How the Champion System is a Complete Overhaul of Game Numbers

Dominoid

Hopefully this post makes sense. Enjoy. Please see my other Champion System posts with the links at the bottom. There is no TL/DR.

Note: This is my understanding of how “numbers” will work in the Champion System in ESO. This is based upon an extensive review of all publicly released information and the audio from the Champion System portion of Guild Summit 2014.

“The Elder Staves Online” and “Sticks and Skirts” are just some of the the less than flattering sentiments people have of the current balance in ESO and to a certain extent, they are correct. ZOS has been trying hard to balance the game and indeed every role is now viable throughout. From the lowly noob to end-game “raiders”, you will find every play style, every armor type and every weapon used but “Sticks and Skirts” is still number one. The main reason for this is how ESO currently crunches the numbers behind the scenes and it is this number crunching that is becoming extinct when the bulk of the Champion System rolls out.

“What you may know is [The Champion System] is a progression system . . . past level 50 . . . that provides significant growth opportunity for your account. What you may not know is it is a COMPLETE overhaul of game numbers and the way some abilities work.” - Paul Sage

It is the last statement by Paul above that I will ATTEMPT to address in this post.

Why the complete overhaul? Because the Champion System (CS) cannot simply be put on top of the current game. It would be irresponsible to do so. The CS will be changing the overall effectiveness of the player within the game and if they simply overlaid the CS on top of the current game they would also need to increase the overall monster effectiveness by that same percentage. They have to make sure the game has parity to challenge the players otherwise content would not be fun. With this in mind, no matter how they slice it (we’ll be talking about pie later) a complete rebalance is necessary. Furthermore if they are going to have to do all of this, it is a good time to correct other issues with balance they are having. This is also the reason why the CS is taking so much time. It is not a simple process.

Another reason for the overhaul is adding additional points to soft capped abilities would be bad. The numbers need to mean something. A soft capped ability provides diminishing returns once the soft cap is reached and there are reasons for that which we will cover briefly but if you add an enchantment for 50 points to an ability that is soft capped, you don’t see the full 50 points and that needs to change.

Understand that by you reading this you are most likely in the top 5% of the game. 80% of players never enter a gaming forum. They don’t min/max. They simply play. They most likely aren’t as skilled or informed as “we” all are. That is an important thing to understand as I proceed with an occasional generalization.

So why do we even have the current system? Mainly because it helps prevent bad builds and gives complete freedom of how to play.

This game is built upon, in part, your ability to dodge, interrupt and block and knowing when to do all those things. None of that is really hard but for some people it actually is. Add on top of that the freedom to build your character the way you want to build your character and you end up with people who create what they consider a “bad build”. Because they have to get past both player dexterity skills as well as the character build skills. These factors resulted in a gulf in beta where there were a bunch of players saying, “The game is too hard” and another group, probably those reading this article saying, “The game is too easy.” So ZOS created a freedom of how to play which allows players to go over limits - soft caps.

Let’s try to dig into that last statement a little more. Imagine you have 150 armor points total that you can have. What ZOS designed was a system to allow players to get to that armor total in a lot of different ways. So not just the armor you wear, but the abilities you use, the potions you use, the enchantments you use, etc. The sum of all those moving parts actually allows players to go over that complete total of 150 armor points reaching and exceeding the soft cap. Now by allowing people to go over that total it allows players to reach maximum effectiveness pretty easily. But by allowing players to reach maximum effectiveness pretty easily it creates a scenario where players are able to use the system to their greatest effect. This is what leads to light armor wearers who are somehow able to get to the top of the armor food chain. This is why you see light armor tanks and things like that. That naturally wasn’t ZOS’s intention with the system. It was designed to help those players that needed assistance and balance out “bad builds”.

What are some other shortcomings of the current system? Mainly there are no trade-offs or decision points in the current system. For example, why do I want to wear heavy armor when it seems so obvious that I should wear light armor which will allow me to still achieve max armor rating and receive the magicka benefits of wearing light armor? There is no real decision there.

The current system actually makes balance much harder for ZOS. When you start to allow things like light armor wearing tanks you have to get creative to make heavy armor more meaningful or attractive. Ideally the armor should mean the armor and that’s it - light for magicka, medium for stamina and heavy for health.

All of the things mentioned, among many others, are the reasons why the CS is also a complete overhaul of how game numbers work.

So how will the CS accomplish all this? The first thing most will notice is the CS completely removes all soft caps.

Next is the game system needs to get limits. But I thought we just removed soft caps? We did but hard caps still exist and need to. For example armor will cap out at 50% physical mitigation. Hard caps exist in-game now. 50% physical mitigation on the live servers is around 3,000 armor. Anything you put into armor past 3,000 is completely lost.

