Ball groups destroying everything fun about pvp

OBJnoob · May 2023

Marcus684 wrote: »

Do you think there should be a limit to the odds that a ball group at the pinnacle of group performance should be able to survive against? What we currently have is the top performing groups being literally unkillable. I'm not being hyperbolic. I've seen probably 2 or 3 groups that have had almost the entire opposing faction trying to get them out of a keep and repeatedly failing for over an hour. In your view, is this ok?

Good question!

I don't think it's okay for them to troll and farm to the point of griefing but I do think it's okay that they can't die, yes.

That's my direct answer to your direct question.

My less direct answer is that they can be killed though. Just not by some ragtag Zerg, two small-scale groups, and a handful of solos. What they can be killed by is a group, like them, but built more offensively instead of tanky.

Ball groups build tanky for the same reason that solo and small-scalers build tanky. Because most people find not dying to other good players to be very rewarding and they know that there are a ton of NOT good players who they'll still be able to farm so who cares about damage? Coordination is where their damage comes from, just like it's where their healing comes from. 12 people throw caltrops (or whatever,) and everybody just melts. And the idea of withstanding as many adversaries as possible is very alluring (just like for solo and small-scale,) so they build tankier and tankier until the point that they can't kill anymore. Then they take one step back, and thats the sweet spot.

If there were more ball-groups around then we would start to see more diversity in the types. Unfortunately everyone with enough skill and game knowledge to do so would rather run smaller scale. But if 12 people, buffed by every PvE set imaginable, would drop 1 Negate and 11 Dragonleaps in less than 2 seconds on a traditional ballgroup relying on HoT stacking do you know what would happen? A massive chunk of that other group would die.

And that's all there is to it.

Have you ever killed more than 5 people by yourself? Has your group of 5 ever killed 10? 15? 20? So, proportionately, how many should a ballgroup be able to kill? 20? 40? 60? I don't see the problem. At 60 enemies being farmed this, as far as power imbalance goes, equates to 1 Xer killing 5 people. The most I've ever seen in a video is 1 solo player killing 65 people. There were a lot of enemies on his screen but let's be realistic and assume some of the people respawned came back and got killed again. So, conservatively, maybe he was fighting 30 people. Screw it let's say only 20. So a ballgroup with 12 players like this should be able to kill 240 people.

And the common feeling here seems to be that "but they aren't that good!" But I wouldn't be so sure. The proof is in the pudding.

TheBonesXXX · May 2023

They dont want to fix the problem, it's not where the money is.

finehair · May 2023

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Ball groups will always exist - it has nothing to do with game balance and everything to do with coordination. True ball groups have all 12 players in complimentary builds - every single player has a specific function that they perform, and each player covers the other's weaknesses.

There's a couple things that could make Ball Groups feel less oppressive (like cutting back on Echoing Vigor/Radiating/Polar stacking), but at the end of the day these groups will always roll through zergs like nothing.

I wouldn't classify having no counters as being all that balanced. Coordination can give small groups an edge over zergs, sure, but it shouldn't be easy for a 12 man to steamroll a group of 30 multiple times. Hots are a large problem when there isn't enough damage in game to counter them, and other infinite sources of mitigation. On top of that the ability to stack even remotely enough damage has been severely restricted by the introduction of PB and VD.

I'm not saying group coordination doesn't have a place in Cyro, or it shouldn't be strong, but the resources they have with little to no counters is laughable at this point.

Ball Groups have counters though; coordination and knowing their tactics. Knowing how to recognize when a ball group is about to tear through the zerg is already enough to survive against them.

Don't get me wrong, I think heal stacking should be nerfed, but at the end of the day, you aren't going to beat a coordinated group unless you coordinate a group yourselves. That's by design.

Most people don't have issues of surviving the ball group attacks, if it's not their first time in cyro. As soon as you see them turn around a corner, start switching to dw bars etc. it is time to step aside of their attack line.
Surviving doesn't mean winning. Even though most 1v500ers think that is, I can wear the tankiest and the most healing takenest gear I can imagine with endless recovery and roll around keep myself alive against 10 people alone yes. That doesn't mean I win.

Turtle_Bot · May 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

So what's the complaint exactly?

Players find the heal stack ball meta unfun. They want a different meta, not to nerf groups, who will adapt regardless.

It seems, to me, more like people want to nerf groups than to nerf healing. I just don't see the incredible amount of healing solo players can bestow upon themselves being brought up as often. Yes, people wish Coag healed for less-- IF we happen to be talking about how OP DKs are. And yes, people wish Polar Wind healed for less-- IF we happen to be talking about the health stacking meta.

But when we talk about ball-groups nobody wants vigor to heal for less, do they? No, they just want less instances of it. And we discuss how many would be fair and we say "oh, well, maybe 3 or 4 so PvErs won't complain." But what doesn't get said out loud is how coincidentally beneficial this would be for small-scalers.

12 perfectly coordinated people seem unkillable for the same reason some solo players seem unkillable. So yes, by all means, nerf healing. But do it by actually nerfing healing, not by nerfing teamwork.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

This exactly. This whole "cyrodiil is for groups only" narrative has completely ruined Cyrodiil in recent times.

OBJnoob wrote: »

People are saying Cyrodiil is meant for groups because group play

Gonna add to this, ball groups are not the only valid group play. Casual zergs, solo surfing, joining pugs, smallscaling... all valid group playstyles that deserve a place in Cyrodiil, and once had before ZOS completely lost sight of group power creep.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

but at the moment the design of sets and heal stacking mechanics in the game has made it so that ball groups essentially have god-mode active all the time as long as they wear the designated sets and click their AoE sticky HoTs once every 10 seconds

Yea it's gross, not that there isn't a learning curve or skill going into their comp and strat, but once you're there it wraps around to anti-skill gameplay like face-tanking ults and casually standing in red siege circles. One of the worst offenders is Snow Treaders, allowing them to trivially ignore things like Caltrops and Oil Catapults. Even some of the hardcore ball groupers I've chatted with would have no problem with Snow Treaders being outright deleted from PvP.

