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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8100050/#Comment_8100050
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8100050/#Comment_8100050
is eso stealing fanart?
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gariondavey✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@ZOS_Kevin have you seen this thread?PC NA @gariondavey, BG, IC & Cyrodiil Focused Since October 2017 Stamplar (main), Magplar, Magsorc, Stamsorc, StamDK, MagDK, Stamblade, Magblade, Magden, Stamden0 -
HybridFreak✭✭✭I'm actually more surprised that ZOS hasn't nuked the threads yet than I am about them stealing another artists work.15
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Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭FeedbackOnly wrote: »It should be interesting to see how their lawyers respond. Fair bet that the art in question will be considered a derivative work based on copyrights related to Elder Scrolls, which does grant certain rights to the original copyright owner. The question I have is whether it is deliberate or accidental and what the lawyers are going to come up with as a response.
Check out comparisons, there is no doubt it's a copy and paste Job
When it comes to copyright, that actually does not matter. What matters is who holds the rights to use the image. This is work derived from Elder Scrolls IP, which ZOS is licensed to use, so it is likely they have some rights to the work. The question at hand is "how much".At the very least this can be seen as a butthole move. Even if it would not be illegal due to it being fanart.
Context is required. I am curious as to the events that led up to them using this work. Did someone at ZOS grab the wrong image, thinking it was a Zenimax owned work? Did they realize that it was a third party work and decide they had clear rights to use it? Many avenues lead to these conclusions. For a lot of them, the term "butthole" only applies after we see how they respond.
gariondavey wrote: »@ZOS_Kevin have you seen this thread?
My prognostication skills suggest that if he replies, he will just say that they are aware of it and it has been passed on. We already know this from the artist, though. We won't find out anything about the outcome from ZOS. All information will come from the author of the fan art.Edited by Elsonso on April 10, 2023 12:22PM3 -
danno8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭After reading up on copyright law I think this case comes down to whether or not this material is sufficiently original for the new artist to have a copyright on their tatoos:
"The new material must be sufficiently original and creative to be copyrightable by itself.
Common examples of derivative works are:
A new, updated, or revised, edition of a book
A translation of a book into another language
A sequel to a novel or motion picture
A novel adapted to a screenplay, stage production, or motion picture
A new musical arrangement of a composition"
source: https://www.legalzoom.com/articles/what-are-derivative-works-under-copyright-law
I am not sure how original this is based on the examples given. Interesting debate for sure. I feel like the characters are not new, no new story or nothing new added, just a different style applied.
What do you guys think?
edit: and to be clear again, ZoS should have of course asked to use it in any case. [snip]
[edited for off-topic post]Edited by ZOS_Icy on April 14, 2023 11:29AM5 -
thejadefalcon✭✭✭✭✭Zodiarkslayer wrote: »Every fan art, that is using an IP as a reference, is fair game for the holder of the rights to that IP.
The fan art is derivitive and not an original.
And so Fan Art in any form has no protection legally. I don't see why there is any confusion about it.
If the artist had not used the words Almalexia, AlmSiVi, etc. and the Dunmer looking bodies and, say, a normal human looking one instead, than it is a completly different story.
Absolutely wrong on every level. I don't know what it is about needing to side with multibillion dollar corporations against unknown artists, but it's really drawing out these appalling takes. I don't pretend to be an IP lawyer myself, especially not one that specialises in international law, but I do know when someone doesn't have the slightest clue pipes up about it and there are a LOT of them here today.
You have a copyright to your work the moment you create it, fan art or not. You do not automatically sign away your rights for other people to profit on your work, regardless of who owns the initial character. You can't profit off of it because you don't own the original work, but they can't profit off of you either because they don't own yours.28 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Zodiarkslayer wrote: »Every fan art, that is using an IP as a reference, is fair game for the holder of the rights to that IP.
The fan art is derivitive and not an original.
And so Fan Art in any form has no protection legally. I don't see why there is any confusion about it.
If the artist had not used the words Almalexia, AlmSiVi, etc. and the Dunmer looking bodies and, say, a normal human looking one instead, than it is a completly different story.