ZOS has to know for each game number what they want those top numbers to be. Once we know what those top numbers will be, we can then slice that pie - this will become clearer as we continue. Then once we have the limits and slice them up ZOS is going to have change all the numbers for abilities, item sets, enchantments, potions, etc that can modify those numbers.

Let’s hopefully clear things up by looking at the armor “pie” in the CS. Although we are going to focus on armor, there is a separate “pie” for every stat in the game - health, magicka, spell crit, frost resistance, etc. ZOS took this “pie slicing” activity for each stat and each pie is different. The numbers below are not illustrative these are actual numbers as they currently exist but are subject to change.

• 30% - Buffs (class/weapon skills and passives, potions, food) - They want to promote "active" combat so it gets the biggest chunk.
• 24% - The Armor itself - Legendary, max level, heavy armor gets the 24%. You cannot get to the 24% without all that is mentioned.
• 24% - 700 points in the CS passive. You can double the value of the armor itself by full CS investment. If you only got the armor slice to 15%, a 700 CS investment will only double the 15%.
• 5% - Item set bonuses
• 5% - Shield
• 4% - Reinforced armor trait (all pieces give 4% total)
• 4% - Enchants
• 2% - Defending weapon trait
• 2% - Mundas

As opposed to the current system you can now look at armor and see how it is all very neatly sectioned out into all the different traits, enchantments, buffs, etc.

Each “slice” is independent and static. Meaning if you don’t use any reinforced armor you cannot makeup that 4% armor amount in another category. It is “lost” for good or until you make/acquire different armor. If you don’t use a shield, you lose that 5%. The exception to these rules are racial passives and ultimates which are OUTSIDE the limits.

As mentioned ZOS must now change all the numbers for all the abilities, items and enchants to match the numbers in the pie. So knowing that Mundas Stones are 2% of the armor pie, they can set The Lady to increase armor by 2%. They can set a legendary, heavy armor VR14 shield to 5% and then scale all other armor types, quality grades and level shields accordingly. But the maximum a shield will ever contribute to the armor pie is 5%.

The only way to get 24% of the armor slice in the CS is to wear heavy armor. Medium and light armor will be a smaller chunk of the pie. Say 20% and 16% for illustrative purposes (made up numbers but reasonable). 700 points in the CS would double that percentage. So 48% for heavy, 40% for medium and 32% for light in the extrapolated example. You cannot get to maximum armor in the CS without wearing heavy, max level, legendary gear. Everything else will be less than that with no way to make up the difference. All other stats being equal, a heavy armor wearer will be a better physical mitigation tank than a light armor wearer. No exceptions. A Dragonknight by virtue of their passives and active skills and abilities in their class skill lines will be a better physical mitigation tank than a Sorcerer. No exceptions. This doesn't mean you can't be a light armor sorcerer tank. It just makes it much less optimal.

So what does all of this mean? You are going to have to make commitments to be the very best at a particular stat. Which is really going to give us more varied builds. The choices you make on your builds are going to be felt a lot more. They don’t expect everyone to go to the maximum in every stat. You’ll be effective if you don’t, but you’ll be the best if you do.

Now knowing what the players can do, ZOS can start adjusting all the monsters and all the abilities the monsters have to start balancing things like trials and Dragon Star Arena. This is another monumental undertaking.

Hopefully I was able to shed some light on what will be a big change. Let’s continue the discussion in the comments below.

Q. When will the Champion System be released?
A. The official answer is “When it’s ready.” Here is my educated guess. The Champion system will be released in update 1.7. There is quite a bit of groundwork that needs to be laid before the CS can be released. They can’t possibly release the CS with the constellations and all the required ability and skill changes as outlined in the post above all at once. That would be too much change at once for players to handle. They need to somewhat slow walk it. We have already seen some of the groundwork being laid in 1.5 with some ability and skill changes and the removal of abilities that can stack. This is all in preparation for the CS. Also as announced in an ESO Live episode as well as Guild Summit Audio on Skills and Combat Reponsiveness, 1.6 will contain significant skill and ability tweaks and changes. This is actually laying the final groundwork to skills and abilities before the CS implementation. This leads me to believe they will be in position to release the meat of the CS complete with constellations in 1.7.

Q. How will more casual players react to the scope of these changes? How will they understand it?
A. As mentioned above, the bulk of players simply play. But you are the top 5% so what I am about to say might not make sense to you. The reality is that most players won’t care or need to understand it. They simply trust that the system works, that their stats are adding naturally and they will continue to simply play.

