ZOS. How? Why?

Vatter

HOW are you this bad at creating and maintaining a video game?

1. Cyrodiil STILL crashing constantly
2. Cyrodiil rubberbanding, lag, and fps STILL not fixed
3. Immovable STILL not working against archers, shield bash, stampede.
4. Cannot attack bug STILL not fixed.
5. The perma root bug STILL not fixed.
6. STILL not interacting with keep doors properly.
7. Cannot weapon swap in combat bug STILL not fixed.
8. Health bars STILL not syncing correctly.
9. Damage scaling bug STILL not fixed.
10. Animation de-syncs STILL not fixed.
11. Loss of character control bug STILL not fixed.

Not to mention the current exploits that STILL have not been fixed.

WHY? Why is it impossible for you to fix these?
WHY? Why do we have to continue to put up with this?
WHY? Why are you making it SO difficult to enjoy this game?

DogFaceInBananaPatch

I'm glad I just pick flowers.

Reiterpallasch

Meanwhile, at ZOS HQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2ZkJd4u0Us

Moonshadow66

DogFaceInBananaPatch wrote: »

I'm glad I just pick flowers.

Made my day^^

DuelWieldingCheesyPoofs

Reiterpallasch wrote: »

Meanwhile, at ZOS HQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2ZkJd4u0Us

that's the funniest thing ive seen!

DuelWieldingCheesyPoofs

Vatter wrote: »

HOW are you this bad at creating and maintaining a video game?

1. Cyrodiil STILL crashing constantly
2. Cyrodiil rubberbanding, lag, and fps STILL not fixed
3. Immovable STILL not working against archers, shield bash, stampede.
4. Cannot attack bug STILL not fixed.
5. The perma root bug STILL not fixed.
6. STILL not interacting with keep doors properly.
7. Cannot weapon swap in combat bug STILL not fixed.
8. Health bars STILL not syncing correctly.
9. Damage scaling bug STILL not fixed.
10. Animation de-syncs STILL not fixed.
11. Loss of character control bug STILL not fixed.

Not to mention the current exploits that STILL have not been fixed.

WHY? Why is it impossible for you to fix these?
WHY? Why do we have to continue to put up with this?
WHY? Why are you making it SO difficult to enjoy this game?

this ! Getting sick and tiered now too! Can expect us to keep puting up with this rubish!

zgrssd

Vatter wrote: »

HOW are you this bad at creating and maintaining a video game?

[...]

WHY? Why is it impossible for you to fix these?
WHY? Why do we have to continue to put up with this?
WHY? Why are you making it SO difficult to enjoy this game?

There are 10b kinds of people:
Those that understand how hard a job is and thus won't complain about acceptable/expected mistakes like those.
Those who do not and thus shouldn't run thier mouths about stuff they could not comprehend in a decade of study.
You are obviously the later.


Making a MMO is as complex as building a City from scratch. While also having to minimise running costs.
Explain me how you can even ask there to be no problem with a project that scale?

Reiterpallasch

zgrssd wrote: »

Making a MMO is as complex as building a City from scratch. While also having to minimise running costs.

In our city we have buildings falling down, the roads are non functional and people can't get to where they are going, homeless are starving and/or freezing in the streets, unemployment is through the roof, the education and health systems are in shambles and mass transit just doesn't function.

Oh, but did I mention we're working on building a shiny new amusement park?

zgrssd

Reiterpallasch wrote: »

zgrssd wrote: »

Making a MMO is as complex as building a City from scratch. While also having to minimise running costs.

In our city we have buildings falling down, the roads are non functional and people can't get to where they are going, homeless are starving and/or freezing in the streets, unemployment is through the roof, the education and health systems are in shambles and mass transit just doesn't function.

Oh, but did I mention we're working on building a shiny new amusement park?

Wow, that much hyperbole is needed just to distract from my little point?

In the actuall city we have there are some minor errors in building the houses, that unfortuantely affect everyones houses.
Also in the city that is a MMO those bugs tend to only appear in actuall use, but in turn it is a lot easier to fix them in every affected building.

