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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8098811/#Comment_8098811
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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8098811/#Comment_8098811
[old thread remastered] AoE Cap and Zergtrains. Thoughts to date?
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briandivisionb16_ESO✭✭✭✭Lots of discussion about this on twitch tonight but very little ZOS inputIf your group is bigger than 6 members gain 75% damage reduction.
Write this on the back of your box and see how many sales you get!
You won't get any new PvP players until this archaic AoE crap is fixed.
I for one won't resub until:
1.) You fix lag.
2.) You remove AOE caps we voted against.
3.) 12 months have passed (this is how long we've waited for you to 'get with it')[/b]1 -
MrGhosty✭✭✭✭✭TBH I saw just as many zergs in my early days of PvPing as I do now, it was bad enough that I gave up until I could level my characters high enough they could withstand some of the punishment.
If the problem isn't the aoe, but the stacking for multiplicative benefits and normal usage of the AoE (as stated by a previous poster as "barely able to hit 2-4 in normal circumstances.) If the AoE of impulse is 8m why not reduce the damage of Impulse by X for each friendly standing within that range. A group of four, evenly spaced could then effectively deal as much damage as a stacked zerg of 20 (relatively speaking). Such zergs would then become situational and still useful in the small role still allowed to them while encouraging alternate tactics. This keeps the cap in place which was abused, but the problem that many claim to be the reason they want caps removed is then fixed. Such a fix would also leave the PvE uses of the ability relatively untouched so PvE players aren't being punished because some PvPers abused a game mechanic."It is a time of strife and unrest. Armies of revenants and dark spirits manifest in every corner of Tamriel. Winters grow colder and crops fail. Mystics are plagued by nightmares and portents of doom."0 -
This isn't a solution.
It just makes impulse useless and stacking remains as potent as ever.
Impulse spam is just a symptom of the underlying issue. It's easy to use pbaoes when stacking but the true purpose is to be harder to hit.
The only true solution to this problem is to remove its cause: The target cap.1 -
briandivisionb16_ESO✭✭✭✭yepIf your group is bigger than 6 members gain 75% damage reduction.
Write this on the back of your box and see how many sales you get!
You won't get any new PvP players until this archaic AoE crap is fixed.
I for one won't resub until:
1.) You fix lag.
2.) You remove AOE caps we voted against.
3.) 12 months have passed (this is how long we've waited for you to 'get with it')[/b]1 -
Soloeus✭✭✭✭✭
✭This is just the design choice, and we can stick it. Is what it is.
If there were going to be any change whatsoever, the decision would have come out by now. There has been plenty of time for devs to decide.
I wish it weren't this way.
Within; Without.0 -
They are just very slow to reach decisions. And frankly, pvp is the third wheel and clearly not in any kind of priority list.
But they've shown they were ready to overhaul massive aspects of the game for PvE, so once it will be time for them to throw some resources at PvP, they'll do the correct decision there as well.1 -
briandivisionb16_ESO✭✭✭✭It was a shame. Enjoyed PvP before these mechanics were obvious everywhere.Edited by briandivisionb16_ESO on September 28, 2014 3:50PMIf your group is bigger than 6 members gain 75% damage reduction.
Write this on the back of your box and see how many sales you get!
You won't get any new PvP players until this archaic AoE crap is fixed.
I for one won't resub until:
1.) You fix lag.
2.) You remove AOE caps we voted against.
3.) 12 months have passed (this is how long we've waited for you to 'get with it')[/b]2 -
briandivisionb16_ESO✭✭✭✭It would be glorious if ZOS removed the AoE capsIf your group is bigger than 6 members gain 75% damage reduction.
Write this on the back of your box and see how many sales you get!
You won't get any new PvP players until this archaic AoE crap is fixed.
I for one won't resub until:
1.) You fix lag.
2.) You remove AOE caps we voted against.
3.) 12 months have passed (this is how long we've waited for you to 'get with it')[/b]5 -
Nijjion✭✭✭✭Would be ironic that the server lag is the calculation of which 6 targets are getting hit.