My Other Posts on the Champion System:
Champion System to Add 25,200 HOURS of Character Advancement
Champion System Enlightenment: What Is It and How Will It Work?

Maverick827

If this is true, then I actually don't like the Champion system. 24% missing from some stats until you can max your CS is back-breaking. I thought it was going to be more subtle than that.

Those of us who have been playing since the beginning are ready for end-game to matter. We don't want to start another grind to relevance now: this past half year was the grind.

I play a tank. Not being able to reach 50% mitigation for many months is a huge nerf. I'm not sure I will care enough to get back to where I was. I thought the Champion system would allow for growth, not set us back.

Dominoid

Maverick827 wrote: »

If this is true, then I actually don't like the Champion system. 24% missing from some stats until you can max your CS is back-breaking. I thought it was going to be more subtle than that.

Those of us who have been playing since the beginning are ready for end-game to matter. We don't want to start another grind to relevance now: this past half year was the grind.

I play a tank. Not being able to reach 50% mitigation for many months is a huge nerf. I'm not sure I will care enough to get back to where I was. I thought the Champion system would allow for growth, not set us back.

How can you grow if you are already at max? Your statement is incongruent. In order for there to be growth, you can not be at the max of something. The CS is designed to make you more powerful - which means you aren't that powerful now. Otherwise don't change a thing.

Did you want a system rolled out that instantly puts you at the max of that new system?

bellanca6561n

Maverick827 wrote: »

If this is true, then I actually don't like the Champion system. 24% missing from some stats until you can max your CS is back-breaking. I thought it was going to be more subtle than that.

Those of us who have been playing since the beginning are ready for end-game to matter. We don't want to start another grind to relevance now: this past half year was the grind.

I play a tank. Not being able to reach 50% mitigation for many months is a huge nerf. I'm not sure I will care enough to get back to where I was. I thought the Champion system would allow for growth, not set us back.

This is a valid point. You set a maximum level. You have content for that level. The maximum level has been reset twice is just six months.

What the game needs is more content, not more levels, not new ways of achieving those maximum levels. Not so soon.

You cannot substitute leveling for content. They are separate and different things.

Resueht

This was the most insightful post I have seen about the CS!

Also, I would like to comment about growth. The CS will allow for horizontal growth, not vertical (an example of which is lvling to max level). Horizontal growth will allow you to either round out your abilities/stats or specialize even more into a particular stat with diminishing returns.

Overall, it looks like the CS overhaul will be able to add more balance in the builds for endgame PvE, but @Dominoid‌, would you be able to speak on the implications to PvP? It seems like many current PvP builds will be decimated by the nullification of soft caps. I'm all for adapting to a new system, but only if it will add balance; by balance I don't mean every build should be able to take on each other. I mean there should be a rock-paper-scissor type loop of strengths and weaknesses, not a hierarchical pyramid of power.

Thanks for lengthy explanation. Very informative!

Voodoo

Well written!

I for one cant wait. Currently I gave up being a healer because every tom,*** and harry can heal. With this new system if you want to heal "effectively". You would need to dedicate most points towards it.

Cannot wait for this system to start. This will really add a whole new demension to the endgame and the interest in the path you want your character to go down.

AAA post OP!

Dominoid

Resueht wrote: »

This was the most insightful post I have seen about the CS!

Also, I would like to comment about growth. The CS will allow for horizontal growth, not vertical (an example of which is lvling to max level). Horizontal growth will allow you to either round out your abilities/stats or specialize even more into a particular stat with diminishing returns.

Overall, it looks like the CS overhaul will be able to add more balance in the builds for endgame PvE, but @Dominoid‌, would you be able to speak on the implications to PvP? It seems like many current PvP builds will be decimated by the nullification of soft caps. I'm all for adapting to a new system, but only if it will add balance; by balance I don't mean every build should be able to take on each other. I mean there should be a rock-paper-scissor type loop of strengths and weaknesses, not a hierarchical pyramid of power.

Thanks for lengthy explanation. Very informative!

It should most certainly help balance PVP. Let's think of some of the PVP balance issue.

Unkillable DKs. Right now they can stack damage reduction to near 100% real mitigation- they never lose health. With the new pie system they will be limited to a maximum amount ZOS allows. So they will certainly have more damage reduction than other players, but they won't be unkillable.

Sorcs who don't run out of magicka - they can spam skills until they're blue in the face. Magicka regen will have its own pie and those players will only be able to get magicka regen to a certain point. Again they'll have way more regen than other players, but it won't be limitless.

One-shot NB from stealth - same pie scenario. They will only be able to crit hit to a certain damage number. Once reached, that's it.

These aren't perfect example, but it will make balance across PVE and PVP much easier.

