Empower needs a nerf

Cayr · January 2023

rauyran wrote: »

Jeejee wrote: »

It should not be possible to get so much damage with so little effort as by holding down one button while also gaining unlimited resources. Abilities that actually cost resources should be the main source of damage

Why? What are your reasons?

Because that's how the whole game works? There's resources, there's skills, you cast them using those resources and have to manage them, the same as you manage your HP. Like in every RPG. Where if you run out of health, you die. Or in any FPS games if you run out of ammo, no more shooting for you. But with this, you're having to cast basically no skills and just heavy attacking also means you never have to manage your resources in any way, so it's just completely circumventing core combat mechanics.

Don't get me wrong, I like Oakensoul as a concept, I like that it gives people the option, but especially in ESO with their mantra being "play your own way", with so many weapon options, hundreds of set options and possible combinations, there is no way engaging less should be getting rewarded this much over everything else except than the meta ceiling. I don't think it's even a problem with the item, it's just the Empower value on it being way too overtuned. Even if Empower was just 40% (or maybe like 50%), it would still be a strong mythic and it'd be more than viable to clear vet content with a 1-bar HA build while making 2-bar builds still feel rewarding enough to be a comparable and worthwhile option for newer players in terms of damage output.

Troodon80 · January 2023

CGPsaint wrote: »

Show me your parse with a Sorc hitting 100K using zero skills. Even if there is 1 person who can hit 100K, that is not the norm. Stop trying to gatekeep content because people aren't playing the way that you want them to. It just makes you sound like an elitist and brings nothing positive to a struggling game.

I assume they are talking about the one person on YouTube with a 103k parse using more than just heavy attacks.

Troodon80 · January 2023

Cayr wrote: »

But with this, you can get close-to-meta DPS without casting a single skill.

What exactly is your definition of "close to meta"? Because I don't think you quite understand the sizeable gap between the upper limits of Oakensoul builds vs. actual meta builds. The upper limit for an Oakensoul build is around 100k. That's a flawless parse and is not just heavy attacking. But you said without casting a single skill. With just heavy attacking, you're looking at around 65k~75k. The upper limit for a "meta" build is around 135k. That's approximately... double. You really should look at the finer details before you make assertions. "Without casting a single skill" will not see you get even remotely close to meta level of DPS.

Example of not casting any skills, heavy attacks with no downtime:

My maths might not be the best, but as far as I can tell that's 65,310 DPS coming from heavy attacks and the rest comes from passive pet attacks (with no activation). Grand total, rounded up, of 75k. You will not, under any circumstances, be getting competitive "close-to-meta" DPS without casting a single skill. Easy DPS is one thing, and it is brainlessly easy, but it's not competitive and it's not close to meta.

KilianDermoth · January 2023

No, just by holding left mousbutton it is possible to parse for 80k. Without casting a single skill at all.

Edit, because the previous Post was edited:
With saying that you can achive 80k DPS by just holding down the left mousebutton, I meant that you can do this amount by pressing down the left mouse button not that the whole damage comes only from heavy attacks. In my opinion it doesnt matter if pets contribute or not, what matters is the effort the player has to put in. But yes those 80k were with pets, enchancements, status effects and so on included.

To prove it, here is an 78k parse which exactly did this.
https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/yw4bw5/78k_dps_just_from_holding_down_left_click_build/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

Its not 80k, but with a few minor adjustment to this build a friend could increase it by more than 2k DPS and achieve 80k+ just by holding down the left mouse button. And I think its even not the most optimized build yet he was using and I could think about 1 or 2 other minor tweaks.

Now if you start heavy attack weaving (what is really easy to do, once someone has explained it to you) you can even easily increase the damage output beyond 90k up to 100k+. And yes I have seen such parses already.

Kalterran · January 2023

Oakensoul is clearly helping to achieve exactly what ZOS set out to do, which was help raise the floor level and help basic players do more content.

Me: I am very happy that when I queue for a random normal as a tank, it is now much more common that players can do more damage than they could half a year ago, and the dungeon run is faster and more fun.

