How the Champion System is a Complete Overhaul of Game Numbers

cazlonb16_ESO

someuser wrote: »

Thanks for the insight @Dominoid‌ . I'm personally looking forward to the changes. As it stands right now, pre-50 is play how you want whereas post 50 seems to be, if you're in that "top 5%", play a limited numbers of builds if you want to dominate.

That's great for the kids who are already there have a face-roll-of-a-good-time, but it really limited the game long term. After the big CS upgrade I hope ZoS puts the same attention and love into re-vamping the economy in general so that it can match the CS in versatility.

At least when it comes to PvE the system outlined by the OP would actually lock in cookie cutter builds to an extent we do not have at the moment. Right now it's relatively easy to design a "good enough" build for the various tasks in trials with a few compromises here and there, precisely because soft caps are in place.

That would no longer be possible witht the OP's version of the CS. There'd be a clear cut path to most ability to soak damage/most heal per second/most dps. The very definition of cookie cutter.

In PvP it would be a different story, but considering the numbers I'm seeing in Cyrodiil these days, that's largely irrelevant to the vast majority of players.

Alphashado

cazlonb16_ESO wrote: »

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someuser wrote: »

Thanks for the insight @Dominoid‌ . I'm personally looking forward to the changes. As it stands right now, pre-50 is play how you want whereas post 50 seems to be, if you're in that "top 5%", play a limited numbers of builds if you want to dominate.

That's great for the kids who are already there have a face-roll-of-a-good-time, but it really limited the game long term. After the big CS upgrade I hope ZoS puts the same attention and love into re-vamping the economy in general so that it can match the CS in versatility.

At least when it comes to PvE the system outlined by the OP would actually lock in cookie cutter builds to an extent we do not have at the moment. Right now it's relatively easy to design a "good enough" build for the various tasks in trials with a few compromises here and there, precisely because soft caps are in place.

That would no longer be possible witht the OP's version of the CS. There'd be a clear cut path to most ability to soak damage/most heal per second/most dps. The very definition of cookie cutter.

In PvP it would be a different story, but considering the numbers I'm seeing in Cyrodiil these days, that's largely irrelevant to the vast majority of players.

I have to admit that I am not very enthused by the notion of "locking in" an even smaller amount of cookie cutter builds. I like the fact that you can attain "Good enough" with different builds.

Cogo

Sublime wrote: »

1. The more V14 chars you have the more CPS you will get, so yes. But you will get the same amount of CPS if you Play one V14 for the entire time instead of leveling three V14 alts, because ZOS will include the exp earned past V14.

Very nicely put, sir!

I think this is the most important part about the Champion system. Exp comes from lots of different sources and we will earn CPs no matter what we do. As long as we don't kill the same mobs over and over.

This is brilliant, since it will be as equal progression for most players as possible. No one reaches the "top" and "new" characters to level 50 will be awarded CPs depending on the players total game play.

As for balance with the system, I am more curious about how Spell crafting will get balanced. That's the real power. CPs is more flavor and minor increases in power. The Champion system does mean progression and grow in power, but horizontal. A "new" Champion does not get totally owned by a Champion with 200 points. Harder to kill, just like Vet 2 vs a Vet 8. Vet 2 CAN win....just harder!

I really like that everyone always have a reason to get exp. With Dungeon scaling, that means more people can play the game together and earn "something".

You are never "done", progressing.

Sublime

@Cogo thanks for the feedback.

The things you are stating are pretty much why I am so glad they implement the whole thing, so very nice summary.

BTW: I edited my original post in order to avoid confusion. I.e. I specified that the amount of V14 chars on your account only matters for the calculation of how many CSP you get as a reward for your experience points, whe the CS launches, but does not have any influence on the CSP gain afterwards.

Kraven

Sublime wrote: »

@Kraven this is a very nice idea, but as they stated at the guild summit, they are able to track the exp a character has earned until the tim when the CS kicks in, even those beyond V14.

I.e. all earned Veteran exerience earned all across your account throughout your whole game time will be added up and used to calculate the amount of Champion Points you will get.

What does this mean?
That means you will in get exactly the same amount of Champion Points, no matter whether you do the quests now or after the release of the CS.
Additionally it doesn't matter on which character you earn the veteran experience points.
The only thing that will not be converted into Champion Points is experience earned at the Levels 1-49.

