundry rush in there when it goes live

I considered just being lucky, so I just now spent another full hour riding through Wrothgar, gathering nodes.

* I only gathered VR15/16 nodes. I did not touch Nightwood/Voidstone/Voidbloom.
* I had the Master Gatherer perk. It will not speed up overall gathering by a ton, but it's convenient.
* I rode a horse maxed out in speed.

The results are:

Ancient Silk nodes: 13
Ruby Ash nodes: 5
Rubedite Ore nodes: 14

Ancient Silk recovered: 44 raw, 39 refined
Ruby Ash recovered: 19 raw, 7 refined
Rubedite Ingot recovered: 43 raw, 34 refined

It's notable that Ruby Ash is much rarer than the other nodes. While this could be a fluke, I don't think it's because you see less wood nodes in general. I saw plenty of Nightwood, but only the 5 Ruby Ash listed above. I don't want to say it's a bug, as that would require more testing, but it's noteworthy.

Considering competition, I did not see anyone else during that time. However, I'm not convinced other players gathering as well will be a detriment: The more nodes will be harvested, by yourself or other players, the higher the frequency of high ranking nodes that will spawn. Because I only gathered the high ranking nodes, I rode past a lot of ungathered lower ranking nodes which did get a new chance to spawn as high ranking ones. If you plan to gather along a fixed route, it would be advisable to collect everything.

I also noticed that the further north you go in Wrothgar, nodes in general become really sparse. I could have probably gotten more if I had stayed south of Orsinium, but I also wanted to visit some areas I hadn't seen before (the zone is bloody gorgeous).

Overall, I came back even more convinced that the current rate is fine. The return is actually great. It would have taken me significantly longer to get the same amount of refined materials by grinding in IC for gear to deconstruct. If I'd trade all materials for the one I want, I could get ~80 in an hour. 2 hours of gathering, and I could make myself a VR16 cuirass. That is incredibly fast. 2 hours of gathering per day and you have yourself a full VR16 set within a week. I'd say gathering nodes is now the fastest way to get the new materials when playing solo.

So here are the possible reasons I can think of as to why you have had a more positive/successful experience than other players:

• May I ask if on the character you harvested with, you had the following passives from the Lover Tree in Champion points system?:
  
  *Plentiful Harvest Rank 10 Grants you a 10% chance to double the yield from normal resource nodes.
  *Master Gatherer Rank 75 Reduces gathering times by 50%.
  
  
• Based on your experiences, some nodes seem to be rarer than others, namely Ruby Ash
  
• Competition, as you say, you were on at a time when there weren't other players around. The disparity in experiences could actually be down to this factor alone. (I'm imagining everyone logging on during prime time to farm nodes- we already know that there are less nodes in general as well compared to other zones)
  
• You do mention the respawning of nodes. I wonder how fast they respawn compared to nodes in other zones?
  
• Do we know for sure that the V14 nodes, definitely have a chance of respawning as a higher one? I thought that (from a response from ZOS), the amount of V15/16 nodes were fixed. (They could still rotate around though)
  
• In your previous post, you said that these changes have encouraged you to do writs and craft things. May I ask if you were crafting say V14 stuff before IC hit? The only reason I'm thinking is if other people are comparing rarity to V14 crafting, and you are not comparing to V14 crafting (as you hadn't experienced it), this could explain some of the differences of opinion if you can see where I'm coming from. IE
  
  *People that were max crafters before IC hit: will possibly be comparing the rarity in Orsinium/IC of V15/16 mats to the rarity of V14 mats before IC hit (and thinking "OMG where did all the mats go, I used to farm x mats per hour and now I can only get y per hour)
  *People that became interested in crafting after IC hit: will possibly be comparing the rarity of V15/V16 mats in Orcinium compared to IC (and thinking "yay! much improved-I used to get x mats per hour and now I can get y mats per hour").
  
  
• I wonder if your technique of only gathering the highest ones has something to do with it. Maybe if people are gathering other nodes as well, they get less chance of hitting the V16 nodes . (I think ZOS said that people should be getting them in some kind of ratio).
  
• Location- definitely seems to influence availability of nodes.

What I can see at the moment, is that there do seem to be some factors that influence how successful people are . If everyone had your experience I wouldn't be worrying (provided that V16 mats don't end up in crown store and I still wouldn't do writs) I don't mind having to work a little harder, provided that it is still fun and I have a chance of crafting a set within the next year .