Also they are not nearly powerfull enough to let peopel die from starvation


Edit: Noticed that you did choose very selective quoting. You avoided the question I posted (the real point).
So let me repeat:
Explain me how you can even ask there to be no problem with a project that scale?

CapuchinSeven

zgrssd wrote: »

Vatter wrote: »

HOW are you this bad at creating and maintaining a video game?

[...]

WHY? Why is it impossible for you to fix these?
WHY? Why do we have to continue to put up with this?
WHY? Why are you making it SO difficult to enjoy this game?

There are 10b kinds of people:
Those that understand how hard a job is and thus won't complain about acceptable/expected mistakes like those.
Those who do not and thus shouldn't run thier mouths about stuff they could not comprehend in a decade of study.
You are obviously the later.


Making a MMO is as complex as building a City from scratch. While also having to minimise running costs.
Explain me how you can even ask there to be no problem with a project that scale?

Utter rubbish, utter utter utter rubbish. I'm a computer scientist and the constant release of game breaking bugs into each and every live patch, which then go unfixed is frankly amateurish.

Bugs like the bow health bar lag should never have made it into live.

zgrssd wrote: »

Those that understand how hard a job is and thus won't complain about acceptable/expected mistakes like those.

Once or even twice is understandable, massive bugs happen and get missed, even when they are massive. Every single large patch is not acceptable or expected.

Either they are inept, or the suits are pushing unreasonable expectations on them. Maybe even both.

Reiterpallasch wrote: »

zgrssd wrote: »

Making a MMO is as complex as building a City from scratch. While also having to minimise running costs.

In our city we have buildings falling down, the roads are non functional and people can't get to where they are going, homeless are starving and/or freezing in the streets, unemployment is through the roof, the education and health systems are in shambles and mass transit just doesn't function.

Oh, but did I mention we're working on building a shiny new amusement park?

This. I have zero faith in them to get any of the new features right, let alone balance something like spell crafting.

Neizir

Do you know how hard it is to fix bugs in a game as big as ESO, that has millions of lines of code?

Imagine that you're trying to recreate the Simpsons' theme song using dominoes in an area as big as a large town. You then learn that there are flaws in the massive "network" of dominoes but don't know where. Then you have to scour the entire "network" looking for the flaws. Remember that you're trying to recreate the Simpsons' theme song using a complex network of dominoes in an area as big as a large town.

Sounds tough now, doesn't it?

KhajitFurTrader

This just in: software has bugs. Users are flabbergasted. News at 11.

Arkadius

Neizir wrote: »

Do you know how hard it is to fix bugs in a game as big as ESO, that has millions of lines of code?

This highly depends on the type of the bug. Things like memory leaks can be really hard to track down, especially in multithreaded applications.

But not being able to fix ancient bugs, like not working keep doors, or constantly breaking stuff that worked before, is an indication of a bad game engine desgin, which simply can't be excused.

CapuchinSeven

Neizir wrote: »

Do you know how hard it is to fix bugs in a game as big as ESO, that has millions of lines of code?

Yup, I do actually.

Neizir wrote: »

Sounds tough now, doesn't it?

To write software that doesn't have a bug? Impossible.

To test your patches (or reported on the test server making it even easier for you) and NOT push those out with glaring bugs that literally break gameplay? No, that's not tough at all.

Bugs happen and as long as humans are in control they always will. Force rolling out patches with game breaking bugs with your fingers in your ears yelling "la la la la la" is not acceptable, and people like you defending it are why the game industry has become such a joke.

KhajitFurTrader wrote: »

This just in: software has bugs. Users are flabbergasted. News at 11.

*wooosh* that's the point going over your head.

Thralgaf

I've said it before. Why do gaming companies get a pass from customers that are paying for a service? You folks that are piling on the OP-look at it this way : if you forked out 49.99 for a 6 speed blender only to find out only 5 speeds worked, would you happily continue to use the product? Would your reasoning be that blender technology is hard work?

Sharee

Thralgaf wrote: »

I've said it before. Why do gaming companies get a pass from customers that are paying for a service?

Because people like what they are getting for their money.

That does not mean they like the bugs, that just means that the stuff that works is worth their money. And there is a lot more stuff in this game that works than stuff that doesn't.