Oh, I understand the concept, it's the practice I'm more concerned with. Awarding things retroactively is not and has not been a strong point so far. My public dungeon achievements were reset for example, I was told that this was just graphical in the journal and that in actuality I have those achievements and yet when I carried a couple lower level players through some I got not only the achievement and the points associated with it but I also got the skill point from the 'group' challenge. Telling me either I did not have the achievement flagged as complete for that character, meaning a representative flat out lied about it or didn't take the time to actually check. Or I'm being rewarded twice for the exact same content, either way not a good sign for ability to track on an individual basis.

Undaunted achievements for group dungeons did not reward retroactively so I'm forced to grind dailies in order to level the undaunted skill line. Kill achievements were early on pretty bugged, when asked my friends and I were told we would be rewarded retro when it was fixed. Never happened.

So while I get the theory of tracking all experience gained keep in mind they said the same thing when cap was moved to V12. That all experience gained would be tracked and accounted for when CP went live, and yet there was no way to track each individual V12 characters xp gained. Now that has changed and V14 character xp is tracked however as there has been no evidence of the accuracy with this tracking some people may be setting their expectations of the retro reward a bit high.

All that said grinding out quests at V1 is fast and easy, the main quests giving considerable chunks of xp. So my V14 is still earning xp for group content, my V8 is earning xp while leveling with my wife's character and if the tracking is accurate I'll be pleasantly surprised when it switches over. If the tracking is off I have a V1 ready to run some fast quests and easy achievements with.

Kraven

cazlonb16_ESO wrote: »

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someuser wrote: »

Thanks for the insight @Dominoid‌ . I'm personally looking forward to the changes. As it stands right now, pre-50 is play how you want whereas post 50 seems to be, if you're in that "top 5%", play a limited numbers of builds if you want to dominate.

That's great for the kids who are already there have a face-roll-of-a-good-time, but it really limited the game long term. After the big CS upgrade I hope ZoS puts the same attention and love into re-vamping the economy in general so that it can match the CS in versatility.

At least when it comes to PvE the system outlined by the OP would actually lock in cookie cutter builds to an extent we do not have at the moment. Right now it's relatively easy to design a "good enough" build for the various tasks in trials with a few compromises here and there, precisely because soft caps are in place.

That would no longer be possible witht the OP's version of the CS. There'd be a clear cut path to most ability to soak damage/most heal per second/most dps. The very definition of cookie cutter.

In PvP it would be a different story, but considering the numbers I'm seeing in Cyrodiil these days, that's largely irrelevant to the vast majority of players.

This is my concern as well. With such a system as described it doesn't just promote meta builds but enforces them. Right now Crushing shock builds are promoted because they're easy and high dps, luckily this is already looking to be fixed. But if the described system goes into place each role will have one build.

If you gear the content toward the min/max then you're forcing everyone to become a min maxer if they want to take part of the content. If you gear the content toward a fixed standard, min/max is going to be a distinct advantage to the point the average player is going to want to play that meta build in order to do the content easily. Then the content itself is considered too easy and eventually too boring. FotM builds are already almost out of control and being a MMO they always will be. From DK vamps to Crystal frag spam to Pulsar spam and now Crushing Shock, players WILL find the competitive edge and that edge will become required.

Similar to why so many insist on a Templar healer when I've healed or been healed through every bit of content in the game by a Sorc healer, my wife as a V4 NB healer has healed every Vet dungeon many with the dungeon set to V12. But people are closed minded and this type of system allows them to be so to an even finer point.

I'm excited for the champion system since it was compared to EQ's AA system which is to date one of my favorite mmo systems. However if it further promotes meta builds as "Must have X in order to ________." then it is a detriment to the game.

Alphashado

Kraven wrote: »

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cazlonb16_ESO wrote: »

someuser wrote: »

Thanks for the insight @Dominoid‌ . I'm personally looking forward to the changes. As it stands right now, pre-50 is play how you want whereas post 50 seems to be, if you're in that "top 5%", play a limited numbers of builds if you want to dominate.

That's great for the kids who are already there have a face-roll-of-a-good-time, but it really limited the game long term. After the big CS upgrade I hope ZoS puts the same attention and love into re-vamping the economy in general so that it can match the CS in versatility.

At least when it comes to PvE the system outlined by the OP would actually lock in cookie cutter builds to an extent we do not have at the moment. Right now it's relatively easy to design a "good enough" build for the various tasks in trials with a few compromises here and there, precisely because soft caps are in place.

That would no longer be possible witht the OP's version of the CS. There'd be a clear cut path to most ability to soak damage/most heal per second/most dps. The very definition of cookie cutter.

