[old thread remastered] AoE Cap and Zergtrains. Thoughts to date?

poodlemasterb16_ESO

Oh lord. A zerg is punished by AoE because it is a zerg. A huge group of people is a fair target for AoE weapons.

Spread out and that will go away. Too simple for you?

Obscure

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

@Nox_Aeterna
If the only reason a zerg isn't being shredded by 6 guys is because of an arbitrary target cap to AoE, there are two failures in the game design instead of one.

Can you honestly look at this game right now and say that isnt the case?

The reality is , the AoE caps are a small fix for a huge problem that zen still cant fix after months since launch.

Indeed. It absolutely is the case. But AoE capping isn't a solution, it's part of the problem with this studio. They throw these temporary fixes at the game and move on to the next temporary fix resulting in a low quality product. There's a huge need to reign in a myriad of imbalanced mechanics, yet instead they're more likely to compound the system with more imbalance (ex: Spell Crafting) than permanently fix anything in any relatively nearby time frame (likely not in 2014).

I get they're way behind on their console release schedule and had projected initially to have big DLC style content releases every 4-6 weeks, but so far the "big releases" are just content that got delayed from launch, and with the bugs they implement in every single patch they're working against themselves actually fixing existing long standing problems by creating new ones to fix every month. Even when they finally add the Crime System, Dark Brotherhood, Theives Guild, and Imperial City, (I'd even throw player housing in there) the long standing TES fanbase will just feel like ZOS has completed the game rather than expanded on it.

Yeah, I get they need to prioritize things, but it's not really an option to pick and choose what to fix and what not to fix, playing a triage of sorts with features in a sub based MMO. Different players play for differing reasons with dependence more on one thing than another. If the thing the player finds to be important is left to the way side (ex: PvP mechanics, build equality, and skill balance) they will often themselves feel left to the way side by the developers and return the gesture by leaving the game to the way side. It's not healthy. Subscribers have friends they play with that are also subscribers, you lose one of those friends you're likely to lose all of them.

Tricky business these MMOs. But temporary fix after temporary fix turns your game into exactly that: a temporary fix for players until they can get something else.

poodlemasterb16_ESO

Obscure wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

@Nox_Aeterna
If the only reason a zerg isn't being shredded by 6 guys is because of an arbitrary target cap to AoE, there are two failures in the game design instead of one.

Can you honestly look at this game right now and say that isnt the case?

The reality is , the AoE caps are a small fix for a huge problem that zen still cant fix after months since launch.

Indeed. It absolutely is the case. But AoE capping isn't a solution, it's part of the problem with this studio. They throw these temporary fixes at the game and move on to the next temporary fix resulting in a low quality product. There's a huge need to reign in a myriad of imbalanced mechanics, yet instead they're more likely to compound the system with more imbalance (ex: Spell Crafting) than permanently fix anything in any relatively nearby time frame (likely not in 2014).

I get they're way behind on their console release schedule and had projected initially to have big DLC style content releases every 4-6 weeks, but so far the "big releases" are just content that got delayed from launch, and with the bugs they implement in every single patch they're working against themselves actually fixing existing long standing problems by creating new ones to fix every month. Even when they finally add the Crime System, Dark Brotherhood, Theives Guild, and Imperial City, (I'd even throw player housing in there) the long standing TES fanbase will just feel like ZOS has completed the game rather than expanded on it.

Yeah, I get they need to prioritize things, but it's not really an option to pick and choose what to fix and what not to fix, playing a triage of sorts with features in a sub based MMO. Different players play for differing reasons with dependence more on one thing than another. If the thing the player finds to be important is left to the way side (ex: PvP mechanics, build equality, and skill balance) they will often themselves feel left to the way side by the developers and return the gesture by leaving the game to the way side. It's not healthy. Subscribers have friends they play with that are also subscribers, you lose one of those friends you're likely to lose all of them.

Tricky business these MMOs. But temporary fix after temporary fix turns your game into exactly that: a temporary fix for players until they can get something else.

Why hijack this thread for another pointless whine?

Obscure

poodlemasterb16_ESO wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

@Nox_Aeterna
If the only reason a zerg isn't being shredded by 6 guys is because of an arbitrary target cap to AoE, there are two failures in the game design instead of one.