KhajitFurTrader

Cue the car and kitchen appliance comparisons, which are totally valid, because apples and oranges are the same thing, as everyone knows.

Damn, too late.

Sharee

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

Bugs happen and as long as humans are in control they always will. Force rolling out patches with game breaking bugs with your fingers in your ears yelling "la la la la la" is not acceptable, and people like you defending it are why the game industry has become such a joke.

People defending it understand that testing is not a ON-OFF thing. It is a process. The more time you spend on it, the better the result.

You seem to think that nothing but a flawless result is acceptable, and (presumably) that the time spent to achieve that result is irrelevant. But other customers/players do not share that opinion. They do not want their 1.3 patch to stay on the test server for half a year, they want it NOW.

Running a MMO is about finding a compromise between these two customer groups. And that means you release your patch as soon as it is deemed 'good enough' for the majority of your playerbase, and fix the rest later.

Thralgaf

Sharee wrote: »

Thralgaf wrote: »

I've said it before. Why do gaming companies get a pass from customers that are paying for a service?

Because people like what they are getting for their money.

That does not mean they like the bugs, that just means that the stuff that works is worth their money. And there is a lot more stuff in this game that works than stuff that doesn't.

By people, you mean you? The OP isn't satisfied.

KitLightning

@Neizir I once made a song over the theme of Star Wars only made up by the words "Om Nom Nom". That was really hard... to listen to... but it was doable

CapuchinSeven

KhajitFurTrader wrote: »

Cue the car and kitchen appliance comparisons, which are totally valid, because apples and oranges are the same thing, as everyone knows.

Damn, too late.

No, you're wrong, they really are valid.

Bugs happen, BUT it's the choice of a company if they push them out live or not (so we can just deal with it until they fix it, IF they fix it). They DO know about these bugs before they go live, many of them are reported on the test server.

Thralgaf

KhajitFurTrader wrote: »

Cue the car and kitchen appliance comparisons, which are totally valid, because apples and oranges are the same thing, as everyone knows.

Damn, too late.

Cue the apples and oranges rebuttals, which are totally valid, because gaming companies don't charge for their products.

Damn, too late.

CapuchinSeven

Sharee wrote: »

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

Bugs happen and as long as humans are in control they always will. Force rolling out patches with game breaking bugs with your fingers in your ears yelling "la la la la la" is not acceptable, and people like you defending it are why the game industry has become such a joke.

People defending it understand that testing is not a ON-OFF thing. It is a process. The more time you spend on it, the better the result.

You seem to think that nothing but a flawless result is acceptable, and (presumably) that the time spent to achieve that result is irrelevant. But other customers/players do not share that opinion. They do not want their 1.3 patch to stay on the test server for half a year, they want it NOW.

Running a MMO is about finding a compromise between these two customer groups. And that means you release your patch as soon as it is deemed 'good enough' for the majority of your playerbase, and fix the rest later.

Rubbish, if we pushed our software and patches out with the same software breaking bugs that ZOS keeps pushing out we'd be out of business, but because this is a computer game for some reason they get a pass because people like you think it's okay because "it's hard".

We are not talking about simple bugs here, we're talking about broken code that literally breaks a large aspect of the game, and no, those are not acceptable to be constantly making it into live. We're not talking about a few times here, we're talking about every large patch. PVP is currently about working around which latest bug has broken gameplay while you wait for that to be fixed and wonder which the next one will be.

Sharee

Thralgaf wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Thralgaf wrote: »

I've said it before. Why do gaming companies get a pass from customers that are paying for a service?

Because people like what they are getting for their money.

That does not mean they like the bugs, that just means that the stuff that works is worth their money. And there is a lot more stuff in this game that works than stuff that doesn't.

By people, you mean you? The OP isn't satisfied.

No. By people, i mean the hundreds of thousands of people who did not vote with their wallets and leave the game despite all the bugs the OP mentions.

Sharee

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

Rubbish, if we pushed our software and patches out with the same software breaking bugs that ZOS keeps pushing out we'd be out of business,"

You're in the MMO business? No?

Well then.