* I had both the Plentiful Harvest and the Master Gatherer perk, yes. Usually nodes yield 3 raw materials, sometimes 4. On three occasions, I got 6 due to the Plentiful Harvest perk, so overall 9 more raw materials than you would get without the perk (3 Ancient Silk, 3 Ruby Ash, 3 Rubedite Ore).

* Player population could very well skew results into one direction or another. So don't take my words for it, everyone go test themselves on the PTS. That's what it's for!

* I'm fairly sure the high ranking nodes are not fixed, that means any node has a chance to be a high ranking one. Otherwise, gathering would become even easier, as you would only have to check the ones you know to give the correct material grade.

* I've been crafting VR14 before IC, yes. All my characters wear gear I crafted. But I have to say I never found it difficult to create gear from level 1 to VR14, because when I lacked the materials, it was easy to buy them from guild stores. I rarely bothered to gather the materials myself, because it didn't seem an efficient use of my time (I've started gathering nodes since IC for daily writs because the prices for materials have increased dramatically).

* Gathering lower ranking nodes shouldn't affect your chances of finding high ranking nodes, at least not as far as the game mechanics work.

* As I said, northern Wrothgar seems to have a lot less nodes in general, so location definitely matters.

I haven't taken a look at the new writs yet, so I can't comment on those. I'll check them out in a bit.

One thing I love about ESO is the flexibility in trying out different types of builds on the same toon just by changing gear, not having to reroll a different class like most games. If crafting continues is this direction, that's a huge fun spoiler. ZOS, you're making Lotro look good to me again! Please don't let crating become pointless and boring on live. Let me retain my sanity by having crafting that is within reason and, dare I say, fun! Remember, it's only one letter from PTS to PTSD.

pelennor_fields wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

I haven't taken a look at the new writs yet, so I can't comment on those. I'll check them out in a bit.

Please do - and post the results... I've read mixed information. I even read ZOS doesn't know - as people have been asked for multiple tiers. Thanks for the research work. Lol

Apparently you'll only get the new writs with a VR15/16 character, because I just get the same old writs with my VR14 template character, despite having all crafting professions maxed out. I'm not really keen on grinding those last two ranks on PTS, so it seems I'll have to wait until they copy EU characters.

Hopefully somebody else can test the new writs more thorougly until then.

Some more enlightening data courtesy of @helediron. After 3 days, not enough mats for a writ..might be enough for 2 pieces of V16 equipment. Roughly 80% of nodes don't drop V16 mats even if you have the required passives.

helediron wrote: »

After spending three days in Wrothgar, these are my harvesting and crafting results. Just warning the resuts are sad, real sad. I am no noob crafter, have all professions maxed on seven toons, have all traits, styles, and harvested hundreds of thousands raw mats, hundreds of nirncrux, yadayada.

Harvesting: lower tier, upper tier (upper t. drop rate%)
voidstone ore 416, rubedite ore 65 (14%)
raw void bloom 389, raw ancestor silk 92 (19%)
rough nightwood 498, rough ruby ash 137 (22%)
shadowhide 81, rubedo leather 37
43 casserite sand

18 hours /played time with vr14 template doing quests, exploring, several hours of serious harvesting. Most of harvesting was done at EU morning time where nobody else was around, keen eyes maxed. All nodes were there, and i verified this by multiple passes over time. In other words, harvest conditions couldn't be better. All mats were saved for writs. None was spared for equipment crafting.

Refining and taking gear writs:
60 rubedite ore -> 53 rubedite. I couldn't finish BS writ.
130 rough ruby ash -> 118 sanded ruby ash. Finished writ with 80 ash left.
90 raw ancestor silk -> 74 ancestor silk (no writ)
30 rubedo hide scraps -> 23 rubedo leather. I couldn't finish clothing writ.

I can't finish daily writs after spending three days in Wrothgar. Worst was rubedo leather writ. I was able to do one single pair of bracers, one single item out of three required!

This just isn't gonna work. Something must be done.
- vr15+ mats have to drop 100%
- Overall acquirement of vr15+ mats have to increased tenfold overall.
- vr16 mats requirements must drop drastically.

Hagebutte wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

pelennor_fields wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

I haven't taken a look at the new writs yet, so I can't comment on those. I'll check them out in a bit.

Please do - and post the results... I've read mixed information. I even read ZOS doesn't know - as people have been asked for multiple tiers. Thanks for the research work. Lol

Apparently you'll only get the new writs with a VR15/16 character, because I just get the same old writs with my VR14 template character, despite having all crafting professions maxed out. I'm not really keen on grinding those last two ranks on PTS, so it seems I'll have to wait until they copy EU characters.