Yep, just had one ball group, I bombed them under a negate and with siegefire (oils, coldfire balista, etc) raining down on them, nope, healthbars didn't even budge because they already had all their HoTs ticking before the negate was cast on them, so even though it was a direct bomb (on the entire group) all under the negate and siegefire and no abilities could be cast by them, they just casually walked out of it like nothing had happened and continued on farming the pugs that were around. That is not even remotely close to being balanced and needs fixing.

No group should be able to survive under that kind of pressure combined with counter play combined with that amount of damage, all being applied at the same time. That kind of thing is supposed to counter ball groups, but nope, not this one, they just walked out and the health bars (all at 40k) didn't even budge because of all of the stacked HoTs that were passively healing for far more than any achievable damage could be inflicted even though they couldn't cast any heals at that time.

I think it's interesting that the 12man surviving is a problem but if for example there was no siege and was no negate and 1 person bombed 12 nobody here would have a problem with it.

1 person killing 12 all at once is a lot more unbalanced than 1 person not being able to kill 12.

12 people healing eachother is simply teamwork-- there's nothing unbalanced or exploitative about it. With the things that some solo individuals can do, why should a ballgroup be capable of any less?

The problem, honestly, is the game is too old now and even the vets who refuse to leave are tired of it as it was originally meant to be... And so they are abandoning things like objectives and campaign points, heading out solo only to kill and wishing for the game to change into some sandbox where they can run around having fun without being bothered by things that they don't appreciate. Like big groups. Or tanks. Or siege.

Except I never said that it was me alone as a single player that should be killing that ball group, it was a bomb on top of siege-fire AND negate with others around to help out and that group v group SHOULD BE ABLE TO KILL ball groups, especially when USING ABILITIES THAT ARE SUPPOSED TO BE COUNTERS!
I'm not talking about some non-existent hypothetical situation like you constantly are with your constant attempts to derail the fact that ball groups are completely OP currently and need adjusting, I am talking about actual in game play and scenarios that are supposed to counter ball groups but the ball groups are completely immune to those counters thanks to how absurd HoT stacking has gotten over the years combined with carry sets like snow treaders.

But hey, lets completely ignore inconvenient truths because it doesn't agree with out narrative that ball groups need to be left alone to be the only god-mode available in the game.....

Sorry if you found my hypothetical to be derailing... I thought, and still think, that it's worth mentioning that bombers are capable of killing large groups. Even by themselves. And I took some liberties to change your scenario to one of my choosing but I wasn't trying to detract from what you said... Simply piggyback off of it and say something of my own.

My point being that there are mechanics for solo players to destroy large groups and it happens all the time. So it just seems to me like what we're complaining about isn't groups or cross healing it's just that SOME groups are annoyingly good and people begrudge the fact that nothing can be done about them.

And I just don't see a huge difference between 12 people all synched up fighting the world -v- one person wearing rallying maras and Markyn fighting 12. The only difference between "that 12" and "this 12" is that "this 12" knows what they're doing. Well "this 12" who knows what they're doing aren't going to die to a talented 5-man, and I think it's pretty lame to ask for game mechanics to change in a way that limits options and abilities for one playstyle but not others.

Let's just be honest and say that "we the small scalers" like to fight outnumbered because it's challenging and "we" think anybody who doesn't have the same idea of fun, challenge, and style as us is lame and doesn't matter. "We" see big groups as being pugs, whether they are or not, and coming across 12 people we can't touch is enraging. But when "we" stand toe to toe with 12 that's just because "we" are so awesome and if they don't like it they need to L2P.

12 people coordinating buff sets and healing eachother is the pinnacle of what this game is supposed to be. It's the pinnacle of PvE and also the pinnacle of PvP. It's an MMO for goodness sake. If you want to run around solo or with just a couple talented friends then you just have to accept that some people won't fall into your level of competition-- whether they be lower or, occasionally, higher.

I'm not talking about an organized group dying to a small scale set-up or a single solo bomber though and I never said that ball groups should always die to those things either. I also said that ball groups SHOULD have an advantage over unorganized groups and smaller groups. What I am against is what is happening currently where ball groups are essentially running around with god-mode activated on them and nobody can do anything about it.

You are also forgetting that to do anything even remotely equivalent to what ball groups can do as a solo or small scale, takes an insane amount of skill that barely anyone in the game has (I only know of a few that are capable and even they can't do it consistently, nor to the extent that ball groups get away with).

Solos have not been able to have anything even remotely close to what ball groups currently have for years now and solos and small scales are constantly seeing nerfs to their playstyles each patch, while ball groups have been able to completely evade the nerf hammer and all the while gained innumerable sets that carry and enable their playstyle way beyond what was intended let alone balanced.

I said in my post that I am talking about the all of the COUNTERS TO BALL GROUPS all combining in one moment and that ball groups are able to simply ignore all of it and it's thanks to HoT stacking.

If we take your hypotheticals, what these ball groups are able to do would be the equivalent of a solo player being able to face tank an entire faction stack then turn around and wipe them after completely ignoring everything that is supposed to counter them all hitting them at once. Or the equivalent of a solo bomber who gets detected, revealed and CCd being able to simply face tank all of that and still run in and wipe the entire 12 person group that was fighting them.

You talk about ratios, the problem is that the ratios don't calculate 1 to 1 like you try to claim. Solos can get away with much better ratios than groups can because of how they fight outnumbered. If you also look at solos and small scales they are picking and choosing their fights, they don't face tank entire faction stacks, they pick off enemies 1 by 1 or in small groups of 2-5 (or in the case of bombers they hit stacked groups that are completely unaware/distracted and have buffs down) so those 1vX scenarios are more like 1v1 + 1v1 + 1v1 + etc up to however many enemies it takes for the enemies to start coordinating their abilities to kill the solo (or force them to run away) while ball groups are simply just face-tanking any number of enemies for hours on end and are able to constantly wipe entire zergs of enemies each ulti dump.

I am hearing more and more from solo players (some of the most skilled in the game) saying that playing in ball groups is currently the ONLY way to have fun in this game now. How can that even be considered balanced when the best in the game consider a single playstyle to be the only way to play/have fun?