Me: When I raid lead a veteran trial, and someone who only has time to play the game a couple of hours a week wants to come, we can totally help farm a couple of dungeon sets with them, and then teach them the trial, and now the guild has a new trial member. This is great for me, great for the guild, and great for someone who has a professional life. Veteran trials should not only be the province of unpopular teenage boys who don't do anything in the real world.

As to any idea that people using Oakensoul will never improve: they have improved their game already by farming kit and learning how to use it. They improve further when I teach them veteran content by learning where to stand, when to dodge or block, when to stop damage and when to burn etc etc. Likely the next step would be to a heavy attack based two bar build if they want to, and then later to a LA build, but if they are happy with the gameplay they can enjoy with a single bar build, why would I push them to do more than that? Everyone should be free to find the level and complexity of gaming that they enjoy.

For all the buffs that Oakensoul uses: Just casting Degeneration from the mages guild line once every three heavy attacks will give you most of the damage buffs, and minor courage you get from Claw, and for trials Expansive Frost Cloak and Ring of Preservation will commonly be put down to protect the group by a warden healer, so other players get these defensive buffs also.

"Real" end gamers should be aspiring to perfect LA rotations of 120k that will get them progressions to tick-tock tormentor etc, and all the bragging rights that they would like to get from these. Having easy rotations that can achieve 80k DPS levels that are 70% or so of an end gamer rotations is perfectly sensible and allows lots of players into interesting content without stealing anything from the end gamer. Real end gamers I know generally are supportive and want to encourage ways for new players to get in.

It could possible be described as selfish if a player is so personally affronted that someone with less time/ability/lag is able to do reasonably decent damage and therefore able to play fun parts of the game, and wants to take this away from another player.

gariondavey · January 2023

CGPsaint wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Uhhh no, it definitely is the same damage. How do I know this? I've seen 90k+ parses, I've seen people do same dps as me in-content on a HA build, I've seen several endgamers switch TO HA because its just easier with the same damage, to the point that those same players are hosting all HA trifecta runs. There's nothing wrong with having fun but objectively an easier build shouldn't have the same damage as one that is more difficult. And yes, they have more survivability, at least from what I've seen with oakensoul HA sorcs. I know this because I've seen them solo vet dlc bosses right in front of me and they just won't die. I do not care one bit if someone is using a one-bar build, but I do care that those same people rush ahead in dungeons and that people are switching to it just because it's easy. I don't think that one-bar shouldn't be viable nor do I think that ha should be obliterated, but I do think it needs to be toned down just a little bit.

1.) I can push 90K on a trial dummy with a perfect rotation, but that doesn't translate to 90K in actual content.

2.) If one-bar/HA builds are pumping out the same or more damage than your standard build, then that 100% a you problem.

3.) The survivability that you're referring to is due to Critical Surge being such an amazing passive heal and really has nothing to do with a one-bar/HA build. My Sorc is easily my tankiest DPS character due to Crit Surge/Hardened Ward. That being said, I prefer to run my Warden because I'm pushing higher damage and bring more group utility/healing.

4.) Rushing ahead in dungeons is not even remotely exclusive to one-bar/HA builds.

You obviously don't like one-bar/HA builds, but from your own comments it sounds like you're placing the blame for your issues in the wrong place. Play the game the way that you want to, and if you're still having issues then I suggest you find like-minded people to play with so that you can avoid the perceived issues that are clearly triggering you.

Big agree, especially point 2.
Pretty much / thread right here.

Cayr · January 2023

Troodon80 wrote: »

Cayr wrote: »

But with this, you can get close-to-meta DPS without casting a single skill.

What exactly is your definition of "close to meta"? Because I don't think you quite understand the sizeable gap between the upper limits of Oakensoul builds vs. actual meta builds. The upper limit for an Oakensoul build is around 100k. That's a flawless parse and is not just heavy attacking. But you said without casting a single skill. With just heavy attacking, you're looking at around 65k~75k. The upper limit for a "meta" build is around 135k.