Can you honestly look at this game right now and say that isnt the case?

The reality is , the AoE caps are a small fix for a huge problem that zen still cant fix after months since launch.

Indeed. It absolutely is the case. But AoE capping isn't a solution, it's part of the problem with this studio. They throw these temporary fixes at the game and move on to the next temporary fix resulting in a low quality product. There's a huge need to reign in a myriad of imbalanced mechanics, yet instead they're more likely to compound the system with more imbalance (ex: Spell Crafting) than permanently fix anything in any relatively nearby time frame (likely not in 2014).

I get they're way behind on their console release schedule and had projected initially to have big DLC style content releases every 4-6 weeks, but so far the "big releases" are just content that got delayed from launch, and with the bugs they implement in every single patch they're working against themselves actually fixing existing long standing problems by creating new ones to fix every month. Even when they finally add the Crime System, Dark Brotherhood, Theives Guild, and Imperial City, (I'd even throw player housing in there) the long standing TES fanbase will just feel like ZOS has completed the game rather than expanded on it.

Yeah, I get they need to prioritize things, but it's not really an option to pick and choose what to fix and what not to fix, playing a triage of sorts with features in a sub based MMO. Different players play for differing reasons with dependence more on one thing than another. If the thing the player finds to be important is left to the way side (ex: PvP mechanics, build equality, and skill balance) they will often themselves feel left to the way side by the developers and return the gesture by leaving the game to the way side. It's not healthy. Subscribers have friends they play with that are also subscribers, you lose one of those friends you're likely to lose all of them.

Tricky business these MMOs. But temporary fix after temporary fix turns your game into exactly that: a temporary fix for players until they can get something else.

Why hijack this thread for another pointless whine?

True fans are critical. AoE capping is lazy game design. I want better for ESO. Fanboying around the forums is pointless hijacking of what should be a productive resource to a development team. I will persistently reject the delusion that ESO is on any kind of good footing at present, and I will continue to advocate for better design. ESO can be better, ZOS can do better, and I will persist to call for both. I expect no less from my customers with my work. If you find that to be a problem I frankly don't give five fahrenheit of a flaming ***.

poodlemasterb16_ESO

Obscure wrote: »

poodlemasterb16_ESO wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

@Nox_Aeterna
If the only reason a zerg isn't being shredded by 6 guys is because of an arbitrary target cap to AoE, there are two failures in the game design instead of one.

Can you honestly look at this game right now and say that isnt the case?

The reality is , the AoE caps are a small fix for a huge problem that zen still cant fix after months since launch.

Indeed. It absolutely is the case. But AoE capping isn't a solution, it's part of the problem with this studio. They throw these temporary fixes at the game and move on to the next temporary fix resulting in a low quality product. There's a huge need to reign in a myriad of imbalanced mechanics, yet instead they're more likely to compound the system with more imbalance (ex: Spell Crafting) than permanently fix anything in any relatively nearby time frame (likely not in 2014).

I get they're way behind on their console release schedule and had projected initially to have big DLC style content releases every 4-6 weeks, but so far the "big releases" are just content that got delayed from launch, and with the bugs they implement in every single patch they're working against themselves actually fixing existing long standing problems by creating new ones to fix every month. Even when they finally add the Crime System, Dark Brotherhood, Theives Guild, and Imperial City, (I'd even throw player housing in there) the long standing TES fanbase will just feel like ZOS has completed the game rather than expanded on it.

Yeah, I get they need to prioritize things, but it's not really an option to pick and choose what to fix and what not to fix, playing a triage of sorts with features in a sub based MMO. Different players play for differing reasons with dependence more on one thing than another. If the thing the player finds to be important is left to the way side (ex: PvP mechanics, build equality, and skill balance) they will often themselves feel left to the way side by the developers and return the gesture by leaving the game to the way side. It's not healthy. Subscribers have friends they play with that are also subscribers, you lose one of those friends you're likely to lose all of them.

Tricky business these MMOs. But temporary fix after temporary fix turns your game into exactly that: a temporary fix for players until they can get something else.

Why hijack this thread for another pointless whine?

