[old thread remastered] AoE Cap and Zergtrains. Thoughts to date?

briandivisionb16_ESO

I remember this thread.
Here was the original post:

The ‘horrible AOE cap’

We have heard big hitters such at Atropos of tamriel foundry, and many distinguished PvP guilds disagree with the AOE cap, but are we being listened to?


Just going to outline a few things here. I’m looking forward to seeing how it goes.



OK. So a small and smart tactical squad can no longer take down larger numbers, under any circumstance.

In fact – in ALL circumstances, you simply need larger numbers of AOE spammers.



Here’s some basic math for you, Zenimax:

AOE cap = 6 targets (generally)

Barrier = 24 targets



The problem that is shown here is the fact that defense outweighs offence.

What happens when 30 guys run in casting DPS AOE vs. 30 guys chaining Barrier? The DPS AOE is random. No 2 DPS AOE will hit the same 6 guys.



ZOS, because of the AOE cap, and given that defense outweighs offence, PvP is unfortunately no longer about being smart.

It is now simplified: which group has the most close range DPS spam? Which group has the higher numbers?



I hate it! I want strategy. I want people to THINK rather than hitting 2 buttons, and running with the highest numbers. Noob scrubs I could faceroll in PvP with my eyes closed are no longer killable.

Just saying – people SHOULD think to scatter when they see annoying batswarms, and nasty AOE skills.



Ultimately? We the pvpers want you to remove the AOE spam that Cyrodiil has become. Haha it’s funny, the very thing you sought to remove by adding an AOE cap has become much, much, MUCH worse.



Further reading:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/88049/do-you-think-there-should-be-an-aoe-cap/p1 “Do you think there should be an AOE cap?” The vote results were [No: 87% 3374] [Yes: 12% 486]

http://tamrielfoundry.com/2014/04/eso-target-caps/ Article by Atropos designer of the biggest PvP forum. Against AOE cap.

http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/number-of-targets-hit-by-aoe/ More

http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/the-case-for-aoe-per-cast-target-caps/ More

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/88466/aoe-cap-eliminates-strategy-for-both-aoe-and-single-target VERY true.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/search?Page=p1&Search=aoe+cap Need I go on? 61 pages! 90% of which are against AOE cap.

Here was a later edit after ZOS commented on the AoE caps:

AoE Target Cap Updates

Eric recognized the current meta of stacking in AoE and distributing damage throughout your group. This isn’t the gameplay ZOS wants, they want large groups of abilities to be vulnerable to AoE and afraid of AoE. Some important concerns to consider with increasing the AoE cap are:

Effect on Ultimate generation
Application of secondary effects (stuns, CCs)
Additional server load
Effects on PvE balance
The solution ZOS is currently considering involves healing remaining capped at 6 targets, but AoE damage being unlimited in the number of targets it can affect, but subjecting that damage to a damage falloff effect where as an AoE hits more and more targets the damage dealt to additional targets decreases by some scaled percentage.

I've edited this post and thread to reflect these positive comments from ZOS.
We have not gone unheard, my friends. I may even re-sub!

I'm back again because a lot of what was said still stands true.
The changes to AoE caps haven't stopped groups of people spamming AoE damage and AoE heals.
The changes to AoE caps haven't stopped zergs.

Lowest numbered group falls over.
Anyone who doesn't group falls over.
Strategy.
Means.
Nothing.

What can we do?
This is an age old problem now!
We've tried, haven't we?
Thread after thread after debate after suggestion, after feedback after complaint. (see above spoiler for links)
Magica Detonation to combat bombgroups, only resulting in stronger bombgroups.
The damage nerf. Multitudes of skill changes.

We are trying, ZOS. We play your DLC. We still pay our subs.
I have 90+ days played on this game and I will tell you 100% truth that the attitude of your playerbase is simply apathetic - bored. Player vs Player is peaking right now in the campaigns, because everyone is fed up of imperial city and testing their builds. If they spend a week and realise they can do nothing against numbers they'll soon get fed up. Yes, I'll give it a week tops before your playerbase starts to fall off.

The bottom line ZOS, is: we need more. We need a counter against zergs. We need an option to PvP where zergs will not interfere and actual strategy, thought and skill are involved.

Vahrokh

Being an AoE specced sorc, I really see your points.