Camelot unchained is right around the corner... well a years wait and hopefully get a proper RvR game without bugs such as aoes only hitting certain people in range.NijjijjioN - DK - AR27NijjioN - NB -Daggerfall CovenantThe Nice Guys GuildEverQuest -> Dark Age of Camelot -> Ragnarok Online -> Cabal Online -> Guild Wars 1 -> Warhammer Online -> Vindictus -> SWTOR -> Tera -> Guild Wars 2 -> Elder Scrolls Online ->
Eagerly awaiting Camelot Unchained.2 -
Vahrokh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Would be ironic that the server lag is the calculation of which 6 targets are getting hit.
Camelot unchained is right around the corner... well a years wait and hopefully get a proper RvR game without bugs such as aoes only hitting certain people in range.
No, the AoE cap limits the amount the various objects in game have to message each other (if they chose this implementation) to calculate damage.
In some games they had to put AoE caps else the server would grind to an halt due to the endless "ping pong" it'd needed to do in order to calculate in real time all the endless overlapping damages applied to everybody in the area.
Of course this issue is not new. Nor are the solutions:
1) Players pull. Implemented in example in Warhammer with Magus and Engineer classes, they could literally pull several guys off their AoE group, usually making them landing in a melee grinding machine group that would butcher them.
2) Temporary anti-AoE specialized melee abilities, with drawbacks.
Those would be melee only abilities that would be generally worthless to use but would boost certain classes melee survivability when under AoE so they could hit and kill the AoE spammers.
3) Anti-zerg war machines. Weakish against most stuff but devastating vs zergs. ESO has an "embryo" of that.Vaerah, Dark Elf Magicka Sorceress
Trials addict, soloer extraordinaire!
Here are my Elder Scrolls Online videos
Here is the Sorcerer Helper addon I have updated to work on current ESO1 -
Actually, in eso, it causes lag.
Due to how it impacts player behavor, people are always standing in stacks which means more potential targets, more offfensive aoe casted and more heals necessary.
With smart healing, this means each spell has to look at all potential targets, lock their state, sort them by health remaining then pick the top 6.
That sorting operation is what causes the most calculation and if they want accurate results, the lock causes latency.
Same for damage aoes. If players weren't stacked as much, aoes wouldn't be the only viable skills. Rather than hitting 6 guaranteed targets per attack, each player would hit only one. Effectively dividing by 6 the amount of character updates necessary.
It's fairly straightforward.
Over 90% of optimisation lies in design and algorithms, not syntactic sugar.
If we want better performances, we need to remove game mechanics causing laggy player behavior.2 -
tordr86b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Just because noobs can't think of any tactics other than zerging... don't mind them. Battlefields should be spread out. They've always been. IRL you could stab a friend more likely than a foe, in practically any situation other than a tight formation (roman turtles, greek phalanxes, etc).
.
It is done by guilds, coordinated zerg trains (I'm looking at you AD) and spam elemental ring / pulsar, with batswarm and temps spamming breath of life. Basically, if you meet a coordinated group like this you're done for. I met a group like this on the wall tonight and the only tactic against this, for pugs anyways, is to flee.
Edited by tordr86b16_ESO on September 28, 2014 11:03PM2 -
briandivisionb16_ESO✭✭✭✭tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »Just because noobs can't think of any tactics other than zerging... don't mind them. Battlefields should be spread out. They've always been. IRL you could stab a friend more likely than a foe, in practically any situation other than a tight formation (roman turtles, greek phalanxes, etc).
.
It is done by guilds, coordinated zerg trains (I'm looking at you AD) and spam elemental ring / pulsar, with batswarm and temps spamming breath of life. Basically, if you meet a coordinated group like this you're done for. I met a group like this on the wall tonight and the only tactic against this, for pugs anyways, is to flee.
Zerg trains are unfun. Cancelled sub until ZOS listen.Edited by briandivisionb16_ESO on September 29, 2014 1:10PMIf your group is bigger than 6 members gain 75% damage reduction.
Write this on the back of your box and see how many sales you get!
You won't get any new PvP players until this archaic AoE crap is fixed.
I for one won't resub until:
1.) You fix lag.
2.) You remove AOE caps we voted against.