True fans are critical. AoE capping is lazy game design. I want better for ESO. Fanboying around the forums is pointless hijacking of what should be a productive resource to a development team. I will persistently reject the delusion that ESO is on any kind of good footing at present, and I will continue to advocate for better design. ESO can be better, ZOS can do better, and I will persist to call for both. I expect no less from my customers with my work. If you find that to be a problem I frankly don't give five fahrenheit of a flaming ***.

What a maroon.

kieso

spamming aoe isn't much of a tactic whether there's a cap or not. They really need to nerf impulse in general so it isn't such an overall be all end all spell.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

@Nox_Aeterna‌ , you miss the point completely.

Everyone agrees that a larger group should, all things equal, win.
There are organic advantages in being a large force, and removing the caps will not change it at all.
It will actually help large un coordinated forces win more easily against those who previously stacked, while at the same time make them more vulnerable to actual coordination.
But trust me, aside from the first day after the patch, people will never stack again and no large group will ever get one shotted by a smaller group.

But all this is besides the point because the discussion is not about zerging, outnumbering, coordination or aoes spamming.
It's about the stacking tactic that can be used by any size of group of cap + 1.
It's an issue you encountere wether you are 10v10, 40 v40 or 10v40.

This mechanic enforces stacking in order to gain an advantage. An advantage that scales with numbers: 12 people get hit 50% of the time, 24 get hit 25%, and so on.
In other words, it is a mechanical advantage you cannot ignore.

The method is so advantageous it throws the entire game out of whack.
For instance, healing and buffing have no drawbacks, aoes are the only usable abilities, oil is op, large opposing groups end up fighting in the same physical space and the servers can barely hold on.
It also introduces large amounts of random luck in a competitive game and breaks immersion.
Other tactics are sub-optimal and can't be considered alternatives.

In decision theory, this is called a dominant strategy, it limits the breadth of viable choices to only one possible move.
You may have the "physical" ability to employ other techniques, and it may have some effect, but if you have access to stacking and not doing it, you're gimping yourself.
This is not only an issue of balance, but also about having an healthy game that keeps people interested on the long term.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

kieso wrote: »

spamming aoe isn't much of a tactic whether there's a cap or not. They really need to nerf impulse in general so it isn't such an overall be all end all spell.

Impulse isn't an issue.
It's actually a pretty weak spell all things considered, and other abilities in the game are already stronger than it with the target cap.
It is only safe to use impulse in its 8m radius because of the aoe target cap and how it enables stacking as a defensive measure.

Remove the target camp, and it won't find a place on most builds.
It has only an aoe of 8m radius, without the safety of stacking it will be pretty obvious to see a group trying to do it and wipe them out.

mgoss79b14_ESO

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

@Nox_Aeterna‌ , you miss the point completely.

Everyone agrees that a larger group should, all things equal, win.
There are organic advantages in being a large force, and removing the caps will not change it at all.
It will actually help large un coordinated forces win more easily against those who previously stacked, while at the same time make them more vulnerable to actual coordination.
But trust me, aside from the first day after the patch, people will never stack again and no large group will ever get one shotted by a smaller group.

But all this is besides the point because the discussion is not about zerging, outnumbering, coordination or aoes spamming.
It's about the stacking tactic that can be used by any size of group of cap + 1.
It's an issue you encountere wether you are 10v10, 40 v40 or 10v40.

This mechanic enforces stacking in order to gain an advantage. An advantage that scales with numbers: 12 people get hit 50% of the time, 24 get hit 25%, and so on.
In other words, it is a mechanical advantage you cannot ignore.

The method is so advantageous it throws the entire game out of whack.
For instance, healing and buffing have no drawbacks, aoes are the only usable abilities, oil is op, large opposing groups end up fighting in the same physical space and the servers can barely hold on.
It also introduces large amounts of random luck in a competitive game and breaks immersion.
Other tactics are sub-optimal and can't be considered alternatives.

In decision theory, this is called a dominant strategy, it limits the breadth of viable choices to only one possible move.
You may have the "physical" ability to employ other techniques, and it may have some effect, but if you have access to stacking and not doing it, you're gimping yourself.
This is not only an issue of balance, but also about having an healthy game that keeps people interested on the long term.