However - not even talking about the game balance aspects, other PvP games I have done before ESO had to put AoE caps. The reason? The server needs to calculate in real time the mutual player effects of HoTs, DoTs and AoE, the more there are in the area the more exponentially intensive it becomes to keep account of all the effects. This causes a lot of server "lag" (un-responsiveness actually) which in other games really crippled PvP.

So, when (not if) AoE becomes a true "PvP doctrine" in a MMO, they usually have to cap AoE targets or face worse consequences.

Said that, this would justify nerfing barrier down to the same numbers. Balance is restored and game engine thanks you even more.

briandivisionb16_ESO

Also slightly off topic, batswarm/AOE nerf. http://pastebin.com/cNNULtCJ
Please speak up, if the AOE change appeals to you, community. RT and add interest.

briandivisionb16_ESO

Vahrokh wrote: »

Said that, this would justify nerfing barrier down to the same numbers. Balance is restored and game engine thanks you even more.

Server lag aside,it's not just barrier though. When someone drops a heal, doesn't it target the 6 injured targets? We still have a problem.
I hate the turtle train PvP. And this might sound like QQ but I'm out in a few patches if this isn't changed.

Just want to add this link again: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/88466/aoe-cap-eliminates-strategy-for-both-aoe-and-single-target it is uncanny because this is EXACTLY what's happening now. It's horrific.

And the vote. WTF. 3374 vs. 486

Larira

Vahrokh wrote: »

Being an AoE specced sorc, I really see your points.

However - not even talking about the game balance aspects, other PvP games I have done before ESO had to put AoE caps. The reason? The server needs to calculate in real time the mutual player effects of HoTs, DoTs and AoE, the more there are in the area the more exponentially intensive it becomes to keep account of all the effects. This causes a lot of server "lag" (un-responsiveness actually) which in other games really crippled PvP.

So, when (not if) AoE becomes a true "PvP doctrine" in a MMO, they usually have to cap AoE targets or face worse consequences.

Said that, this would justify nerfing barrier down to the same numbers. Balance is restored and game engine thanks you even more.

Then they should upgrade their servers. In Daoc there were no such caps and the servers could handle it with much older and slower hardware.


Greetings

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

Vahrokh wrote: »

So, when (not if) AoE becomes a true "PvP doctrine" in a MMO, they usually have to cap AoE targets or face worse consequences.

Or, you know, simply balance individual abilities.

hamon

another part of the problem which ive touched upon is that by far the strongest AOE in this game is PB-AOE (impulse) what is lacking and would help spread out blobs is ranged aoe with proper splash effects this would mean even with caps a large spread out number all focusing the blob would be hitting so many it would be killable. but those same abilities would not be overpowered if folk spread out beyond the splash effect.

things like splintered arrows , chain lightning , fireballs, poison or disease type dots. that infect close range players to the one you hit.

as an example of where splash stopped blobbing. was warhammer. where bright wizards were extremely powerfull at breaking up blobs. they could fire strong splash type nukes and dots that meant blobbing was suicide with a few bright wizards around.
which was part of the reason everyone wanted them to be nerfed.

but in ESO the spalsh type effects that exist (like shards for example) do pityfull damage. Or they are close range like cleave. which is suicde againts a blob spamming impulse.

Tubben

Larira wrote: »

Then they should upgrade their servers. In Daoc there were no such caps and the servers could handle it with much older and slower hardware.
[/quote]

No they could not.

Oberon

briandivisionb16_ESO wrote: »

Here’s some basic math for you, Zenimax:

AOE cap = 6 targets (generally)

Barrier = 24 targets

What happens when 30 guys run in casting DPS AOE vs. 30 guys chaining Barrier?

Barrier is an ultimate with a 250 base cost--30 guys "chaining" it is beyond improbable. AOE caps certainly have their down (and up) sides, but a straw man argument isn't going to convince ZOS to change it.

TheFalcon19

How can people not realize what would happen without the aoe cap?

The two main reasons against the aoe cap is just not valid:

1. wrecking balls exist because of the aoe cap:
yes this is true, but thanks to the aoe cap there's a limit to their damage and their individual ultimate regen, so they usually fall against numbers and they are not that hard to wipe with a smaller group if you use a proper tactic.
Now the lack of an aoe cap would give them an even bigger reason to exist since all of their aoes would hit everyone all the time. Imagine that damage output, and the fact that their dots would tick on all enemies at once, so one elemental ring->ultimate ready->infinite ultimate. You think it's bad now? Imagine pvp where everyone in the wrecking ball group is spamming infinte batswarm.

