YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

This add-on is pure cheese, 100%.

But the underlying issue that has already pointed out is simply being able to even observe the HP values of players in PvP environments at all. That should be removed entirely.

Enemy players should be black boxes that you have to use your actual PvP skill and knowledge to solve. Not by cheesing or crutching on UI.

The worst take I have ever read.
[snip] The base game UI is a crutch?

[edited for baiting]

This Addons shows nothing that you cant see without. For me it is like amor skull or grey skull. Just shows you information you will get when you check you opponent or your own toon.

i would agree if this addon will work for e.g. Chal wall and shows me exactly squishy players and mark them. But it only works if you look at a player. Other point it that is just shows the health if the player wears pariah or trials by fire it is useless.

sshogrin wrote: »

Sweeping the PvP players and having the addon show who is squishy and who is tanky isn't the same as looking at health bars.
Housing addons are way different than combat addons, and addons like Essential Housing Tools are being slowly implemented into the game (look at the housing tours, that came from EHT)

You're right, it's actually less efficient than looking at their HP, because the tags it gives is based on the person's max HP, which can be extremely misleading, since there are several other factors including class/build and resistances in general that will hugely affect how difficult the target will be to put down.

For any decent PvP player, making use of this add-on to decide who to focus for them would actually make them perform worse.

And EVEN with the add-on you still need to sweep between targets, it only shows the squishy tag for the SINGULAR person you're targetting, just like the HP numbers, you need to aim at them to see it.

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

No, its easier for EVERYONE who uses the addon, else the addon would have no reason to exist.

And that is the proof in the pudding. I dont care if the same health info is in game. This addon specifically calls out (gives hints) on what targets to attack and which to avoid.

It allows for griefing and harassment. PERIOD!

You just proved my point, you don't care about HP, hence why the add-on is useful for you.

And like I said before, the add-on functions exclusively based on their HP pool, which can be misleading as people with high HP aren't necessarily tanky, common PvP awareness is just more efficient than letting an add-on decide for you.

I'll tell you again from a PvPer standpoint, we don't need this add-on at all to do any of the things you're describing, I know it, because me and every other PvPer I know can quickly call out who are squishy in a fight without any UI clutter telling us to.

And yes, we'll focus them whenever they get in a fight, because we'll always target whoever is squishier first.

ESPECIALLY in Battlegrounds, if people easily kill you once, they won't just forget about you, they'll go for you over and over till the game is done, and they don't need an add-on for that at all, they never did before this add-on was invented, and they don't need on consoles either.

This add-on has zero impact on PvP, especially since it's barely even used.

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

I was makiing a figure of speech, and my point still stands. It does not matter if the health bar exists or not, that addon gives GREATER visual clues to the user vs someone who does not.
And in fact, it goes BEYOND just health, it allows nonverbal communication for everyone on the team who uses that addon to "go for the squishy target" that is spelled out, literally spelled out right next to the player.
Its not even REMOTELY the same as the in game health bad, ELSE it would be redundant and useless. But the addon exists, vets and new players alike find it useful in the PVP setting to gain an advantage over their opponent.

"Go for the squishy target" is as vague and imprecise as this add-on is, you can literally hold tab and put a giant skull above your target for your whole group to see, more direct and efficient than that.

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Can be, but not always is. In fact I would bet that the vast majority of players have health that is inline with their resistance/impen.

Most of them do, yes, but if you exclusively use this add-on to orientate yourself you'll blindly ignore several other factors that are just as important as health pools, it will straight up hurt your general focus awareness.

It's just like training wheels, you won't learn it if you don't let it go.

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

And I am telling you from a PVPer perspective that any addon that presents information in an easier to read format is gaining an unfair advantage over those who do not use it.
Again, as I have said like 3 or 5 times now, if the addon did not work, meaning did not represent a GAIN to the user, it would not be used, not be downloaded, heck would have not been created. But it has.

And I already gave you examples of how this add-on can be useful, none of them are what you are implying, it's much more of an accessibility tool than an "unfair" advantage, this add-on won't give you any information you won't already have on your screen, it is just impossible for the way it functions.

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

That is a 100% false statement. Since this debate has started, I know at the minimum 11 players who have used it and found it makes their life A LOT EASIER in BG's. Knowing who to kill, and who to run from all from an easy to read, in your face, cant miss it, cant mess up UI element that tells them what they are up against.

If they rely on that add-on for basic PvP awareness, I'll just assume they don't PvP much at all, I can guarantee to you, the people who are complaining about this add-on would make much more use of it than the people you claim to be exploiting with it.

I can give you a PvE example, several of my friends who started playing and were having trouble parsing found these miraculous things called "Heavy-Attack Oakensoul" builds, as soon as they got it, they noticed they had much higher DPS than they ever had, and they were convinced that was the highest they could hit.

But what they didn't know is that although it made them stronger and was a visible improvement, it also served as a learning ceiling, the standard high DPS was much above their average 85k DPS, and none of the people parsing 130k+ were using heavy attack builds.

All they needed was to go back building on double bars, learn how to weave/rotate and then they surpassed their Heavy Attack builds by far.