Winner of the thread. This is exactly it. I wish people would calm down and read this. If you cannot grasp this concept, then you should go back to the kid's table.

briandivisionb16_ESO

mgoss79b14_ESO wrote: »

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

@Nox_Aeterna‌ , you miss the point completely.

Everyone agrees that a larger group should, all things equal, win.
There are organic advantages in being a large force, and removing the caps will not change it at all.
It will actually help large un coordinated forces win more easily against those who previously stacked, while at the same time make them more vulnerable to actual coordination.
But trust me, aside from the first day after the patch, people will never stack again and no large group will ever get one shotted by a smaller group.

But all this is besides the point because the discussion is not about zerging, outnumbering, coordination or aoes spamming.
It's about the stacking tactic that can be used by any size of group of cap + 1.
It's an issue you encountere wether you are 10v10, 40 v40 or 10v40.

This mechanic enforces stacking in order to gain an advantage. An advantage that scales with numbers: 12 people get hit 50% of the time, 24 get hit 25%, and so on.
In other words, it is a mechanical advantage you cannot ignore.

The method is so advantageous it throws the entire game out of whack.
For instance, healing and buffing have no drawbacks, aoes are the only usable abilities, oil is op, large opposing groups end up fighting in the same physical space and the servers can barely hold on.
It also introduces large amounts of random luck in a competitive game and breaks immersion.
Other tactics are sub-optimal and can't be considered alternatives.

In decision theory, this is called a dominant strategy, it limits the breadth of viable choices to only one possible move.
You may have the "physical" ability to employ other techniques, and it may have some effect, but if you have access to stacking and not doing it, you're gimping yourself.
This is not only an issue of balance, but also about having an healthy game that keeps people interested on the long term.

Winner of the thread. This is exactly it. I wish people would calm down and read this. If you cannot grasp this concept, then you should go back to the kid's table.

True. QFT. Added to first page. Please, comment here, ZOS

Kronosphere

This Article: "Lets buff aoe, so aoe zergz dont aoe as much, by killing them with our aoe"

seriously did u *** write the end of mass effect 3 as well?

briandivisionb16_ESO

(removed by self)

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

Kronosphere wrote: »

This Article: "Lets buff aoe, so aoe zergz dont aoe as much, by killing them with our aoe"

seriously did u *** write the end of mass effect 3 as well?

It may be counter intuitive to you, but it's actually simple cause and effect:

Stacking is a thing because of target caps
Aoes are the only viable choices because of stacking (6 guaranteed targets)
Remove aoe cap and stacking is suicide
Stacking is suicide so people spread out
People are spread out so they don't offer guaranteed targets to aoe (bellow 4)
Aoes are weaker so single target are the most damage per resource wise.

I'll ask you, in a kinder way than the previous poster, to try and read more posts to learn about the finer details.
If you'd go past your knee jerk reaction, you'd understand.

kitsinni

So AOE Caps cause zerg balls that spam AOE, but lack of AOE caps will cause slightly spread out zergs that spam AOE they just will kill more people doing it. If you take away the AOE cap would there be any reason to use anything other than AOE other than 1v1?

Say they take away AOE caps and you run in to a group of 20 people and hit elemental ring how long does it take to get full ultimate 5 seconds? Pop bats heal to full start again.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

kitsinni wrote: »

So AOE Caps cause zerg balls that spam AOE, but lack of AOE caps will cause slightly spread out zergs that spam AOE they just will kill more people doing it. If you take away the AOE cap would there be any reason to use anything other than AOE other than 1v1?

Say they take away AOE caps and you run in to a group of 20 people and hit elemental ring how long does it take to get full ultimate 5 seconds? Pop bats heal to full start again.

You're under the wrong assumption that aoes have enough radius to hit 20 people that are spread out.
You're wrong.

If people don't stack, most aoes will barely hit 2-4 targets.
If people don't stack, pbaoes are easy to notice coming and avoid.
For ranged aoes, we have red rings on the ground to roll out of.