Gilvoth

1. lol
2. where is the evidence of this work?
3. have you seen the champion system in full swing working on the live server and able to show us some evidence of it's success?
4. how much of your thesis is based on speculation?

5. you do realize that those who have dominated in pvp are most obviously going to notice a substantial change and overwhelming competition with the changes? and not "simply continue to play" (to quote you)
"the bulk of players simply play. But you are the top 5% so what I am about to say might not make sense to you. The reality is that most players won’t care or need to understand it. They simply trust that the system works, that their stats are adding naturally and they will continue to simply play."

Voodoo

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

1. lol
2. where is the evidence of this work?
3. have you seen the champion system in full swing working on the live server and able to show us some evidence of it's success?
4. how much of your thesis is based on speculation?

\

1. lol
2. did you read his/her post?
3. He/she states how they reached opinion in first few paragraphs. (hint paragraph "2")
4. go back and re-read to answer your questions.

ThisOnePosts

The thing that I find cheesy is, they already have these values in place with the current system for the most part... so all they are doing is "taking away" and then giving you a much longer path towards working to what is already there.

I'm not really thrilled tbh... if it were an advancement of stats (still replacing the old system) and it didn't take away so drastically but rather ADDED to the game... I'd say it would be much more successful.

Right now it sounds like a time sink to keep people busy end-game in the simplest way possible: take much longer to develop your stats.

That is definitely not innovative to say the least.

Yes I know other points of it, but I am referring to exactly what I speak about in this post.

Gilvoth

Voodoo wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

1. lol
2. where is the evidence of this work?
3. have you seen the champion system in full swing working on the live server and able to show us some evidence of it's success?
4. how much of your thesis is based on speculation?

\

1. lol
2. did you read his/her post?
3. He/she states how they reached opinion in first few paragraphs. (hint paragraph "2")
4. go back and re-read to answer your questions.

lol, no, my questions remain as ligitimate and are directed toward the thread starter and not his audiance.

Maverick827

Dominoid wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

If this is true, then I actually don't like the Champion system. 24% missing from some stats until you can max your CS is back-breaking. I thought it was going to be more subtle than that.

Those of us who have been playing since the beginning are ready for end-game to matter. We don't want to start another grind to relevance now: this past half year was the grind.

I play a tank. Not being able to reach 50% mitigation for many months is a huge nerf. I'm not sure I will care enough to get back to where I was. I thought the Champion system would allow for growth, not set us back.

How can you grow if you are already at max? Your statement is incongruent. In order for there to be growth, you can not be at the max of something. The CS is designed to make you more powerful - which means you aren't that powerful now. Otherwise don't change a thing.

Did you want a system rolled out that instantly puts you at the max of that new system?

You could have grown such that capped armor offers more than 50% mitigation. As it stands, if this system is indeed true, then tanks will suffer large nerfs until after they grind Champion points for months.

Dominoid

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

1. lol
2. where is the evidence of this work?
3. have you seen the champion system in full swing working on the live server and able to show us some evidence of it's success?
4. how much of your thesis is based on speculation?

5. you do realize that those who have dominated in pvp are most obviously going to notice a substantial change and overwhelming competition with the changes? and not "simply continue to play" (to quote you)
"the bulk of players simply play. But you are the top 5% so what I am about to say might not make sense to you. The reality is that most players won’t care or need to understand it. They simply trust that the system works, that their stats are adding naturally and they will continue to simply play."

1. Ummm . . . lol back??
2. Properly cited above with links. Feel free to click them and review them.
3. This is a post about what is known to come
4. None except the 1.7 prediction as stated
5. Yes. Because those that "dominate PVP" are part of the 5% I mention will notice while the rest won't care one way or the other.

*** RIF ***

Dominoid

Maverick827 wrote: »

Dominoid wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

If this is true, then I actually don't like the Champion system. 24% missing from some stats until you can max your CS is back-breaking. I thought it was going to be more subtle than that.

Those of us who have been playing since the beginning are ready for end-game to matter. We don't want to start another grind to relevance now: this past half year was the grind.

I play a tank. Not being able to reach 50% mitigation for many months is a huge nerf. I'm not sure I will care enough to get back to where I was. I thought the Champion system would allow for growth, not set us back.

How can you grow if you are already at max? Your statement is incongruent. In order for there to be growth, you can not be at the max of something. The CS is designed to make you more powerful - which means you aren't that powerful now. Otherwise don't change a thing.

Did you want a system rolled out that instantly puts you at the max of that new system?

You could have grown such that capped armor offers more than 50% mitigation. As it stands, if this system is indeed true, then tanks will suffer large nerfs until after they grind Champion points for months.