If you want to know the limit of a ball groups capabilities, imo, it should be around 40 (a ratio of 3-1) or 50 (4-1) with the lower number being if that unorganized group is decently skilled players using sieges and counters such as negates (i.e. a guild group that's not a ball that has combined with a zerg).

How is the current ball group situation balanced? why do you consider that to be balanced because solos pick off weaker players 1 by 1? Are you simply trying to be contrary just for the sake of sowing discourse? do you simply not know or understand how unbalanced ball groups have become over the past 6 months?

Turtle_Bot · May 2023

As someone else stated, ball groups are able to hold IMPORTANT objectives hostage to farm the enemy pug groups, solos cannot do that, solos cannot have that kind of impact on the map let alone the campaign unless the enemy zone leaders let them do so, while ball groups are able to have that kind of impact on the map and campaign and there is nothing that anyone can do about it because the ball groups are running around with god-mode thanks to HoT stacking.

ShadowProc · May 2023

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

As someone else stated, ball groups are able to hold IMPORTANT objectives hostage to farm the enemy pug groups, solos cannot do that, solos cannot have that kind of impact on the map let alone the campaign unless the enemy zone leaders let them do so, while ball groups are able to have that kind of impact on the map and campaign and there is nothing that anyone can do about it because the ball groups are running around with god-mode thanks to HoT stacking.

To add on to God mode: Snow Treaders, VD, Prox Det, Plague Break, Dark Conv, etc.

For the life of me I don't see how that could be fun. I use to play in a ball group at launch but you had to actually do stuff.

How is it fun when there are so many sets/mechanics that dumb it down so much? I really don't get it. And some of these groups are doing it multiple nights a week for years now. Laughable.

Dem_kitkats1 · May 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

Have you ever killed more than 5 people by yourself? Has your group of 5 ever killed 10? 15? 20? So, proportionately, how many should a ballgroup be able to kill? 20? 40? 60? I don't see the problem. At 60 enemies being farmed this, as far as power imbalance goes, equates to 1 Xer killing 5 people. The most I've ever seen in a video is 1 solo player killing 65 people. There were a lot of enemies on his screen but let's be realistic and assume some of the people respawned came back and got killed again. So, conservatively, maybe he was fighting 30 people. Screw it let's say only 20. So a ballgroup with 12 players like this should be able to kill 240 people.

Small-scale, solo playstyles are different in that players need to be much more active in juggling healing, buff uptimes and damage. With less people more choices need to be made in order to have an adequate healing/damage ratio in order to be successful. Coordination is more important as you have less people and sets to rely on. They die when they mistakes, and numbers can overwhelm them because of that.

Let's be real in that raid gear bears a lot of the weight for ballgroup playstyles, and are not adjusted for the PvP environment. Hence, countering them is nearly impossible, and outright imbalanced. Solo bombers killing 65 people are able to do so because of controversial sets. Coordinated groups could kill 3 times their numbers, but it shouldn't be unadjusted sets and mechanics that are the reason for them doing so.

OBJnoob · May 2023

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

Small-scale, solo playstyles are different in that players need to be much more active in juggling healing, buff uptimes and damage. With less people more choices need to be made in order to have an adequate healing/damage ratio in order to be successful. Coordination is more important as you have less people and sets to rely on. They die when they mistakes, and numbers can overwhelm them because of that.

Let's be real in that raid gear bears a lot of the weight for ballgroup playstyles, and are not adjusted for the PvP environment. Hence, countering them is nearly impossible, and outright imbalanced. Solo bombers killing 65 people are able to do so because of controversial sets. Coordinated groups could kill 3 times their numbers, but it shouldn't be unadjusted sets and mechanics that are the reason for them doing so.

I just don't agree at all. Why is pushing these buttons harder than pushing those buttons? A solo person gives themselves major brutality and major resolve. Those are probably the only two buffs they actually need to break rotation to keep uptime on. Everything else is gained through gear, potions, passives, or attached to a skill we'd use anyway. Like if I'm a DK are you saying I'm having to use skill to maintain minor Brutality? Or is it just a given that I'm going to Fossilize someone fairly often... Far more often, in fact, than is needed. Is it skill to go backbar and critically heal yourself, or does it basically just happen anyway? Am I going out of my way to use RaT for perfect uptime on minor force? Or am I using it when I need to be fast for a few seconds and simply realizing this can double as an offensive window? Am I managing my major berserk from sea serpent or am I just power healing myself as needed and blessed with 50+% uptime by complete accident?

People have funny ways of deciding what is skillful and what isn't. Is farming the right gear skillful? Setting up your bars correctly? Pressing buttons?

I think it all deserves to be considered skillful. I mean... Either all of it or none of it, right? Half the necessary ballgroup skills took place before they stepped foot in Cyrodiil. just because you don't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen. And just because their health bars aren't rapidly swinging from almost empty to full and back again doesn't mean they aren't pushing buttons.

Saying a solo person has more things to manage is simply untrue. You have what you can pack into a build and no more. The ballgroup has the same but x12. It may be true that 11 members of the group don't need to maintain major brutality because there's a designated person doing it for them... But they have to maintain their vigor and radiating Regen instead. They rotate warhorns and barriers. Keep uptime on Spell Power Cure, Drakes Rush, and Saxleel amoung other things. Need to move and act as a unit in a timely fashion. If anything there is MUCH more coordination and buff management not less. Which, by doing it properly, is how they make such exponentially tremendous use of their numbers and achieve this imbalance as you would call it.

But it's really no different than me wearing shacklebreaker hundings and Malacath getting stomped by someone wearing rallying sea serpent and maras-- complaining that this is OP or that is OP, or this takes too little damage or deals too much to be so tanky. One person... Me in this scenario... Is playing ESO Classic getting rightfully owned by someone else that bought the DLC did the trial and got the good stuff. Is it unbalanced because I stand no hope of winning? Or do I deserve to die to a better player? Or is he perhaps not better but at the very least more dedicated and in tune?

