Empower needs a nerf

Jeejee

It should not be possible to get so much damage with so little effort as by holding down one button while also gaining unlimited resources. Abilities that actually cost resources should be the main source of damage

MidniteOwl1913

No.

After U35 I believe we have all suffered enough nerfs for a while.

If you don't like empower don't use it.

SirLeeMinion

No thanks.

Soarora

I have mixed feelings about it. It is true that heavy attack builds are too strong but if they're nerfed there would be a lot of complaining and displeasure and no easy "just use a heavy attack build" way into endgame, which not saying I agree with but I don't think the game can handle another riot. Heavy attack builds do add a new style of play but it is true that it's less effort than non heavy attack builds and thus shouldn't have the same damage and more survivability.

CGPsaint

Jeejee wrote: »

It should not be possible to get so much damage with so little effort as by holding down one button while also gaining unlimited resources. Abilities that actually cost resources should be the main source of damage

An optimized one-bar build can hit 80K on the trial dummy with the right gear/skills/rotation. An optimized two-bar build can easily hit 30K-40K higher on the trial dummy. Scale that down and we're looking at 40K vs 60K. It's not the same damage for less effort, and quite frankly if you don't like that play style then carry on with your two-bar build and for the love of the Nine, stop asking ZOS for nerfs. It literally has no bearing on your gameplay, so let it be.

Soarora wrote: »

I have mixed feelings about it. It is true that heavy attack builds are too strong but if they're nerfed there would be a lot of complaining and displeasure and no easy "just use a heavy attack build" way into endgame, which not saying I agree with but I don't think the game can handle another riot. Heavy attack builds do add a new style of play but it is true that it's less effort than non heavy attack builds and thus shouldn't have the same damage and more survivability.

Once again, it's not even remotely the same damage, and more survivability is questionable as well.

I'm assuming that when people complain about heavy attack builds, that they're referring to one-bar builds, right?

People just need to be honest say that they don't like one-bar builds. You don't like it? Don't use it. The bottom line is that one-bar builds have opened up the ability for more people to play more content, and more people playing more content is not a terrible thing for the game. Think of it is a stepping stone, and possibly the impetus that people need to learn more about the game, and ultimately transition to a standard two-bar build.

Soarora

CGPsaint wrote: »

Jeejee wrote: »

It should not be possible to get so much damage with so little effort as by holding down one button while also gaining unlimited resources. Abilities that actually cost resources should be the main source of damage

An optimized one-bar build can hit 80K on the trial dummy with the right gear/skills/rotation. An optimized two-bar build can easily hit 30K-40K higher on the trial dummy. Scale that down and we're looking at 40K vs 60K. It's not the same damage for less effort, and quite frankly if you don't like that play style then carry on with your two-bar build and for the love of the Nine, stop asking ZOS for nerfs. It literally has no bearing on your gameplay, so let it be.

Soarora wrote: »

I have mixed feelings about it. It is true that heavy attack builds are too strong but if they're nerfed there would be a lot of complaining and displeasure and no easy "just use a heavy attack build" way into endgame, which not saying I agree with but I don't think the game can handle another riot. Heavy attack builds do add a new style of play but it is true that it's less effort than non heavy attack builds and thus shouldn't have the same damage and more survivability.

Once again, it's not even remotely the same damage, and more survivability is questionable as well.

I'm assuming that when people complain about heavy attack builds, that they're referring to one-bar builds, right?

People just need to be honest say that they don't like one-bar builds. You don't like it? Don't use it. The bottom line is that one-bar builds have opened up the ability for more people to play more content, and more people playing more content is not a terrible thing for the game. Think of it is a stepping stone, and possibly the impetus that people need to learn more about the game, and ultimately transition to a standard two-bar build.

Uhhh no, it definitely is the same damage. How do I know this? I've seen 90k+ parses, I've seen people do same dps as me in-content on a HA build, I've seen several endgamers switch TO HA because its just easier with the same damage, to the point that those same players are hosting all HA trifecta runs. There's nothing wrong with having fun but objectively an easier build shouldn't have the same damage as one that is more difficult. And yes, they have more survivability, at least from what I've seen with oakensoul HA sorcs. I know this because I've seen them solo vet dlc bosses right in front of me and they just won't die. I do not care one bit if someone is using a one-bar build, but I do care that those same people rush ahead in dungeons and that people are switching to it just because it's easy. I don't think that one-bar shouldn't be viable nor do I think that ha should be obliterated, but I do think it needs to be toned down just a little bit.

endgamesmug

Im getting a little bored of the heavy attack build style i even made a 2 bar non oakensoul build on another account. But i know if i go back to light attack weaving ill just get super p'd off by barswaps and abilities not going off. Quite the conundrum for me, more nerfs i suspect will just leave less people in endgame if thats the desire.