Example of not casting any skills, heavy attacks with no downtime:

My maths might not be the best, but as far as I can tell that's 65,310 DPS coming from heavy attacks and the rest comes from passive pet attacks (with no activation). Grand total, rounded up, of 75k. You will not, under any circumstances, be getting competitive "close-to-meta" DPS without casting a single skill. Easy DPS is one thing, and it is brainlessly easy, but it's not competitive and it's not close to meta.

I was not referring to the upper limit. I understand that the upper limit potential on it is higher. I meant the setups themselves, not meta setups along with near-perfect use. As we all know, having the "meta" gear, traits, enchants and all that jazz doesn't mean you'll do anywhere near the ceiling. Most people even with those builds will hover around 80-100k, so that's what I was referring to - average use of meta builds rather than the ceiling. The same person, who doesn't weave very well, running a meta setup vs 1-bar oaken HA build, they will likely do equivalent damage on the latter for a fraction of the effort. Or new players, for example, who don't even have access to the meta setup, have no real incentive aside from the "it'll be worth someday if I can manage to get to the ceiling" to put in way more effort into a 2-bar build for worse results.

On the 100k possibility - fair enough if you've tested it and know more about it, it's just what I've heard from people who use HA sorcs, not my own. I'm not a DD main, don't really have a dog in this fight, but it's really disheartening to see people put in a ton of effort into the game to come up with cool builds and get barely equivalent or even worse results than a 1-bar. I wish they'd do a better job balancing off-meta builds in general, not just Oakensoul HA ones, like it currently feels. HA builds were not viable for a long time and that was a problem, but it's almost like they went "eeh, just make an item that puts a 80% modifier on heavy attacks" and called it a day (yes, I know Empower can be received from other sources, but that's not really what's happening, is it). HA builds should absolutely be viable, and they may not be competitive with the meta, but because of Empower being provided as a static buff on an item and it having such a huge modifier, they are currently over-rewarded compared to 2-bar builds, in terms of the effort required for the same damage output. And yeah I can see how it may come off as "you have not suffered like I have suffered!" type of deal, but I personally feel the game should feel rewarding for your efforts in it, which is currently not the case unless you are one of the players who is actually able to get the meta ceiling out of 2 bars.

All of that being said, though, I completely get why people like the build so much and ultimately it's no skin off end-gamers' noses what anyone else uses (not really worried about the endgamers anyway, they'll be just fine, they can keep abusing the defensive buffs on Oakensoul for trifectas in peace). Another poster here said this could be a good way to get more people interested in veteran trials. I do hope that's the case, but also that it's hopefully more of a springboard rather than a permanent crutch because playing anything else is not worth the effort for the potential reward both in terms of easy damage as well as far easier survivability with no thought put into it.

Zama666 · January 2023

Can I have a Heavy Heal? Does 80% more healing?

Hyperdeathstalker · January 2023

I find the heavy attack builds to be brilliant for the game as it allows more players to reach higher dps numbers easier. This in turn creates a larger pool of players who are more capable to do vet content etc. Its helping to keep the game alive why nerf it?

Check out this video as an example of over 100k dps:

https://youtu.be/f9iWz4fggdI

MidniteOwl1913 · January 2023

If some people are able to use an Oaksoul HA build to achieve a DPS that allows them access to content they wouldn't be able to do otherwise. I say more power to them! It's good for them and good for the game.

If some players want to look down their noses at the people who use these tools, okay fair enough. They are free to do so, but that doesn't give anyone the right to take them away.

Lumenn · January 2023

This is the kind of thing that has made me walk away from pvp in disgust SEVERAL times over the years. This "king of the hill" mentality in which players come in hot and heavy for a nerf on something, and come to find out they haven't even tested it, it's just something they've "heard", regurgitate a bunch of made up "facts" and grab the torches and pitchforks, flooding the forums. It's why we can't have anything nice and why every class is the same now. We beg for it ourselves.