But are nerfs really nerfs if everything gets nerfed? In PVP all players are affected equally. So someone who was more powerful before is still more powerful - with respect to other players. Someone who is more skillful is still more skillful. In PVE all mobs are being recalibrated and are also affected by these underlying changes. This area is certainly a bigger concern based upon how well ZOS does this, but again regardless of how well ZOS does or doesn't do it affects all players equally.

So again, is a nerf a nerf if everything gets nerfed? For that matter, is a buff a buff if everything gets buffed?

someuser

Thanks for the insight @Dominoid‌ . I'm personally looking forward to the changes. As it stands right now, pre-50 is play how you want whereas post 50 seems to be, if you're in that "top 5%", play a limited numbers of builds if you want to dominate.

That's great for the kids who are already there have a face-roll-of-a-good-time, but it really limited the game long term. After the big CS upgrade I hope ZoS puts the same attention and love into re-vamping the economy in general so that it can match the CS in versatility.

Bars

just lets hope they test the crap out of it any idea when this hits , funny feeling I would be playing for a few week xD

Dominoid

Bars wrote: »

just lets hope they test the crap out of it any idea when this hits , funny feeling I would be playing for a few week xD

The official answer is “When it’s ready.” Here is my educated guess. The Champion system will be released in update 1.7. There is quite a bit of groundwork that needs to be laid before the CS can be released. They can’t possibly release the CS with the constellations and all the required ability and skill changes as outlined in the post above all at once. That would be too much change at once for players to handle. They need to somewhat slow walk it. We have already seen some of the groundwork being laid in 1.5 with some ability and skill changes and the removal of abilities that can stack. This is all in preparation for the CS. Also as announced in an ESO Live episode as well as Guild Summit Audio on Skills and Combat Reponsiveness, 1.6 will contain significant skill and ability tweaks and changes. This is actually laying the final groundwork to skills and abilities before the CS implementation. This leads me to believe they will be in position to release the meat of the CS complete with constellations in 1.7.

Gilvoth

Dominoid wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

1. lol
2. where is the evidence of this work?
3. have you seen the champion system in full swing working on the live server and able to show us some evidence of it's success?
4. how much of your thesis is based on speculation?

5. you do realize that those who have dominated in pvp are most obviously going to notice a substantial change and overwhelming competition with the changes? and not "simply continue to play" (to quote you)
"the bulk of players simply play. But you are the top 5% so what I am about to say might not make sense to you. The reality is that most players won’t care or need to understand it. They simply trust that the system works, that their stats are adding naturally and they will continue to simply play."

1. Ummm . . . lol back??
2. Properly cited above with links. Feel free to click them and review them.
3. This is a post about what is known to come
4. None except the 1.7 prediction as stated
5. Yes. Because those that "dominate PVP" are part of the 5% I mention will notice while the rest won't care one way or the other.

*** RIF ***

your only evidence that this is being implemented is by "words spoken by the developers in a summit", that at the very beginning "paul sage himself" stated that these were only thier intentions and not set in stone as fact and / or may recieve minor and if necessary "large" changes before going to the pts and live servers. (and yes ofcourse im paraphrasing)
with the aforementioned inmind you somehow base your entire theory on that evidance and seem to believe this as fact, even going as far as to lead those who read this thread to believe your idea and thesis is based on fact.

heres the truth that needs to be highligted:

the information you are presenting here in this thread is based on words taken out of a recording of a summit that was put together by people who have allready completed and finalized elderscrolls online as a AAA title. in-which most of what they proclaimed would happen within the game iether never happened or was altered in ways that caused mass upset to the point of a fairly significant amount of people unsubscribing, which by the way was entirely thier work alone and Not by the influence of the pts server population who infact tried to stop them from doing Many of the things they did within eso.
here within this thread we are led to believe that these same developers somehow have come to a "Grand Scale Mind Melding Concept" of something called the champion system that is supose to not only allow complete fixes for all the existing problems but also create a perfected class balance?

i do have faith in the developers of elderscrolls online that they infact do want to and have created a "great game"
eso has many things i do love and enjoy on a daily basis and i play with any and all free time i do have. i have no plans of unsubscribing nor leaving for any other mmo, but please forgive me for not believing that your belief of what they are doing is going to work.

asdf0716

removed.

Maverick827

Dominoid wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

Dominoid wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

If this is true, then I actually don't like the Champion system. 24% missing from some stats until you can max your CS is back-breaking. I thought it was going to be more subtle than that.

Those of us who have been playing since the beginning are ready for end-game to matter. We don't want to start another grind to relevance now: this past half year was the grind.