These trial sets that you say are unbalanced for PvP... But they can be worn by anyone. So while I, as a small scaler, wouldn't be able to make use of them and so I min/max stats density and buffs for myself instead of my team... Someone else took it a step further. I've never seen a topic created asking for a nerf to Drakes Rush. Or SPC. Or Saxleel. Or Warhorn. I have seen them for plaguebreak, DC, Maras, Rallying. I've never seen a thread (besides these,) calling for nerfs to Echoing Vigor. But I have seen people wanting Resolving Vigor nerfed.

The truth is that "meta" is for soloing, and most every selfish skill is significantly more powerful than it's unselfish counterpart. The ballgroup meta is considered niche and garbage by everyone else... Meaning they wouldn't use it on their character. But look what it can do when used correctly?

So again I say: I'm not saying healing in general isn't OP. I'm not saying they don't need to continue balancing the game. I'm not saying it isn't miserable getting helplessly farmed. I'm just saying that as long as there are solo people going out there and killing 10 enemies then a ballgroup is perfectly balanced and within their rights to kill 120. Because if you assemble a group that is ONLY worth the sum of its parts then you're doing it wrong. Don't cry foul because someone is MMO-ing better than you, has more friends, or did more PvE.

xylena_lazarow · May 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

a ballgroup is perfectly balanced and within their rights to kill 120

They generally don't win the objective, nor do they actually wipe the whole zerg. They stall the fight and hold the objective hostage by running in circles so they can kill the same handful of disorganized casuals over and over. The solo equivalent would be running around an enemy resource tower for 20 mintues and your only kills are this one same 20k hp guy.

Marcus684 · May 2023

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

a ballgroup is perfectly balanced and within their rights to kill 120

They generally don't win the objective, nor do they actually wipe the whole zerg. They stall the fight and hold the objective hostage by running in circles so they can kill the same handful of disorganized casuals over and over. The solo equivalent would be running around an enemy resource tower for 20 mintues and your only kills are this one same 20k hp guy.

This is probably why they eventualy jump out of the keep. Killing the same 20 players over and over again results in basically no AP gain, and AP is all these farmers care about.

Zyva · May 2023

I love playing in ball groups. Mostly because I love playing with the same several people each night like in a pve raid team, but also because I love min/maxing group composition and working as a team.

While most ball groups look the same from the outside, there are very different playstyles for them. Some have the goal of farming keeps, which is the kind most complained about. But despite what you would think, the AP gains from this are not very high. Once you kill the initial few waves of players, the ap gain become almost negligible ( for those who do not know, you only get a good ap gain kill the first time you kill a player, not the 3/4/5th etc.). These groups also often need to be made up of at least half healers if not 3/4th, with only a couppe damage dealers who absolutely have to coordiate their bursts or else cant kill a wet noodle. You make way more ap running successful pvdoor.

Which brings me to the pvdoor ball groups. I've been in a group that could set down max siege and be into a keep before it even flags on rdk. They coordinate who runs what siege, where to put it (with charts!), who reps what door after, who stacks on what flag. It's almost an art form. And then they are gone. These can be fun to farm ap but get boring after awhile. Everyone runs super high health but otherwise it's just about getting the siege out fast and leaving before people arrive.

Then there is the groups made to fight other groups. This used to be very popular, but sadly the days of groupvgroup pvp has almost ended. This is solely because of the stage of cyrodil servers. Two ball groups would plan a place to meet and try to kill each other, usually near one of the three towns where they might fight over flags, or an outpost where the goal is for one or the other side to unflag. It used to be two groups could fight with zero issues. But now people crash, glitch, make the fight unplayable. So a lot of people quit. Not even sure there are the numbers anymore to do it.

The only thing I've ever seen fix lag was when they turned off healing outside of a group!

LarsS · May 2023

ShadowProc wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

As someone else stated, ball groups are able to hold IMPORTANT objectives hostage to farm the enemy pug groups, solos cannot do that, solos cannot have that kind of impact on the map let alone the campaign unless the enemy zone leaders let them do so, while ball groups are able to have that kind of impact on the map and campaign and there is nothing that anyone can do about it because the ball groups are running around with god-mode thanks to HoT stacking.

To add on to God mode: Snow Treaders, VD, Prox Det, Plague Break, Dark Conv, etc.

For the life of me I don't see how that could be fun. I use to play in a ball group at launch but you had to actually do stuff.

How is it fun when there are so many sets/mechanics that dumb it down so much? I really don't get it. And some of these groups are doing it multiple nights a week for years now. Laughable.

As I have tried to say already, all the sets have made it far to easy both for balls and smallscalers. It seems that most people discussing in this thread belongs to these categories who depends quite a lot on builds based on set buffs. PvP at the start of the game were much more about skill and good teamwork than builds. In fact non-proc, non-CP still provides an environment which better balances pvp, unfortunately not many want to play that way. I think its nearly impossible to balance pvp in the set focused environment.

OBJnoob · May 2023

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

a ballgroup is perfectly balanced and within their rights to kill 120

They generally don't win the objective, nor do they actually wipe the whole zerg. They stall the fight and hold the objective hostage by running in circles so they can kill the same handful of disorganized casuals over and over. The solo equivalent would be running around an enemy resource tower for 20 mintues and your only kills are this one same 20k hp guy.

I'm not defending their right to troll I'm just saying the power imbalance between a ballgroup and a 12man casual Zerg isn't that different than the imbalance between a solo Xer and a casual midyear mayhemer.

And honestly isn't the solo guy running around a tower for 20 minutes only killing the casuals who worry more about chasing than managing their resources and accidently get there first over and over again... Isn't that EXACTLY the way it's done?

So I'm afraid I don't see your last point either. Seems more like a point for me. Exact same playstyle, exact same victims, exact same complaint.

xylena_lazarow · May 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

I'm not defending their right to troll...

The trolling is the point of a lot of these complaints. I bet there would be fewer complaints if the ball group wiped the zerg, captured the objective, then moved onto the next fight. It's the holding objectives hostage for the purpose of "farming" weaker players that is sending them to the forums complaining. It's not that they're powerful, it's what they do with that power. The solo may do the same thing, but has a hell of a lot less power than the ball.