What I mean is, can this add-on be useful? Yes, it can, it makes the information on your screen simple and bigger, does it give you any advantage over people not using it? Not at all, and if it's the only thing deciding your focus, you could pretty much call it a disadvantage.

You can believe it is unfair, either way, it was nice to discuss this topic with you.

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

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Morvan wrote: »

It is a lot easier for you

No, its easier for EVERYONE who uses the addon, else the addon would have no reason to exist.

And that is the proof in the pudding. I dont care if the same health info is in game. This addon specifically calls out (gives hints) on what targets to attack and which to avoid.

It allows for griefing and harassment. PERIOD!

I promise you this addon isn't as valuable as you think it is. If it was, I would tell you. Many years ago, I installed it to check it out and read the source code to see what it does. But I uninstalled it after I realized all it's doing is reading player max health which is already available to everyone. An enemy player's max health isn't a good indication of whether they are "squishy" or not. It's way more involved than that.

Morvan wrote: »

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Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

I was makiing a figure of speech, and my point still stands. It does not matter if the health bar exists or not, that addon gives GREATER visual clues to the user vs someone who does not.
And in fact, it goes BEYOND just health, it allows nonverbal communication for everyone on the team who uses that addon to "go for the squishy target" that is spelled out, literally spelled out right next to the player.
Its not even REMOTELY the same as the in game health bad, ELSE it would be redundant and useless. But the addon exists, vets and new players alike find it useful in the PVP setting to gain an advantage over their opponent.

"Go for the squishy target" is as vague and imprecise as this add-on is, you can literally hold tab and put a giant skull above your target for your whole group to see, more direct and efficient than that.

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Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Can be, but not always is. In fact I would bet that the vast majority of players have health that is inline with their resistance/impen.

Most of them do, yes, but if you exclusively use this add-on to orientate yourself you'll blindly ignore several other factors that are just as important as health pools, it will straight up hurt your general focus awareness.

It's just like training wheels, you won't learn it if you don't let it go.

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Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

And I am telling you from a PVPer perspective that any addon that presents information in an easier to read format is gaining an unfair advantage over those who do not use it.
Again, as I have said like 3 or 5 times now, if the addon did not work, meaning did not represent a GAIN to the user, it would not be used, not be downloaded, heck would have not been created. But it has.

And I already gave you examples of how this add-on can be useful, none of them are what you are implying, it's much more of an accessibility tool than an "unfair" advantage, this add-on won't give you any information you won't already have on your screen, it is just impossible for the way it functions.

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Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

That is a 100% false statement. Since this debate has started, I know at the minimum 11 players who have used it and found it makes their life A LOT EASIER in BG's. Knowing who to kill, and who to run from all from an easy to read, in your face, cant miss it, cant mess up UI element that tells them what they are up against.

If they rely on that add-on for basic PvP awareness, I'll just assume they don't PvP much at all, I can guarantee to you, the people who are complaining about this add-on would make much more use of it than the people you claim to be exploiting with it.

I can give you a PvE example, several of my friends who started playing and were having trouble parsing found these miraculous things called "Heavy-Attack Oakensoul" builds, as soon as they got it, they noticed they had much higher DPS than they ever had, and they were convinced that was the highest they could hit.

But what they didn't know is that although it made them stronger and was a visible improvement, it also served as a learning ceiling, the standard high DPS was much above their average 85k DPS, and none of the people parsing 130k+ were using heavy attack builds.

All they needed was to go back building on double bars, learn how to weave/rotate and then they surpassed their Heavy Attack builds by far.

What I mean is, can this add-on be useful? Yes, it can, it makes the information on your screen simple and bigger, does it give you any advantage over people not using it? Not at all, and if it's the only thing deciding your focus, you could pretty much call it a disadvantage.

You can believe it is unfair, either way, it was nice to discuss this topic with you.

As I already stated. If this addon did not give a NET BENEFIT (meaning advantage OVER) to the players using it, it would not need to exist.

As I already stated. I know of 11 differnt people who have decided to install this addon and in every case agree that it presents an unfair advantage over those who do not have it. Because AGAIN, how much more easily the information is presented.

In a game where you can have 37k armor and 43k health, with ful impen on infused gear, be blocking and die inside of 2 seconds from a single person (I haver had this specific scenario happen to me, on multiple occasions), every split second counts.

This addon allows for much much easier read of the playfield than the stock ui.
Player A with no addon will not read the information as fast as player B who does have the addon.

The addon literally spells out the easiest targets, the base game does not do that even if its just based on health.

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

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SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Morvan wrote: »

It is a lot easier for you

No, its easier for EVERYONE who uses the addon, else the addon would have no reason to exist.

And that is the proof in the pudding. I dont care if the same health info is in game. This addon specifically calls out (gives hints) on what targets to attack and which to avoid.

It allows for griefing and harassment. PERIOD!

I promise you this addon isn't as valuable as you think it is. If it was, I would tell you. Many years ago, I installed it to check it out and read the source code to see what it does. But I uninstalled it after I realized all it's doing is reading player max health which is already available to everyone. An enemy player's max health isn't a good indication of whether they are "squishy" or not. It's way more involved than that.