Hopefully somebody else can test the new writs more thorougly until then.

I also played a V14 template character and got the new writs that require highest tier mats, so being V15/16 can't be a prerequisite for getting the new writs.

The issue was that I had to buy Orsinium from the Crown Store. ESO plus and running around Wrothgar for days was apparently not enough to get the new crafting writs. Looks like a bug (or, considering how awful the new writs are, feature).

I ran another half hour and got a ton of Ruby Ash (however, almost no Ancestor Silk. RNG is amazingly random), so I had enough for a Blacksmith and Woodworking writ. Behold:



I don't see anyone doing these writs. But the worst thing is, you can't get the lower ranking writs anymore once you buy the DLC. Unless you reset your skills everytime you want to do your daily. Which means nobody will do the lower ranking writs anymore either. This is not a huge loss, because the only reason people were doing writs (as far as I know) was the Glass Motif, which they are already selling in the Crown Store.

So, yeah. Daily crafting writs are dead.

Thanks Zenimax, you guys really thought this through, ya bunch of turkeys!

nimander99 wrote: »

So ZoS is now adding RNG to crafting nodes... I'm not happy about this.

Is RNG like the dev lazy design or what? Can't figure out a creative way to make something difficult to obtain so we'll slap it behind an RNG-Wall(TM).

Further down the "Kick the Crafters while they're down" road I see. Great.

Azura knows we all deserve it. For, like, having the audacity to play the game as designed.

I'm subbed longer than that.... But hopefully they will listen to the voices of their community and make changes before November. There have already been many changes in the game (for better; mostly) and the developers have shown a willingness to remain pliable.

Please don't kill V16 writs! Please don't kill new motif options outside the crown store!

OtarTheMad wrote: »

They MUST lower the cost of making V16 stuff. If they don't people will just play something else.

This may be true.

People are already selling VR16 mats as low as 350 gold per piece. Wait couple month and its 100 per piece. Only thing what Zen needs to do is to give reason to go to IC and its ok. People have whined they dont have gold, this could be one way to fix it.

BlackEar wrote: »

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

It gives me a sense that I should maybe do something more worthwhile with my freaking time instead of doing virtual chores in a MMO.

I second this. A few weeks ago, on a whim, I back-tracked into Caldwell's Silver with my main to complete a few quests I'd missed. I had FUN. It was what I bought ESO in the first place to do.

But lately I've felt like I can't do that any more. If I want a chance at a Glass Motif fragment, I have to grind for materials to do Writs. If I want a chance at Xivkyn, I need to grind IC. If I want a chance at Akaviri, I actually have to start PvPing now and I still probably won't have enough AP to outfit my character with it even if I skip all the weapons she doesn't use.

I play Elder Scrolls because I like to quest and explore. I also like to craft. I don't like having to give up the first in order to do the second.

You having fun questing is in no way related to the progression time line of the crafting. They are seperate. I love questing too and I love gearing my player. What I hate is getting instantly the best gear available. Sucks all the fun out of it.

If I wanted instant gratifaction I would play another game.
Others called this chores. They are not chores to me, and those likeminded, we enjoy the progression. It doesn't mean we can play hours upon hours every day. What it MEANS is that we ENJOY the journey.

Which is what Elder Scrolls is all about - THE JOURNEY. I enjoy that. I enjoy that the crafting gives me a sense of this.

The mentality of many player's in here seem to be that they want EVERYTHING and they want it RIGHT NOW. It simply would ruin the game if this was the case.
Unfortunately, all they see is what they can't have instantly. A shame gamers have become this way.

I think you either misunderstand the point of this thread and the jist of what is being said or have a dramatically different isea of fun than the rest of us. I am fine with the highest level gear taking longer to obtain and longer to craft. What I am NOT okay with is having to spend over 300,000 gold or 30 plus game hours to fulfill one writ. Writs have been a part of my gaming routine 4 months now and I enjoy the time I spend and the rewards. Sometimes I have to go to extra links to obtain the materials, like this morning when I had to spend some time stealing night wood. Spending 30 minutes or so to fulfill my 6 writs is perfectly reasonable and has been an enjoyable activity. Even if the rng is a little off it is still nice to have a chance at a new motif. With the state of the availability of V16 crafting materials daily writs and the resulting rewards will be dead to me and thousands of other players.

I want options for new motifs besides spending hundreds of hours grinding for them or spending $40 of my hard earned cash when i am already paying $15 a month. :P