For one of the FEW times in recent memory Zos absolutely NAILED it with oakensoul. They actually raised the floor without lowering the ceiling. I've played 7 years. I can la weave just fine. I have YET to see a HA build do the dps an optimal bar swapping la weave. Pugs(when I do them) are much more enjoyable. If it makes trials better great! Tanks are happier. Standing in front of a test dummy pushing buttons over and over again to get my rotation down has never been fun, shouldn't have ever been this important in a GAME but hey if that's what you want play your way. Oakensoul helped breathe life back into areas of the game that were hurting.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2023

it's fine. it's not that good compared to weaving builds.

CGPsaint · January 2023

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

If some people are able to use an Oaksoul HA build to achieve a DPS that allows them access to content they wouldn't be able to do otherwise. I say more power to them! It's good for them and good for the game.

If some players want to look down their noses at the people who use these tools, okay fair enough. They are free to do so, but that doesn't give anyone the right to take them away.

You could almost say that ZOS is empowering them...

Zama666 wrote: »

Can I have a Heavy Heal? Does 80% more healing?

Absolutely. Healing should be re-evaluated for sure, but not at the expense of or detriment to Oakensoul or HA builds. It's been said so many times, but it would be grand if ZOS balanced PvE and PvP separately so that changes to one don't affect the other. Healing definitely needs to be addressed for different reason in PvE and PvP.

Kalterran · January 2023

Oakensoul 1bar builds that just purely hold down the left mouse button will get you about 70-75k DPS maximum.
Oakensoul 1bar builds that don't slot self heals or shields and require a rotation get about 80-90k DPS, and truly exceptionally up to about 100k.
Moving to a 2 bar heavy attack build that still focusses on heavy attacks but puts down backbar DOTs and does LA weaving while doing so will get to about 100k DPS or a little over. (Normally rotation of something like: backbar to apply DOTs, cast Degeneration, HAx3, repeat)
Pure LA builds (which some would criticise these days because they rely on proc effects of Whorl and Pillar for sizable chunks of damage) will get about 120k+ DPS, but only if you are good at the rotation and can time 20second, 30second and 10second DOTs on cooldown.

That is the ladder to climb to move from standard veteran to veteran hardmode and score runs.
Videos that show 1bar builds achieving 100k damage or over all tend to either be hybrid HA/LA/skills builds or to have been taken when Oakensoul was just released or taken on PTS servers.

That ladder of improvement is totally appropriate, gives a clear intermediate path to moving from 1bar Oakensoul builds to HM end game (if and only if players want to try for that), and gives players with limited ability for whatever reason to parse all their lives the chance to do veteran content and be a valuable and inclusive member of their guilds for PVE.

ZOS_Icy · January 2023

Greetings,

We have recently removed some unnecessary Flaming in addition to some back and forth from this thread.

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Thank you for your understanding.

Kalterran · January 2023

Just because I think this comment from a previous poster was just so accurate: "Zos absolutely NAILED it with oakensoul. They actually raised the floor without lowering the ceiling."

I really do have to thank ZOS for allowing me to now teach and include almost my entire guild in veteran content now, rather than only a select few who have the time to play the game for hours every day.

KilianDermoth · January 2023

Kalterran wrote: »

Oakensoul 1bar builds that just purely hold down the left mouse button will get you about 70-75k DPS maximum.

Scroll up. I literally have posted a proof with an actual parse just doing this and it is higher than just 70-75k DPS, a friend managed even > 80k just holding down one button...

Kalterran wrote: »

That is the ladder to climb to move from standard veteran to veteran hardmode and score runs.

...

That ladder of improvement is totally appropriate, gives a clear intermediate path to moving from 1bar Oakensoul builds to HM end game (if and only if players want to try for that),

With 2 80k DPS damage dealers you could probably finish every dungeon HM in this game - just by holding down one button on the damage dealer. Probably even most (all?) dungeon trifectas. So there is literally no need to improve, no ladder anymore.

Further the skill difference of holding down just one button (at all / most of the time) and doing a proper rotation where even fractions of seconds matter and weaving as also playing some set mini games is so drastically big in difference that probably most wont ever try or give up immediately.