Marcus684 · May 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

a ballgroup is perfectly balanced and within their rights to kill 120

They generally don't win the objective, nor do they actually wipe the whole zerg. They stall the fight and hold the objective hostage by running in circles so they can kill the same handful of disorganized casuals over and over. The solo equivalent would be running around an enemy resource tower for 20 mintues and your only kills are this one same 20k hp guy.

I'm not defending their right to troll I'm just saying the power imbalance between a ballgroup and a 12man casual Zerg isn't that different than the imbalance between a solo Xer and a casual midyear mayhemer.

And honestly isn't the solo guy running around a tower for 20 minutes only killing the casuals who worry more about chasing than managing their resources and accidently get there first over and over again... Isn't that EXACTLY the way it's done?

So I'm afraid I don't see your last point either. Seems more like a point for me. Exact same playstyle, exact same victims, exact same complaint.

You do have a point with this. The tower farming solos and small groups rely on casuals to farm their AP. Most experienced solo players don't bother with them because chasing someone around a tower is BORING. I often say in zone (for example), "1 AP farmer in Glade mine tower. Don't go if you have 17k health or in PvE gear" because the noobs haven't figured it out yet.

The solo tower farmer and the lap-running ball group are both using the same principles: build tanky with lots of heals and shields, use LOS to reduce incoming damage, and use procs and ults to damage dump on the pursuers. They also rely on the fact that most experienced players find battling them boring and frustrating, leaving the noobs and Alliance War role-players to get farmed by them.

There are exceptions to this, though. Like I've said before, there are a small handful of groups that have taken this to a higher level and can survive against literally any counter. This is part that I see as imbalanced and needs some kind of adjustment, because for a game to be fun, every player must face the same risk of victory or defeat.

OBJnoob · May 2023

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

I'm not defending their right to troll...

The trolling is the point of a lot of these complaints. I bet there would be fewer complaints if the ball group wiped the zerg, captured the objective, then moved onto the next fight. It's the holding objectives hostage for the purpose of "farming" weaker players that is sending them to the forums complaining. It's not that they're powerful, it's what they do with that power. The solo may do the same thing, but has a hell of a lot less power than the ball.

Agreed. But again, same thing with solo and small-scale farmers. I've seen just as many threads about tower farmers as I have about ballgroups. I still think it ranks very similarly on the "problem and imbalance" spectrum. Ball-groups will be threatened by less encounters because they are bigger-- true-- but it doesn't precipitate that therefore their mechanics are broken. It simply means there aren't many organized groups running these days.

Also, and lastly... I respect that SOME of the complaints are about the trolling and not the power. But we both know which one limiting HoT stacks is targeting.

Marcus684 wrote: »

There are exceptions to this, though. Like I've said before, there are a small handful of groups that have taken this to a higher level and can survive against literally any counter. This is part that I see as imbalanced and needs some kind of adjustment, because for a game to be fun, every player must face the same risk of victory or defeat.

A good Xer can be threatened whenever they run into another person of similar skill level, a decent small-scale group, or most any Zerg with eyes and thumbs. A good ballgroup has far less opportunity to be threatened, yes. But is that because the power exceeds the 12:1 ratio SO much or is it just because whales have less natural predators than mice?

I will agree that the weird PvE group buff sets create a exponential component to their power. But I think ultimately this is the point of grouping. If I can kill 3 people by myself but now suddenly my friend gets online I would hope to now be able to kill 6. If my friend and I would take a moment to alter our gear and ability bars perhaps we could kill 8 instead. Right?

But I will say one thing: I would be much faster to agree that certain group buff sets need nerfing than that stacks of heals should be limited. There's nothing at all over performing about Vigor. If you're solo you run Resolving and it's like 4x as strong as Echoing. If you're in a group of 4+ you run Echoing. If you're a 12man this makes you seem immune to most things. This doesn't seem imbalanced or broken to me. It seems like very simple addition.

Turtle_Bot · May 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

It seems like very simple addition.

This is the issue though when designing anything in games that has the ability to stack itself infinitely.

stacking things additively without diminishing returns allows for things to get out of balance extremely quickly because the effects they have and the power they enable become multiplied exponentially the more that gets added.

It's why you see in other, better balanced, games, that when abilities and procs are allowed to stack with themselves (if they are allowed to stack with themselves), they stack with diminishing returns. The diminishing returns are put in place to prevent exactly what is currently happening in ESO with ball groups stacking HoTs.

Zos has also already done this with multiple stacking mechanics in the past, including mitigation values and synergy stacking because they allowed for insane damage reduction and damage to the point that nothing was balanced anymore, so I don't see why applying this same fix to the latest form of stacking being abused (HoT stacking) is seen as such a contentious issue, it's been done in the past to other problematic stacking mechanics within eso and is standard practice when balancing mechanics that can stack across all games.

It's not like anyone is asking for HoTs from different abilities be made to not stack, just the HoTs from the same ability not being able to stack infinitely without some sort of diminishing returns to balance this out. This fix not only balances this mechanic and prevents abuse, just like this same fix did with mitigation stacking before they buffed the crap out of block with CP2.0. Ball groups will still be able to stack HoTs, but they will need to diversify and perhaps include other classes and other heals instead of just having everyone slot resto back bar with echoing + radiating and be free to use whatever they want in the other slots.

Ground based HoTs could also be exempt (or not diminish by as much) from this change since to keep that healing they lock the ball group down to a single (or at least a significantly smaller) location which can be much easier to apply counter pressure through sieges and negates which are designed to counter the ball groups than the current sticky HoT stacking that follows the group allows for.

Amottica · May 2023

AuraNebula wrote: »

TybaltKaine wrote: »

Would you walk into a veteran hardmode trial without assembling a cohesive group that plays off of each other's strengths? No. Why would you walk into Cyrodiil that way?

Cyrodiil is designed for group play. You can enter solo, but you won't be able to take a keep or do much of anything else that way.