Nihilr

The only heavy attacks that aren't fair are Resto and Lightning because they do damage even before full completion and you don't even have to maintain aim on the target after the first contact.

Other than that, OP is wrong, longer hold times for attacks is less flex room for dodge and block and sprinting out of danger. Also, if you have to interrupt that attack to do anything else, you're losing dps.

This gets overlooked everytime the tooic returns.

The_Titan_Tim

Can we get at least some utility back for PvP? They stripped the ability from that side of the game completely without a second thought.

Zodiarkslayer

Is this the monsters preservation society of Tamriel? 😅

Sorry ... 🤭

The change to "monsters only" is the single most reasonable thing ZOS has done the entire last year.

And survivability of Oakensoul HA Sorcs has to do with Sorcerer class and Oakensoul Ring, not heavy attacks.

Troodon80

Soarora wrote: »

Uhhh no, it definitely is the same damage. How do I know this? I've seen 90k+ parses, I've seen people do same dps as me in-content on a HA build, I've seen several endgamers switch TO HA because its just easier with the same damage, to the point that those same players are hosting all HA trifecta runs. There's nothing wrong with having fun but objectively an easier build shouldn't have the same damage as one that is more difficult. And yes, they have more survivability, at least from what I've seen with oakensoul HA sorcs. I know this because I've seen them solo vet dlc bosses right in front of me and they just won't die. I do not care one bit if someone is using a one-bar build, but I do care that those same people rush ahead in dungeons and that people are switching to it just because it's easy. I don't think that one-bar shouldn't be viable nor do I think that ha should be obliterated, but I do think it needs to be toned down just a little bit.

While I will agree that there are places where heavy attack builds excel (e.g. trash pulls in dungeons), "seeing" 90k+ isn't really relevant to anything. For comparison, I've seen 135k+ non-HA parses which means objectively they 100% do not do the same damage. That they do enough damage to clear content shouldn't be a problem for you.

I also know some people who have swapped. If they want something a bit easier or a bit lazier, why do I care? For years peope have complained that X class is easy because you only push X number of buttons (sorcs and templar). There are even memes around that the only relevant skill on templar is jabs/sweeps. Why are you not complaining about those as well? Just let them have fun.

The_Titan_Tim

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Is this the monsters preservation society of Tamriel? 😅

Sorry ... 🤭

The change to "monsters only" is the single most reasonable thing ZOS has done the entire last year.

And survivability of Oakensoul HA Sorcs has to do with Sorcerer class and Oakenaoul Ring, not heavy attacks.

Well yeah, obviously we can’t have an 80% increase to heavy attack damage to players, but the value never used to be 80%. The original buff it granted was a % increase in damage to your next attack, yet it’s gone on this crazy journey to becoming useless in PvP, now you have skills that were built around it, that weren’t updated with the changes, that have become useless.

sneakymitchell

Can we all agree it doesn’t matter cause this is just pve related and pve it’s not something to get worked up about than pvp cause you know being one shotted by a player isn’t fun compared to pve where you can melt a npc boss in different ways

WuffyCerulei

They frankly just need to do Major and Minor Empower with Major Empower buffing heavy attacks and Minor buffing light attacks.

WrathOfInnos

"Endgamers" are not switching to heavy attacks. The heavy attack build may not be as bad as it was previously, but it is far from competitive. Probably a good balance tbh, the reduced effort results in reduced damage, but still able to clear most non-HM content.

KlauthWarthog

Empower is the one single thing update 35 got right.

katorga

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Is this the monsters preservation society of Tamriel? 😅

Sorry ... 🤭

The change to "monsters only" is the single most reasonable thing ZOS has done the entire last year.

And survivability of Oakensoul HA Sorcs has to do with Sorcerer class and Oakenaoul Ring, not heavy attacks.

Well yeah, obviously we can’t have an 80% increase to heavy attack damage to players, but the value never used to be 80%. The original buff it granted was a % increase in damage to your next attack, yet it’s gone on this crazy journey to becoming useless in PvP, now you have skills that were built around it, that weren’t updated with the changes, that have become useless.