There are plenty damage dealers who tried this for a long time and still do worse than this kind of build, so how do you expect a damage dealer that just purely relied on holding down a single button learns to do all this? He probably will end up doing about 30k-40k DPS at max with a meta build that could do 130k+ and then he will see that his 1 bar ducktape build still can do 80k while he is afk. The common reaction would be: "*words that might get filterd*, I am going back to the ducktape build."

So the problem isnt the increased ceiling its the transition between that increased ceiling to something above this plateu, the ring and such builds create.

Kalterran wrote: »

and gives players with limited ability for whatever reason to parse all their lives the chance to do veteran content and be a valuable and inclusive member of their guilds for PVE.

I am not against allowing more people to play a game, but are you someone with limited abilities? If not, then please dont speak for this group. Because they can voice themselves and I bet there are some people in this group that dont like to get special "treatment". I met some in real life who hated being "special treated" at all times in real life. Some of them might be lucky that people dont know about them in computer games and treat them normal. Also even people from this group like challenges and like to overcome them and improve and foremost being treated normal and not used for some arguments...

Btw. I for myself exactly know how it is to have limited abilities (even only temporarily yet) because I couldnt use one of my hands for some months, once even for almost half an year completely and partly up to 2 years (car accident and operation, and no I wasnt the driver). Guess what, it was hard to game with one hand (but real life was so much more difficult to handle, even simple stuff like cooking noodles), but I got used to (in gameing) quickly and could still improve and this encouraged me and helped me.

And even in that situation I had ditched games where I just had to hold down a single button and started watching movies instead, because movies would be as engaging as such games but so much more interesting to watch.

Btw. I think Oakesnoul is a nice thing for lazy solo play and questing (even overland really dont need to be easier as it already is). But the thing is what game do people want ESO to be? One with challenges (and if you think some are to difficult, then yes, I think the same, also the gap between the easiest and hardest content ist astronmical, but I dont think Oakensoul and such builds in the actual form is the answer). Or do people want just a game without challenges and win everything by investing only time and money without (fair) challenges? For me the answer is definetely no.

So I really wonder how people would think about a "I win button" (alterantively about cheats / console commands like kill / trainers you can have in single player games), because you could have the exact same conversation with the exact same arguments about such a button (and other similar stuff). It would enable exactly the same things as oakensoul and heavy attack builds do. Also it would made the game as boring / irrelevant long term. Do people really enjoy to hold one button, for days, weeks, months or even years?

Cheats btw. can also give someone short term fun and allow to do content one wasnt able to do before. But usually they ruin the long term fun and I fear that this ring and such builds will have a similar effect.

haelgaan · January 2023

for PvE, Oakensoul is helping bring up the lower to middling DPS players. Players that can do a good rotation and are using the most effective skills can always out-DPS Oakensoul by a solidly good amount. Oakensoul is raising the floor, and doesn't hold a candle to regular two-bar builds.

and thank goodness for Oakensoul - helping low-to-middle DPS players raise their DPS and be competitive for vet dungeon or trial content is helping keep those alive, after the cratering of playerbase for harder content after U35.

Kalterran · January 2023

@KilianDermoth Given that you have quoted me multiple times, I guess it is only polite to reply.

I currently live in two separate locations, and in one place I can only connect through my mobile phone, which produces a lot of lag, and when I play there LA builds just really can't work; so HA builds or at least HA/LA hybrid builds are far more reliable when skills often don't get recognised due to lag. So yes, I do consider myself at least half the time to be in the category of people who are limited in some way, and no, I don't think that choosing to play in a style that suits my circumstances makes me any less of a player or person regardless of what reason makes a player choose a playstyle.

If you are having problems doing dungeon HM (I was referring to Trial HM and trials scoring for the DPS examples above), then I would recommend more attention to footwork and learning mechanics, as it is quite possible to complete many dungeon HM with not much DPS. Whereas knowing when to step out of poison areas, hiding behind pillars, knowing when to stack and when to split, dodge-rolling, etc etc and following mechanics is far more important. For mechanics like this, it is exactly the same learning for heavy attack users as for light attack users.