2. no aoe cap would promote solo play and individual skill:
No it wouldn't, because you could just sneak into large groups of enemies, spam aoe and infinite ultimates and you would probably win. That's no skill, that's just stupid. I mean you people call wrecking balls 'noobs who spam 2 buttons and win', yet technically you would become a 'noob who spams two buttons and wins'. Believe me, the average pvper would hate these solo aoe spammers just as much (or even more) than they hate wrecking balls.

You might say that this is just the worst case scenario and it probably wouldn't happen, but there's one thing the players of eso have proven over and over again: if there's something to abuse they will find it and abuse it. People saw that light armor and staves=higher damage and better survivability, now almost 95% players use that.
If people saw that aoe spamming=even higher damage then now, plus instant ultimates and almost garanteed survival, almost everyone would become either part of a wrecking ball or a ganker who spams Shooting Stars on groups. So we would be back to the same problem people have with pvp now, only worse.

So yeah with the current game mechanics no aoe cap is no good.

Now, if ultimate gains were different and if all skills would increase cost by 50% on every repeated cast that would be a different story.

EDIT:
I forgot to include that in all of the scenarios I'm talking about spell crit builds gaining ultimate points by dot critical hits. The skills themselves and the dots they put on players can only generate a fixed amount of ultimate points with or without the aoe caps.
There's another post below explaing my concerns a little bit better.

Wifeaggro13

briandivisionb16_ESO wrote: »

The ‘horrible AOE cap’

We have heard big hitters such at Atropos of tamriel foundry, and many distinguished PvP guilds disagree with the AOE cap, but are we being listened to?


Just going to outline a few things here. I’m looking forward to seeing how it goes.



OK. So a small and smart tactical squad can no longer take down larger numbers, under any circumstance.

In fact – in ALL circumstances, you simply need larger numbers of AOE spammers.



Here’s some basic math for you, Zenimax:

AOE cap = 6 targets (generally)

Barrier = 24 targets



The problem that is shown here is the fact that defense outweighs offence.

What happens when 30 guys run in casting DPS AOE vs. 30 guys chaining Barrier? The DPS AOE is random. No 2 DPS AOE will hit the same 6 guys.



ZOS, because of the AOE cap, and given that defense outweighs offence, PvP is unfortunately no longer about being smart.

It is now simplified: which group has the most close range DPS spam? Which group has the higher numbers?



I hate it! I want strategy. I want people to THINK rather than hitting 2 buttons, and running with the highest numbers. Noob scrubs I could faceroll in PvP with my eyes closed are no longer killable.

Just saying – people SHOULD think to scatter when they see annoying batswarms, and nasty AOE skills.



Ultimately? We the pvpers want you to remove the AOE spam that Cyrodiil has become. Haha it’s funny, the very thing you sought to remove by adding an AOE cap has become much, much, MUCH worse.



Further reading:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/88049/do-you-think-there-should-be-an-aoe-cap/p1 “Do you think there should be an AOE cap?” The vote results were [No: 87% 3374] [Yes: 12% 486]

http://tamrielfoundry.com/2014/04/eso-target-caps/ Article by Atropos designer of the biggest PvP forum. Against AOE cap.

http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/number-of-targets-hit-by-aoe/ More

http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/the-case-for-aoe-per-cast-target-caps/ More

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/88466/aoe-cap-eliminates-strategy-for-both-aoe-and-single-target VERY true.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/search?Page=p1&Search=aoe+cap Need I go on? 61 pages! 90% of which are against AOE cap.

Blame the no skill cry babies . believe me they are ruining the PVE as well, they already destroyed survivability and utility in PVE. the whole damn game is dress and stick in end game. ZOS is listening .... but unfortunately they heard the wrong voices.

ExiledKhallisi

So being smart = spamming impulse and standard? Lol..

A small party of common trolls could sneak around and pop out of thin air and press a few buttons.

Wifeaggro13

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

So being smart = spamming impulse and standard? Lol..

A small party of common trolls could sneak around and pop out of thin air and press a few buttons.

yes called strategy now it will be a large party of common trolls doing massive zergs. The beauty of Cyrodil was Zergs were discouraged . strategy was involved and good leaders could decimate and disrupt a overwhelming force that was beating the daylights out of you.