3.) 12 months have passed (this is how long we've waited for you to 'get with it')[/b]3 -
kitsinni✭✭✭✭✭Recent changes make me think zerg trains is what ZOS wants. Magicka still by far the strongest, nerf Resto staff that makes single target Magicka builds shine, everyone switches to Destro and Impulse zergs.0
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briandivisionb16_ESO✭✭✭✭Recent changes make me think zerg trains is what ZOS wants. Magicka still by far the strongest, nerf Resto staff that makes single target Magicka builds shine, everyone switches to Destro and Impulse zergs.
Yep they've made oil harder to use, thus encouraging zerg trains even more.
It's just ignoring the playerbase. 50% of my guild have quit and there will be more to come.
Still no response from ZOS.
@ZOS_BrianWheeler - still alive?If your group is bigger than 6 members gain 75% damage reduction.
Write this on the back of your box and see how many sales you get!
You won't get any new PvP players until this archaic AoE crap is fixed.
I for one won't resub until:
1.) You fix lag.
2.) You remove AOE caps we voted against.
3.) 12 months have passed (this is how long we've waited for you to 'get with it')[/b]1 -
Rune_Relic✭✭✭✭✭
✭briandivisionb16_ESO wrote: »Recent changes make me think zerg trains is what ZOS wants. Magicka still by far the strongest, nerf Resto staff that makes single target Magicka builds shine, everyone switches to Destro and Impulse zergs.
Yep they've made oil harder to use, thus encouraging zerg trains even more.
It's just ignoring the playerbase. 50% of my guild have quit and there will be more to come.
Still no response from ZOS.
@ZOS_BrianWheeler - still alive?
No this dept....see combat team
Anything that can be exploited will be exploited0 -
Koensol✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Exactly. These sorts of skills would be a blessing and would fit nicely with the AW skill line.Would be ironic that the server lag is the calculation of which 6 targets are getting hit.
Camelot unchained is right around the corner... well a years wait and hopefully get a proper RvR game without bugs such as aoes only hitting certain people in range.
No, the AoE cap limits the amount the various objects in game have to message each other (if they chose this implementation) to calculate damage.
In some games they had to put AoE caps else the server would grind to an halt due to the endless "ping pong" it'd needed to do in order to calculate in real time all the endless overlapping damages applied to everybody in the area.
Of course this issue is not new. Nor are the solutions:
1) Players pull. Implemented in example in Warhammer with Magus and Engineer classes, they could literally pull several guys off their AoE group, usually making them landing in a melee grinding machine group that would butcher them.
2) Temporary anti-AoE specialized melee abilities, with drawbacks.
Those would be melee only abilities that would be generally worthless to use but would boost certain classes melee survivability when under AoE so they could hit and kill the AoE spammers.
3) Anti-zerg war machines. Weakish against most stuff but devastating vs zergs. ESO has an "embryo" of that.
0 -
briandivisionb16_ESO✭✭✭✭Would be ironic that the server lag is the calculation of which 6 targets are getting hit.
Camelot unchained is right around the corner... well a years wait and hopefully get a proper RvR game without bugs such as aoes only hitting certain people in range.
No, the AoE cap limits the amount the various objects in game have to message each other (if they chose this implementation) to calculate damage.
In some games they had to put AoE caps else the server would grind to an halt due to the endless "ping pong" it'd needed to do in order to calculate in real time all the endless overlapping damages applied to everybody in the area.
Of course this issue is not new. Nor are the solutions:
1) Players pull. Implemented in example in Warhammer with Magus and Engineer classes, they could literally pull several guys off their AoE group, usually making them landing in a melee grinding machine group that would butcher them.
2) Temporary anti-AoE specialized melee abilities, with drawbacks.
Those would be melee only abilities that would be generally worthless to use but would boost certain classes melee survivability when under AoE so they could hit and kill the AoE spammers.
3) Anti-zerg war machines. Weakish against most stuff but devastating vs zergs. ESO has an "embryo" of that.
Some good ideasIf your group is bigger than 6 members gain 75% damage reduction.
Write this on the back of your box and see how many sales you get!
You won't get any new PvP players until this archaic AoE crap is fixed.
I for one won't resub until:
1.) You fix lag.
2.) You remove AOE caps we voted against.