Oh. There is a way to still hit PVP players with full empowered PVE heavies.

For PVE, there is no reason to nerf HA builds. It really doesn't matter at all. Given how dead the raiding scene is, anything that makes PUG players more effective is necessary. To be honest if I'm farming Vateshran or one of the other arenas for the umpteenth time, I want the easiest, lowest effort build possible.

Soarora

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

"Endgamers" are not switching to heavy attacks. The heavy attack build may not be as bad as it was previously, but it is far from competitive. Probably a good balance tbh, the reduced effort results in reduced damage, but still able to clear most non-HM content.

They… are? I don’t know what to tell you, I’m seeing it with my own eyes all over the place. The “it does same damage and is easier” argument is right from someone who switched to HA.

—

Also, my argument on seeing 90k+ parses is in response to arguing they can only hit 80k. I think 80k is fine, but 90k and even 100k I just don’t think makes sense to be so easily obtainable (coming from someone who worked really hard to get those numbers…). Yeah, this is peak accessibility, like I said in my first post there will be a riot if its nerfed because HA is the easy way out.

And again, I’m glad people are having fun my problem just lies in that HA is overtaking 2-bar, particularly when it comes to dungeon PUGs where almost every dungeon 1-2 dps are HA and frequently those same DPS do not do mechanics and/or pull before tank, but do not die due to survivability. So really, nerf oakensoul survivability I suppose.

I may be in a losing battle but I will die on this hill so I will leave you all alone now, have fun, it’s a game anyways.

jecks33

as a tank that mostly do vet pledges with pugs I'll thank Zos forever to introduced Oakensoul and HA builds.

Even with (in your opinion) this overpowered buff, the average player still do very few damage. I'm in a full support build to help pugs (nazaray, turning tide, yolna) but 80% of the time it takes 40 minutes to clear Banished Cells 1 or Crypt of Hearts 1 (don't let me talk about things like City of Ash 2 or the evil dlc dungeons....).

Imagine doing vet dungeons without empower, oakensoul and the [snip] sorc builds....

[edited for minor bashing]

CGPsaint

Soarora wrote: »

Uhhh no, it definitely is the same damage. How do I know this? I've seen 90k+ parses, I've seen people do same dps as me in-content on a HA build, I've seen several endgamers switch TO HA because its just easier with the same damage, to the point that those same players are hosting all HA trifecta runs. There's nothing wrong with having fun but objectively an easier build shouldn't have the same damage as one that is more difficult. And yes, they have more survivability, at least from what I've seen with oakensoul HA sorcs. I know this because I've seen them solo vet dlc bosses right in front of me and they just won't die. I do not care one bit if someone is using a one-bar build, but I do care that those same people rush ahead in dungeons and that people are switching to it just because it's easy. I don't think that one-bar shouldn't be viable nor do I think that ha should be obliterated, but I do think it needs to be toned down just a little bit.

1.) I can push 90K on a trial dummy with a perfect rotation, but that doesn't translate to 90K in actual content.

2.) If one-bar/HA builds are pumping out the same or more damage than your standard build, then that 100% a you problem.

3.) The survivability that you're referring to is due to Critical Surge being such an amazing passive heal and really has nothing to do with a one-bar/HA build. My Sorc is easily my tankiest DPS character due to Crit Surge/Hardened Ward. That being said, I prefer to run my Warden because I'm pushing higher damage and bring more group utility/healing.

4.) Rushing ahead in dungeons is not even remotely exclusive to one-bar/HA builds.

You obviously don't like one-bar/HA builds, but from your own comments it sounds like you're placing the blame for your issues in the wrong place. Play the game the way that you want to, and if you're still having issues then I suggest you find like-minded people to play with so that you can avoid the perceived issues that are clearly triggering you.

MidniteOwl1913

I'd like to point out that the people who can pull 90k+ with the one-bar build are also likely people who can do much better with that on a two-bar build.

Personally, I don't get anywhere near 90k with my HA build. If the HA builds get nerfed just that the big nerf of U35 it's the mid to lower level players who get hurt the most.

Malmer

i liked the old empower and prefer to get them back or a change that not only HA builds have a benefit from it

Artim_X

Damage was nerfed to such an extent that heavy attack builds are now forced to use empower to get back their lost damage, so no empower is fine as is.