Careful planning good strategy would trump numbers much like real life.
Have you ever heard the term "i would rather have army of sheep led by a lion then an army of lions led by a sheep" quote Genghis Kahn .

CapuchinSeven

Frankly that games have such a huge amount of large player based AOE outside of siege engines gets on my nerves anyway.

Samadhi

Having AoE caps in game rewards players for zergballing.

Removing AoE caps from game would punish players that zergball, and reward players that spread out.

The message ZOS sends to me as a player is that zergballing is the way they want PvP players to play.

I prefer to play solo, and I spec for single-target damage. AoE caps being in game punish me by taking away reasonable combat scenarios for me to participate in.

briandivisionb16_ESO

Completely agree. Who wants to play as a zergball? Terrible, terrible play.
Fix it. Listen to the hundreds of threads.
Whats with the server crashes tonight?

Xsorus

TheFalcon19 wrote: »

How can people not realize what would happen without the aoe cap?

The two main reasons against the aoe cap is just not valid:

1. wrecking balls exist because of the aoe cap:
yes this is true, but thanks to the aoe cap there's a limit to their damage and their individual ultimate regen, so they usually fall against numbers and they are not that hard to wipe with a smaller group if you use a proper tactic.
Now the lack of an aoe cap would give them an even bigger reason to exist since all of their aoes would hit everyone all the time. Imagine that damage output, and the fact that their dots would tick on all enemies at once, so one elemental ring->ultimate ready->infinite ultimate. You think it's bad now? Imagine pvp where everyone in the wrecking ball group is spamming infinte batswarm.

2. no aoe cap would promote solo play and individual skill:
No it wouldn't, because you could just sneak into large groups of enemies, spam aoe and infinite ultimates and you would probably win. That's no skill, that's just stupid. I mean you people call wrecking balls 'noobs who spam 2 buttons and win', yet technically you would become a 'noob who spams two buttons and wins'. Believe me, the average pvper would hate these solo aoe spammers just as much (or even more) than they hate wrecking balls.

You might say that this is just the worst case scenario and it probably wouldn't happen, but there's one thing the players of eso have proven over and over again: if there's something to abuse they will find it and abuse it. People saw that light armor and staves=higher damage and better survivability, now almost 95% players use that.
If people saw that aoe spamming=even higher damage then now, plus instant ultimates and almost garanteed survival, almost everyone would become either part of a wrecking ball or a ganker who spams Shooting Stars on groups. So we would be back to the same problem people have with pvp now, only worse.

So yeah with the current game mechanics no aoe cap is no good.

Now, if ultimate gains were different and if all skills would increase cost by 50% on every repeated cast that would be a different story.

1. There isn't a limit to their damage, Only way to stop their damage is to stack like them. You're also not wiping them with a smaller group either. Lets talk about that damage output you're talking about as well, unless you're stacking like them..Their Damage output will be the same... If you're not stacking like them, then you receive the same amount of damage as always. In otherwords, if 24 people cast 24 impulses on a group of 6, all 6 of those players are taking 24 impulses. Removing the Caps would allow that group of 6 to sneak up onto that 24 and potentially wipe a large amount of them if that 24 were stacking which is how it should be. Finally.. Ultimate in this game is capped based on Skill use. Which means that if your Impulse could hit 24 people, you'd still not get anymore ultimate then if it hit 6 people...The current cap for most abilities is 15. Now there was a bug recently that i believe was fixed that basically allowed each individual dot of fire ring to also do 15 ultimate. But that was changed.

2. Again, Ultimates have a cap..so that's wrong. As for your chances of a solo player sneaking into a Large Group..Most likely after groups were wiped a few times they wouldn't stack anymore like Herp a Derps outside a keep or tower...At least that's how it worked in DAOC. Rewarding bad players for stacking is not my idea of rewarding skill.

AOE caps would remove wrecking ball groups, aka zerg balls from the game because those groups would be ganked in seconds if they stacked.

Your fears are pretty much hilariously wrong...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2BqTrX8zVk&list=UUXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw

Holycannoli

Not to mention that without AOE caps we would have to open multiple breaches in the walls to split the defenders up.

I see no negatives to removing the AOE cap. Zergballs are cheeseballs. It's a cheesy tactic but because of the cap it's an effective one.