Pretty much this.
What is interesting about this is the artist actually stated their drawings were of ip owned by Zenimax and that it was fab art. If they had not made reference to ESO and those notable characters within the IP the situation could be very different, but that is not the case.
Also interesting, there is a case before SCOTUS on this very issue but from a much more significant work. We are expecting to hear the findings of the court any day. Warhol Foundation vs Goldsmith.
@Zodiarkslayer and myself are not expressing our oppinion but merely pointing of the societal basis that determines if such work is actually original art or if somewhat appropriated another person (or companies) property.
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Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭gariondavey wrote: »@ZOS_Kevin have you seen this thread?
@gariondavey
Doubt Zenimax will reply to this issue as it is a legal manner. Their council would likely provide such advice.
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NotaDaedraWorshipper✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭markulrich1966 wrote: »Copyright on Elder Scrolls is owned by Zenimax/Bethesda.
Someone may create tattoos for personal use if this is tolerated by the copyright holders, but he does not have any copyright on them, as this is hold by the companies.
Sotha Sil is integral part of Elder Scrolls lore and Artwork, so he has no right to complain.
The violation imho was done by the self-proclaimed artist, who used the artwork and lore of Zenimax as inspiration for his tattoos.
Btw. I'm not whiteknighting Zenimax, in contrast lately write pretty critical and even play Fallout 76 more often than ESO meanwhile, still copyright is copyright, wheather you like it or not.
These laws are not super clear and it has a lot of grey areas, but no, they can't, that is just plain wrong and it baffles me how many here and on reddit think ZOS can just use this person'sor anyone's art willy nilly without permission. They can't.
Yes, ZOS own the character, but that art which is transformative and not a straight copy, belongs to the artist, it's theirs, and ZOS needs permission to use it. The artist may not be able to profit from it, but the art do belongs to them and ZOS has no part in it.
There's no might or doubt, it's straight up copy and pasted from this person's art.chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »From what I can tell, the style is based on Morrowind Concept Art but, I think that the actual details might be original to the fan art.
[Lie] Of course! I don't even worship Daedra!14 -
Ei8htba11✭✭✭✭I did some art WAAY back for Warhammer 40K, modding a game. I had no rights to the art I produced because it was considered a derivative of the original IP, and as such was still owned by the Games Workshop. I suspect something similar is in place here.0 -
ZOS_GinaBrunoCommunity ManagerHi everyone,
We are aware of the situation with the ESO Fan Artist. It was never our intention to include any community fan art without proper credit. We are in contact with the artist and will work with them to make sure that there is a proper resolution. We very much appreciate our community and the awesome fan art they produce.43 -
Wolfkeks✭✭✭✭✭
✭Thank you @ZOS_GinaBruno for sorting this out!
EU PC 2000+ CP professional mudballer and pie thrower"Sheggorath, you are the Skooma Cat, for what is crazier than a cat on skooma?" - FadomaiFormer Emperor, Grand Overlord, vAA hm, vHelRa hm, vSO hm, vMoL hm, vHoF hm, vAS+2, vCR+3, vSS hm, vKA, vRG, Flawless Conquerer, Spirit Slayer3 -
FeedbackOnly✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
[snip]FeedbackOnly wrote: »It is unlikely to be considered stealing as that is merely a style, not an actual design that is similar. I doubt that is the first time that style has ever been used to start with let alone copyrighted or even copyrightable by anyone.
They traced it at the very least, it's not just the style, you can lay the original over the tattoo and it matches up pretty much perfectly.
This is interesting and what the thread should have led off with to eliminate the solid quest I had before you presented this.
The issue becomes, has the artist taken steps to protect their work, or did their actions place their drawings into the public domain? The artist should seek council on this if that is their interest.
It's it's American artist then it's actually not public domain. Everyone in United states has their work protected at creation. They just can't sell it as they don't own ip.
I mean really why put such a ugly case in the public. Zos reputation is worth more then that. Do a minor payoff and win the public opinion on doing right thing.
Just imagine how this looks with new chapter coming out... just not worth it.