They'll be useful in certain situations, or as an opportunity move, but in general, aoes will have less of a use than single target abilities.

kitsinni

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

So AOE Caps cause zerg balls that spam AOE, but lack of AOE caps will cause slightly spread out zergs that spam AOE they just will kill more people doing it. If you take away the AOE cap would there be any reason to use anything other than AOE other than 1v1?

Say they take away AOE caps and you run in to a group of 20 people and hit elemental ring how long does it take to get full ultimate 5 seconds? Pop bats heal to full start again.

You're under the wrong assumption that aoes have enough radius to hit 20 people that are spread out.
You're wrong.

If people don't stack, most aoes will barely hit 2-4 targets.
If people don't stack, pbaoes are easy to notice coming and avoid.
For ranged aoes, we have red rings on the ground to roll out of.

They'll be useful in certain situations, or as an opportunity move, but in general, aoes will have less of a use than single target abilities.

What is the radius on Impulse compared to the size of a breech or the flag at a resource? What about the average distance people are from the scroll runner on a scroll run?

Obscure

kitsinni wrote: »

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

So AOE Caps cause zerg balls that spam AOE, but lack of AOE caps will cause slightly spread out zergs that spam AOE they just will kill more people doing it. If you take away the AOE cap would there be any reason to use anything other than AOE other than 1v1?

Say they take away AOE caps and you run in to a group of 20 people and hit elemental ring how long does it take to get full ultimate 5 seconds? Pop bats heal to full start again.

You're under the wrong assumption that aoes have enough radius to hit 20 people that are spread out.
You're wrong.

If people don't stack, most aoes will barely hit 2-4 targets.
If people don't stack, pbaoes are easy to notice coming and avoid.
For ranged aoes, we have red rings on the ground to roll out of.

They'll be useful in certain situations, or as an opportunity move, but in general, aoes will have less of a use than single target abilities.

What is the radius on Impulse compared to the size of a breech or the flag at a resource? What about the average distance people are from the scroll runner on a scroll run?

Depends on the breach. Some are larger than others, but in every case if I put an AoE on the breach it should effect everything going through it. This creates a need for tanks to rush the breach and soak the AoE's, healers to keep them vertical, and DPS to back the enemy AoE droppers off to gain access to a keep.

Presently there's no need for anything but Heals and DPS, and they can all rush in together since the AoE's will only effect a few of them at random but the heals dropped will effect all of them.

Scroll Running will suddenly becomes very dangerous at choke points for attackers or defenders. Big clump on either side gets hit hard if they don't spread out.

AoE cap removal creates a need to act intelligently and would draw a line between the good and the bad.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

kitsinni wrote: »

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

So AOE Caps cause zerg balls that spam AOE, but lack of AOE caps will cause slightly spread out zergs that spam AOE they just will kill more people doing it. If you take away the AOE cap would there be any reason to use anything other than AOE other than 1v1?

Say they take away AOE caps and you run in to a group of 20 people and hit elemental ring how long does it take to get full ultimate 5 seconds? Pop bats heal to full start again.

You're under the wrong assumption that aoes have enough radius to hit 20 people that are spread out.
You're wrong.

If people don't stack, most aoes will barely hit 2-4 targets.
If people don't stack, pbaoes are easy to notice coming and avoid.
For ranged aoes, we have red rings on the ground to roll out of.

They'll be useful in certain situations, or as an opportunity move, but in general, aoes will have less of a use than single target abilities.

What is the radius on Impulse compared to the size of a breech or the flag at a resource? What about the average distance people are from the scroll runner on a scroll run?

Someone else already answered, but as an addition:
Impulse is 8m radius, batswarm is 10. But they are both pbaoes which require you to take risks and be in close range.

Ranged aoes are at most 6m, and most often, you need to morph them to reach that. For instance, volcanic rune is only at 3m radius, volley 5m, even ultimates don't have much more radius.

Compared to a breach ,that's maybe 1/3 or 1/2 of it.
But breaches and chokepoints are not common gameplay.
Most of the time, you are fighting in the open, trying to go against/defending a forward camp setup on a resource.
Scroll runs are mostly openfield battles as well.