In PvP it would be a different story, but considering the numbers I'm seeing in Cyrodiil these days, that's largely irrelevant to the vast majority of players.

This is my concern as well. With such a system as described it doesn't just promote meta builds but enforces them. Right now Crushing shock builds are promoted because they're easy and high dps, luckily this is already looking to be fixed. But if the described system goes into place each role will have one build.

If you gear the content toward the min/max then you're forcing everyone to become a min maxer if they want to take part of the content. If you gear the content toward a fixed standard, min/max is going to be a distinct advantage to the point the average player is going to want to play that meta build in order to do the content easily. Then the content itself is considered too easy and eventually too boring. FotM builds are already almost out of control and being a MMO they always will be. From DK vamps to Crystal frag spam to Pulsar spam and now Crushing Shock, players WILL find the competitive edge and that edge will become required.

Similar to why so many insist on a Templar healer when I've healed or been healed through every bit of content in the game by a Sorc healer, my wife as a V4 NB healer has healed every Vet dungeon many with the dungeon set to V12. But people are closed minded and this type of system allows them to be so to an even finer point.

I'm excited for the champion system since it was compared to EQ's AA system which is to date one of my favorite mmo systems. However if it further promotes meta builds as "Must have X in order to ________." then it is a detriment to the game.

It will all depend on who ZoS caves to. Time will tell, but if this system does indeed lead to a handful of cookie cutter uber builds that will be "required" for trials etc, then one of two things will happen:

They will nerf whatever builds are deemed OP.
Or they will lower the difficulty of the content in order to facilitate a wider variety of builds.
If the 2cnd option happens, then all of the players using the meta builds will then complain that the content is too easy.

Nihil

Kraven wrote: »

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cazlonb16_ESO wrote: »

someuser wrote: »

Thanks for the insight @Dominoid‌ . I'm personally looking forward to the changes. As it stands right now, pre-50 is play how you want whereas post 50 seems to be, if you're in that "top 5%", play a limited numbers of builds if you want to dominate.

That's great for the kids who are already there have a face-roll-of-a-good-time, but it really limited the game long term. After the big CS upgrade I hope ZoS puts the same attention and love into re-vamping the economy in general so that it can match the CS in versatility.

At least when it comes to PvE the system outlined by the OP would actually lock in cookie cutter builds to an extent we do not have at the moment. Right now it's relatively easy to design a "good enough" build for the various tasks in trials with a few compromises here and there, precisely because soft caps are in place.

That would no longer be possible witht the OP's version of the CS. There'd be a clear cut path to most ability to soak damage/most heal per second/most dps. The very definition of cookie cutter.

In PvP it would be a different story, but considering the numbers I'm seeing in Cyrodiil these days, that's largely irrelevant to the vast majority of players.

This is my concern as well. With such a system as described it doesn't just promote meta builds but enforces them. Right now Crushing shock builds are promoted because they're easy and high dps, luckily this is already looking to be fixed. But if the described system goes into place each role will have one build.

If you gear the content toward the min/max then you're forcing everyone to become a min maxer if they want to take part of the content. If you gear the content toward a fixed standard, min/max is going to be a distinct advantage to the point the average player is going to want to play that meta build in order to do the content easily. Then the content itself is considered too easy and eventually too boring. FotM builds are already almost out of control and being a MMO they always will be. From DK vamps to Crystal frag spam to Pulsar spam and now Crushing Shock, players WILL find the competitive edge and that edge will become required.

Similar to why so many insist on a Templar healer when I've healed or been healed through every bit of content in the game by a Sorc healer, my wife as a V4 NB healer has healed every Vet dungeon many with the dungeon set to V12. But people are closed minded and this type of system allows them to be so to an even finer point.

I'm excited for the champion system since it was compared to EQ's AA system which is to date one of my favorite mmo systems. However if it further promotes meta builds as "Must have X in order to ________." then it is a detriment to the game.

If they do it right it wont promote cookie cutter builds ( although there will be players demanding builds, which is completely different issue). If they balance all the constellations out then you will be able to choose how you focus, while there are some specific skill constellations you will want to advance depending on your role, this does not necessarily mean all builds will be the same.

Tanks for example will have at least 2 if not three or more things to choose from, they will need to pick some perks for armor, some for spell resistance, and if there is a block / dodge roll perk those might need to be picked. Then they have to decide how they are going to allocate those points, and the extra they might have, do they want to try and increase their DPS? How about a tank that puts points into healing? As they still have probably a large portion of magicka points this might make it easier to try a healing tank build (maybe not all that plausible). As long as the content doesn't actually require "X" amount of defense then the build versatility would still be there. Min/Maxers will always try and optimize stats which will speed up or guarantee a success, and just get the bare minimum for the stats they deem not needed.

