How the Champion System is a Complete Overhaul of Game Numbers
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firstdecan✭✭✭✭✭
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NOOOOOOOOOOO! I know this is your understanding and isn't being said maliciously, but this is a horrible falsehood to perpetuate to the playerbase.
This is incorrect and I am 100% sure of what I am about to say. You get all champion points for all your characters and get to spend them individually on all characters. Let's say account wide you have earned 500 champion points through all your characters post 50. You get to log into each character and spend 500 points EACH in any way you see fit on that character. See below starting at 43m12s.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcIaOzyOUL0&t=43m12s
I listened to a few minutes at the point you suggested, the speaker did say the points would be earned per account and spent per character, which is a relief to me. I'm a little disturbed at how buried this information is, figuring out how to play a game or keep up with the changes to it shouldn't be a full time job. Other than that momentary sound bite, I haven't seen any other information to indicate that nuance to the champion system (which has significant implications).
I'll edit my post when I'm at a computer, the edit option is not visible from my tablet (hover \ mouseover event). My misunderstanding shouldn't be propagated.1 -
Dominoid✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭firstdecan wrote: »
I listened to a few minutes at the point you suggested, the speaker did say the points would be earned per account and spent per character, which is a relief to me. I'm a little disturbed at how buried this information is, figuring out how to play a game or keep up with the changes to it shouldn't be a full time job. Other than that momentary sound bite, I haven't seen any other information to indicate that nuance to the champion system (which has significant implications).
I'll edit my post when I'm at a computer, the edit option is not visible from my tablet (hover \ mouseover event). My misunderstanding shouldn't be propagated.
No problem. They're doing it the way you wanted though.
They listen fast! 0 -
timidobserver✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭The Champion system will work out really well. They'll be able to buff specialized tanks or healers without inadvertently creating OP unkillable pvp builds.V16 Uriel Stormblessed EP Magicka Templar(main)
V16 Derelict Vagabond EP Stamina DK
V16 Redacted Ep Stam Sorc
V16 Insolent EP Magicka Sorc(retired)
V16 Jed I Nyte EP Stamina NB(retired)0 -
RSram✭✭✭✭✭So let me get this straight; ESO took 5 years to develop the current system and seven months to figure out that it doesn't really work?
So I'm paying ESO $15 a month to beta test their MMO again? Talk about irony.9 -
jelliedsoup✭✭✭✭✭Looking forward to the changes, their focus on magicka and cast blocking makes pvp so one sided.Edited by jelliedsoup on October 22, 2014 3:41AMwww.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=Ks8_KGHqmO40 -
AssaultLemming✭✭✭✭DragonWitch wrote: »
This is not how I understand it is going to be. If you have earned 500 champion points you can spend them on whatever character you want and the benefits apply to all, but you aren't going to get 500 points per character to spend. Otherwise I am off to make a full set of alts!1 -
Ninnghizhidda✭✭✭✭So let me get this straight; ESO took 5 years to develop the current system and seven months to figure out that it doesn't really work?
So I'm paying ESO $15 a month to beta test their MMO again? Talk about irony.
Exactly.
And almost one more year live to come up with a system similar to Diablo III (it kinda works there, I think). ESO is otherwise a lovely game, but as it has been said several times, looks like we are still "paying to Beta test it" (and possibly test it for the consoles).
And just don't tell me "it is a young MMO, it is evolving", because I will say "life has been evolving for a few billion years to reach its current state", by analogy, we should be absolutely happy with the lengthy process, while we all know what kind of resources and budget it has (nope, not being developed by juniors in a basement, although who knows, it might have been better)?6 -
Artis✭✭✭✭✭
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ehhh, so as a NB with no armor passives I will never get that slice and will always be a worse tank than DK,sorc? Well, in this case, I hope one of 3 things happens:A Dragonknight by virtue of their passives and active skills and abilities in their class skill lines will be a better physical mitigation tank than a Sorcerer. No exceptions.
1. I'll get a bigger slice of a dps pie.
2. My skills will be changed so I can tank as well as DKs.
3. Achievements,titles etc will be account-wide, so I can keep progressing as a DK.... I like tanking in this game and sometimes I want to do that, but if they kick me from a group because I'm not a dk ... Bad job, ZOS. Think more.1 -
VileIntent✭✭✭✭ehhh, so as a NB with no armor passives I will never get that slice and will always be a worse tank than DK,sorc? Well, in this case, I hope one of 3 things happens:
1. I'll get a bigger slice of a dps pie.
2. My skills will be changed so I can tank as well as DKs.
3. Achievements,titles etc will be account-wide, so I can keep progressing as a DK.... I like tanking in this game and sometimes I want to do that, but if they kick me from a group because I'm not a dk ... Bad job, ZOS. Think more.