There seems to be a bit of a fixation that to "improve" means moving to a LA dynamic rotation, and only this seems to be something that you consider a worthy playstyle. Heavy attack builds have been in play long before Oakensoul, and were totally how I first farmed vet Maelstrom when it first came out way before even One Tamriel, because it made long repetitive farming much easier. If so many people, even in this forum thread, clearly love the hugely positive benefits of heavy attack builds, and it allows more people into veteran content, and ZOS clearly had the aim of improving heavy attack rotations and raising the floor, why would you feel so bitter about someone doing similar damage to you just because in your mind it is "with less effort"?

KilianDermoth · January 2023

No, improveing means improveing in any aspect. But the damage and how you achieve that damage is the only thing that differs between both, so its the most relevant thing if comparing 2 different variants. And I still think the oakensoul / heavy attack build will hinder players in this aspect.

Technical limitation != being a person with limited abilities. Thats even not close to be the same.

Also your technical problem can be fixed by recodeing how this game works, without the need for heavy attack or oakensoul. Also ZOS can make light attacks easier and in my opinion they should by makeing it queueable (like it is possible with pure skills) and this would also fix your lag issue.

Btw. dont aggreeing to something to 100% or haveing another opinion doesnt mean someone is bitter 😉

Kalterran · January 2023

I suspect anyone from ZOS reading this thread will be able to tell that heavy attack users and/or Oakensoul users do not feel hindered, but thank you for your concern that "how you achieve that damage" will somehow limit our ability to enjoy the game.

KilianDermoth · January 2023

And what will happen if those people will progress to more difficult content? Will they still not be hindered? And if they get exluded from groups that do the most difficult content will they still enjoy the game?

Lumenn · January 2023

KilianDermoth wrote: »

And what will happen if those people will progress to more difficult content? Will they still not be hindered? And if they get exluded from groups that do the most difficult content will they still enjoy the game?

The same thing that happens on a lower level now? They either learn to weave or if they are unable to, do to limitations (physical OR technical) then they're stuck, just having gotten to see more of the game than some seem to want them to.

I'm old. I KNOW the old joke about "back in MY day" because in MY day things WERE harder. But I'm grateful I didn't have it as hard as my parents and that my kids and grandkids have it easier than I did. I still see some misguided folk my age spouting that stuff, just never thought I'd see it in a VIDEO GAME 😂😂

As a side note, some people might be more receptive and at least CONSIDER where a person is coming from if certain language isn't used. [snip]
[edited for baiting]

MidniteOwl1913 · January 2023

KilianDermoth wrote: »

And what will happen if those people will progress to more difficult content? Will they still not be hindered? And if they get exluded from groups that do the most difficult content will they still enjoy the game?

Well considering without the tools they won't get anywhere near that difficult content it seems a moot point.

KilianDermoth · January 2023

Lazy isn't really an insult in this context it's just the other extreme of sweaty, try hard, challenging or how you want to call it and I sometimes like to play lazy builds myself but compared to a heavy Attack oakesoul Ring even those aren't lazy. For me it's a normal word in this context do describe one extreme of a metric / scale of builds and the oakensoul heavy attack build is just the most extreme build in this regard.

But I am wondering if you are really serious that people get personally attacked if someone compares virtual items / builds with cheats or i win buttons. In all seriousness, are you really serious!? You said yourself it's just a video game, how can calling an item that literally allows to play a game half way on auto pilot, which it factually does, a cheat be an insult?

Or do you identify yourself with an in-game item / build of an video game?

Btw. as an older person that has probably also experienced older games and especially cheats in them, you probably know that some of those cheats still left some challenges (if it's not something Like God mode) while this ring combined with such build just removes a big chunk of the combat and allows to skip it, exactly like a chat / I win button would do.