We all know the work is stolen and being sold
Pretty sure that is not correct. You don't need to be selling the derivative work in order to be hit with a Cease and Desist. In this case, because the artists creation is admittedly based on Elder Scrolls, his work is not his own.
Fan art is a kind of Grey area that most companies welcome as a constant source of exposure for their IP and a sign of how much people love the original work.
But there are some unwritten rules in using this kind of fan art. Rules like you should always credit the work others do. ZoS may not have to legally pay anything to the guy, but it's in bad form to not at least credit them.
Elder scrolls is much better. One of the mods on skyrim was originally player made. It's a brand known for supporting players
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on April 11, 2023 2:03PM0 -
DarcyMardin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Hi everyone,
We are aware of the situation with the ESO Fan Artist. It was never our intention to include any community fan art without proper credit. We are in contact with the artist and will work with them to make sure that there is a proper resolution. We very much appreciate our community and the awesome fan art they produce.
Very glad to hear ZOS has contacted the artist and is working on a resolution. I saw it on Reddit this morning and also on Twitter and was angry on behalf of the artist. Thanks for the update!
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alcoraptor✭✭✭However, as the author of the derivative also has copyright on their work, ZOS can't use it without their express permission!
This is not correct. Derivative works can have separate copyright applied to them, but only if there is sufficient new material within them to warrant it - and even then the copyright only applies to the new elements.
The fan art on the original post is clearly titled and attributed to ESO, and there are no original elements to it. All of the characters and symbols exist - and while the style is the artist's, that does not constitute copyrightable original work.
The ToS also does apply. It states:ZeniMax Owned UGC also includes all Content (other than Game Mods (as defined below)) that You create or develop using Content provided or made available by ZeniMax, including but not limited to Content that You create or develop that is a derivative work of the Content provided or made available by ZeniMaxEdited by alcoraptor on April 10, 2023 4:44PMPraise Vivec! You were there to stop Alexandra Conele from capturing the coral heart!2 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭alcoraptor wrote: »The fan art on the original post is clearly titled and attributed to ESO, and there are no original elements to it. All of the characters and symbols exist - and while the style is the artist's, that does not constitute copyrightable original work.
ZOS is actually working with the fan artist to rectify the situation.Edited by spartaxoxo on April 10, 2023 5:09PM0 -
FluffWit✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Hi everyone,
We are aware of the situation with the ESO Fan Artist. It was never our intention to include any community fan art without proper credit. We are in contact with the artist and will work with them to make sure that there is a proper resolution. We very much appreciate our community and the awesome fan art they produce.
Why did you use the word credit here instead of permission?
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FeedbackOnly✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Hi everyone,
We are aware of the situation with the ESO Fan Artist. It was never our intention to include any community fan art without proper credit. We are in contact with the artist and will work with them to make sure that there is a proper resolution. We very much appreciate our community and the awesome fan art they produce.
Why did you use the word credit here instead of permission?
I would assume it's got a double meaning towards types of payment too, but without saying we stole the work.
Plenty of time before next chapter for it still make news again. The lost from sales if people turn away sure would be less then proper payment to an artist0 -
brylars✭✭✭There is nothing anyone can do. The company has the money, the game, and the lawyers.
They wont compensate the artist. They will blame the artist for "misunderstanding policy."
It's too expensive to sue a corporation. 10k+ just to start and the company owns the rights to the character but not the art style. It existed prior to the game.
Corporations understand money. Enough said.Edited by brylars on April 10, 2023 5:20PM0 -
FeedbackOnly✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@brylars original artist has been contacted and teso is working on resolution to this.
Guess not all companies are evil?Edited by FeedbackOnly on April 10, 2023 5:28PM5 -
BaalMelqartu✭✭✭✭I just read an article about this and I now feel dirty playing ESO. I doubt I'll quit playing but wow, I wish I could un-know this.4 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭BaalMelqartu wrote: »I just read an article about this and I now feel dirty playing ESO. I doubt I'll quit playing but wow, I wish I could un-know this.