The problem is I don't think the servers can handle it. Not that I think they'd have to handle a whole lot more since everyone will spread out to minimize AOE, but they do need better servers or code first.

Lynx7386

What really bugs me about the AoE caps is that their implementation has changed pvp from somewhat realistic siege warfare into completely unrealistic train-bombing zerg groups.

If your AoE is capped at 6 targets, this encourages large groups of players to stack on top of each other as a defense to it. If you have 30 people in a 5 meter circle, you know that only 6 of them are going to get hit by that incoming AoE attack.

Train bombing groups are no fun at all, and they turn pvp into a cheesefest - a cheap tactic that outperforms all other playstyles simply because game mechanics say so.


The AoE caps need to be removed entirely. Let one AoE spell hit 50-100 players if they're within range. This will force players to spread out, it will encourage a more realistic battlefield, and it will wind up creating more spread out, small scale fights where Melee builds stand a chance.

rich_nicholsonb16_ESO

Ok i found my very old daoc bomb group mess around vid, we were much better on our mid toons with the area stun but just from these you can see how not having an area cap on makes ppl spread out!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltkrjp8uOFY

@ 2.32 -This one is where we hit some group at a front gate, some were probably afk but they didn't spread out, ie in a ball...success

@ 3.00 - Now this one and the bomb after is a prime example of ppl spreading out...we die

I'm sure there are other great examples out there but spreading out without caps works great. If they stayed in a ball while we were bombing we would of wiped them.

Now daoc had cast times on spells, Eso has mainly instant spells, i would also think that a cast time is greatly needed for many of the area abilities. This is another reason why zergballing is too easy, ppl don't need to think when everything they do is instantly cast.

p.s im not the druid recording i'm the suicidal champion

firstdecan

Lynx7386 wrote: »

What really bugs me about the AoE caps is that their implementation has changed pvp from somewhat realistic siege warfare into completely unrealistic train-bombing zerg groups.

If your AoE is capped at 6 targets, this encourages large groups of players to stack on top of each other as a defense to it. If you have 30 people in a 5 meter circle, you know that only 6 of them are going to get hit by that incoming AoE attack.

Train bombing groups are no fun at all, and they turn pvp into a cheesefest - a cheap tactic that outperforms all other playstyles simply because game mechanics say so.


The AoE caps need to be removed entirely. Let one AoE spell hit 50-100 players if they're within range. This will force players to spread out, it will encourage a more realistic battlefield, and it will wind up creating more spread out, small scale fights where Melee builds stand a chance.

How exactly will this help mêlée builds? All it will do is encourage increased use of AoE abilities, increase the use of "stick and dress" builds, and make mêlée even less effective. No AoE cap is going to force people to spread out, you'll just see them continuing to zerg and spamming AoEs.

The cap is fine. It isn't there to prevent a smaller group from fighting a larger group. At a 6:1 ratio, 4 people can affect a fully formed raid (assuming equal distribution, which will not happen), although realistically you wouldn't want to be outnumbered more than 4 or 3 to one. The AoE cap is there to prevent large zergs from spamming it and completely decimating anything in its path.

Queue the l2p responses in 3, 2, 1......

Samadhi

firstdecan wrote: »

...
The cap is fine. It isn't there to prevent a smaller group from fighting a larger group. ...

firstdecan wrote: »

...
The AoE cap is there to prevent large zergs from spamming it and completely decimating anything in its path.
...

The AoE cap makes it easier for a zergball to decimate anything in its path, by limiting how much damage people in the zergball take.

briandivisionb16_ESO

The AoE cap makes it easier for a zergball to decimate anything in its path, by limiting how much damage people in the zergball take.

Lynx7386

firstdecan wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

What really bugs me about the AoE caps is that their implementation has changed pvp from somewhat realistic siege warfare into completely unrealistic train-bombing zerg groups.

If your AoE is capped at 6 targets, this encourages large groups of players to stack on top of each other as a defense to it. If you have 30 people in a 5 meter circle, you know that only 6 of them are going to get hit by that incoming AoE attack.

Train bombing groups are no fun at all, and they turn pvp into a cheesefest - a cheap tactic that outperforms all other playstyles simply because game mechanics say so.