Solo PVP is in Imperial City. Yes, you occasionally get groups there, but the area is so much smaller and the NPC's so much more threatening that you can kite them into other encounters and mitigate their advantage, see how quick a group dissolves when a boss shows up and a gate opens.

You either adapt to the content you are playing or get left behind. It's that simple.

I'm going to start off by saying I have nothing against ball groups. They're great and are needed in PvP. They help make things exciting.

However Cyrodiil is not specifically for groups only. You can 1vx, 2vx, 3vx, 1v1, etc. It is pretty much designed for everyone and is not specifically for groups only.

I'm just tired of hearing this group only narrative. Solo play is just as valid as group play. Lots of solos are taking resources, making call outs, setting down camps, and helping to siege.

You are correct that Cyrodiil is not just for groups. Every AvA/WvW setting I have seen has both groups and solo players. However, such PvP zones are designed with groups in mind.

OBJnoob · May 2023

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

It seems like very simple addition.

This is the issue though when designing anything in games that has the ability to stack itself infinitely.

stacking things additively without diminishing returns allows for things to get out of balance extremely quickly because the effects they have and the power they enable become multiplied exponentially the more that gets added.

It's why you see in other, better balanced, games, that when abilities and procs are allowed to stack with themselves (if they are allowed to stack with themselves), they stack with diminishing returns. The diminishing returns are put in place to prevent exactly what is currently happening in ESO with ball groups stacking HoTs.

Zos has also already done this with multiple stacking mechanics in the past, including mitigation values and synergy stacking because they allowed for insane damage reduction and damage to the point that nothing was balanced anymore, so I don't see why applying this same fix to the latest form of stacking being abused (HoT stacking) is seen as such a contentious issue, it's been done in the past to other problematic stacking mechanics within eso and is standard practice when balancing mechanics that can stack across all games.

It's not like anyone is asking for HoTs from different abilities be made to not stack, just the HoTs from the same ability not being able to stack infinitely without some sort of diminishing returns to balance this out. This fix not only balances this mechanic and prevents abuse, just like this same fix did with mitigation stacking before they buffed the crap out of block with CP2.0. Ball groups will still be able to stack HoTs, but they will need to diversify and perhaps include other classes and other heals instead of just having everyone slot resto back bar with echoing + radiating and be free to use whatever they want in the other slots.

Ground based HoTs could also be exempt (or not diminish by as much) from this change since to keep that healing they lock the ball group down to a single (or at least a significantly smaller) location which can be much easier to apply counter pressure through sieges and negates which are designed to counter the ball groups than the current sticky HoT stacking that follows the group allows for.

It's just literally not the same though. It's just not!

Reduced damage taken needs to have diminishing returns because it's a percentage that theoretically could be stacked to 100 and therefore make you literally take no damage no matter how many opponents show up. This WOULD be broken in the way you think HoT stacking is.

But HoT stacking is not. Because it isn't a percentage-- it's a fairly weak heal with an actual number attached to it. A number that is easily matched by a DPS. The ONLY reason it seems strong is because there are 12. Which is, again, just a number... A number that can be matched. Get 12 people together if you want to fight a ballgroup.

It really is just that simple.

Turtle_Bot · May 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

It seems like very simple addition.

This is the issue though when designing anything in games that has the ability to stack itself infinitely.

stacking things additively without diminishing returns allows for things to get out of balance extremely quickly because the effects they have and the power they enable become multiplied exponentially the more that gets added.

It's why you see in other, better balanced, games, that when abilities and procs are allowed to stack with themselves (if they are allowed to stack with themselves), they stack with diminishing returns. The diminishing returns are put in place to prevent exactly what is currently happening in ESO with ball groups stacking HoTs.

Zos has also already done this with multiple stacking mechanics in the past, including mitigation values and synergy stacking because they allowed for insane damage reduction and damage to the point that nothing was balanced anymore, so I don't see why applying this same fix to the latest form of stacking being abused (HoT stacking) is seen as such a contentious issue, it's been done in the past to other problematic stacking mechanics within eso and is standard practice when balancing mechanics that can stack across all games.

It's not like anyone is asking for HoTs from different abilities be made to not stack, just the HoTs from the same ability not being able to stack infinitely without some sort of diminishing returns to balance this out. This fix not only balances this mechanic and prevents abuse, just like this same fix did with mitigation stacking before they buffed the crap out of block with CP2.0. Ball groups will still be able to stack HoTs, but they will need to diversify and perhaps include other classes and other heals instead of just having everyone slot resto back bar with echoing + radiating and be free to use whatever they want in the other slots.

Ground based HoTs could also be exempt (or not diminish by as much) from this change since to keep that healing they lock the ball group down to a single (or at least a significantly smaller) location which can be much easier to apply counter pressure through sieges and negates which are designed to counter the ball groups than the current sticky HoT stacking that follows the group allows for.

It's just literally not the same though. It's just not!

Reduced damage taken needs to have diminishing returns because it's a percentage that theoretically could be stacked to 100 and therefore make you literally take no damage no matter how many opponents show up. This WOULD be broken in the way you think HoT stacking is.

But HoT stacking is not. Because it isn't a percentage-- it's a fairly weak heal with an actual number attached to it. A number that is easily matched by a DPS. The ONLY reason it seems strong is because there are 12. Which is, again, just a number... A number that can be matched. Get 12 people together if you want to fight a ballgroup.

It really is just that simple.

So if anyone wants to PvP now, they should just make their own ball groups otherwise they should just give up on PvP and not bother playing it at all, sounds like a real balanced playstyle and healthy outlook for the game... 🙄

If it was as easy as you claim it to be, then by your own logic and reasoning then faction stacks (80+ which often include groups of 12+ reasonably organized/highly skilled players) should be able to easily run over all ball groups, all the time, but they don't because ball groups with their current level of HoT stacking is NOT BALANCED like you are constantly trying to claim.

Ball groups are NOT A BALANCED PLAYSTYLE no matter how much <snip> you try to spout claiming they are.

Re-read my earlier response, HoT stacking needs diminishing returns because simply adding those stacks creates a multiplicative effect that is clearly outperforming ALL incoming damage, otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation.