Troodon80

sneakymitchell wrote: »

Can we all agree it doesn’t matter cause this is just pve related and pve it’s not something to get worked up about than pvp cause you know being one shotted by a player isn’t fun compared to pve where you can melt a npc boss in different ways

I don't think it's fair or right to say that because something is PvE or PvP that it somehow doesn't matter. A lot of issues have been let through in PvP because predominantly PvE players didn't care, and vice versa.

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Can we get at least some utility back for PvP? They stripped the ability from that side of the game completely without a second thought.

They did the same with Mist Form and most people don't care that it was gutted and made completely useless (as in, using it in PvE content will kill you; the ability is useless). I doubt you'll get much traction with that request because "it was deserved." People don't like getting one-shot by someone doing a heavy attack for 40k crits.

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

I'd like to point out that the people who can pull 90k+ with the one-bar build are also likely people who can do much better with that on a two-bar build.

Personally, I don't get anywhere near 90k with my HA build. If the HA builds get nerfed just that the big nerf of U35 it's the mid to lower level players who get hurt the most.

Agree with this. I can do 98k on a trial dummy with an Oakensoul heavy attack build, and I can do ~130k with my magicka dragonknight using a "proper" rotation. It shouldn't need to be said but, like stamplar of old, while easy to reach its ceiling that ceiling is a hard cap. I'd expect a beginner to be doing around 75k. The lower end is around 80k, while the upper end is around 100k (it does require pets and it does require using them; i.e. Tormentor needs to be activated prior to 50%). If ZOS wanted to close the gap between floor and ceiling, this would actually be a good start if it was intentional. There's basically no excuse for people to be doing 5k DPS in content when all you need to do is hold down your mouse button.

El_Borracho

As someone who frequently runs vet trials, I can say there has not been a shift to heavy attack builds. And who cares what someone does on a trial dummy. Seriously.

Kalterran

The original poster seems to be suggesting that people who cannot do complex rotations (regardless of whether this is due to lack of interest, physical issues, or just plain lag) somehow do not deserve to be able to play whole parts of the game.

I can do both HA rotations and LA rotations; if you are doing LA rotations competently then the LA rotations should be getting you to about 120k on a target dummy, whereas HA rotations are more 80-90k. This is exactly the kind of difference that is appropriate, someone with good ping should not be doing twice or even more damage than someone with lag.

Since u35/36, I have really enjoyed being able to encourage numerous new people into veteran trial and arena content through heavy attack builds. As some are getting better and learning the content, some are starting to get interested and learning to improve to LA builds.

But HA builds give a raid lead an easy way to fill raids with people that can usefully do the content, and give players new to veteran trials a boost to be able to make the leap into harder content.

This is only good for the game, and if we want to have an endgame raiding community, we cannot whine about other people getting into it using easier builds "not deserving" the ability to play a game and even to help us and our community.

Cayr

Completely agree. Sorcerer Oakensoul HA builds can hit over a 100k with heavy attacks and casting no skills. You can't tell me that is not absolutely broken.

At the bare minimum, Empower should be reverted to the former 40% buff to make it even a bit balanced. It would still hit for about 60-70k DPS (assuming you use skills as well), which is more than enough to comfortably DD any veteran trials, especially since the build is so simple that you lose barely any dps while handling mechanics. It'd give new players an easy option to get into veteran content, but wouldn't be so OP as to discourage people from exploring other options.

CGPsaint

Cayr wrote: »

Completely agree. Sorcerer Oakensoul HA builds are currently hitting over a 100k with ONLY heavy attacks and casting none of your skills. You can't tell me that is not absolutely broken.

Show me your parse with a Sorc hitting 100K using zero skills. Even if there is 1 person who can hit 100K, that is not the norm. Stop trying to gatekeep content because people aren't playing the way that you want them to. It just makes you sound like an elitist and brings nothing positive to a struggling game.

rauyran

Jeejee wrote: »

It should not be possible to get so much damage with so little effort as by holding down one button while also gaining unlimited resources. Abilities that actually cost resources should be the main source of damage

Why? What are your reasons?

sharquez

If a player put the work in to get the gear to make the fully endorsed heavy attack playstyle work who are you to say they can't? They still need to do mechanics and move their feet, and if they do that better when they don't have to worry about a 10 skill rotation and are dealing adequate damage then I don't see the problem.

KilianDermoth

CGPsaint wrote: »

An optimized one-bar build can hit 80K on the trial dummy with the right gear/skills/rotation.