*sigh*
No, Nightblades are evasion tanks. It is best to play them to avoid the damage all together.AssaultLemming wrote: »
This is not how I understand it is going to be. If you have earned 500 champion points you can spend them on whatever character you want and the benefits apply to all, but you aren't going to get 500 points per character to spend. Otherwise I am off to make a full set of alts!
It literally is exactly like the Diablo 3 Paragon system.
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Leijona✭✭✭✭✭dwemer_paleologist wrote: »the information you are presenting here in this thread is based on words taken out of a recording of a summit that was put together by people who have allready completed and finalized elderscrolls online as a AAA title.
Wrong. I have never seen a trial from inside. I'm not even close to do so. Actually, I'm not even V14 yet. But I was at the summit. And regarding the completed part: Non of the attendies had completed the game. Only a couple or so even went into the serpent trial.So let me get this straight; ESO took 5 years to develop the current system and seven months to figure out that it doesn't really work?
So I'm paying ESO $15 a month to beta test their MMO again? Talk about irony.
Also wrong. They took 1 year to develope the current system, because it was intended not to have the veteran system in the first place. But then they did that, so that players could see all factions with one charater, just as they asked. How they did it, was not the best way and they found about it within a few months. The champion system is being developed for a while now, so they found out, that the system doesn't work well before your mentioned seven months.3 -
Koensol✭✭✭✭✭
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NO. The problem was the relentless and massive prelaunch whining about not being able to visit the other factions territories on one character! I.e. faction locks. My god you should've seen the rage. 5 threads about it each day on the bethsoft forums.So let me get this straight; ESO took 5 years to develop the current system and seven months to figure out that it doesn't really work?
So I'm paying ESO $15 a month to beta test their MMO again? Talk about irony.
This continuous whining at ZOS' s adress by the "hardcore TES fans", as they like to describe themselves, made ZOS bend over and add the VR system so people could see all the lands. It was decided like 3/4 or 1/2 a year before the games launch. They didn't think too much or had too much time to really think of all the details.
So just because those whiners got what they want (I wonder how many of them still play), we were forced to play through the VR grind, with a patheticly bad story explanation that doesn't make me take it seriously. Then also the whole VR system around it isn't well thought out and just feels pasted onto the game as an afterthought. It was also barely tested. Remember the imba delve bosses?
Zos gave into the pressure and that is what made them stray from their path. I have to say... TES fans are the most relentless, quick to rage and most of all entitled fans I've ever seen. By far.
"That cannot be in ESO!! It wasn't like that in Skyrim, thst's not TES!! WHAAAAA!"
Yea right? Just like how Redguard has all the "classic TES features...
Anyway, /rant
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firstdecan✭✭✭✭✭
✭AssaultLemming wrote: »
This is not how I understand it is going to be. If you have earned 500 champion points you can spend them on whatever character you want and the benefits apply to all, but you aren't going to get 500 points per character to spend. Otherwise I am off to make a full set of alts!
The Audio segment quoted seems to indicate that the points are spent on a per character basis even though they're accumulated on an account basis. They specifically mentioned that once accumulated, those points would apply to under levelled characters \ alts and can be spent differently for those alts.
That's one Audio snippet though, and seeing that this system is still under development I would not take that as gospel. You could very well be right and the Audio snippet poorly explained the intention, or the intention may change before implementation.1 -
Dominoid✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭AssaultLemming wrote: »
This is not how I understand it is going to be. If you have earned 500 champion points you can spend them on whatever character you want and the benefits apply to all, but you aren't going to get 500 points per character to spend. Otherwise I am off to make a full set of alts!
I'm not sure where this misinformation comes from and the problem is that it is spread by very vocal players in the community and they are wrong. Please review my previous link above and here is now a second source. Start at 30m53s.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0UUsPRdY5k&t=30m53s
These aren't customer service reps who may not have all the correct information making these statements. In the first video that is Maria Aliprando and she is the developer in charge of the CS. And above we have Paul "Huge G" Sage. Of course everything in development is subject to change, but this particular part of it will not be.