As I have said before, it's not just the heal stacking that is the issue, its all the additional things that heal stacking enables, which is how many GCDs those stacked HoTs free up for the ball groups that allows them to reliably counter their counters leaving no counters to them outside of playing that playstyle. Those free GCDs are exactly why mitigation was given diminishing returns. Not having to actively defend themselves thanks to the stacked heals allows the ball groups to focus much more on offense which has been compounded by how strong the anti-zerg sets have become over the past few years.

It is a multiplicative effect and NOT an additive effect or number like you are trying to falsely claim it to be.

A playstyle that has NO COUNTERS is NOT a balanced or healthy playstyle for the game no matter how much you try to spin it with whatever <snip> you try to compare it with solos or small scales because those comparisons are outright misleading.

OBJnoob · May 2023

[snip]

I really don't care one way or the other. Tower farmers never bothered me and neither do ball groups. I decided to play against them, sometimes, and often get killed. I stay until it's no longer fun and then I leave.

I'm just trying to provide a different perspective wherein, if they want to compete with large groups who actually have talent, they might consider it to be fair that they themselves get a large group.

This shouldn't be taken hyperbolically to assume that I mean everyone should form a ballgroup or that solo players don't matter. People should, in my opinion, just take a reality pill and realize it wouldn't be fair to handicap large groups in a way that makes some of their numbers less valuable or able to do less things. What IS fair is that 2 beats 1 and 6 beats 3 and 12 beats 8. And if the one wants to beat 2 then they have to be good enough. And it happens every day. And if the 3 wants to beat the 6 they have to be good enough. And it happens every day. And if the 8 wants to beat the 12 they have to be good enough. And it happens every day. And if you encounter a group of 12 (the largest group possible,) that is good then the only way you can realistically compete with them is to have the same numbers with the same cohesion.

Everybody can't be X'd. Learn it. All groups aren't pugs. Respect it. Sometimes someone else's right to have fun will ruin yours. Live with it.

12 people with 12 ultis all landing at once will obliterate a ballgroup. The amount of damage you can pile into one or two seconds, from a min/maxed group dwarfs the tiny ticks of HoTs.

People throw around the term "faction stack" in this thread as though that's supposed to be the next echelon up. It's not, ladies and gentlemen. Faction stack = Zerg.

[Edited for Baiting]

Turtle_Bot · May 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

[snip]

I really don't care one way or the other. Tower farmers never bothered me and neither do ball groups. I decided to play against them, sometimes, and often get killed. I stay until it's no longer fun and then I leave.

I'm just trying to provide a different perspective wherein, if they want to compete with large groups who actually have talent, they might consider it to be fair that they themselves get a large group.

This shouldn't be taken hyperbolically to assume that I mean everyone should form a ballgroup or that solo players don't matter. People should, in my opinion, just take a reality pill and realize it wouldn't be fair to handicap large groups in a way that makes some of their numbers less valuable or able to do less things. What IS fair is that 2 beats 1 and 6 beats 3 and 12 beats 8. And if the one wants to beat 2 then they have to be good enough. And it happens every day. And if the 3 wants to beat the 6 they have to be good enough. And it happens every day. And if the 8 wants to beat the 12 they have to be good enough. And it happens every day. And if you encounter a group of 12 (the largest group possible,) that is good then the only way you can realistically compete with them is to have the same numbers with the same cohesion.

Everybody can't be X'd. Learn it. All groups aren't pugs. Respect it. Sometimes someone else's right to have fun will ruin yours. Live with it.

12 people with 12 ultis all landing at once will obliterate a ballgroup. The amount of damage you can pile into one or two seconds, from a min/maxed group dwarfs the tiny ticks of HoTs.

People throw around the term "faction stack" in this thread as though that's supposed to be the next echelon up. It's not, ladies and gentlemen. Faction stack = Zerg.

[Edited for Baiting]

[snip]

I also like how you completely skip over and refuse to even attempt to answer my repeatedly asked question of you, "why should a playstyle that is so unbalanced that good players are saying it's currently the only way to play be allowed to continue on without any changes or balances when everything else that is too strong/being abused is constantly getting nerfed/adjusted?

[snip]

A faction stack is a step up from a zerg though, it is the entire factions population (or near enough to it) all fighting in one area (typically around the same keep) whereas a zerg is typically around 20-40 players (2-3 groups), but sure lets just add another false equivalency of "faction stack = zerg" to the commentary because why not, we're falsely equating solos to ball groups anyway....

You also completely missed and derailed my entire point [snip]. My point was that ball groups are getting hit by THEIR COUNTERS being used by GROUPS LARGER THAN THEY ARE and those counters are not mattering.

As per your own words, numbers should matter, 2 beats 1, 6 beats 3, 12 beats 8, etc. So why is it that 12 is completely fine to be allowed to beat the 60+ over and over, this is the equivalent to the 1 always beating the 5 no matter how skilled those 5 are to the point that the 5 will never engage the 1 because there's no point.

[snip]

[Edited for Baiting]

OBJnoob · May 2023

Listen I'm going to be honest I didn't read your entire last post. I didn't read most of it.

I am actually not trying to troll this thread at all, or whatever else you accused me off. I'm not trying to tick you off, not picking a fight for fun or anything.

I guess you're still upset that when you mentioned bombing a ballgroup underneath someone else's negate and oils I used it as a transition to mention bombers and how their ability to blow up enormous amounts of people is arguably equal, proportionately, to ballgroup power.

And from there I said all sorts of things about how if a solo person (not talking bombers anymore just Xers,) can kill 10 then actually a ballgroup, proportionately, is within their rights to kill 120.

And at one point you replied to me that my crazy examples and hypotheticals equated to a solo person tanking a faction stack. [snip]

And I began replying to other people instead. Until recently you tried to say how HoT stacking is just like percentage modifiers for reduced damage taken. And it just isn't.

So. That's what I'm talking about.