The AoE caps need to be removed entirely. Let one AoE spell hit 50-100 players if they're within range. This will force players to spread out, it will encourage a more realistic battlefield, and it will wind up creating more spread out, small scale fights where Melee builds stand a chance.

How exactly will this help mêlée builds? All it will do is encourage increased use of AoE abilities, increase the use of "stick and dress" builds, and make mêlée even less effective. No AoE cap is going to force people to spread out, you'll just see them continuing to zerg and spamming AoEs.

The cap is fine. It isn't there to prevent a smaller group from fighting a larger group. At a 6:1 ratio, 4 people can affect a fully formed raid (assuming equal distribution, which will not happen), although realistically you wouldn't want to be outnumbered more than 4 or 3 to one. The AoE cap is there to prevent large zergs from spamming it and completely decimating anything in its path.

Queue the l2p responses in 3, 2, 1......

You really dont understand how this works, do you?

Limiting the number of targets an AoE can hit -encourages- zerging, it -encourages- people to clump together into little wrecking balls spamming abilities as they run around. The reason this happens is because you become nearly immune to AoE damage if you're in a large group of clustered players - enemy AoE's cant hit you because there are too many people in too small an area, the AoE will only hit a few players in the zerg group while the rest are left completely unscathed.

Now, remove the AoE cap, and let that AoE spell hit anything and everything in the area, and those 30-40 players that are all clustered together are suddenly taking a -very- large amount of damage. Staying clustered together makes it easier for them to be killed. Thus, not having a target limit or cap on AoE spells forces players to spread out if they dont want to be AoE'd to death. Spreading out = good, clumping together = bad.

If players were spread out more, we wouldnt have as much zerging, we wouldnt have as many wrecking ball AoE groups. AoE is the -counter- to the zerg, yet right now it's not able to fulfill it's role as that counter because it only hits a few players at a time.

briandivisionb16_ESO

God. The internet. *facepalm*
Come on guys. At least read the issues before posting dribble!
On a sidenote, could those of you who know wtf you're talking about help me on reddit? They're just as confused as some of the ***** on here.
http://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/2bul7o/the_horrible_aoe_cap/

firstdecan

Lynx7386 wrote: »

firstdecan wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

What really bugs me about the AoE caps is that their implementation has changed pvp from somewhat realistic siege warfare into completely unrealistic train-bombing zerg groups.

If your AoE is capped at 6 targets, this encourages large groups of players to stack on top of each other as a defense to it. If you have 30 people in a 5 meter circle, you know that only 6 of them are going to get hit by that incoming AoE attack.

Train bombing groups are no fun at all, and they turn pvp into a cheesefest - a cheap tactic that outperforms all other playstyles simply because game mechanics say so.


The AoE caps need to be removed entirely. Let one AoE spell hit 50-100 players if they're within range. This will force players to spread out, it will encourage a more realistic battlefield, and it will wind up creating more spread out, small scale fights where Melee builds stand a chance.

How exactly will this help mêlée builds? All it will do is encourage increased use of AoE abilities, increase the use of "stick and dress" builds, and make mêlée even less effective. No AoE cap is going to force people to spread out, you'll just see them continuing to zerg and spamming AoEs.

The cap is fine. It isn't there to prevent a smaller group from fighting a larger group. At a 6:1 ratio, 4 people can affect a fully formed raid (assuming equal distribution, which will not happen), although realistically you wouldn't want to be outnumbered more than 4 or 3 to one. The AoE cap is there to prevent large zergs from spamming it and completely decimating anything in its path.

Queue the l2p responses in 3, 2, 1......

You really dont understand how this works, do you?

{snip}

I understand that mechanic. You want the ability that vamps used to have where a single player could walk into a crowd of enemies, spam one or two abilities with impunity and call it 'skills' or 'strategy.' You have very verbosely explained one consequence of the AoE cap, and due to a myopic preconception completely failed to understand any other ramification of the mechanic. What one player or a small number of players can do, a large number of players can do with much greater effect. If you don't think stacking 20 unlimited AoEs is more effective than stacking 2 or 3 unlimited AoEs, you should start having someone else balance your checkbook.

If you really were interested in stopping character stacking, you would be asking for player collision, not unlimited AoE. Having unlimited AoE will just make zergs stronger. They don't have to point, they don't have to select a target, they will just run and spam the same way the vamp raids used to before they got nerved. And if it isn't vamps, it'll be whatever class \ skill combo has the AoE du jour.