@AssaultLemming, there is no need to create alts to get your maximum champion point conversion. In fact the time you spend getting to 50 on that alt won't count. Please see the post below for a full explanation.
http://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/2i771y/discussion_zos_is_tracking_your_xp_after_vr14_for/
Also this post by Maria:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/comment/1303290/#Comment_1303290Edited by Dominoid on October 22, 2014 11:51AM2 -
leandro.800ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭Traking xp post VR14 is great. I cant imagine a grinder vr14 have the same amount of champion points as a vr14 that did all quests and is lv50 in all professions.1 -
Artis✭✭✭✭✭
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Sigh, no, 15% dodge doesn't make me an evasion tank. And if I want more, I would need to stack it with Medium Armor evasion(not sure if they stack). And anyways, it's ANOTHER piece of pie. Other classes get evasion from armor skill line. Besides, he was talking about ARMOR. It's a separate calculation if 15% dodge makes it up for missing armor. So that a NB will be able to have a 30%-pieceVileIntent wrote: »*sigh*
No, Nightblades are evasion tanks. It is best to play them to avoid the damage all together.30% - Buffs (class/weapon skills and passives, potions, food) - They want to promote "active" combat so it gets the biggest chunk.0 -
Aesthier✭✭✭✭✭
So what does all of this mean? You are going to have to make commitments to be the very best at a particular stat. Which is really going to give us more varied builds.
I am not in disagreement with the changes as I see them finally giving more weight to skill choices, and thus giving skills themselves more weight in the game.
But to say this gives us more varied builds is really just a fallacy.
I project that it won't take more then 6 months for the "cookie cutter build" effect to fully supernova.
I admit that cookie cutters builds and the drama that ensues over them are a community creation but the truth is they are a secondary creation of game design by building a game where certain builds are more effective than others.
Unfortunately that just the way it is and will be for a very long time to come.
[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Images in Signatures]Edited by ZOS_UlyssesW on November 24, 2014 6:34PM0 -
Cherryblossom✭✭✭✭✭
✭Having read your Post, I very much doubt ZOS has.
So I think the whole system probably hasn't been thought out quite as well as you have.....0 -
Jahosefat✭✭✭✭dwemer_paleologist wrote: »- lol
- where is the evidence of this work?
- have you seen the champion system in full swing working on the live server and able to show us some evidence of it's success?
- how much of your thesis is based on speculation?
"the bulk of players simply play. But you are the top 5% so what I am about to say might not make sense to you. The reality is that most players won’t care or need to understand it. They simply trust that the system works, that their stats are adding naturally and they will continue to simply play."
OP is more or less word-for-word what was said about the CS at the guild summit. Give the audio a listen.
Joeshock- AD NA AB Thorn Chill Sorc New Eden Low Sec Roamer
Fight not with monsters lest ye become one0 -
Dominoid✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Cherryblossom wrote: »Having read your Post, I very much doubt ZOS has.
So I think the whole system probably hasn't been thought out quite as well as you have.....
This is ZOS's implementation. Just my recap of what they said:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcIaOzyOUL0&index=4&list=PL4tB6flpmULhqxX08AijZUFmwJ1LlMqD_ 0 -
LonePirate✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Supposedly in the Twitch chat from this past Friday's ESO Live show, Jessica confirmed that CS will be released in 1.6. Did anyone else witness this or hear of it?0 -
Winnower✭✭✭✭It is my understanding that CS points will come from getting 1 million xp from any source of the characters on your account. Then you get 1 CS point to give to 1 Character. You don't get a CS point for all 8 characters (even if they're all 50+).
Ergo, if you start off the CS system with 50 points, you'll be able to give 50 points to the trees of 1 character; or 10 each to 5 50+ level characters; or any other distribution you want: but you won't start with 50 points for the trees of all your 50+ characters.
Under this system when you get a new character to level 50+ it doesn't magically get the same number of CS points as the main you've invested so many CS points in. You'll have to grind out Nx1million where N gets increasingly large over time in order to "catch up" to any fully developed characters you already have.
How anyone is going to grind out new "max level" competing characters is beyond me. There just isn't going to be any way for someone to make a character that can compete with someone who has put all their CS points into one toon.
I see this is being extremely limiting; you can make 1 character out of 8 strong, or you can make 8 out of 8 weak ones, but if you want to have a good tank you'd better not count on being able to have a good dps in another class or a good healer in yet another class. Not unless you're willing to grind out just as many CS points over time as you did on the first character - and in the meantime your competition will be still throwing all points into one character, so even your best character will be behind.