Honestly I think the discussion of "well how many people can a solo person kill" and "how many can a good small-scale kill" is very relevant to "how many should a ballgroup kill before it's considered imbalanced." After all, we need to balance it against something else, right, or why use the word "balance?"

[snip]

[Edited for Minor Baiting]

xylena_lazarow · May 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

Also, and lastly... I respect that SOME of the complaints are about the trolling and not the power. But we both know which one limiting HoT stacks is targeting.

The HoT stacking is the main thing that enables trolling but does not enable them to actually end a fight.

OBJnoob · May 2023

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Also, and lastly... I respect that SOME of the complaints are about the trolling and not the power. But we both know which one limiting HoT stacks is targeting.

The HoT stacking is the main thing that enables trolling but does not enable them to actually end a fight.

-shrug- I don't know what to say. My best attempts to convince you won't convince you and I'm sure you feel as though your complaints are falling on deaf ears as well.

Ultimately I just feel like healing in general is perhaps overpowered and while it may be exemplified by a ballgroup it doesn't in fact have much to do with ballgrouping.

As I've said, there are solo players capable of killing 10 players. There are small-scale groups who can take on zergs. And there are ball-groups who can take on entire factions. This ladder of progression for what good/organized people can do in this game against people who are less good/organized seems actually fairly proportionate and balanced to me. It seems to exist on every level of numbers. So I don't see why ball-groups are being targeted other than that they are the largest allowable group and therefore a ballgroup capable of doing what an Xer can do can sometimes not be stopped because it is almost, or even literally, impossible to get enough players together to overcome.

I understand why that is frustrating. But I think it's rather low, for lack of a better word, to therefore want to nerf them specifically when their only crime is winning. Even more low to want to do so by limiting the amount of help teammates can provide eachother in large groups but not in other instances. It SEEMS very much to me like ball-groups are being scapegoated in this instance.

And while I wish they would just take the castle and leave instead of trolling until entire factions throw their controller and log off... I can't help but see parallels between that kind of trolling and the kind of trolling certain solo artists do on resources and the kind of trolling small-scalers might do on the towers of a keep's outer walls.

It is just as wrong to pretend ball-groups are the only trolls (or responsible for it,) as it is to pretend they are the only ones capable of healing through more damage than a balanced game would perhaps allow.

But people don't want actual nerfs to healing because most of us, here on the forums anyway, are decent/good/AMAZING players that pride themselves on fighting outnumbered and most of that honestly crutches on certain gear sets and the way damage also contributes to healing-- thereby allowing for extremely well-rounded builds. We value that the game allows for this sort of power imbalance and we call it the "skill gap." But we seem to resent that a bigger group with more flexibility and more toys should enjoy the same disparity. And I think that's very unfair, because it only stands to reason that more people should equal more power.

So, in the end, I just feel very much like these are very misguided complaints. To the point of being dishonest. And obviously some of you feel the same about my words.

I see no resolution to this debate, for me anyway, and so I guess I will bow out. I just want everyone to know I mean no disrespect, though I do occasionally say disrespectful things both on purpose and by accident. It is just as hard for me to understand your points that I so vehemently disagree with as it is for you to try and see it my way. Please don't construe my words to be spiteful or in jest... Because, if so, you honestly have forgone giving the discussion as much thought as it deserves.

ZOS_Phoenix · May 2023

Greetings,

After removing some unnecessary back and forth from this thread, we would like everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, civil, and constructive.

If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to review them here.

Meurto · May 2023

I see a lot of people in this thread condemning ball groups and others defending organized groups. I agree with both sides with the simple caveat that ball groups are not really representative of organized groups of games of the past with a similar game mode.

I saw someone mention DAOC previously (/salute Old Head) which is a great example of organized groups challenging much greater numbers through coordination and skillful organization. I say this as DAOC 8 man groups were an example where the group as a whole was far greater than the sum of it's parts. Each member had a specific function they fulfilled and you were a wheel in a cog where everyone had to perform their role in unison with other members of the group to be successful.

Another more recent game, GW2, was similar to DAOC without such rigid role definitions, but still group members fullfilled a core role of the group. Organization and coordination was also required and though less forgiving than DAOC group composition still required individuals functioning as a well oiled machine.

Now, ESO ball groups really aren't doing anything all that spectacular.

35-40k hp?
echoing vigor?
aoe spammable?
ult dump?

Sure, they move in unison, but there really isn't any remarkable degree of coordination. It is basically echoing spam, aoe spam and then ult dump on command. There is really no risk of anyone dying to far greater numbers (this was not true for DAOC or GW2) and this is really the result of the fact everyone can do everything well and balance is something that seems like it was given up on years ago. Until ZOS really makes an effort to balance the game we will continue have ball groups having great success with minimal effort.

disintegr8 · May 2023

Encountered what I think was my first ball group yesterday, which appeared to be led by a known 'baller' based on zone chat.

Mechanics seem pretty basic, sit in the top of a keep/outpost being attacked, choose a moment to come down and bomb kill anyone in proximity, run back upstairs for a while, come back down and kill anyone in proximity again, rinse and repeat until you have all been picked off one by one (if the attacking group is large enough).

Seems to be more of an AP farming technique rather than good combat practice. You can defend against small unorganized groups but because your targets need to be close to you and you don't stay on the ground to prevent rez's, or even get rez's, you're probably going to lose most fights eventually.

Didn't look like fun to me, being on the opposite side, but might have been fun for them and each to their own.

Elendir2am · May 2023

I don't see problem of ballgroups as something to blame ball groups members. Seeing what max optimized group can do should be main goal of this. However, we should be able make theire life much harder, so they should actualy show their skills. It looks more like lobotomy now, when they can just repeat same pattern for long minutes. It is question, why ZOS is resisting to implement some counter play.

By the way, HoTs i so broken now, that clash of balls take long time to resolve either.

Rhaegar75 · May 2023

I have to say I’m loving PvP now that the severs are working. Some people Zerg and although it’s annoying you can still take down a Zerg: incredibly fun when you are playing with the right people and strategy.

However, ‘ball groups’ are just a pain to play against. They act like bots and I wish ZOS could figure something out to mitigate their trolling power