What article is this?0 -
Luke_Flamesword✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I don't think that such a big company want to steal any creations of other people when making new one is very little cost compared to whole budget and PR problems can be a real nightmare. The weakest link are always people and in big companies it's normal that from time to time there will be someone who will make some stupid thing (on purpose or not) and rest of team will not catch this. Sometimes company are a victim too, when for example they pay for some work from "artist" and later it turns out that it was stolen from somebody else.
It's impossible to prevent all of this all the time.
I think that ZOS as company don't do everything right and I'm not fan of some of their "corporation philosphy" but I don't think that stealing art is one of theirs problems. Maybe only some quality control in that case PC | EU | DC |Stam Dk Breton8 -
BaalMelqartu✭✭✭✭BaalMelqartu wrote: »I just read an article about this and I now feel dirty playing ESO. I doubt I'll quit playing but wow, I wish I could un-know this.
What article is this?
https://www.gamespot.com/articles/elder-scrolls-online-dev-says-its-working-on-a-resolution-after-stolen-art-claim/1100-6513114/0 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Do you think they will remove the skin from crown store….?
Probably not. They will negotiate something with the creator.1 -
fjord55b14_ESO✭✭✭markulrich1966 wrote: »well seems a solution might be approaching.
Copy&paste to avoid screenshot-uploads:
"littleouroboros
Hey, I'm a dev on ESO. I'm not on the player cosmetics team, but I'll definitely reach out to someone about this. Contact me if you'd like to provide an email and name I can refer to."
Source:
https://www.tumblr.com/relan-daevath/714132763526217728/hm-well-i-am-a-bit-shocked-19-jule-2020-i
Sounds like a ZOS is willing to communicate. If only they were contacted directly.
Seems like a lot of public airing of dirty laundry going on around towards ZOS by the OP, instead of first contacting ZOS and trying to resolve. Just saying…shows a type of attitude.markulrich1966 wrote: »well seems a solution might be approaching.
Copy&paste to avoid screenshot-uploads:
"littleouroboros
Hey, I'm a dev on ESO. I'm not on the player cosmetics team, but I'll definitely reach out to someone about this. Contact me if you'd like to provide an email and name I can refer to."
Source:
https://www.tumblr.com/relan-daevath/714132763526217728/hm-well-i-am-a-bit-shocked-19-jule-2020-i
Sounds like a ZOS is willing to communicate. If only they were contacted directly.
Seems like a lot of public airing of dirty laundry going on around towards ZOS by the OP, instead of first contacting ZOS and trying to resolve. Just saying…shows a type of attitude.
If a billion dollar company stole and was profiting off of my artwork, I’d go scorched earth too.. <snip>markulrich1966 wrote: »well seems a solution might be approaching.
Copy&paste to avoid screenshot-uploads:
"littleouroboros
Hey, I'm a dev on ESO. I'm not on the player cosmetics team, but I'll definitely reach out to someone about this. Contact me if you'd like to provide an email and name I can refer to."
Source:
https://www.tumblr.com/relan-daevath/714132763526217728/hm-well-i-am-a-bit-shocked-19-jule-2020-i
Sounds like a ZOS is willing to communicate. If only they were contacted directly.
Seems like a lot of public airing of dirty laundry going on around towards ZOS by the OP, instead of first contacting ZOS and trying to resolve. Just saying…shows a type of attitude.
<snipped for trolling>
Edited by ZOS_Hadeostry on April 10, 2023 9:37PM10 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »alcoraptor wrote: »The fan art on the original post is clearly titled and attributed to ESO, and there are no original elements to it. All of the characters and symbols exist - and while the style is the artist's, that does not constitute copyrightable original work.
ZOS is actually working with the fan artist to rectify the situation.
But that does not change what @alcoraptor stated. Even the fan artist acknowledged when they published the work that it was a derivative of ESO IP rather than an original work.
I think it is great Zenimax is working to acknowledge the artist as that is the proper thing to do but that does not change the legal facts of the matter.
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FluffWit✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »
Thanks and sorry. Now I'm wondering how I ended up finding it.... must have been linked on reddit0