I agree that 40 players should not be able to run through a doorway or tight area when a Templar ultimate is down or the floor is covered with flaming oil, but unlimited AoE as a solution to that will have other consequences. Player collision would prevent it, and force players to spread out more and be much more aware of their positioning. If you need to stop a large zerg, you'll have to coordinate with a couple of your guildies and spam your AoEs at the same time.

Kiljaz

I dislike AE caps, but if they go away, they MUST put limits on somethings such as the healing from critical surge, the healing added by multiple targets from draw essence, and the healing from devouring swarm.

If they don't, people using those abilities become immortal while they're using them + Immovable.

hamon

firstdecan wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

firstdecan wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

What really bugs me about the AoE caps is that their implementation has changed pvp from somewhat realistic siege warfare into completely unrealistic train-bombing zerg groups.

If your AoE is capped at 6 targets, this encourages large groups of players to stack on top of each other as a defense to it. If you have 30 people in a 5 meter circle, you know that only 6 of them are going to get hit by that incoming AoE attack.

Train bombing groups are no fun at all, and they turn pvp into a cheesefest - a cheap tactic that outperforms all other playstyles simply because game mechanics say so.


The AoE caps need to be removed entirely. Let one AoE spell hit 50-100 players if they're within range. This will force players to spread out, it will encourage a more realistic battlefield, and it will wind up creating more spread out, small scale fights where Melee builds stand a chance.

How exactly will this help mêlée builds? All it will do is encourage increased use of AoE abilities, increase the use of "stick and dress" builds, and make mêlée even less effective. No AoE cap is going to force people to spread out, you'll just see them continuing to zerg and spamming AoEs.

The cap is fine. It isn't there to prevent a smaller group from fighting a larger group. At a 6:1 ratio, 4 people can affect a fully formed raid (assuming equal distribution, which will not happen), although realistically you wouldn't want to be outnumbered more than 4 or 3 to one. The AoE cap is there to prevent large zergs from spamming it and completely decimating anything in its path.

Queue the l2p responses in 3, 2, 1......

You really dont understand how this works, do you?

{snip}

I understand that mechanic. You want the ability that vamps used to have where a single player could walk into a crowd of enemies, spam one or two abilities with impunity and call it 'skills' or 'strategy.' You have very verbosely explained one consequence of the AoE cap, and due to a myopic preconception completely failed to understand any other ramification of the mechanic. What one player or a small number of players can do, a large number of players can do with much greater effect. If you don't think stacking 20 unlimited AoEs is more effective than stacking 2 or 3 unlimited AoEs, you should start having someone else balance your checkbook.

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were you even in pvp when the vamp batswarm thing was the big issue? if you were you would realise it wasnt the cap per-se that was the issue there. it was that while in batswarm you cant be targetted. plus with ultimate cost reduction stacking it made batswarm pretty much spammable. the lack of cap just meant that you could kill more folk , but the problem was mainly that folk using it could spam it and couldnt be killed.

batswarm is still a nighmare cos you cant be targetted. yes the cap means its not as lethal , and ultimate cant be gained as fast. but the issue then wasnt the lack of a cap.

TheFalcon19

No, stacking up is not the only way, it's actually the worst thing you can do because wrecking ball vs wrecking ball is just too unreliable and random due to the aoe cap (I never said that I don't see the problem with the aoe cap). That's why most guilds started using an organized spread out tactic to force the stacked up group out of their element (no clear target they can run through spamming aoe).
I should've clarified that by smaller group, I meant that I've seen a group with around 16 people wipe a full wrecking ball group by using this spread out tactic.
I admit I shouldn't have taken this into consideration because in this case it doesn't matter if the aoes are capped or not.

I also admit that I didn't know about those ultimate caps per skill mechanic, but (again I should've clarified) I was talking about gaining ultimate points with critical hits because it's the main source of ultimate points in the game.
A build with decent spell critical and dot skills can charge ultimates very fast.

Now what I was concerned about is that I think that without the aoe cap spell crit builds will be able to easily generate enough ultimate from dot crits that they can have their ultimates up all the time.

I hope I explained it a little better this time.

zScars

AoE caps really need to gtfo

Daethz

Fact is, AoE, should not be capped.
It is an AREA of EFFECT, not a area with some effect. Change it or rename it a AOSE spell.