Wrong, an really optimized one bar build even can hit up to about 100k. Just non optimizes pure heavy attack builds hit for 80k, its the minimum they get if they dont do something totally wrong on an oakensoul one bar build.

CGPsaint wrote: »

An optimized two-bar build can easily hit 30K-40K higher on the trial dummy. Scale that down and we're looking at 40K vs 60K.

Wrong again! You cant just scale both values the same way. At least not in unoptimized situations like dungeons. The one bar build wastes some buffs on the trial which become relevant, if they arent already present in the group (like dungeons) + the two bar build will miss plenty buffs from the trial dummy that make him really strong. So in the end, both will do similar damage in unoptimized groups (like dungeons), while one takes literally no effort but the other does take plenty effort just to get to the same level. It can even happen that the one bar build, just because of the oakensoul ring alone is even stronger than a build that does 30-40k more damage on a trial dummy.

Especially if you consider that you are all time prebuffed with the ring while you have a built up time with any non oakensoul ring build. Especially in short trash fights in unoptimized groups it can even happen that the one bar build does almost twice as much damage. Again, for literally no effort.

But if you are talking about optimized groups than both would do the amount of damage they do on a trial dummy if not even more. But this cant be the case because you are explicitly talking about sacling down the damage = down to a non optimized situation.

CGPsaint wrote: »

Once again, it's not even remotely the same damage, and more survivability is questionable as well.

Wrong, its not questionable, its fact. Just look at the buffs the oakensoul ring gives.

Minor Aegis: A buff a damage dealer literally never gets without oakensoul (its usually only available on tank trial gear).
Minor Protection: A buff most damage dealer wont have, because only a few classes can get that buff without sacrificing damage, which you dont do if you really want to hit higher than someone with oakensoul.
Major Resolve: As far as I know only Sorcerer and Werewolves can get this buff without sacrificing damage. So also absolute uncommon on damage dealers and werewolf damage dealers arent that great as far as I know.

This are 3 defensive buffs non oakensoul damage dealers usually dont have and probably never have all 3 at the same time and they add definetaly some noticeable defense.

So its absolute fact that oakensoul ring wearer have a better defense than the standard non oakensoul user. Not even considering that the usual heavy attack user sets (like sergeants mail) even add extra health other damage dealers dont get. Further you literally alway can go 2 stat food with health + max ressources because you dont need sustain on a heavy attack build, too, which makes them even tankier without sacrificing any damage and without putting any more effort in.

CGPsaint wrote: »

People just need to be honest say that they don't like one-bar builds. You don't like it? Don't use it.

You could say the same argument about literally anything broken or even about cheats and it might be valid as long as it just affects ones solo play / experience but in an multiplayer game like ESO this argument is absolute invalid.

Also this ring comes very close to something like pay 2 win, because it literally enables any player to win content just by paying for high isle and get that ring, so he could do content he couldnt before and this without any effort. Solo arenas get almost a joke with those builds.

CGPsaint wrote: »

Think of it is a stepping stone, and possibly the impetus that people need to learn more about the game, and ultimately transition to a standard two-bar build.

True, but the thing is that I doubt that this will happen often in reality.

The reason is that you get a very high level damage output with 0 effort through oakensoul and such builds. The problem is, just in the moment someone will try a 2 bar build he will miserably fail (if not already a great player), because it will take not just a bit of effort someone needs to do better, you have to be among the best players (maybe the 5% best of the whole playerbase) to be better than what you get for free by using the oakensoul ring. There is no gradually improvement by switching from 1 bar oakensoul to 2 bar.

Its a giant step, a much bigger stepping stone than improvement was before. And its so giant that probablly less player will do that step ever in the future (because why should they, if its working good enough and the effort they had to put in is so crazy bigger?).

Pre oakensoul improvement was gradual, so you could directly see the benefits of your effort but this was killed with the oakensoul ring. So in reality I fear that the ring accomplishes the exact opposite. And once a player discoveres this ring there will be no further improvment for most of them.

I am really not sure how to fix it without removeing / overnerfing the whole thing, which will enrage all the players that need this ring to be good. But on the other side I dont think it will be good thing for the game if it remains this way the long term. It just kills any desire to get better if anyone can do good by using a single item. This will lead to less diversity and make 99% of other gear and builds obsolete, so it might get addressed sooner or later.

Sooner would be better for the game long term, because less player had discoverd and used it and thus less player will be enraged, further less good player probably had left because they dont see a point in playing a game which doesnt reward effort anymore.