There will be no "catching up" ever.VR14 Templar, VR14 DK, VR8 DK, VR7 NB, VR1 Sorcerer;
All 3 Alliances;
2 Pre-order Imperial Accounts, yes that means 16 characters on NA alone3 -
Kraven✭✭✭✭✭I'm all for lateral progression, a way to improve and individualize your build a bit. However I play my NB as a tank, not as often as I use to because let's face it people are close minded and prefer DKs, some are starting to see Sorcs as viable tanks. I am not an "evasion" tank honestly there is no real evasion tank in ESO, the miss chance from NB tree is crap and I for one don't use it at all.
I'm a tap tank, I have high health and armor and skills that return resources. If such a system limits the ability for anyone other than a DK in heavy armor to tank then it is a broken system that is breaking the game. If I can't melee dps on my DK because NB is better suited and CS pigeon holes classes into roles then it's broken and I'll be done at that point. I have not to this point taken a break or quit playing for any extended period of time. I've enjoyed the ups and downs since early beta and as a stamina build at that.
However with group dungeons being made easier, again. With 8 minute trial runs being perfectly okay as end game content. With mage builds still pulling at least twice the dps of stamina, witnessed crushing shock builds hit 3k single target, 2k with regular consistency. A loot system that is absolutely ridiculous, watching tank and healer get a dps bow from DSA 3 runs in a row. Dailies that give you a slight small chance once a day to possibly get a shoulder piece then an even lower chance of getting one of the right armor type and trait combo turning dungeons into a grind. Not even mentioning the PvP issues. Class/build balance rampantly lopsided. Memory leaks. Even food which has a defined number not giving the amount it says.
Every time it's little things I can over look, I can live with, I can adjust to. I'm a patient person. CS is suppose to allow you to improve your character not rebuild it up back to where it already is. Not to pigeon hole you into a certain role based on class. Not make meta builds required. You HAVE to get this as a tank and HAVE to get this as a dps and HAVE to be a sorc to get the most out of magicka or a NB to get the most out of a stamina weapon build. If the CS does any of this they've shot themselves in the foot and I will finally have lost my patience.V14 - IMPERIAL NIGHTBLADE - DPS/TANK
V13 - BRETON SORCERER - HEALS/DPS
V2 - REDGUARD DRAGONKNIGHT - MELEE DPS
V1 - BRETON TEMPLAR - TANK/DPS
to be continued... Nevermind, no longer "to be continued"2 -
Dominoid✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭LonePirate wrote: »Supposedly in the Twitch chat from this past Friday's ESO Live show, Jessica confirmed that CS will be released in 1.6. Did anyone else witness this or hear of it?
It allegedly happened before the stream started so my video including Twitch chat of the stream did not include it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_uvZpt-9Uk 0 -
Dominoid✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It is my understanding that CS points will come from getting 1 million xp from any source of the characters on your account. Then you get 1 CS point to give to 1 Character. You don't get a CS point for all 8 characters (even if they're all 50+).
Ergo, if you start off the CS system with 50 points, you'll be able to give 50 points to the trees of 1 character; or 10 each to 5 50+ level characters; or any other distribution you want: but you won't start with 50 points for the trees of all your 50+ characters.
Under this system when you get a new character to level 50+ it doesn't magically get the same number of CS points as the main you've invested so many CS points in. You'll have to grind out Nx1million where N gets increasingly large over time in order to "catch up" to any fully developed characters you already have.
How anyone is going to grind out new "max level" competing characters is beyond me. There just isn't going to be any way for someone to make a character that can compete with someone who has put all their CS points into one toon.
I see this is being extremely limiting; you can make 1 character out of 8 strong, or you can make 8 out of 8 weak ones, but if you want to have a good tank you'd better not count on being able to have a good dps in another class or a good healer in yet another class. Not unless you're willing to grind out just as many CS points over time as you did on the first character - and in the meantime your competition will be still throwing all points into one character, so even your best character will be behind.
There will be no "catching up" ever.
These assumptions are incorrect. Firstly the "Average" player will gain a champion point each hour. The XP required will not be one million - that is the current VR progression, but the two are separate and VR is going away a little after CS release.