MidniteOwl1913 · January 2023

To me, a lot of this post seems to be about sour grapes. That some people may be able to attain a level of DPS without the weaving LA skill (and all the time and effort that goes with it). That animation canceling was considered a core skill, no really *the* core still always baffled me. When I started EOS (my first video game) I expected to need to learn puzzles, maybe learning to aim, builds and such but such an arbitrary thing like animation canceling? Nope! And to have to spend hours on that skill in order to move up in the game? Weird, it's just plain weird.

Why on earth would do that when there is a reasonably good alternative?

MidniteOwl1913 · January 2023

KilianDermoth wrote: »

No, just by holding left mousbutton it is possible to parse for 80k. Without casting a single skill at all.

Edit, because the previous Post was edited:
With saying that you can achive 80k DPS by just holding down the left mousebutton, I meant that you can do this amount by pressing down the left mouse button not that the whole damage comes only from heavy attacks. In my opinion it doesnt matter if pets contribute or not, what matters is the effort the player has to put in. But yes those 80k were with pets, enchancements, status effects and so on included.

To prove it, here is an 78k parse which exactly did this.
https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/yw4bw5/78k_dps_just_from_holding_down_left_click_build/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

Its not 80k, but with a few minor adjustment to this build a friend could increase it by more than 2k DPS and achieve 80k+ just by holding down the left mouse button. And I think its even not the most optimized build yet he was using and I could think about 1 or 2 other minor tweaks.

Now if you start heavy attack weaving (what is really easy to do, once someone has explained it to you) you can even easily increase the damage output beyond 90k up to 100k+. And yes I have seen such parses already.

I tried this and got nowhere near 70k. Maybe just the PC (I'm on the console) but for me it just isn't possible. Because I'm on the console I can't come up with the pretty logs, but I'll try it again and at least try and take a screenshot.

I point this out because having one, two, or a dozen people who can do this isn't enough to matter. If you want something to be changed because of it then *most* people should be able to accomplish it.

KilianDermoth · January 2023

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

KilianDermoth wrote: »

And what will happen if those people will progress to more difficult content? Will they still not be hindered? And if they get exluded from groups that do the most difficult content will they still enjoy the game?

Well considering without the tools they won't get anywhere near that difficult content it seems a moot point.

It depends. For those that are unable or unwilling to put in more effort this might be true.

For beginners who just start and want to improve (btw. a basic concept of computer games that aren't just interactive movies) or put effort in this isn't true.

But since the ring and such builds exist and do that good for literally no effort 2 things can happen:

1. that person doesnt know about this / doesn't want to use it and that person might gradually improve until that person gets better. The problem is that that person might meet the oakensoul heavy attack users and might get said that they should just switch and maybe that Person even does that seeing that it's hard to get to a point while you just could get to a high level effortlessly.

2. The person uses that ring and can immediately jump to most content. Yay, no progression (= thats what RPGs are about, isn't it?) Btw. I even hate the one tamriel and dumbed down overland content, it's exactly the same wrong direction. And I know several people who stopped playing this game exactly because of this. But the point is that even being on a higher level immediately there is literally no ceiling more, no improvements no progress, it's just a dead end. And it will get old very quick especially because there is not much variation left.

The only way to escape for that person is to jump from 2 back to 1. But I doubt that many people will ever do that, they just might stop playing and uninstall the game when they reach the point where they start to question this Playstyle.

So I still think that it's not good long term and the question still stands which direction the game will go or should go. I don't think that update 35 did any good and I think this won't do any good, too long term.

Finally in my opinion a game like ESO (were build diversity should be common and where experimenting, improvement and progress are key parts of the fun) shouldnt indirectly force a big chunk of the playerbase to use just one build and be done. It's basically removing a big part of the core game.

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

I tried this and got nowhere near 70k. Maybe just the PC (I'm on the console) but for me it just isn't possible. Because I'm on the console I can't come up with the pretty logs, but I'll try it again and at least try and take a screenshot.

I point this out because having one, two, or a dozen people who can do this isn't enough to matter. If you want something to be changed because of it then *most* people should be able to accomplish it.