3.) 12 months have passed (this is how long we've waited for you to 'get with it')[/b]1 -
briandivisionb16_ESO✭✭✭✭No mention of AoE caps in latest updates which is disappointing.If your group is bigger than 6 members gain 75% damage reduction.
Write this on the back of your box and see how many sales you get!
You won't get any new PvP players until this archaic AoE crap is fixed.
I for one won't resub until:
1.) You fix lag.
2.) You remove AOE caps we voted against.
3.) 12 months have passed (this is how long we've waited for you to 'get with it')[/b]1 -
briandivisionb16_ESO✭✭✭✭Can we get some input from ZOS?If your group is bigger than 6 members gain 75% damage reduction.
Write this on the back of your box and see how many sales you get!
You won't get any new PvP players until this archaic AoE crap is fixed.
I for one won't resub until:
1.) You fix lag.
2.) You remove AOE caps we voted against.
3.) 12 months have passed (this is how long we've waited for you to 'get with it')[/b]1 -
Would be ironic that the server lag is the calculation of which 6 targets are getting hit.
Camelot unchained is right around the corner... well a years wait and hopefully get a proper RvR game without bugs such as aoes only hitting certain people in range.
No, the AoE cap limits the amount the various objects in game have to message each other (if they chose this implementation) to calculate damage.
In some games they had to put AoE caps else the server would grind to an halt due to the endless "ping pong" it'd needed to do in order to calculate in real time all the endless overlapping damages applied to everybody in the area.
Of course this issue is not new. Nor are the solutions:
1) Players pull. Implemented in example in Warhammer with Magus and Engineer classes, they could literally pull several guys off their AoE group, usually making them landing in a melee grinding machine group that would butcher them.
2) Temporary anti-AoE specialized melee abilities, with drawbacks.
Those would be melee only abilities that would be generally worthless to use but would boost certain classes melee survivability when under AoE so they could hit and kill the AoE spammers.
3) Anti-zerg war machines. Weakish against most stuff but devastating vs zergs. ESO has an "embryo" of that.
A decade+ old game (DAoC) did uncapped AoEs. There was no noticeable lag whatsoever due to this. Watch some old videos on youtube for reference.
Also, nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo to AoE pulls. Pulls are ANTI-skill. Positioning is a skill. Being able to negate that with the push of a button is catering to the lowest common denominator.4 -
briandivisionb16_ESO✭✭✭✭Read first post for the positive comments coming aroundIf your group is bigger than 6 members gain 75% damage reduction.
Write this on the back of your box and see how many sales you get!
You won't get any new PvP players until this archaic AoE crap is fixed.
I for one won't resub until:
1.) You fix lag.
2.) You remove AOE caps we voted against.
3.) 12 months have passed (this is how long we've waited for you to 'get with it')[/b]1 -
Mendoze✭✭✭I don't get it why ZOS just doesn't disable ultimate gain while your ultimate is active. Then remove AOE caps ( except from healing ) and we are good to go.2 -
Shaun98ca2✭✭✭✭✭I really cant wait to see what removing caps from this will do to it PVP side.
For a game that promotes stacking from every inch of it, I really don't see things getting better. There will just be a list of new complaints.
Before we ever started zergballing we were playing this game "the right way" and what happened certain abilities that just happened to be uncapped were destroying people, by the flock.
Next it will be how the heck do the expect us to heal each other, take over resources and even keeps. Even WITH multiple openings to breach its not hard for 6 people at each opening to aoe bomb anybody that tries to enter.
Not to mention Steal gankers waiting for you to drop your guard and capture the keep...dead.0 -
briandivisionb16_ESO✭✭✭✭A year later. New thoughts. New ideas.
A friend told me ZOS was considering removing the AoE cap? I felt this was a good and relevant thread in favour of that change.
Can anyone confirm?If your group is bigger than 6 members gain 75% damage reduction.
Write this on the back of your box and see how many sales you get!
You won't get any new PvP players until this archaic AoE crap is fixed.
I for one won't resub until:
1.) You fix lag.
2.) You remove AOE caps we voted against.
3.) 12 months have passed (this is how long we've waited for you to 'get with it')[/b]0