Secondly Champion Points are account wide and used separately by all characters, If you have 50 champion points you get to spend them individually on ALL character (all 50 of them) as you see fit for that character. I am 100% positive of this. The only contradictory information is if you have to hit level 50 on ALTs before you can spend them. In the Audio linked they say even sub 50 ALTs get to spend earned Champion Points but Paul had previously said you'd get to spend them once you hit level 50 on the ALT.Edited by Dominoid on November 24, 2014 3:32PM0 -
Dominoid✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I'm all for lateral progression, a way to improve and individualize your build a bit. However I play my NB as a tank, not as often as I use to because let's face it people are close minded and prefer DKs, some are starting to see Sorcs as viable tanks. I am not an "evasion" tank honestly there is no real evasion tank in ESO, the miss chance from NB tree is crap and I for one don't use it at all.
I'm a tap tank, I have high health and armor and skills that return resources. If such a system limits the ability for anyone other than a DK in heavy armor to tank then it is a broken system that is breaking the game. If I can't melee dps on my DK because NB is better suited and CS pigeon holes classes into roles then it's broken and I'll be done at that point. I have not to this point taken a break or quit playing for any extended period of time. I've enjoyed the ups and downs since early beta and as a stamina build at that.
However with group dungeons being made easier, again. With 8 minute trial runs being perfectly okay as end game content. With mage builds still pulling at least twice the dps of stamina, witnessed crushing shock builds hit 3k single target, 2k with regular consistency. A loot system that is absolutely ridiculous, watching tank and healer get a dps bow from DSA 3 runs in a row. Dailies that give you a slight small chance once a day to possibly get a shoulder piece then an even lower chance of getting one of the right armor type and trait combo turning dungeons into a grind. Not even mentioning the PvP issues. Class/build balance rampantly lopsided. Memory leaks. Even food which has a defined number not giving the amount it says.
Every time it's little things I can over look, I can live with, I can adjust to. I'm a patient person. CS is suppose to allow you to improve your character not rebuild it up back to where it already is. Not to pigeon hole you into a certain role based on class. Not make meta builds required. You HAVE to get this as a tank and HAVE to get this as a dps and HAVE to be a sorc to get the most out of magicka or a NB to get the most out of a stamina weapon build. If the CS does any of this they've shot themselves in the foot and I will finally have lost my patience.
I agree with your concerns but the difference between a fully optimized DK tank and a sorc tank in the CS will most likely be equivalent to the stat difference between VR5 Gear and VR10 gear - noticeable but nothing skill can't overcome.Edited by Dominoid on November 24, 2014 3:31PM1 -
LonePirate✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭It is my understanding that CS points will come from getting 1 million xp from any source of the characters on your account. Then you get 1 CS point to give to 1 Character. You don't get a CS point for all 8 characters (even if they're all 50+).
I'm not sure where you are obtaining your information; but I would recommend you find a new source as none of that is right.
Supposedly the average player will earn one new champion point in about of hour of gameplay. That would put champion points somewhere between 10K-50K worth of XP. Obviously that is much less than what you claim.
Also, the points are shared across all characters on an account. All of your characters benefit whenever one of them earns a champion point.
I welcome anybody from ZOS to correct my statements here.0 -
Dominoid✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭LonePirate wrote: »
I'm not sure where you are obtaining your information; but I would recommend you find a new source as none of that is right.
Supposedly the average player will earn one new champion point in about of hour of gameplay. That would put champion points somewhere between 10K-50K worth of XP. Obviously that is much less than what you claim.
Also, the points are shared across all characters on an account. All of your characters benefit whenever one of them earns a champion point.
I welcome anybody from ZOS to correct my statements here.
You're correct.0 -
spryler✭✭✭A couple things I'd like to weigh in on.
First, out of all the MMO end-game advancement varieties, Everquest's Alternate Experience was BY FAR my favorite. This Championship system sounds like it is most closely related to EQ AA xp, so I am excited.
This isn't a nerf or a weakening of your character. Just because you no longer have 50% damage mitigation on day 1 is not a bad thing, it's a good thing. They are retuning the content, so even with 0 Champion points you will still be able to complete all the content that you can now. The difference is that as you spend points you become more specialized in your chosen role. Over time this will actually make you a more powerful tank. Better than you are now (relative to the other players).
Don't get caught up with the exact numbers. Everyone can max out their main stats quite easily and that's no good imo.
Should 2handed tanks be able to mitigate as much damage as 1h and shield?
Should light armor be able to mitigate as much damage as heavy armor?
These are the questions you should be thinking about. This is a good thing, don't worry!0