I appreciate your input, but I am telling you, now, live at this moment there are people using the addon that DO find it useful, I explained why in my post above which contrary to the contined arguing in this thread, is not contestable.

Side story...

When the Esoteric Environment Greaves released, I was experimenting with different builds. It's difficult to sustain the stamina cost of the mythic so I was 64 stamina with lots of sustain. I had maybe 25k max health but I could actually not go under 50% stamina. Anyways, the NBs that love to gank players with less than 30k max health just couldn't kill me. Maybe they were using Squishy Finder and maybe not. But I thought it was funny that a 25k max health player could be so tanky. You can add lots of other mitigation as well like Nibenay, Blue CP, etc.

It's a niche build and not realistic for day-to-day use. But still fun to troll the Squishy Finder gankers.

@Pixiepumpkin If you want to blame that 1 addon showing what you obviously can see with the vanilla UI too, you need to blame all other addons that add custom player frames (where you can change the size of the font of the health etc.) too.
And there exist many meanwhile.

Imo addons should be disabled in PvP at all, so all got the same base and cannot change anything. Either ZOs adds helper addons to the vanilla game UI (they did for PvE content already so why not for all on PVP too) or all play with the same.
But as this is not going to happen since 2014, which is sad imo, you cannot ban the addons as you would need to ban ALL addons (outside PvP) doing the same (read you health related information) too.

And that would be unfair for the visibly impaired players again which benefit from addons that show them UI related things bigger/more obviously.

The solution would be to either ignore it, or use the addon yourself (if you feel you need to). Basically it is no advantage and you should just ignore it. I get your point but ZOs cannot and will not ban such addons as they do not do anything that is an advantage.

You accuse an addon with absolutely minimal functionality of being unfair, not to mention cheating.

* Anyone can use this addon in PVP, so there is no unfair advantage
* As already mentioned several times above, this addon does nothing other than make the display more visible. No automatic functions such as TAB targeting
* As I already mentioned above, this addon cannot be banned at the moment (why should it?). The only way would be to ban addons in PVP completely. That would reduce the PVP population even further.

I use this addon myself in PVP because it simply allows me to pick out (possibly) easy targets much faster without having to take my eyes off the central action.
I would like to add to this point: I use a 32" monitor, and here the problem with the central gathering of information is more present than with a smaller monitor, because the eyes have to "wander around" a lot more without the add-on.

I think most of the people complaining about this addon are precisely the glass cannons and squishies that are constantly in focus because they are the easiest to take out of the fight. However, this also happens without this addon. The addon only helps (me) to make the entire selection process much more efficient.

P.S.: "Tanky" players will definitely appreciate this addon because they will certainly be focused or ganked less often :-)

Imo this is no different than scanning someone's hp. As long as it does not give directional clues, we all do it. I like that the addon gives them a false sense of engagement only to be disappointed when the squishy stomps them in return

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

This add-on is pure cheese, 100%.

But the underlying issue that has already pointed out is simply being able to even observe the HP values of players in PvP environments at all. That should be removed entirely.

Enemy players should be black boxes that you have to use your actual PvP skill and knowledge to solve. Not by cheesing or crutching on UI.

YES!

I play both PvP and PvE.

One weird idiosyncrasy that I feel is more prevalent in the PvP community vs. the PvE community is a certain belief, by some, that to be "right" and "good" and "fair" PvP has to have a completely level playing field. Some kind of purist mentality.

You see this in PvE, too, sometimes, when it comes to objections regarding carries, but in my experience it's way more pervasive in PvP.

I think it's completely flawed logic.

First, objections would theoretically be based on that fact that without a certain mod or other feature, the playing field is even. But, it never is. It's so far from even I'm really surprised how common the "this is unfair" complaints pop up in PvP. Between the never-ending meta changes and balance adjustments across classes, abilities, sets, etc., various performance issues like lag which can be client side because players are distributed all over the world, disparity between quality of hardware client-side, and more... this just isn't a scenario like some kind of Olympic or other record logging environment. Teams don't have standard uniforms, all "balls" don't have a standard weight... you get the idea.

Obviously, anything that gives someone an extreme advantage such that the game is basically played for you, or something, is cause for concern.

But a UI add-on that may or may give people an advantage or be a crutch, requiring some judgment on whether it's making a difference for the individual player? It just seems like such a small thing to worry about, when people are playing on different hardware, with different connections, with different builds. I don't think this falls into the "plays the game for you" category. To me whether you learn about and use a mod is no different than tweaking your build or any other UI adjustment, since we don't have cross platform play such that some people could use a mod that is not an option for their opponent. But that's just my two cents.

So... tank yourself and you won't be afraid of the add-on...

As an experienced pvper I’ll say this much. From a glance I can usually tell who the squishy players are in a group with pretty high accuracy. Usually I don’t even need to directly look at their hp. It’s usually a combination of their class, what they are doing, and honestly how rp they look. By the time I hit them with the first attack I know 100% who to focus.

I dont see any issues with the addon. In fact, I don’t even think it’s the best way to determine who to focus.