I play a tank. Not being able to reach 50% mitigation for many months is a huge nerf. I'm not sure I will care enough to get back to where I was. I thought the Champion system would allow for growth, not set us back.

How can you grow if you are already at max? Your statement is incongruent. In order for there to be growth, you can not be at the max of something. The CS is designed to make you more powerful - which means you aren't that powerful now. Otherwise don't change a thing.

Did you want a system rolled out that instantly puts you at the max of that new system?

You could have grown such that capped armor offers more than 50% mitigation. As it stands, if this system is indeed true, then tanks will suffer large nerfs until after they grind Champion points for months.

But are nerfs really nerfs if everything gets nerfed? In PVP all players are affected equally. So someone who was more powerful before is still more powerful - with respect to other players. Someone who is more skillful is still more skillful. In PVE all mobs are being recalibrated and are also affected by these underlying changes. This area is certainly a bigger concern based upon how well ZOS does this, but again regardless of how well ZOS does or doesn't do it affects all players equally.

So again, is a nerf a nerf if everything gets nerfed? For that matter, is a buff a buff if everything gets buffed?

The problem is that armor is different from other stats because it already has a hard cap. This proposed system is adding a de-facto hard cap to other stats, but that is including the new Champion system buffs.

A player on live might have Magicka soft capped at ~2400, and the Champion system will say "alright, you can get to 3200 magicka now, but Magicka from gear and from class skills tops out at 2500. We deliberately only gave you access to gear that stops at 2500 Magicka. The other 700 will have to come from Champion points."

But a the end of the day, that player can increase their Magicka dramatically, because the new cap is designed around the new system.

Armor, however, would be being shoehorned into the new system. A player on live can already have the capped armor stat, which is around ~3150. The Champion system rolls in and says "listen, we have this new design pattern. Like all the other stats, you'll need to get 24% of your armor from the Champion system. I see that you're already armor capped, however, so I'll have to reduce the amount of armor you get from that class buff an appropriate amount to make room."

Th player loses a certain amount of armor (mitigation, really) and has to make it back up, just so it fits into the system. They cant just give you more armor like they could with Magicka, because you're already capped.

LunaRae

@Dominoid Are they changing how math in the system works? Was there any information regarding this? I don't know what school these guys went to but their system is extremely illogical and the champion system seems destined for more disappointment unless they fix their math, huge underlying issue.

Example - I'm an argonian NB, I get a potion effectiveness passive. A health pot that heals for 600 base gets increased by my passive by 15%, so now it heals for 690. Now add on the Nightblade passive Catalyst to further increase potion effectiveness by 30%. Instead of being logical and being 30% on-top of the current value, it's 30% on the BASE value of the potion. So instead of my potion healing me for 897 as I would expect it only heals me for 870.

ESO Math - 600+(.15*600)+(.3*600)=870
My expectations - 600+(.15*600=y)+(.3*y) = 897

Every thing that is percentile works independently of other benefits/bonus, effectively reducing their value the more you stack them. This worries me for the champion system, as this really seems intended to cater to unique and custom builds. If I want to stack damage and that's it their math system is going to effectively reduce the bonus' to near 0 in the end, and again the most logical choice of action will be to put points evenly into all areas to get the most benefit for my CS points.

Would love to have this addressed

Dominoid

LunaRae wrote: »

@Dominoid Are they changing how math in the system works? Was there any information regarding this? I don't know what school these guys went to but their system is extremely illogical and the champion system seems destined for more disappointment unless they fix their math, huge underlying issue.

Example - I'm an argonian NB, I get a potion effectiveness passive. A health pot that heals for 600 base gets increased by my passive by 15%, so now it heals for 690. Now add on the Nightblade passive Catalyst to further increase potion effectiveness by 30%. Instead of being logical and being 30% on-top of the current value, it's 30% on the BASE value of the potion. So instead of my potion healing me for 897 as I would expect it only heals me for 870.

ESO Math - 600+(.15*600)+(.3*600)=870
My expectations - 600+(.15*600=y)+(.3*y) = 897

Every thing that is percentile works independently of other benefits/bonus, effectively reducing their value the more you stack them. This worries me for the champion system, as this really seems intended to cater to unique and custom builds. If I want to stack damage and that's it their math system is going to effectively reduce the bonus' to near 0 in the end, and again the most logical choice of action will be to put points evenly into all areas to get the most benefit for my CS points.

Would love to have this addressed

My understanding is that most skills will show raw numbers instead of percentages. The raw numbers will scale with level though. So your Argonian healing passive at level 10 could be 30 but at level 50 it would be 120.

This has the same effect but removes the confusion you express. In your example instead of two separate tool tips that say increase healing by 15% and 30% respectively. It would say increase healing by 90 and 180. No confusion to be had.