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

We are not talking about simple bugs here, we're talking about broken code that literally breaks a large aspect of the game, and no, those are not acceptable to be constantly making it into live.

Obviously, they are acceptable, since people are still playing.

Thralgaf

Sharee wrote: »

Thralgaf wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Thralgaf wrote: »

I've said it before. Why do gaming companies get a pass from customers that are paying for a service?

Because people like what they are getting for their money.

That does not mean they like the bugs, that just means that the stuff that works is worth their money. And there is a lot more stuff in this game that works than stuff that doesn't.

By people, you mean you? The OP isn't satisfied.

No. By people, i mean the hundreds of thousands of people who did not vote with their wallets and leave the game despite all the bugs the OP mentions.

So you have irrefutable evidence that hundreds of thousands didn't vote with their wallets and leave the game? Besides, that's not the argument here (nice try). The argument is why do folks pile on paying customers voicing their frustration with product that isn't performing to their standard?

CapuchinSeven

Sharee wrote: »

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

Rubbish, if we pushed our software and patches out with the same software breaking bugs that ZOS keeps pushing out we'd be out of business,"

You're in the MMO business? No?

Well then.

Yes actually, I've worked in the game industry as a tester and as a software engineer and know many game developers today.

I currently work on robotic arm and winch systems using fuzzy logic. When our software doesn't work, people die.

Again, pushing out broken patches is a choice and every single patch does not have to be pushed out in a broken state.

Sharee wrote: »

Obviously, they are acceptable, since people are still playing.

Your logic, it's broken, like this software.

Thralgaf

Sharee wrote: »

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

Rubbish, if we pushed our software and patches out with the same software breaking bugs that ZOS keeps pushing out we'd be out of business,"

You're in the MMO business? No?

Well then.

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

We are not talking about simple bugs here, we're talking about broken code that literally breaks a large aspect of the game, and no, those are not acceptable to be constantly making it into live.

Obviously, they are acceptable, since people are still playing.

Obviously, they are not acceptable, since people are no longer playing. We can do this all day.

CapuchinSeven

Thralgaf wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

Rubbish, if we pushed our software and patches out with the same software breaking bugs that ZOS keeps pushing out we'd be out of business,"

You're in the MMO business? No?

Well then.

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

We are not talking about simple bugs here, we're talking about broken code that literally breaks a large aspect of the game, and no, those are not acceptable to be constantly making it into live.

Obviously, they are acceptable, since people are still playing.

Obviously, they are not acceptable, since people are no longer playing. We can do this all day.

Indeed, his logic is totally borked.

Sharee

Thralgaf wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Thralgaf wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Thralgaf wrote: »

I've said it before. Why do gaming companies get a pass from customers that are paying for a service?

Because people like what they are getting for their money.

That does not mean they like the bugs, that just means that the stuff that works is worth their money. And there is a lot more stuff in this game that works than stuff that doesn't.

By people, you mean you? The OP isn't satisfied.

No. By people, i mean the hundreds of thousands of people who did not vote with their wallets and leave the game despite all the bugs the OP mentions.

So you have irrefutable evidence that hundreds of thousands didn't vote with their wallets and leave the game? Besides, that's not the argument here (nice try). The argument is why do folks pile on paying customers voicing their frustration with product that isn't performing to their standard?

If you feel that i 'pile' on you, sorry, that is not my intention.

I am just answering your question "why do people pay for someting they are not satisfied with". The answer is "They do not. They either are satisfied enough to pay, or they do not pay".

Sharee

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

Rubbish, if we pushed our software and patches out with the same software breaking bugs that ZOS keeps pushing out we'd be out of business,"

You're in the MMO business? No?

Well then.

Yes actually, I've worked in the game industry as a tester and as a software engineer and know many game developers today.

Ah. And which MMO that has released flawless patches with no bugs in them have you worked on?

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

I currently work on robotic arm and winch systems using fuzzy logic. When our software doesn't work, people die.

And that's the difference between your work and an MMO.

Your customers are ony satisfied with perfectly working software. The length of debugging plays no role - either it is perfect, or you lose customers.

An MMO on the other hand cannot afford an unlimited testing period. You will lose customers because your patches take too long, not becaus they aren't perfect.