In those cases, ranged aoes don't hit many targets, usually less than 6, and more around 3-4

briandivisionb16_ESO

Obscure wrote: »

AoE cap removal creates a need to act intelligently and would draw a line between the good and the bad.

Absolutely!

briandivisionb16_ESO

Completely agree

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

You know what. Something occured to me as to why this thread was moved in the general discusion section.

Aoe caps were mostly discussed in the alliance war forums, which are kind of niche.

Since it got moved, there has been more people understanding the issue. This is actually raising awareness and testing the waters on a larger subset of players.

I'm of the opinion that correctness should always trump popularity, but since the general public doesn't seem to object, it makes fixing target caps safer for Zos.

Your move, @ZOS_BrianWheeler‌ @ZOS_GinaBruno‌

Makkir

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

So, when (not if) AoE becomes a true "PvP doctrine" in a MMO, they usually have to cap AoE targets or face worse consequences.

Or, you know, simply balance individual abilities.

I'm curious...why not just remove AOE from skills lines that everyone has access to (like Destructive Staff) and instead move them to class specific skill lines?

Makkir

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

So being smart = spamming impulse and standard? Lol..

A small party of common trolls could sneak around and pop out of thin air and press a few buttons.

yes called strategy now it will be a large party of common trolls doing massive zergs. The beauty of Cyrodil was Zergs were discouraged . strategy was involved and good leaders could decimate and disrupt a overwhelming force that was beating the daylights out of you.

Careful planning good strategy would trump numbers much like real life.
Have you ever heard the term "i would rather have army of sheep led by a lion then an army of lions led by a sheep" quote Genghis Kahn .

Good leaders also strategically plan and place Impulse spam groups and when/how to counter them.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

Makkir wrote: »

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

So, when (not if) AoE becomes a true "PvP doctrine" in a MMO, they usually have to cap AoE targets or face worse consequences.

Or, you know, simply balance individual abilities.

I'm curious...why not just remove AOE from skills lines that everyone has access to (like Destructive Staff) and instead move them to class specific skill lines?

Because it is not necessary.
It is also against the phylosophy of the game. All classes should be able to perform the same roles.
It also may lead to harder to balance classes and the need to redo many skill lines with the posdible community backlash it may cause.

The main reason, though, is that aoe are not an issue. They mainly become situational without a cap.
People will take into account that they are a threat and will avoid the situations where they are strong.
This leads to a more balanced usage of single/multiple/aoe abilities.

briandivisionb16_ESO

Maybe at least one way to counter AoE caps would be good..?
E.G. Siege having no target cap

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

It wouldnt work to prevent stacking.

Siege comes with too many limitations and wouldn't be strong enough to prevent stacking, even if it didn't have caps.
Being one of the only thing in the game with a cooldown AND a warm up is pretty punishing.

The best solution, is just to remove the caps. it would help for so many aspects.

ThoradinBloodfire

AoE damage should be a set amount that gets spread out over whatever is in its range. If its done on a large group of people does less damage.

Kinda like weight and surface area. More area less pressure, less area more pressure. Same mechanics.

briandivisionb16_ESO

AoE should be AoE. Not 'Ao(hit 6 targets)'
This is a final bump for something I feel everyone is passionate about. Forgive.

ExiledKhallisi

How to 1v15 a Zergball:

Templar AOE god ftw

Mayrael

AoE should be AoE as others said. Right now there is no cons of running in zerg ball, u get only pros. If ure wohle zerg could be killed by a few range aoes, it would force them to spread as it were in real battle situations where armies were using spreaded formations to avoid heavy damage from siege weapons or bows. Its as simple as that. Large group still would have advantage but fighiting against well coordinated small group wouldnt be so easy as it is now. The only defenders of aoe cap i can imagine are those who are running in zerg balls, cause it works for them now and if it would be changed they would have to find some other way to be effective on battlefield. Collision is also good but imagine situation like this. U have managed to crush the walls of enemys keep but large group of players stands there and blocks ur way. Right now they have unlimited heals while u have limited aoes, how are u going to take them down? And yes i also would like to have an option to block someones way but not by a random zerg, they should be hard as rock tanks supported by heals hidden behind them and dds on walls that are forcing attackers to think before they come closer to the gap. Sorry for my grammar.