Sublime

@Dominoid‌ best post I've seen on the forum so far, at all.

On-Topic: Nothing to add, since every Information needed can be read in the post or the links.

EQBallzz

Maverick827 wrote: »

If this is true, then I actually don't like the Champion system. 24% missing from some stats until you can max your CS is back-breaking. I thought it was going to be more subtle than that.

Those of us who have been playing since the beginning are ready for end-game to matter. We don't want to start another grind to relevance now: this past half year was the grind.

I play a tank. Not being able to reach 50% mitigation for many months is a huge nerf. I'm not sure I will care enough to get back to where I was. I thought the Champion system would allow for growth, not set us back.

They have stated two things that will make your concern less of a problem. First, they are allowing for a veteran XP conversion which will take into account current progress and convert it into Champion Points when this goes live. They are also taking into account XP gained once people are capped at VR14. That means people who are vet level won't have to completely start over (though the amount of Champion Points allowed from conversion is capped at some unknown number).

Secondly, they have stated that the skill trees in the CS are front loaded for balance. Meaning the first points you put towards an ability will have the most effect and lose effectiveness over time so those stored points you get converted should allow you to get up to a pretty good level of relevance right from the start if you have a significant time investment already and then further fine tune from there.

firstdecan

Edited because the premise of the post was flawed. Original post is in the spoiler.

Please note, subsequent posting has shown that the Champion points are spent per character, and are not universal choices that apply to all characters.

For those of you who are excited about the Champion system -

Please remember that the Champion points provide account wide bonuses that apply to all your characters. This has an advantage in that whatever character you play, they will all benefit. It has a significant disadvantage for players who may want to create alternate characters with alternate play styles. If you spend your champion points on improving your tanking skills, all your characters will only benefit if they're tanks. If you spend your champion points on dps skills, your characters will only benefit if they're dps focused. This means you will have fewer options for creating new characters, as the champion system provides a blanket bonus to all your characters. You will not be able to have a variety of effective builds.

This is not a well thought out system, I hope they reconsider it before deployment. If I can't create characters with different play styles, I will get bored much more quickly and probably unsub (not meant as a threat or an angry response, just following the logic of limiting playstyle).

Khami

firstdecan wrote: »

For those of you who are excited about the Champion system -

Please remember that the Champion points provide account wide bonuses that apply to all your characters. This has an advantage in that whatever character you play, they will all benefit. It has a significant disadvantage for players who may want to create alternate characters with alternate play styles. If you spend your champion points on improving your tanking skills, all your characters will only benefit if they're tanks. If you spend your champion points on dps skills, your characters will only benefit if they're dps focused. This means you will have fewer options for creating new characters, as the champion system provides a blanket bonus to all your characters. You will not be able to have a variety of effective builds.

This is not a well thought out system, I hope they reconsider it before deployment. If I can't create characters with different play styles, I will get bored much more quickly and probably unsub (not meant as a threat or an angry response, just following the logic of limiting playstyle).

Do you have proof that the alts don't get points to spend on what they need, but are forced to use what the main character used?

Dominoid

firstdecan wrote: »

For those of you who are excited about the Champion system -

Please remember that the Champion points provide account wide bonuses that apply to all your characters. This has an advantage in that whatever character you play, they will all benefit. It has a significant disadvantage for players who may want to create alternate characters with alternate play styles. If you spend your champion points on improving your tanking skills, all your characters will only benefit if they're tanks. If you spend your champion points on dps skills, your characters will only benefit if they're dps focused. This means you will have fewer options for creating new characters, as the champion system provides a blanket bonus to all your characters. You will not be able to have a variety of effective builds.

This is not a well thought out system, I hope they reconsider it before deployment. If I can't create characters with different play styles, I will get bored much more quickly and probably unsub (not meant as a threat or an angry response, just following the logic of limiting playstyle).

NOOOOOOOOOOO! I know this is your understanding and isn't being said maliciously, but this is a horrible falsehood to perpetuate to the playerbase.

This is incorrect and I am 100% sure of what I am about to say. You get all champion points for all your characters and get to spend them individually on all characters. Let's say account wide you have earned 500 champion points through all your characters post 50. You get to log into each character and spend 500 points EACH in any way you see fit on that character. See below starting at 43m12s.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcIaOzyOUL0&t=43m12s

kieso

see you guys around patch 1.7 then.

LunaRae

Dominoid wrote: »

LunaRae wrote: »

@Dominoid Are they changing how math in the system works? Was there any information regarding this? I don't know what school these guys went to but their system is extremely illogical and the champion system seems destined for more disappointment unless they fix their math, huge underlying issue.