It has nothing to do with console or PC, because such a build even doesn't need a rotation it is basically holding down your attack button / trigger and this will work exactly the same on both platforms.

The difference in you result might be that your build is different from that example and wasn't as optimized, you might have done something that made your build weaker compared to this. For example another race, mundus, food, CP, quality, trait, enchancement and so on. Every little bit matters.

Also it's exactly sufficient that one single case exists to falsify arguments that claim that it is only possible to get up to 70-75k max DPS just by holding down the mouse button, because this is an absolute statement.

chessalavakia_ESO · January 2023

It might benefit from a bit of tweaking.

Right now, the Empower duration on some of the items/skills runs a bit on the short side which incentivizes using Oakensoul over many of the other options.

The damage is also probably a bit high and if the damage at the top is ever actually addressed, Empower should probably take a bit of a hit.

Empower is awesome in the sense that it makes doing things easier but, as you get more hours it starts to get a bit boring at least for me. Many of the heavy attack animations just aren't that great so when it becomes a significant part of your rotation it gets old.

You also ram into the issue that it kind of makes the move to PvP from PvE a bit more disruptive.

MidniteOwl1913 · January 2023

KilianDermoth wrote: »

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

KilianDermoth wrote: »

And what will happen if those people will progress to more difficult content? Will they still not be hindered? And if they get exluded from groups that do the most difficult content will they still enjoy the game?

Well considering without the tools they won't get anywhere near that difficult content it seems a moot point.

It depends. For those that are unable or unwilling to put in more effort this might be true.

For beginners who just start and want to improve (btw. a basic concept of computer games that aren't just interactive movies) or put effort in this isn't true.

But since the ring and such builds exist and do that good for literally no effort 2 things can happen:

1. that person doesnt know about this / doesn't want to use it and that person might gradually improve until that person gets better. The problem is that that person might meet the oakensoul heavy attack users and might get said that they should just switch and maybe that Person even does that seeing that it's hard to get to a point while you just could get to a high level effortlessly.

2. The person uses that ring and can immediately jump to most content. Yay, no progression (= thats what RPGs are about, isn't it?) Btw. I even hate the one tamriel and dumbed down overland content, it's exactly the same wrong direction. And I know several people who stopped playing this game exactly because of this. But the point is that even being on a higher level immediately there is literally no ceiling more, no improvements no progress, it's just a dead end. And it will get old very quick especially because there is not much variation left.

The only way to escape for that person is to jump from 2 back to 1. But I doubt that many people will ever do that, they just might stop playing and uninstall the game when they reach the point where they start to question this Playstyle.

So I still think that it's not good long term and the question still stands which direction the game will go or should go. I don't think that update 35 did any good and I think this won't do any good, too long term.

Finally in my opinion a game like ESO (were build diversity should be common and where experimenting, improvement and progress are key parts of the fun) shouldnt indirectly force a big chunk of the playerbase to use just one build and be done. It's basically removing a big part of the core game.

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

I tried this and got nowhere near 70k. Maybe just the PC (I'm on the console) but for me it just isn't possible. Because I'm on the console I can't come up with the pretty logs, but I'll try it again and at least try and take a screenshot.

I point this out because having one, two, or a dozen people who can do this isn't enough to matter. If you want something to be changed because of it then *most* people should be able to accomplish it.

It has nothing to do with console or PC, because such a build even doesn't need a rotation it is basically holding down your attack button / trigger and this will work exactly the same on both platforms.

The difference in you result might be that your build is different from that example and wasn't as optimized, you might have done something that made your build weaker compared to this. For example another race, mundus, food, CP, quality, trait, enchancement and so on. Every little bit matters.

Also it's exactly sufficient that one single case exists to falsify arguments that claim that it is only possible to get up to 70-75k max DPS just by holding down the mouse button, because this is an absolute statement.

So it's not anyone that can reach 70k with one button, it's anyone with the right build, or skills or race? Is that right?

No, one case isn't enough to prove it false neither is one case enough to prove it true. Hence my comment about the *majority* being about to reach 70k with one button. Until that is true there is no case for change.