Gyudan

Alphashado wrote: »

It will all depend on who ZoS caves to. Time will tell, but if this system does indeed lead to a handful of cookie cutter uber builds that will be "required" for trials etc, then one of two things will happen:

They will nerf whatever builds are deemed OP.
Or they will lower the difficulty of the content in order to facilitate a wider variety of builds.
If the 2cnd option happens, then all of the players using the meta builds will then complain that the content is too easy.

I wish there were many different builds providing competitive options for every class and weapon, gear that would have to be switched around to counter boss mechanisms.

[warning: expectations ahead]

For tanks: focus on healing received, armor, spell resistance, speed while blocking, block cost, stamina regeneration, improved stats while blocking, boosts after successful dodges, different damage mitigation values depending on the attack type and the tank's equipment.

For DPS: blunt damage, crush damage, pierce damage, bleeding damage, frostbite damage, burn damage, shock damage, poison damage, slows, dark curses, ... all affecting bosses in a different way, with real weaknesses for specific bosses and not the same damage output for every single attack type.

For Healers - single target or group heals, group buffs like shields, cost reduction, increased regeneration, increased weapon and spell power, better resistance to fire/ice/whatever, or health when resurrecting.

As a sorcerer DPS, I'm getting tired of "weaving" crushing shock over and over for hours. I'm getting tired of everyone using practically the same gear and always focusing on the exact same stats.
The main story makes players feel "special" but endgame content is just based on hundreds of players copy/pasting the same builds.

Winnower

even if, like in some other games, you can have valid alternative builds there will always be one way that is preferred. I've been a raid tank in games where the tank had choices of passive mitigation, avoidance mitigation, self-healing or HoT mitigation, etc. One path has always been optimal after analysis, sometimes as specifically as which fight you are in - even if that build is a hybrid.

many games have "good enough" alternatives, but I don't know any which don't have an optimal build for any given time in specific circumstances.

if they give us a system where most content can be done with a variety of builds we should be thankful. anything more is not realistic.

Kraven

Winnower wrote: »

even if, like in some other games, you can have valid alternative builds there will always be one way that is preferred. I've been a raid tank in games where the tank had choices of passive mitigation, avoidance mitigation, self-healing or HoT mitigation, etc. One path has always been optimal after analysis, sometimes as specifically as which fight you are in - even if that build is a hybrid.

many games have "good enough" alternatives, but I don't know any which don't have an optimal build for any given time in specific circumstances.

if they give us a system where most content can be done with a variety of builds we should be thankful. anything more is not realistic.

I'm okay with this, if a variety of builds have optimal situations that is fine by me personally. What I don't want is a straight "X build is the best for tanks. period." All deeps must use Y build. Period"

All tanking in the game atm is mitigation tanking. Atm I do it differently as a NB as my friends do with Sorc or DK, I miss the chain pull of the DK but make up for it with better resource management, I miss the roots but make up for it with Refreshing path giving AE heal + damage aggro and while I can't hard cap armor I can easily get well over soft cap and taps return a fair portion of health. Of the 4 classes all can tank it is just a matter of approaching the role differently, if that changes it is a big problem.

Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO

Ninnghizhidda wrote: »

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RSram wrote: »

So let me get this straight; ESO took 5 years to develop the current system and seven months to figure out that it doesn't really work?

So I'm paying ESO $15 a month to beta test their MMO again? Talk about irony.

Exactly.

And almost one more year live to come up with a system similar to Diablo III (it kinda works there, I think). ESO is otherwise a lovely game, but as it has been said several times, looks like we are still "paying to Beta test it" (and possibly test it for the consoles).

And just don't tell me "it is a young MMO, it is evolving", because I will say "life has been evolving for a few billion years to reach its current state", by analogy, we should be absolutely happy with the lengthy process, while we all know what kind of resources and budget it has (nope, not being developed by juniors in a basement, although who knows, it might have been better)?

Billions of years of evolution and life is still evolving and changing I think you made an argument against the point your trying to make...7 months live is nothing....and as far as paying for beta, people already do this in many other games nothing new here

Iduyenn

What bugs me... with the "Magickaskills scale from spellpower and spellcrit only" system there is a huge gap coming in.
Mage DD`s and Healer can practically wear the same stuff, while Stamina-users will clearly have to either- buff with magicka and make dmg with stamina or vice versa.