Example - I'm an argonian NB, I get a potion effectiveness passive. A health pot that heals for 600 base gets increased by my passive by 15%, so now it heals for 690. Now add on the Nightblade passive Catalyst to further increase potion effectiveness by 30%. Instead of being logical and being 30% on-top of the current value, it's 30% on the BASE value of the potion. So instead of my potion healing me for 897 as I would expect it only heals me for 870.

ESO Math - 600+(.15*600)+(.3*600)=870
My expectations - 600+(.15*600=y)+(.3*y) = 897

Every thing that is percentile works independently of other benefits/bonus, effectively reducing their value the more you stack them. This worries me for the champion system, as this really seems intended to cater to unique and custom builds. If I want to stack damage and that's it their math system is going to effectively reduce the bonus' to near 0 in the end, and again the most logical choice of action will be to put points evenly into all areas to get the most benefit for my CS points.

Would love to have this addressed

My understanding is that most skills will show raw numbers instead of percentages. The raw numbers will scale with level though. So your Argonian healing passive at level 10 could be 30 but at level 50 it would be 120.

This has the same effect but removes the confusion you express. In your example instead of two separate tool tips that say increase healing by 15% and 30% respectively. It would say increase healing by 90 and 180. No confusion to be had.

Ahh hard numbers! good point, I think that was verbally expressed but well said. That sounds good, thanks

DragonWitch

Dominoid wrote: »

firstdecan wrote: »

For those of you who are excited about the Champion system -

Please remember that the Champion points provide account wide bonuses that apply to all your characters. This has an advantage in that whatever character you play, they will all benefit. It has a significant disadvantage for players who may want to create alternate characters with alternate play styles. If you spend your champion points on improving your tanking skills, all your characters will only benefit if they're tanks. If you spend your champion points on dps skills, your characters will only benefit if they're dps focused. This means you will have fewer options for creating new characters, as the champion system provides a blanket bonus to all your characters. You will not be able to have a variety of effective builds.

This is not a well thought out system, I hope they reconsider it before deployment. If I can't create characters with different play styles, I will get bored much more quickly and probably unsub (not meant as a threat or an angry response, just following the logic of limiting playstyle).

NOOOOOOOOOOO! I know this is your understanding and isn't being said maliciously, but this is a horrible falsehood to perpetuate to the playerbase.

This is incorrect and I am 100% sure of what I am about to say. You get all champion points for all your characters and get to spend them individually on all characters. Let's say account wide you have earned 500 champion points through all your characters post 50. You get to log into each character and spend 500 points EACH in any way you see fit on that character. See below starting at 43m12s.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcIaOzyOUL0&t=43m12s

Thank the gods, I was very worried there.

Zheg

Dominoid wrote: »

Bars wrote: »

just lets hope they test the crap out of it any idea when this hits , funny feeling I would be playing for a few week xD

The official answer is “When it’s ready.” Here is my educated guess. The Champion system will be released in update 1.7. There is quite a bit of groundwork that needs to be laid before the CS can be released. They can’t possibly release the CS with the constellations and all the required ability and skill changes as outlined in the post above all at once. That would be too much change at once for players to handle. They need to somewhat slow walk it. We have already seen some of the groundwork being laid in 1.5 with some ability and skill changes and the removal of abilities that can stack. This is all in preparation for the CS. Also as announced in an ESO Live episode as well as Guild Summit Audio on Skills and Combat Reponsiveness, 1.6 will contain significant skill and ability tweaks and changes. This is actually laying the final groundwork to skills and abilities before the CS implementation. This leads me to believe they will be in position to release the meat of the CS complete with constellations in 1.7.

As excited as I am about the CS, if this ends up being 1.7, that might be one patch too late for me. I see rampant guild population decline, and I myself have become so jaded from the length of time they allowed the magicka v stamina imbalance to last for that I simply refuse to play trials and pvp with magicka builds. I've theorycrafted some fun-sounding builds with the removal of softcaps, but if that doesn't happen until 1.7... yikes. 1.5 should hit live in November, let's say early December for 1.6, and then mid January for 1.7? I honestly don't know if they'll be able to retain me for that long. As much as I love the game, the atrocious neglect to balance in the early life of the game left me at a point now where I only log in to research crafts, shop for pvp armor set missing pieces, and that's it.

PVP has had unplayable lag/crashing issues, and when you couple that with the batpulse nightmare that lasted for half a year unchecked, pvp just became stale. Trials were probably my biggest gripe, and the true source of the 'sticks and skirts' label ESO got.

If they're implementing this in pieces, fine, but they need to remove softcaps asap, and implement the armor changes earlier rather than later.